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/diy/ - Do It Yourself


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1204614 No.1204614 [Reply] [Original]

Sup diy, I bought this old welder and the guy sold me the breaker with it. How do I attach this thing without getting electorcuted?

>> No.1204615
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1204615

>>1204614
This is the breaker inside, it's got 2 fuses. Red and black go to the fuses so I assume they go to the hot buses on my main panel, white isn't connected to any fueses so it's ground?

>> No.1204616
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1204616

The main panel, it says 150 on the main switch however the breaker says 60 amps, is this a problem?

>> No.1204621

>>1204614
Call the electric company and ask them to power down for a few hours.

>> No.1204634

>>1204616
>breakerbox is full

Thats not good, how do you plan on adding a new circuit breaker without replacing the whole box?

>> No.1204641

>>1204614
>How do I attach this thing without getting electorcuted?
you call a spark - you have no fucking clue what you are doing, none, and you will, with a fair degree of certainty, kill yourself in attempting this otherwise, the only doubt being whether from immediate electrocution, later electrocution or via house fire from you not having a fucking clue. srsly, call someone.

>> No.1204659

>>1204641
Seconded.
1) breaker box full as other anon points out.
(providing all breakers are in use)
2) old disconnect, possibly not to code given the outlet type is a 110/120 style that would fry whatever you plugged in.
I bet it was half-tapped into the old load center.

Call a sparky.

>> No.1204661

>>1204614
what kind of welder did you buy? manufacturer? model name?

>> No.1204694

>>1204641
It's diy, im trying to diy this. The question is how do I best not kill myself.
>>1204634
The guy that I bought it from had the hot wires screwed right into the buses on his main breaker box. I was wondering if i could do this too? One wire to each bus and then one to ground.
>>1204661
The welder is a lincoln. Looks like a red tombstone, forgive the irony, not sure of the model.

>> No.1204703

>>1204694
>Asking 4chan how NOT to kill yourself

Did you get lost?

>> No.1204715
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1204715

>>1204694
>screwed right into the buses on his main breaker box
And that is why you call a sparky.

The real problem you will have is that plug is not code. you can't have a 110 style socket being fed 220 even if you hang a flashing sign on it.

220V uses a NEMA 6

That fusible disconnect has problems with the insulator breaking. Though it looks good in the pic I would not reuse it.

Either way, your load center (breaker box) is fully loaded. That means you can't add more to it. It has to be upgraded. You might be lucky and some of those breakers are not in use. But you need a tandem breaker properly rated, and the proper cable Likely 10/3.

It is flatly against code to doubletap (run a second connection off the main). All connections have to be done through a properly sized breaker. And if you plan on turning this on and off you are looking for a switch-rated breaker.

>> No.1204725

>>1204715
Thank you mr.sparko, this is why I love this board. If I choose to use this Fusible disconnect, is there something that I have to consider with load center being 150 amps and the the switch thing being 60 amps?

>> No.1204733

>>1204694
>I was wondering if i could do this too?
absolutely not.
the point of a circuit breaker is to interrupt supply under a fault condition. if you connect straight to the bus then what protection do you have? is the main breaker capable of interrupting in an overcurrent situation or simply an isolator offering no protection?

basically: wire between main panel and new fuse switch problem = big bang & burned down house.

also look at the size of the wires feeding into that thing they are ffucking anemic, compare with the outgoing size wise.

white as the ground? i'm not familiar with US colour codes but white sounds neutral to me.
then again the guy had this hardwired in? so its a guaranteed deathtrap anyway no surprises.

>> No.1204739

>>1204694
> Looks like a red tombstone, forgive the irony, not sure of the model.

They literally call them "tombstone" welders, have been made since the 60s

>> No.1204755

>>1204715
>Either way, your load center (breaker box) is fully loaded. That means you can't add more to it.

You could add a sub panel. Take a couple of circuits out of the main panel. Make enough room for 2, 2 pole 60 A breakers. Feed from one of these to a new panel. Put beakers to feed the circuits you pulled out of the main panel to make room in the new sub panel. Feed from the other 2 pole 60A to the proper receptacle for the welder with the correct sized wire.

You should have an electrician do this work. Wires have to be sized correctly, grounds and neutrals connected, etc.

