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/diy/ - Do It Yourself

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1117765 No.1117765 [Reply] [Original]

i have a masters in electrical engineering yet its still illegal for me to install a down light.

>> No.1117767

>>1117765

I have no official qualifications and yet it's legal in quite a few places for me to do electrical work on commercial properties if it's part of my job description.

Welcome to law.

>> No.1117769

>>1117767

Are you uk based?

Here commercial literally has no qualification. The regulations simply say you must be competent. Which is a joke as its so subjective.

>> No.1117772

>>1117767
>>1117769
is there anywhere in the world where its outright illegal besides Australia?

>> No.1117773

>>1117769
>Which is a joke as its so subjective.

It's not, here everyone can install electricity but you can be held responsible of you do not comply to the norms. So instead of the person who does it, the focus lies on the way it's done. Now tell me what makes more sense. A qualified retard, or a unqualified person who complies to safe electrical standards?

>> No.1117776

>>1117769

Commiefornia.

It's apparently legal to work on my employer's property, but not legal to do the exact same work on contract.

That's my understanding, at least. But, hey, I work for an old church property, which apparently gets a pass for damn near everything, between the non-profit title and grandfathering laws. The last time I went to swap out the faulty garbage disposal, my wire cutters blew up because the switch was breaking neutral instead of hot. It took me and a licensed electrician 3 hours to figure out the wiring scheme for a single room with an electrical issue.

If I or someone else dies because of bad wiring there, 99.9% chance it isn't gonna be my fault.

>> No.1117777

My father in-law has a masters in electrical engineering and works in television production.

Top kek.

>> No.1117780

>>1117777
absolutely wasted quads. sounds like hes a pleb who went to a shit uni and woulsnt even know the difference between a resistor and a transistor unless of course you mean the production of tvs like rnd

>> No.1117786

>>1117769
>>1117773
That was quite a surprise, as the UK laws for electrical installations have always seemed rather paranoid and overprotective to me.
If there's no requirement for qualification, how are you going to prevent the unqualified retards from installing shit? Give up saying the retards will retard no matter what laws say? Or do you have qualified inspectors to prevent that?

>> No.1117794

>>1117765

Heh.. also EE, but with a Masters in ITM (IT Management)

Worked construction and actually do have a NEC (National Electrical Code) book. Most I've ever worked with was some 16KVA stuff, largest project was an office redo. But those times I was just a wire monkey. It takes a couple years of documented experience plus a killer exam to become a licensed sparky here. Computers pay more and aren't as likely to kill you.

Laws are odd where I live (Oklahoma, US). They sell all the parts at the local hardware store and small changes are "ok", but if you do any construction that requires a permit since the electrical has to be inspected. Installing a new light (where the box didn't already exist) technically requires a permit. More for homeowners insurance than anything else.

The real question is, "who would know?"

Though I have helped others fix problems created by folks that really should stick to less complex things like breakfast cereal. One used zipcord (lamp cord) to run an outlet. Those folks are why we have the laws we have.

>> No.1117805

>>1117794
What does it mean to "run an outlet"?

>> No.1117808

>>1117765
Because your not taught electrical safety rules in engineering class. You understand how electrons work but not how to keep people safe.

>> No.1117809

>>1117780
Doesn't really matter what you know about resistors or transistors when you're making triple the average salary; it's a much easier lifestyle too.

>> No.1117820

>>1117786

Literaly competence is the only thing.

If you are an unqualified retard then you will get fucked becuase you were deemed not qualified.

The hse and and others will inspect work and there are regulations for the installations themselves. There is just no official ticket to say you can do said work.

On the flip side domestic has rigorous training regimes.

>> No.1117823

>>1117805
Wire up a socket from the consumer unit

>> No.1117829

>>1117773

Your point is moot. You should have to be qualified as well as the work being satisfactory. As is the case in my industry.

Compitence is noting more than a cop out by governing bodies. You could do a job do everything by the regs but something goes tits up ( yes this can happen). You are then in a your word agaisnt thiers situation in court or tribunal. What you deemed as compitent could be different from what they do, so if they want to fuck you they will just claim you are not what thier idea of compitent is.


There was a time this would be ok. Now we live in a culture of red tape and blame culture. There is no room for grey areas.

>> No.1117836

>>1117765
I had electrical work done by an "electrician" I had to fix his work.

>> No.1117837
File: 288 KB, 600x800, 100% Ground Kek.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1117837

>>1117765
I built 3 houses, 2 barns, & 2 ponds, did all the plumbing, electrical work, pond installation, & roofing, etc, and I don't have a degree or license in anything. The only things that needed to be inspected were the septic fields, the outside of the grid-tied electrical meters, and the pond dams after they were finished. Simply because those things can fuck with other people if they are done incorrectly. All I do is DIY.

