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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/diy/ - Do It Yourself


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1072702 No.1072702 [Reply] [Original]

https://youtu.be/865OqMzp1Zw?t=250
>turn on machine
>115 million watts

How is it possible to power these machines?
Do they have a power plant on site to feed these furnaces?
How can the local power utility divert resources to the furnace on demand like this?
What do the power cables to a steel factory look like?

>> No.1072704

bump

>> No.1072707

They have dedicated industrial lines from the plants sized correctly, no mystery to it.

>> No.1072708

Also power cables aren't as big as you think they would be, industrial lines are typically 214kV or even higher

>> No.1072710

>>1072708
Higher voltage=smaller cable to deliver more power

>> No.1072712

They often pay extra to have priority on power so if the power starts to brown out or gets damaged they still have an uninterrupted line to keep them forges hot

>> No.1072741

>>1072702
For large pours they turn off sections of city power and do the pour at night.

>> No.1072820
File: 229 KB, 500x358, 201601131930339881322.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1072820

>>1072702
like mentioned they have often own high power line or even a own powerplant(mostly its the nearest powerplant you find). its not like you buid a furnace and then you solve how to power it and not like you hock up the oven directli to the line

>> No.1074341

>>1072702
My godfather worked at a steed plant that recycled scrap.
Before he retired last year I visited the plant, drove 600km just to see it, he was just going to retire.
They use also these carbon rods to melt the steel, using "only" 50MW. The melting process was VIOLENT! The noise was deafening as they put the watts in use!

At some point a couple years ago they had an accident where a crucible broke and 70 tonnes of molten steel landed on the floor. Nobody was luckily hurt.
It was a cool place to visit. They pour the steel in a long tube and it constantly flows downward, pudhing out a red hot beam of red hot steel that is molten still on the inside. The tube it flows in is a copper tube, water cooled so that it doesn't melt.
the beams were rolled and when they moved one could feel the intense heat from ten meters away. Sadly I wasn't allowed to take pictures :(

>> No.1074419

>>1074341
cool story bro

> 70 tonnes of molten steel landed on the floor
I pity the guy who had to clean that up.

>> No.1074435
File: 3.55 MB, 600x444, 1476744034409.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1074435

hippies and ignorant liberals want to run this off of solar and wind

>> No.1074442

>>1074341
there are few things as mesmerizing as steel production. When they add additives (silicium, chrome, vanadium and whatnot) to the molten steel it looks like a second sun for a moment. The heat is so intense that you can feel it across the huge hall. In the ceiling there are huge airducts sucking a few dozen cubic metres of toxic fumes away from the kettle per second.

Advice for everyone, if you ever get the chance to visit a steel producer, take it.

>> No.1074471

>>1074435
>hippies and ignorant liberals want to run this off of solar and wind

and you seem to grossly underestimate how much power can be created by both. Denmark for instance has managed to produce its entire national power output by wind, 4.8 Gigawatts ( 4,800 million watts)

the land area of spain would be sufficient for solar power to power the entire planet.

>> No.1074484

>>1074471
>area of spain hurr durr solar roads
You do realize spain is 505 990 km2? Equaling to 505 990 000 000 m2.

Assume future solar panels would cost as little as 1$/sqm. 505 fucking billion.

Current costs of solar panels 10-100 will result to few measly trillions. No biggie.

>> No.1074486
File: 301 KB, 2560x1440, forging.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1074486

>>1072702
When you get to that level you no longer just use cable. You literally use solid bars of copper to route enough power. Look up "buss bars".

But yes, that is why you have a grid tied system in order to take the power fluctuations. Basically, all the powerplants in a given area pool their power production and ramp up and down as demand moves.

You have base load plan]ts like nuclear reactors and coal plants and "peakers" which can be just about any power source. The grid has to regulate how much power everything is contributing. But the cheapest sources are your primaries which are usually coal and nuclear.

I mean, I'm surprised what I can do with very little electricity to be honest. I can melt pretty much any quantity of metal up to 1150 degrees centigrade in a homemade electric foundry.

The question expands more to volume. You could melt 100 tons of steel with 2 kilowatts, eventually given the right circumstances. But when you want 100 tons of steel melted in an hour, you have to increase the power requirement exponentially.

One of the best processes is electric arc foundries. Next best I would say are induction. However, other established mills still use old technology because of the costs associated with retooling a plant of that scale and though they are less power efficient, they are more cost competitive because they have most of their capital assets long paid off.