>> No.1204757

>>1204755
True, for some reason I didn't think of that.
If the panel is in the same visible area you could use a main lug style load center.

>> No.1204760

>>1204725
nope. breakers only protect things downstream.
Your only concern is if the whole panel pulls more than 150. if it does then *pop*. Simply put, the outlet and wire has to be rated at least as high as the breaker that protects them

>> No.1204764

>>1204614
Replace those 2 15 single handle breakers with a dual one and you'll get a slot.

Then sacrifice a single phase circuit by isolating it. Now you got 2 slots and you can put in a 60 amp feed from the panel.

Or mount the breaker/fused disconnect whatever the fuck that monstrosity is no more than 10 feet from the panel. There's a limit for it but it'll allow you to put the protection downstream of the panel but the feeder gas to be short and visible. That's if you even have a lug to bolt it to.

Third option is a pony panel or bigger panel. Your choice.

Rip off that stupid recepticle while your at it and put in a nicer one. I'm pretty sure it's a 240 recepticle but I got no love for the way it got mounted. Put in a nicer one. Ensure orientation doesn't strain the welder cord when your plugged in.

If you don't understand a word I wrote OP, call a pro and do not fuck around.

>> No.1204767

>>1204694
There are things that you DIY, and unfortunately there are things you don't. This isn't something you want to take someone's advice on, this is something you need, with 100% certainty, to know how do yourself. Your safety depends on it. You can learn to do it, it's very possible, but it's going to involve way more than asking questions on this board. You're going to have to read books, study, etc. Basically, you're going to have to learn to be a Kilowatt (Louisianan term for a sparky). If you're not into that, pay the money and get the job done professionally.

Also, since nobody else asked, what are planning on welding?

>> No.1204795

OP shut your main breaker off, pull the panel cover off and snap a few pictures, post them up here so you can get a clearer picture of the direction you should go. Lots of good advice here you just need some focus.

>> No.1204802

>>1204795
This, we need pics
You can touch the wires on the left OR the wires on the right. But dont touch both blocks at once with both hands or you might get a jolt.

>> No.1204815

>>1204802
OP here, everyones sleeping gonna have to wait till the morning. Hope the thread doesn't 404.

>> No.1204818

>>1204764
I prefer the second option. If I rewire a new recpetacle is there any one in particular I should look for? If I do mount the thing do I still have to do the whole thing with consolidating the 2 fuses into one? Lastly, if I turn off the main breaker how do I minimuze the risk of the bridges accidentally being electrified or whatever? If I wire the two buses together will that ensure that it shorts out before it fucks my shit up?

>> No.1204847

>>1204818
>>>1204764 (You)
>I prefer the second option. If I rewire a new recpetacle is there any one in particular I should look for?

Preferably a solid one that matches your welder instead of that dildo. Also you need the lugs or you're fucked like a stray dog in Chinatown.

>If I do mount the thing do I still have to do the whole thing with consolidating the 2 fuses into one?

I don't know what the fuck your talking about. You need a fuse for every hot you deliver. You want 240 you provide 2 fuses/breakers. My second option is a potentially viable solution because you have 2 fuses in the box. If the wire is short you can provide overcurrent protection downstream of the feed, off the bus of the panel, IF ITS U LIKELY TO CAUSE A FIRE. And if you have the fucking lugs which I know you didn't look for. But this rule may be superseded by local jurisdiction.

>Lastly, if I turn off the main breaker how do I minimuze the risk of the bridges accidentally being electrified or whatever?

That's what continuity checks are for before energizing the new service for commissioning.

>If I wire the two buses together will that ensure that it shorts out before it fucks my shit up?

Depends where and how you make the junction and if the breaker is operating properly. It's possible your wire will become the weaker fuse and it'll blow first if you fuck up. This is why breakers are important. You don't want the wire to be the fuse. Don't join the hots.
Honestly you sound like a total noob and should get shown by a pro - this is not a noob job. Not trying to piss you off but trying to stop you from making a big mess/fire/die etc. Also my suggestions depends upon your jurisdiction and its regulations. I'm going off general csa/nfpa.

My suggestion may not be permissible in your area. You'd have to check but I doubt it's against code. Ask any electrician in the area worth his salt. Finally, a journeyman doing the work would absolve you from negligence and liability ultimately.