>tfw I'm actually a farmer now

That image isn't about safety. It is about unions, specifically "The Electrical Trades Union of Australia". As all unions go, they live by the broken window fallacy. Job security goes a long long way in some countries.

>> No.1117838

>>1117765
In the opposite direction Industrial electrical in the US is insane. All the plant has to have is one licensed electrician on staff and every half trained person is covered under them.
So even though I work at night doing Automation when none of those people are there I replace 480V motors and drives all the time (Locked out of course). I also trouble shoot and work on live 120 circuits all the time.
All the formal training I have is an associates degree in Automation Technology, which means I'm a glorified ladder logic monkey.

Also most electricians are house ropers who couldn't figured out how to hook up a stereo to a tv without a senior electrician showing them.

>> No.1117840

>>1117786
>That was quite a surprise, as the UK laws for electrical installations have always seemed rather paranoid and overprotective to me.

The regs are there but it's easy enough for a competent DIYer to comply with them without even having to know all of them; lots of it covers stuff like the connectors & sockets, cable sizes etc. You'd have to be an active idiot or malicious to get it wrong.

The UK did go through a phase of being full on retarded, with basically everything banned under "Part P" but they backpeddled on that with the latest regulations; there's only a handful of things a non-qualified individual can't do, now; things like replacing/installing a consumer unit, or installing a new ring circuit.

>> No.1117841

>>1117794
the thing in Australia is if you dont have a certificate to say the electricity was done by a pro it even makes selling your house impossible (literal sense)

>>1117808
i know way more than an electrician, more than just "muh electrons"

>>1117809
true i guess. ee life is a breeze. i got employed in uni starting at 100k and am on 130k now

>> No.1117842

>>1117765
>tfw live in the country and have no codes

>>1117773
This

>>1117837
This

>>1117838
>most electricians are house ropers

It's true. I worked in Home A/V for years and half of our jobs were fixing what electricians fucked up.

>> No.1117861

>>1117772
The UK. Probably some other European countries and in South America.

>> No.1117878

>>1117765
qualification is a spook....

>> No.1117930

I've been doing electrical work illegally for years and never had an issue. Just don't use your real name, dummy.

>> No.1117932

>>1117765
Is this how far the nanny state has gone? It is getting harder and harder for me not to give in to /pol/-tier conspiracies about the nwo trying to make all males effeminate and useless.

Fuck sometimes I think Miranda is real and I'm living in it.

>> No.1117933

>>1117823
>consumer unit
What a non-descriptive term.

>> No.1117934

>>1117829
>Now we live in a culture of red tape and blame culture. There is no room for grey areas.
Yeah, so how about not being part of the problem m8? Keep the DIY culture alive.

>> No.1117942

>>1117933

He means the service panel.

Although, yes "consumer unit" is incredibly vague. Which is why I prefer...you know..."service panel".

>> No.1117951

>>1117934

What are you talking about?

Thats just how it is, not how i want it to be, my entire point is that workers should be protected from the red tape culture.

you diy spirit wont stop you getting fucked over by the hse, (im taking about working in commercial premises here btw, not home diy.)

>> No.1117954

>>1117932
IKDF.

>> No.1117971

No matter who does it in my country the power company has to come by to do a thorough inspection before you are hooked up.

So it is allowed that anyone can do all their own wiring

>> No.1117978

>>1117765
I used to love Australia but more the more I read about it the more I start to despise it. Fucking regulations for everything, why can't you be more like America? Sure your past is tied with imprisonment in one way or another but fucking hell it's an huge country let people be free.

>> No.1117980

>>1117933
>>1117942
"consumer unit" is actually the official Bong description, altho, no fucker actually uses it in general terms. If I was asking a housewife (or 'non.tech' person), I'd say, 'wheres the fooken fuse box then, luv?' - altho technically wrong (as RCBs are not 'fuses'), everyone knows what it is thereby meant. And if I was asking a tech-minded person, or in a non-residential setting, id say, ' the distro' (for 'distribution panel'). And a 'service panel' would be attached to something else entirely, but, vive la difference, and metric is a vastly superior system as well.

>> No.1117987

>>1117951
Sorry i misunderstood and thought you actually wanted more regulations and qualifications for the home diy person.

Yeah commercial shit is another beast just cause of the risks and legal shkt involved.