>> No.1074507

>>1074484
Kill yourself my man

>> No.1074509

>>1072702
>https://youtu.be/865OqMzp1Zw?t=250
>montly electric bill is about 7 to 8 million dollars
holy shit

>> No.1074510

>>1074484
>few measly trillions. No biggie.
We are talking about the global power consumption here. Wikipedia says it was estimated to be 3.89E20 joules in 2013. This is equivalent to 66 billion barrels of oil, which costs at the current rate around $3.4 trillion. So yeah, considering the panels work longer than one year, few trillions don't sound that bad.

This isn't to say that coal won't be cheaper, but OMG TRILLIONS isn't really an argument.

>> No.1075754

>>1074471
>4.8GW
The Nuke Plant in Palo Verde produces 4GW by itself

stay mad hippy

>> No.1075755

>>1072702
1.21 nigga wuts.

>> No.1075783

>>1074471
That happens about once a year when we get perfect wind. The rest of the time we supplement with coal and nuclear from neighbours

>> No.1075848

>>1072712
>They often pay extra to have priority on power so if the power starts to brown out or gets damaged they still have an uninterrupted line to keep them forges hot
Astoundingly enough, in some circumstances in the US,,,,, they don't pay more per kwh than you do, they pay less....

The logic goes that since they are providing jobs to the area they are located in, then the power company gets a tax break to help offset the cost of providing service.
The power company keeps most of that discount for themselves, but passes a bit on to the mill in the form of a volume discount,,,,, for using such huge amounts of power.

Power doesn't really get any cheaper the more of it that is produced, but that's how business/politics works anyway.

>> No.1075866

>>1075848

>power doesnt really get that much cheaper the more it is produced.

Electricity is also effected by economies of scale.

A large power plant will have less man hours per kwh than some dude with a 3 phase generator to his work shop.

Also the source is important too. My 150kwh diesel generator consumes more fuel per kwh than the power companies 5mw generator.

>> No.1075894

>>1075754
I just got done working at Palo last week. They're were originally gonna have 8 units. Was a pity they were only able to build 3

>> No.1075904

>>1072702
I asked when I visited the steel plant how they control the quality of the steel. My godfather told me that they just dump in more scrap in the it if the quality isn't right. So much for fine tuning. The raw material is scrap so you get what you get, they could add some shit to it but the basics was just to put in more if there is too much of some wrong additive, to dilute it.
They put the 70 ton crucible in a vacuum to remove the wrong gasses and then they add the right ones, can't really remember what was bad for the process, although he told me. I work as a diver and am familiar with partial pressures and it was kind of revealing that a liquid is a liquid is a liquid even if it's molten steel.

>> No.1075909

>>1072702
I did some work experience when younger at this local pace called Jet. they experimented with fusion power, while there they said that the energy they required to carry out some experiments was so great that it could directly effect the national grid. To counter this they had giant flywheels of sorts to build up the required energy over time before releasing in one go.

Im sure i've explained this slightly wrong but here is some info related to it i found; http://www.ccfe.ac.uk/assets/documents/other/JG12409.pdf

>> No.1075912

>>1075754
Nuclear is clean energy retard

>> No.1075965

That's only about as much power consumption as a shipping container full of AMD video cards

>> No.1075971

>>1075866
Yea but in this circumstance, all the power that everybody uses comes from the *same* power plant.
It doesn't make much sense to give a discount to one company because they use vast amounts of it (far more than anybody else) but that's how it goes.

One current story about it:
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/noranda-woes-could-prompt-changes-in-missouri-electric-rates/article_d9c9e2e3-2932-5729-92b4-78173079a06b.html

>> No.1075982

>>1072702
My father used to operate the whole facility.
Liquid Natural Gas is main source of power for the arc furnaces. Those furnaces are so strong that they can withhold grenades, since most of scrap comes from places like afghanistan & brazil.

Arc furnaces are very loud, they d to 140 dB of clashing sound each time they work. I've been to the biggest factory for metallurgy in world thanks to my father.