>> No.1204849

>>1204847
Also to ensure a safe working environment you need to prove the hots are dead.

1)check meter on a known source
2)check the piece to be worked on
3)recheck meter on known source

Its how I mandate absence of voltage.

>> No.1204855

>>1204659
That outlet looks 240v to me. Welding outlets look very similar to standard ones, just bigger.

>> No.1204870
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1204870

>>1204802
>You can touch the wires on the left OR the wires on the right. But dont touch both blocks at once with both hands or you might get a jolt.

You are literally going to get OP killed

>> No.1204874

Electrician here. This is 100% doable.

First off, fuck the fuse box that came with the welder. It might work, but who really knows. Not worth finding out the hard way.

You're going to need the following:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Murray-40-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-MP-Circuit-Breaker-MP240/202253147 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-50-ft-8-2-Black-Stranded-CU-NM-B-Cable-28893622/205357742
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-50-Amp-Heavy-Duty-Grade-Flush-Mount-Power-Receptacle-with-4-Wire-Grounding-Black-1254-BOX/203492410 http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-Gang-20-cu-in-PVC-Old-Work-Box-B120R/202077323 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Halex-3-8-in-Non-Metallic-NM-Twin-Screw-Cable-Clamp-Connectors-5-Pack-20511/100133208

I used home depot as a reference, but I don't care where you buy the materials. You will likely want to remove one of the breakers and take it with you when you buy the 40 amp one to be sure the new one matches in the way it connects.
Assembly should be pretty straight forward. White and black wires to the breaker, then to outlet. Bare copper wire to the grounding bar in the panel, and also to the outlet.
Turn off the main power before touching anything inside the panel.

Get some shots of the inside of your panel box, and we can maybe help you gain some room for an additional circuit. That's a shit ton of breakers, and there might be a couple you could live without. Might even get lucky and find some are not wired to anything and just taking up space.

Depending on how nice you want this circuit to look, you may have to tear up some wall.

>> No.1204968

so i opened the box

>> No.1204970
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1204970

the breakers

>> No.1204979

>>1204855
It is a 240 plug. It's just a Mickey mouse one.

>> No.1204980

>>1204970
Moar. Get the rest if the box.

>> No.1205002
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1205002

moar

>> No.1205004
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1205004

moarr

>> No.1205005
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1205005

last one i took, the pic above is orineted sideways, also one of my breakers appears to be doubletapped

>> No.1205049

>>1205002
Jesus fuck that is disgusting.
What shiyhole state do you live in?

>> No.1205150
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1205150

>>1205005
And this would be a code violation.
Not even sure what's going on here but it isn't good. looks like someone installed a new branch and reused a double breaker.... It's ok to use a common neutral, and part of old construction, but that aint the way to do it.

>> No.1205181

>>1204970
is that fucking main breaker still on?
>cannot into murican fuseboxes, never seen one that didnt look like shitonnastick
OP, you fucking retard, you still gonna end up ded - I refuse to encourage you in this venture, however JFI - how far away from main fusebox is this (welder/breaker) supposed to be mounted? Coming away from your fusebox with an unfused line is never a great idea, you going a few feet, OK, you going across the house or some shit, just nope, get someone competent -
as noted, you'd need to rewire some shit/juggle fuses/sub or new panel then, no option.
>>1205150
doubling up on a fuses be a minor infraction grand scheme of things, compared to say not fucking bothering with fuses at all till you get somewhere near your 1960s welder + vintage breaker, garnished with 60A-rated chickenwire. As said, all depends on the distance from main fusebox.

>> No.1205182

There is no way to add a 240V circuit into that panel. You will need to buy a pony panel. That is a small auxiliary breaker panel. Buy an 80A pony panel, remove the AC breaker, put it in the pony panel. Replace the AC breaker with an 80A, run some 4 gauge 3 conductor from the 80A breaker to the pony panel main breaker. reconnnect your AC to the original breaker now in the pony panel. add a 40A braeker to the pony panel. run 8 gauge 2 conductor 240V (black and red not black and white) to a nema 6-50 or nema 10-50 receptacle. plug your shit in

>> No.1205202

>>1205049
New Jersey
>>1205181
Yeah, the breaker is on, I wasn't doing any work to the breakers, just taking the cover off.
>>1205182
Ok, will do

>> No.1205204

>>1205181
it is going to be mounted a few feet away from the main box, this is all in my garage.