>> No.1118024

>>1117769
Fine in theory but unless you pay out to do your c&g or some shit nobody is going to hire you and no trade body will be interested unless you jump through their hoops.

>>1117773
Trouble is law and order are retroactive, you can do what you want until it kills someone. Even then you just say it was like that when you bought the house or whatever add don't know who did it. Kind of pointless.

>>1117777
EE ain't what it used to be, anything fun can be done in software now which is boring. Doesn't matter if it doesn't work and crashes because Indian code monkeys work for peanuts.

>>1117840
It's been a while but I'm pretty sure you can do anything you want, as long as you get it certified by the local authority, pay some chump to come and inspect and check your calculations and testing results. That's the only real difference between a spark and a pleb, a piece of paper from the LA saying he can self certify the install as shiny.

>>1117980
Fuse box was pretty good. CU is shit but everyone I know uses it. Popularised when all the cowboys went offering upgrades with old sale stock from the sheds. Ohnono ma'am, fuse boxes are to be illegal soon you must upgrade to this shiny new consumer unit.

Service panel? How the fuck is that any better? It's not. Its British people who are supposed to defend ideas and opinions they don't care about, not you yanks.

>> No.1118037

>>1117765
I need someone to wire a grow room for me but can't just call an electrician.

>> No.1118052

>>1117978
its not actually huge, most foreigners think that. only 1/7th or so is comfortably inhabitable.

>> No.1118055

>>1118037
"Why not, it's not like you can discuss drugs in this forum, so why would an electrician care about your tomato plants?"

In my jurisdiction, you can wire stuff yourself in your own home with the later approval My recommendation for someone doing such a project in such a jurisdiction would be to learn the codes, buy the proper-sized wire and receptacles for your appliances, don't overload your circuit breakers or panel (buy new ones if you need to, of the proper amperage) and have everything done neatly, don't cut corners (literally, have it at 90 degree angles instead of just running directly), *stapled*. If you're surface-mounting in a "finished" location, have the proper armoured cable or conduit for the job. Don't cheap out. Also have a good set of wire strippers, they help (Kleins in America).

(This is not official advice, do everything at your own risk, I bear no responsibilities for your actions, etc.)

>> No.1118076

>>1118055
>amperage
a.k.a current.
You don't say 'secondsage' for time, or 'miles per hourage' instead of speed so why the fuck does this generation seem fucking insistent on saying amperage. Voltage is a kind of short for potential difference you can't claim the same for amperage it sound fucking retarded.

It doesn't technically matter if your wires are sizes for your appliances as long as your breakers are sized for your wires.

You don't need armoured cable on walls because its visible nobody is going to accidentally puncture it. All you need probably is the right insulation class, normal house wires have insulation and over sheath which makes two layers of insulation. You don't need conduit or trunking which if anything will introduce derating factors.

Knife is probably much more useful for stripping wires than any specific tool. Those auto strippers are sexy as fuck until they stop working properly. Roundy hole gauge strippers are shite for oval solid core t&e/romex/etc

>> No.1118079

>>1118052
Even if that's the case, it's still more than 1 million square kilometers of land for 20M population. The state needs to go fuck itself and stop babysitting its citizens.

>> No.1118089

>>1118076
- I wanted to make it very clear that it's the amps that this mongoloid has to look for.

- I don't care what's technically fine, I was talking about what passes inspection.

- Again, I don't care what's technically fine for nigger-rigging your shit, I'm well aware that NMD wire is strong enough by itself, I'm talking about codes and keeping shit kosher if he moves out (even if it obviously looks like a grow-op, he's not "endangering lives")

- I agree on the knife, get a nice ratcheting OLFA. But auto-strippers are trash-tier and break. Perhaps you're not using the round-hole ones correctly? The good ones are magnificent, you just can't use them to pull on the jacket when you've made the cut.

>> No.1118099

>>1118076
>>1118089

When I'm in EE mode, I say "current".

When I'm in sparky mode, it's amperage, because everything else in that field is duplo-tier :^)

>> No.1118129

>>1118079
26 mill, but yeah i get your point. regs are bs

>>1118089
not him but in aus there is no inspection, theres certificates of legitimacy or nothing

>> No.1118130

>>1117765
in germany if you have a bachelor in electrical engineering you are already a "Elektrofachkraft" (electrical expert) and actually legal could do most kind of work in the electrical field. if they should is another question.

>> No.1118131

>>1118129
Obviously he wouldn't even have it inspected if he's hiding it, but it should be up to an inspect-able standard.

Again, I don't advocate for any of this.