>> No.1076012
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1076012

>>1072702
Hello there.
>How is it possible to power these machines?
Right wiring, reliability of transmission lines.
>Do they have a power plant on site to feed these furnaces?
Usually no, they just connect to local transmission line, in our country it would be 110kV and 330kV lines.
Then they sign a contract that makes these kind of plants 1st category users (home users like you are 3rd category). 1st category user gets two power sources (depends on demand, can be more), that means two transformers in substation near plant. Both transformers are connected to different transmission lines. In case of failure in transmission line, circuit breakers disconnects one line and connects another one. (this operation can be done in 34 milliseconds or so, otherwise electr. distributor pays to user).
Some plants that make "chemicals" have their own gas driven generators just in case grid goes down. You don't want to your ruin your batch.
Transmission lines can carry megawatts or gigawatts depends on size of the conductor and voltage.
For example China: UHV 800kV transmision line carries 8 GW
When a plant like this turns on it's furnace, a distributor will know about it, cause this little furnace can distort a grid frequency (50 Hz here). Distributor will act accordingly to power demand and will turn on Pumped Storage Plant (2 minutes to start) or other reserve. If there is no reserve anymore, distributor will cut off 3rd category users for some time, just to keep 50 Hz.
>How can the local power utility divert resources to the furnace on demand like this?
Oh, I probably answered this already.
>What do the power cables to a steel factory look like?
Simple Cu cables. In furnaces like these the key to process is frequency, can be 50Hz, can be 1kHz and thousands more (Physics...)
<<pic for shits and giggles

>> No.1076026

>>1075848
No, the logic is they're buying such a large amount that they pay less per unit. Power does get cheaper the more of it that is produces.

>> No.1076128
File: 3.59 MB, 4096x3072, P_20161026_134421.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1076128

>>1072702
Ho Lee fugg

Guess s what opee

I visited Tenaris's big ass steel works in Campania, Argentina, where they would go from scrap and mineral to furnaces- to seamless tubes - to whatever the fuck the demand was (approximately 70% of all the production went to petrochemical applications) , and got damn, it sure was amazing. Pic related, I took it a few hours ago, a bit out of focus, but you couldn't believe the amount of iron suspended in the air it got everywhere in your safety clothes and hands and shit.
And when a fresh load of scrap/minerals arrived to the furnace, boy oh boy it was like the second coming of Jesus Christ, one cannot use enough words to describe it, but I was kinda like very strong white and violet flashes, along with heavy amounts of smoke (both attributed to any possible humidity present in the arriving metal).

>> No.1076264

Working day in and day out in such a facility must be a hellish life.

>> No.1076266

>>1072702
When we had an aluminium smelter yes it had its own power station and coal mine to fuel it.

I note in the video them mention the Ohio river. Does that have a big hydro plant near by?

>> No.1076305

>>1076264
Most of the people sit there and monitor the process...

>> No.1076311

>>1072702
In developed countries with nuclear reactors, no, there is 3 phase electricity for industrial grade appliance.

In shithole countries like USA, most probably, yes.

In Germany I am 100% sure, we have standard 3 phase power coming to our factory.

>> No.1076323

>>1076311
>115 million watts
>standard 3 phase
go on, Hans - ask your local Stadtwerke for a supply quote. Its 'standard' use, after all ;)

>> No.1076326

>>1075971

It doesn't make much sense to give a discount to one company because they use vast amounts of it (far more than anybody else) but that's how it goes.

Well while I am sure there is politics involved it will still work out cheaper to run one line to supply 75% of the used power rather than having several lines sprawled all over the place to provide the remaining 25%

Yes I know the lines are different but the work involved for the supply, including maintenance will work out more favorable for the big consumer.

Like having one massive ship delivering goods to one large port works out cheaper than having hundreds of smaller ships delivering goods to smaller ports.

>> No.1076335

>>1076311

>3 phase electricity for industrial grade appliance.

Bruh. This is not your average 100kw motor

>> No.1076337

>>1074419
They likely just left it there. How the fuck would they move it?

>> No.1076339

>>1075912
why do people think otherwise? That shit pisses me off so much. I just want a comfy micronuke plant to power my community :(

>> No.1076340

>>1076337

Probably cut it up and wreck it with an excavator or something

>> No.1076341

>>1076340
heh, good fuckin luck to whoever got to do that. Sounds like hell.

>> No.1076359

>>1076341

>Sounds like hell

If you had to do it by hand? Yes.

Otherwise it sounds like all in a days work for an equipment operator, just a little different today.

Anyhow I doubt they wasted 70 tons of steel when they are willing to sort scrap.

>> No.1076363

>>1076339
Idk, but I'm happy to be in the only state that uses nuclear as its number one source of energy

>> No.1076364

>>1076363
I'm happy that VA still has a few reactors up.

I'm really hoping Dominion gets its shit together and actually starts working on the new North Anna expansion.