>> No.1205228

Shits full, you need a sub panel, move 8 of those 15A circuits to a 60A sub panel, That will clear up some slots, install 2 60A breakers in your main, one for the sub panel one for your welder. You could move the 30A ones but then youll probably have to buy new 30A breakers because they wont fit. 15A are cheap.

No idea on NJ codes I'm a canuck, your on your own there.

>> No.1205231

>>1205228
Should have said 40A sub panel, that will be more than enough, if you can find a 60A panel cheaper thats fine, you can still feed it with a 40A breaker, they are more common and cheaper.

>> No.1205295

>>1205228
Nfpa 70.

Reads worse than csa. They think grounding is bonding.

>> No.1205338

Has OP died yet?

>> No.1205415

>>1205338
OP here, can confirm, am not dead

>> No.1205428

Oh my fucking god, all this bullshit for such a simple issue.

OP, do you have an electric clothes dryer?
Plug the welder into that. Its a 220v, 30amp circuit, the tombstone is only a 15 amp draw.

You can make an easy extension cord just by purchasing the plugs and some cable for home depot/lowes if the dryer is not close enough to where you want to use the welder.
No need to butcher your main panel and/or create some death trap electrical issue.

>> No.1205444

You have a few options.

I see you have a 30 amp double pole breaker. I'm going to assume that goes to a dryer. Just use that, make an extension cord like >>1205428 said.

Move some circuits. You currently have three breakers that are full slot breakers. You can get tandem breakers like most of your panel is. Howver you will need to eliminate one of those breakers entirely to have the required 2 slots.

Sub panel next to it to move some of the 15 amp breakers to it, freeing up space.

Just go full fucking redneck and wire that fucker right into the feeders bypassing a breaker except the main, hell bonus points if you put it downstream of the main breaker. Remember breakers are for pussies, who cares if your house burns down.

>> No.1205482

>>1205428
>>1205444
>Assuming the 30A breaker is a dryer and not an oven
>assuming the 30A receptacle is anywhere near a convenient spot to weld

>> No.1205483

>>1205444
Can I just double tap the 30 amp breaker and either use the dryer or the welder?

>> No.1205496

>>1205428
Wait if the tombstone is a 15 then why is the fusilated thing rated for 60 amps?

>> No.1205500

>>1205496
Welders jump up to huge amps when you strike an arc

>> No.1205513

>>1205500
In that case how will the 30 amp breaker be enough

>> No.1205576

>>1205483
Legally no.. But you can put a switch between the two loads coming off the breaker. This would force one load at a time.

>> No.1205577

>>1205513
Household breakers don't react fast to the instantaneous current.

>> No.1205623

>>1205577
This
The jump occurs fast and its just a quick blip.
You have a high enough breaker it can handle the jump without flipping the breaker.

People running welders on washer/dryer circuits have had the issue of flipping the breaker every couple of arcs.

>> No.1205638

>>1205623
Indeed. Also fun fact, residential breakers trip approximately 80% current.

>> No.1205718

>>1205444
>Just go full fucking redneck and wire that fucker right into the feeders bypassing a breaker except the main, hell bonus points if you put it downstream of the main breaker. Remember breakers are for pussies, who cares if your house burns down.
If he still wants to (or 'insists on') /diy/, thems more or less his only option, because fuse juggling/sub panel installation/etc, its not happening. The only saving grace in the matter, hes only going a few feet (allegedly) from his existing panel, so, AFTER THE MAIN BREAKER, NOT BEFORE, tap a line in your most convenient spot, and connect your welder breaker. And switch off the main breaker first, by adding lines, by removing the cover, by looking at fuse panel sideways ALWAYS switch the fucking mains off. And spend $5 on a HF voltage tester as well, if anything after the main fuse beeps flashes? do not proceed to self-cremation. And none of this is either code or particularly great idea in the first place either, but, you want it done so?, get it done.

>> No.1206061

>>1205718
ITT: everyone suggests the same thing without reading the thread.