>> No.1118133

my father is a master electrician and im not even a journeyman but i work with soaking wet 220. its not hard if you are not retarded

>> No.1118259

>>1117765
it's only ilegal if you die doing it. So...

>> No.1118260

>>1117765
sux to be u fggt

>> No.1118272

I go to tradeschool with a bunch of electricians, the first year us electronics guys, the automation guys, and the sparkies have the same subjects.

mostly they don't know shit.
we spent a good few weeks covering fucking ohms law. (that they had i school before they got to be electricians)
you could hear the collective mind blow when the teacher started to explain what a transistor is.

before this I was an 'uncertified' maritime ship technician for about 6 years.

its funny when you get to travel to some country and fix something that is so urgent that fucking poor-ass shipping companies are willing pay norwegians to fix whatever is wrong,
but I cant wire up a socket or fuse without breaking the law.

its not even remotely difficult.
no math, no soldering.
just tables and a booklet of rules and restrictions.

I think the unions are to blame for this shit.
Sure there are idiots that will die or cause the odd fire, but that's darwin at work.
why should other peoples stupidity affect me?

>> No.1118278

>>1117765

>masters in electrical engineering
>most likely can't even take the cover plate off an outlet
>has never done anything with electricity that wasn't in a classroom
>thinks he's qualified to do an electricians job

Millennials

>> No.1118288

>>1118272
legit this, i know electricians who were retards in high school who told me about what they learn and its really not that much

>>1118278
i dont get people like you, ee is way more hands on than youre thinking. electrician works is basics with ohs integrated (i had to do ohs anyway)

>> No.1118291

>>1118278
/sci/ is over there bro

>> No.1118298

>>1118278
>defending electricians by claiming anyone above are ivory tower nerds.

electricians have the narrowest knowledge of electronics.
they put up switches and lampsockets for a living.

even general electronics terms like impedance and inrush current will confuse them, even if they are very much related to the work they do.

"how could the 1kw psu possibly trip the fuse"
"FUCKING INRUSH YOU IDIOT"

>> No.1118299

>>1118288
>i dont get people like you


>muh apprenticeship
>muh trade
>muh "aint goin to no college and havin no debt"

which in tern equals

>muh millennials with their dumb degrees
Even though he has literally no clue about any EE work

>> No.1118305

>>1118278
>he thinks using a screwdriver is a skill even worth mentioning
>he thinks memorizing NEC rules is somehow difficult
>he thinks EEs don't work with circuits on side projects

>> No.1118325

>>1117808
>EE's aren't taught how to keep people safe

I guess electricians design mains powered medical equipment now.

>> No.1118340

>>1118089
I think you might be confused by the word technically. Technically fine means it is up to code even if its stupid and pointless. Breakers protect cables that is their only job. Ok humans too at a push.

If your regulations don't allow exposed clipped direct wire then I feel bad for you.

>>1118298
What country is this?
I know more than a few electricians and they all know their shit. I'm ashamed that there are people I went to school with I looked down on for going to trade school and based on how they did at school I thought wouldn't get far but know this shit like the back of their hands and could easily school me on the basics.
If I could jump ship I would, ee is fucking boring as shit. Why actually make anything when you can just buy in ots parts and get an Indian to shit out some diarrhoea code for it. If being a spark is Lego blocks then ee has become fucking Duplo.

>> No.1118364

I do hotel maintenance and we replace fixtures, pull cable, wire up motors and transformers all the time as well as various plumbing, machine repair, decorating, HVAC, demolition, masonry, drywall, carpentry, man, just everything.

We contract an electrical company to help take up some slack as we are fitting a new wing and now two years later we are still finding problems. Everything from plug contact screws been driven into insulation rather than conductor all the way up to 220v coming out of a 110v line and 110v coming out of a 220v line. Mounting screws driven through cable and everything.

Fucking disaster

>> No.1118421

>>1118076
Amperage.

>> No.1118425

This is why I chose the electrician master race

>> No.1118431
File: 80 KB, 871x811, b does electrical.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1118431

I'll just leave this here.

>> No.1118505

>>1118421
You are only embarrassing yourself anon.

>> No.1118527

>>1118421
ampere is a unit, not the phenomenon the unit measures (which is current)

a resistor has resistance, not ohmage
there is no faradage or henryage either.
siemensage? nope

'voltage' is silly this way, it used to be tension.
i dont know why english ended up with voltage.

in norwegian its 'spenning', which roughly translates to tension or excitation.