>> No.1076377

>>1076337
They didn't leave it. It wrecked parts of the offices, can't really remember. But there was no signs of the accident when I visited the plant.
And to be precise it seems like it was only 65 tonnes. I was there last year and the accident was in 2013. The plant Ovako's plant in Imatra, I tried to find some images but couldn't :/

>> No.1076753

>>1076326
>It doesn't make much sense to give a discount to one company because they use vast amounts of it (far more than anybody else) but that's how it goes.

it actually makes perfect sense, generally large power consuming customers have an agreed minimum and maximum connected load in their power supply contract. They get penalized if they go over or under that agreement.
This is so the customer has their demand relatively constant so the power generation can predict overall demand over the course of the day and plan what generators/power stations to utilize for the lowest cost. This is extremely favorable for the power generation side.
For example if the power generation knows what customers A, B and C want and the generators connected are supplying that fine with a bit of margin for extra demand from say random domestic demand that is favorable as they can efficiently generate that energy. If they have no idea what any customer wants and demand is varying to the point where generators need to be shut down and re-started multiple times during the day to maintain frequency it is costing the power generation side especially if they are larger machines that take time to start/stop/slow response.

>> No.1076755

>>1075912
Well, the water they use as coolant turns slightly radioactive and gets dumped back into nearby bodies of water, so, mostly green.

>> No.1076757

I saw a documentary once about a powerplant that had a dedicated supply for a spike on the grid that happened at the first commercial of a show in england (east enders i think).

What would happen is that a million or so english people would turn on their electric kettles all at the same time and the power plant had to fire up a new generator to keep the supply going.

>> No.1076760

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WCAzalhldg8

Found it!

>> No.1076770

>>1076755
No it doesn't

It is a double boiler, the inner coolant water becomes radioactive, that water heats up the secondary loop of water which does not become radioactive

They only dump the secondary loop

>> No.1076779

>>1074484
Holy shit, if panels where one one thousandth the price for the money spent on dirty energy each year we could literally give the entire planet energy for a decade.
Something tells me producing panels in that volume would drive the costs way fucking down.
With the world drawing 15 terawatts that'd need (15 000 000 000 000 watts) / (1000 watts per square meter) / (0.2 [20% panel efficiency]).
So 75 billion square meters of panels.
Let's be real and call it 200 billion. Pick the right place and you'll have surplus energy all year round.
Like, over twice what we actually need.
At $20 a square meter (a tenth the current cost) that'd take $4 Trillion and the world would be powered entirely.
Basically without wars over energy we'd either get world peace or people constantly trying to destroy the panels so they could sell their oil.

>> No.1076842

>>1076779
>Pick the right place and you'll have surplus energy all year round.
^^
How much do you know about electr. engineering?
Do you know that every wire has a resistance?'
The longer transmission line, the bigger loss of power.
If you don't want to lose it, rise up the voltage, build stronger towers to hold up bigger diameter wires. (that means more $$ for construction).
Usual loss of power to the last user in transmission line is 5-7% (our law doesn't allow more than 10%).
That means to provide energy to the last user you have to make 5-7% more energy. To generate it you have to build more panels.
And don't forget that your "right place" won't be working at night, your efficiency will drop with time and so on....
There needs to be energy making diversity if you want to sit right next to your computer screen at night.
Oh, I didn't even started to write about grid balance which is the key in all this "green energy"... and I will not you are not worth it.
Put your "Green party" badge up to your own ass and go to study.

>> No.1076855

>>1076842
<your "right place" won't be working at night..
what are batteries, eh?, you goddam Chernobyl apologist.

>> No.1076877

>>1076855
Oh, m8, I need to store some 20'000TWh of elecricity power.
Show me the cheapest option for batteries, that would hold it?
Better start dragging asteroids to earth for rare metals.
Don't forget my friend to learn about grid balance and why your Great Panel Plan is the worst idea.

>> No.1076891

>>1076855
name a battery technology that works at that scale and rate

>> No.1077036
File: 8 KB, 223x170, T-1000.8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1077036

>be working here
>see this

wat do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTKodUpErR8&t=1s

>> No.1077051

>>1075912
Only if no one fucks up. I'm a proponent of nuclear, but considering humanity's predisposition to fuckeduppery, I wouldn't consider it clean.

>> No.1077064

>>1074471
So when its night time and there's no wind? Buy more power from the french? One word:

T H O R I U M

>> No.1077389

>>1076770
It's actually triple, the secondary loop is still dangerous and doesn't exit anywhere, the third is slightly hotter when dumped back though, it can disturb some fishes and aquatic life when there is a drought and it become noticeable for the water body.
So it's bad for the environment, but not because of radioactivity.
>>1076755
Smoke less pot, hippie, you're confused.

>>1076891
Tesla Power Wall?
They are located in user homes, at this scale it makes some sense, and if widely deployed would avoid >>1076760

>> No.1077460

>>1077389
At only $5500 dollars it seems a bit too good to be true, especially after all the rigorous safety legislation. Whatever happened to flow batteries?

Countries that rely on hydroelectric power (such as Norway and Brazil) could build solar and wind power generation facilities to meet increasing population and electricity consumption while retaining the water in their dams for when there isn't as much sunlight or wind. It's when you get to countries without hydroelectric potential that you have a need for batteries.

>> No.1077563

>>1074471
Denmark pays 45 cents per kilowatt hour.

The usa averages 12 cents per kwh

>> No.1077614

>>1072702
>What do the power cables to a steel factory look like?

Probably not that big.

The ones coming from the 150MW jet engine powered 3 phase generator in my city are only about as big around as your leg.

>> No.1077651
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1077651

>>1077051
>muh chernobyl
>muh fukushima
There was a reddit AMA (hurr reddit) with a nuclear engineer a few days ago and he was asked what would happen to the plants in a hypothetical scenario where everyone died at the same time. Basically, the computer systems would eventually detect an error that arose, and they'd shut the plants down safely.

>> No.1077859
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1077859

>>1077651
Especially reactors that use a fertile fuel and ones that use good control rods. The problem with Chernobyl can be attributed to crazy Russians, while the problem with Fukushima can be attributed to a sub-standard sea-wall to protect the backup generators.
>mfw in anti-nuclear country

>> No.1077876

>uranium mining
>Eternal waste storage without guaranteed safety
>Very high construction costs

Yeah fuck off

>> No.1077894

>>1077859
both were human error and government cheapness

>> No.1077902

>>1077859
***
The Three Mile Island accident inspired Charles Perrow's Normal Accident Theory, in which an accident occurs, resulting from an unanticipated interaction of multiple failures in a complex system. TMI was an example of this type of accident because it was "unexpected, incomprehensible, uncontrollable and unavoidable."[97]

Perrow concluded that the failure at Three Mile Island was a consequence of the system's immense complexity. Such modern high-risk systems, he realized, were prone to failures however well they were managed. It was inevitable that they would eventually suffer what he termed a 'normal accident'. Therefore, he suggested, we might do better to contemplate a radical redesign, or if that was not possible, to abandon such technology entirely.[98]

"Normal" accidents, or system accidents, are so-called by Perrow because such accidents are inevitable in extremely complex systems. Given the characteristic of the system involved, multiple failures which interact with each other will occur, despite efforts to avoid them.[99] Such events appear trivial to begin with before unpredictably cascading through the system to create a large event with severe consequences.[100]

Normal Accidents contributed key concepts to a set of intellectual developments in the 1980s that revolutionized the conception of safety and risk. It made the case for examining technological failures as the product of highly interacting systems, and highlighted organizational and management factors as the main causes of failures. Technological disasters could no longer be ascribed to isolated equipment malfunction, operator error or acts of God.[98]

*** .d em . c r a z y . r U S s k i s , 1 9 7 9

The REAL problem, is waste storage.
Even if geological factors were stable for 500 years or so, no guarantee political/etc. will be. Where is Chernobyl this week again? in Ukraine?, back in Russia, or, in no-mans land (again..) . Humanity cannot be trusted for this timespan.

>> No.1077920

>>1077902
That's a very nice and all, but in real life we have a technology that has been in use for half a century, is responsible for a considerable amount of the world's energy generation, has the least amount of deaths per unit of energy and generates no CO2 (inb4 mining uranium generates CO2), so theoretical shit like what you quoted doesn't matter when we have large amounts of statistical data available. That's like saying that we'll never have an uncrashable plane so we should give up on aviation altogether. The only problem with nuclear power is that accidents are sudden, compared to the constant deaths from coal mining accidents and the like, and that normieshits think radiation is magic.