>> No.1118544

>>1118024
>I'm pretty sure you can do anything you want

No. Certain things are specified under Part P of the regulations, and you require a qualification or "Part P Certificate" to prove you're competent before you can do them. IN THEORY you can do Part P stuff yourself IF you can find someone who is qualified to inspect & sign off on it, but very few commercial sparks will do it because it's their ass on the line. If you have a mate who's qualified then yeah, you might be okay.

>> No.1118546

>>1117861
>The UK
>outright illegal to install your own electrics

Nope. Not even close.

>> No.1118549

>>1118527
>ampere is a unit

Amperes per. hour.

>> No.1118555

Got straight A's in electrical engineering, and my country's grading system is almost asian, at least at the good schools. I still can't touch anything attached to the house, only stand-alone appliances. I say fuck that, and been replacing/repairing shit for the last 15 years. Usually, I tidy up the shitty rats nest that the 'trician left, other times I remove fire hazards that clearly were the result of someone hung over af on the job..

>> No.1118564

>>1118527
>>1118549

You're thinking of Amp-Hours. AH.
An Ampere is the measure of Coulombs (a specific number of electrons) flowing through the circuit per second.

"Amperage" is a generally accepted term in English used to denote current.
"Ampacity" is a generally accepted term in English for the current capacity of a particular circuit element.

Both of these terms are widely used in EE and electricians work worldwide.

While not formally correct to the SI rules, nitpicking this hard over the "correct" usage, even though these terms have been used for hundreds of years without issue, is just autistic to say the least.

It would be the same type of autism that will relentlessly bitch about the terms "drill" and "drillbit" being used instead of "drill" and "motor" even though both terms are correct.

>> No.1118565

>>1118527
heh, here in SR we call it tension [napätie] as well. I never stopped to think why is it Voltage in english..

>> No.1118569

>>1118565
>>1118527
>>1118505
Potential.

>> No.1118592

>>1118564
> both these terms are used worldwide
Interesting view of the English speaking world
> autistic
Go tell Horowitz& Hill they are autistic you prick. Most folk manage to wank themselves dry over AoE without having read it.

>>1118544
My understanding was that anyone could submit plans to LABC for approval for an appropriate fee. The guy from LABC acts as the qualified overseer instead of the spark. Then again all of my experience is north of the wall where although part p is out of jurisdiction there is an essentially identical system however the LA outlines what work is notifiable based on the job and type of building. You can do basically anything in a two story house, you can't do much as change a socket in a flat without some notification. In theory each local authority can set their own rules but in practice I don't think any of them are different.

>> No.1118599

>>1118564
>You're thinking of Amp-Hours. AH.

Amperes per. square inch.

>> No.1118602

>>1118592
Oh yeah there are certain jobs that are notifiable to building control, on top of requiring Part P certification.

This is why anything under Part P is a minefield; it's generally easy to assume that if it's a thing covered by Part P, you can't do it yourself.

>> No.1118614

>>1118565
Because SI faggotry means a person's name is given to a concept, rather than a name descriptive of said concept.

>> No.1118638

>>1117777
Electrical Engineering has literally nothing to do with Electrician work.

>> No.1118661

>>1118602
>you can't do it yourself.
sure in theory.
in practice you can do whatever you want and then simply lie about it. it was like that when we bought the house, i got an electrician to do turns out he was a cowboy etc etc. like pretty much every rule and reg made now its completely pointless does nothing to combat any problem at all and only serves to let policy makers pat themselves on the back while joe public is left confused and allow shady people to take advantage.

>>1118638
i hope you are joking, the fundamentals are shared. any EE should be able to adapt themselves if given a copy of relevant regulations. sadly it used to be that the practical experience was lacking. now it seems the knowledge and understanding of basic concepts is gone too. what the fuck are kids learning at school now anyway?

>> No.1118665

>>1117765
While you can be a god at drawing schematics it doesn't necessarily mean that you are good at being en electrician.

>> No.1118704

>>1117765
It's not illegal, but you might get fucked by your insurance company if you mess something up.

>> No.1118709

>>1118704
The insurance company will find something to fuck you over.
If for some reason they dont, theyll just destroy your rates for the next 20 years.

>> No.1118716
File: 1.76 MB, 412x229, right.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1118716

I love when trade threads happen, you get all the retards who claim they "had to fix what the plumber/electrician did".

Fucking kek.

So OP if I'm an electrician do I automatically know how do do your EE work?

>> No.1118717

>>1118564
>You're thinking of Amp-Hours. AH.
no, what gave you that idea?
i said current, not current capacity.

>An Ampere is the measure of Coulombs (a specific number of electrons) flowing through the circuit per second.
yes i know.

>"Amperage" is a generally accepted term in English used to denote current.
>"Ampacity" is a generally accepted term in English for the current capacity of a particular circuit element.

well as a non-american let me just tell you that it sounds hella stupid.
I'm not a native english speaker, but i get by fine.
at my old job i had to communicate with all sorts of crews and techs from other countries, never have I heard these terms.

i think its an american thing...
can any brits weigh in here?

>> No.1118722

>>1118527
>tension
I'd imagine because lots of shit on the pole need to actually be tensioned, eg under mechanical stress.

>> No.1118725

>>1118717
West coast here.

It's just 'amps' in pretty much all contexts. Even when talking about wire, like '20 amp wire' if you're not saying gauge directly.

'voltage' is usually reserved for 'high/low voltage'. If I am measuring something or relaying it someone it's just 'X volts AC/DC'

>> No.1118737

>>1118421
>>1118505
Lol that wasn't even me

>> No.1118739

>>1118725
ok, you are an electrician?
if so, that just makes sense.
you work with general current capacity of cables and fuses.


however, if some other electronics guy started using teams like bias amperage instead of bias current, i would not take him seriously.

these are me on the whole amperage/current thing.
I'm not an electrician, i guess terms change from field to field.
>>1118527
>>1118717

though we did make jokes about getting offended when people assumed we were electricians.

>> No.1118752

>>1118272
Gikk du på Ladejarlen?

t. Norwegian

>> No.1118754

>>1118752
>trondheim
lel

>> No.1118755

>>1118754
Trondheim er verdens navle vet du.

>> No.1118772

>>1118421
>>1118569
Gods speed anon

>> No.1118784

>>1117765
I love how code here says shit like "in a professional workmanship fashion" so that the inspector can just do whatever the fuck they want based on their subjective viewpoints on what looks good. And of course if there's ever court or fines involved, something as simple as replacing an outlet would be judged as not "in a professional workmanship manner", that they'd make up by saying the wires didn't fold right into the box, you were supposed to add pigtails, stab fittings are no longer allowed, nuts and electrical tape must be used together, or the cover plate wasn't level.

>> No.1119314

Engineers and tradesmen are completely different jobs. An electrician does not need to know vector calculus, but an EE should. And EE does not need to know rigging and hand signals, but an electrician absolutely should.

I'm a union electrician. I firmly believe too much electrical theory is taught in our apprenticeship. Everything beyond DC theory should be optional. I do employ theory when working with motors, controls, and troubleshooting. However, I do these tasks alone. When working with others, I am rigging, operating telescoping lifts, bending and installing pipe, mounting equipment, etc.. I need my coworkers to know hand signals, how to tie knots, to have good working knowledge of fasteners, to be able to use power tools well, etc.. Beyond that, I need as many tradespeople in my industry to know codes and standards and how to apply them, how to install conductors and make splices, and have good habits in designing circuits. Their knowledge of electrical theory is largely irrelevant.

You can work on your own property all you want, but don't kid yourself and think you can start contracting and doing construction work just because you have a degree.

>> No.1119461

>>1117777
fuck I need a EE degree

they aren't kidding about it opening the doors everywhere

>> No.1119468

>>1119314
What about more basic AC stuff, regarding phases, frequency, voltage?
If someone has equipment malfunctioning due to voltage or duty cycle, you'd need to know enough to find out the utility transformer is bad if that were the case, voltage sag from aerials, or that the company was screwing with the frequency to save power but abuse the customer.

Detecting noise on the line, safely bonding phases if someone is using data over power wiring, figuring out that a starting cap that shorts when fully charged causes sag in the building or unbalances enough to put current on the neutral
Obscure shit like that needs more than knowing code on running wire and installing boxes.

Hell, with gfci and afci things, on demand power generators, solar tie-ins, solid state dimmers, things are getting a bit more complex than the basic knowledge from 50 years ago.
Knowing to find out that there are 2 levels of earth ground in a house because of someone grounding equipment to a water line thinking it's doubly safe because it's double grounded, or equipment generally screwing with the levels and tripping those gadgets from sensing weird power

or people blaming the wiring because equipment repeatedly getting fried due to an antenna or coax being grounded independently without bond and current going from one earth ground to the other via the device.

Pipes corroding in the yard due to AC leakage through a water line
Remember the pic of the glowing gas supply on a water heater?
Yeah, I'd like to have someone that can figure that kind of thing out quickly

>> No.1119475

>>1119314
pretty much explains what is wrong with the US electrical wise and why there is so much scary shit. cost other places expect an electrician to design and test an installation as well as the actual install. If you don't understand the basic principles then you can't do this with any rigour.

>> No.1119486

>>1117765
My neighbor has the same degree and couldn't fix shit when I asked for help. He did a half added job and made up excuses for it. After a while, I stopped asking

>> No.1119488

>>1119468
Like I said in my post, these can be optional courses one can take as a journeyman. The tasks your post describes are what a service electrician does: a small subset of the population of electrical workers.

>>1119475
The designing, testing, installation, and configuration of electrical systems is frequently done not only by different electricians, but by different contractors.

Electricians specialize. In most places this is how you do well as an electrical worker: narrowing to a specific set of knowledge and skills and doing that same form of work your entire career.

It's far more crucial that EVERY electrician knows the trade side more than the theory side: how to properly select and set anchors, how to make splices, firestopping, welding, etc..

>> No.1119494

>>1119488
>but by different contractors.
thats fucking crazy
you can't sign off on something you didn't do.
>i designed it, its designed properly but i can't guarantee its installed properly
>i installed it but have no idea if its suitable or not. i didn't just use whatever was in the van....
>i tested it. i don't know how it was designed or installed so i based the tests on the original spec instead of what was actually there
what a clusterfuck

>> No.1119505

>>1119494
That's how it is. A while back I was on a construction project at a state college and it was exactly like this, even with the fire alarm system. Two different contractors ran conduit and installed boxes, panels, and devices. I believe one was in charge of smoke heads, AVs, and pull stations while the other was in charge of damper controls, duct sensors, and VAVs. A third came in to test and wire everything.

If there are issues they the service division of any of the above, or a completely different contractor, or even their maintenance electricians.

>> No.1119507

>>1118661
>in practice you can do whatever you want and then simply lie about it

Well of course. We're talking about legality, not practicality.

Obviously I wouldn't personally perform Part P or notifiable work myself. Certainly not. Mmm hmm, no sir. *cough*

>> No.1119508

>>1117772

Germany as well

>> No.1119953

>>1118717
>no, what gave you that idea?
>i said current, not current capacity.
If you read the other post I was replying to, you'd know that that wasn't directed at you.

It sounds stupid, but the origin of most any use-standardized term is.

Look into the reason Americans say Aluminum, even though that IS incorrect. It's because Mariam Webster felt "word reform" was a good thing.

>> No.1119971
File: 136 KB, 400x400, darksouls gravelord real fuckin nito neato.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1119971

>>1119953
>Look into the reason Americans say Aluminum, even though that IS incorrect

It is the official American spelling and pronunciation. It is not "incorrect".

The form of language is dictated by those who speak it. It's only wrong if the significant majority say it's wrong. Within the region, they don't, so it isn't.

If you're subscribing to the stupid "it came first, therefore it's correct" logic, then you should be writing it as "alumium", as it was first named by the guy who discovered it, and subsequently created the aluminum/aluminium mess. IUPAC and the American Chemical Society both officially recognize "aluminum" as a legitimate spelling. It's one thing to have a slang term in a niche area that you won't find a proper definition for in a dictionary, it's another for a word variant to be officially listed as valid. "Aluminum" is the latter, not the former.


It's "Merriam-Webster", by the way. You fucking pedant.

>> No.1120062

How come old tutorials are more to the point than the never shit?

I feel like they actually knew their target audience and how to make a guide suitable for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIT4ra6Mo0s&

>> No.1120083

>>1117765
Canada here.
Here you need to complete a 5-ish year apprenticeship to become an electrician and additional training to become 'master' level. Despite that, in your own home anyone can do whatever they want. However, they can still get fucked if they choose to not do it to code. Here, being an electrician is mostly about knowing your code.

I work for an american company that just decided to get into hiring maintenance techs in canada and they are finding out the hard way how much more stringent the laws are here. In the US it seems anyone can do whatever. Here you need a license for everything when it comes to a commercial property. You can't even be asked by your employer to do work in another trades scope. My company is now trying to find loopholes to get away with certain things and getting a bunch of extra training they say we are allowed to change 120V electrical fixtures with the exact replacement, brand and model. So if i want to change a light switch I have to get the exact matching replacement, not just the cheapest at HD.

I do all my own work in my own house but id rather stick to my training when it comes to employment. I can do just about everything but I cant do it all at a professional level and thats where the difference lies.

>> No.1120267

>>1119971
Actually, scientifically speaking, it is incorrect.
Every major scientific organization, such as the IUPAC, agree that the correct spelling is Aluminium.

That's beside the point, which you missed entirely anyways.
The point was that even though It's considered "wrong" in many ways, because it has become such a standardized term it is actually still correct, because it is used so often and is also understood pretty much everywhere that speaks English. Thus, "amperage" and "ampacity" are not ambiguous and ridiculous as others in this thread imply.

Either you're a fucking autist who only read half of my two posts, or you're grasping at fucking straws.

>> No.1120272

>>1120267
Alum

>> No.1120291

>>1118024
So what's it like to be an EE now a days? Still in college for EE and haven't reallly gotten a clear answer of what work life is like. I get that its pretty circumstantial but in general.

>> No.1120301

>>1118037
You need an illegal facilitator, in this case an electrician who's prepared to work on a criminal enterprise.

The job isn't just to wire up your lights. You also have to pull electricity off the line, before your counter. Because if your electricity bill jumps suddenly you can bet your last dollar the cops are going to show up.

>> No.1120303

The times I've had electricians at my house, I've always watched them work. I probably know far more about electricity then they do (trained in automation). They, however, know how to work with a live service panel without killing themselves or damaging their tools. They have procedures they follow and have practiced. Nothing amazingly complicated, but also not something you'll learn just by reading a circuit diagram or the electrical code.

>> No.1120307

>>1117765
> that screwdriver
> that smoke
> that soot
This whole image proves, indisputably proves, that the "fully qualified electrician" saw neither short-circuit nor someone being electrocuted.
How could I trust "fully qualified electrician" who is so puffed up and so rooky that displays both of it in an advertising campaign?

>> No.1120562
File: 129 KB, 1201x563, Uten navn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1120562

These things seems easy to misuse.

>> No.1120563

>>1120562
I believe they are mainly used when working with automobiles.

>> No.1120707

>>1120562
the car company here banned them 30y ago because some cars burned down

>> No.1120728

>>1120307

actually it proves your an autist.

this image is designed to scare people who know nothing about electricity, it needs to be visually shocking and that's about it. it also would have been made by a graphical designer not a frigging electrician so i don't really understand how you decided it reflects on them.

sorry to say but they are not catering to the special snowflake on /diy/ who thinks he is clever for knowing what short circuit damage looks like.

>> No.1120744

>>1117765
How the fuck do you get electrocuted through a plastic handle?

>> No.1120758
File: 465 KB, 852x619, Save.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1120758

should have used an Isolated Screwdriver

>> No.1120848

>>1119505
That just sounds woefully inefficient. Why is it like this?
What happens when the fire suppression system doesn't work because of a miscommunication? Do people just point fingers at each other over a pile of burnt bodies?
I hope there's something I'm not getting.

>> No.1121785

>>1118565
I only know tension in this context for EHT (extra high tension) systems

>> No.1121838

>>1117765
I rewired half of my shitty trailer house. Learned from redneck Dad and YouTube. If I burn down it was worth it.

>> No.1121853

>>1120848
>Do people just point fingers at each other over a pile of burnt bodies?

Welcome to the corporate world of blame culture.

That is exactly what happens.


>I hope there's something I'm not getting.

No, that sums it up pretty good.

Companies cheap out (or, worse, "just do what they've always done/been told"), shit goes wrong, everyone blames everyone else for the clusterfuck that led up to the Happening, maybe someone(s) get sued. 99% chance nothing changes afterward.

>> No.1121876

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4f8byztdws

Watch this if you want to cringe.

>> No.1122113

>>1120744
thumb on the metal? you can get electrocuted through wood even

>> No.1122125

>>1117765
How can you be bad at electrical safety? It's the easiest risk to mitigate by far.

>LOTO, single key
>Test dead, check meter

You can go licking bus bars all day if you do literally just those 2 steps.

>> No.1122154

>>1117769

How would you have it? make it so everyone needs a license to do a bit of DIY electric work? I am not a qualified electrician but I learnt as I went along, I can run cables, install light fittings, plug sockets, extractor fans, hobs / cookers, change consumer unit fuses. by no means am i an electrician but if there was stricter regulations in place i wouldn't have even had the opportunity I did have to learn freely and at my own pace.

>> No.1122191

>>1117765
yes but I learnt retarded things in engineering. like calculating the right pipe to install for a given head loss using bernoulli when the correct way is to check the manufacturers guide tables and council bylaws because that's the correct way to do it. many factors are involved like failure tollerances, bend radius, correct depth and spacing because idiot plumbers and electricians need to be able to just know they can dig to 300mm anywhere they are and not hit a water main.

>> No.1122287

>>1117773
It's a good point, you need real life experiences to have safe procedures built into your modus operandi.

>> No.1122290

>>1122125
Double that. Deal with water is much more difficult due to need to maintain tightness and avoid leaks