>The REAL problem, is waste storage.
No, it's not.
>Even if geological factors were stable for 500 years
I think they tend to be stable for far longer than that if you build in the right place.
>no guarantee political/etc. will be. Where is Chernobyl this week again? in Ukraine?, back in Russia, or, in no-mans land (again..) . Humanity cannot be trusted for this timespan.
What, you think the Russians will unearth that place for shits and giggles? Nuclear waste has no realistic military use, and it's still in the interest of whoever owns the land to stop leakage. And it's pretty irrational to not go nuclear because some few tens of thousands may get irradiated in the far future while we have the threat of global warming and renewables aren't exactly able to replace fossils yet. They are getting there though, so it's really that we should have gone nuclear in the past so we'd be better off CO2-wise today and renewables could take over in the near future (tesla's new powerwall and those solar roofs are pretty promising for example).

>> No.1077931
File: 3.37 MB, 8000x9300, SNATCH.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1077931

>>1077563
>45 cents per kilowatt hour
Good god.

>> No.1078019

>>1077902
>what us a breeder reactor
>what is the current background rad level at chernobyl
>what is the waste disposal in Mojave desert (no fucking aquifer)

>> No.1078020

>>1077920
The funny thing is CO2 isn't even the worst contributor to the greenhouse effect. Greencocks are all about hybrids and planet savings and half the time still eat beef, the worst contributor

>> No.1078070

>>1076779
>Something tells me producing panels in that volume would drive the costs way fucking down.

There literally isn't enough raw material to produce solar panels in that quantity.

Solar panels are one of those weird things that get more expensive the more you want.

>> No.1078078

>>1078020
That is not an argument, and also you are wrong. Livestock is responsible for 18% of greenhouse gas emissions, and most of the rest is CO2, so it's not worse than CO2, but it is indeed more than the amount emitted by transportation, still, it is worth reducing emissions from cars, as the two quantities are comparable, not to mention that emissions from transportation + emissions from electric power generation > emissions from livestock.

>> No.1078081

>>1075912
Aside from the fact that the cooling water and a load of the materials close to the reactor turn radioactive, and that the waste has to be stored for tens of thousands of years somewhere. There only has to be one accident or natural disaster in those thousands of years to contaminate the atmosphere or pollute the water.

>> No.1078086

>>1076757
Yeah there's a Wikipedia page dedicated to it.

There's a guy whose job it is to go through the TV listings and predict when there will be spikes in demand. Commercial breaks in popular shows, half time during an international football games, etc

>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup

There's this pumped storage station in Wales that I visited, its incredible because from the outside there's almost no sign of it being a power station at all. The whole plant is is inside a mountain in a man made cavern 600ft by 75ft, and 170ft high. Even all of its outgoing cables are buried because the plant sits in an area of "outstanding natural beauty". Takes them about 90 seconds to go from nothing to peak production.

>> No.1078087

>>1078078
Livestock account for less emissions but the gasses they emit (methane for example) are many times more potent greenhouse gasses than CO2

>> No.1078088

>>1076757

This has almost become a non issue due to catch up and pause of live tv.

>> No.1078089

>>1078088
Not really, shows like the great British bake off attract 10-15 million live viewers, and they all go for a cuppa at the same time when the show ends.

Yeah the phenomenon is less prevalent nowadays but people still really like watching live sports for example

>> No.1078090

>>1078020
>>1078078
>rice paddies
>tropical forests
Removing all cows would have 0 impact on methane emissions because the grass would decompose due to the same bacteria anyway.

>> No.1078091

>>1078090
Not really, if we got rid of livestock being raised for meat then we could use that space for other crops. And even if we left the pastures to rot they wouldn't produce anywhere near as much methane as a cow.

>> No.1078099

>>1078081
nuke plants not built by chinks or slavs will handle mild natural disasters no problem and first world country's and more than capably store waste for as long as required

>> No.1078100

>>1078087
>many times more potent greenhouse gasses than CO2
When they say something like "livestock accounts for 18% of greenhouse gas emissions", they don't meant that methane emitted by cows that year accounts for 18% of the mass of all the greenhouse gases released that year, instead what they do is convert the gases to Million Metric Ton CO2 Equivalent, so they count 1 kg of methane as about 21 kilograms of CO2.

>> No.1078123

>>1074484
>>1074471
Geothermal best power

>> No.1078130

>>1074435
As a hippy liberal, I'm more in favor of nuclear power desu. People need to get educated and realize nuclear power is clean energy.

>> No.1078131

>>1075848
>since they are providing jobs to the area they are located in
They are also vital to the weapon production capacity, even if they currently don't make steel for arms. Keeping them alive is a strategic investment. A lot like domestic oil & gas companies.

>> No.1078133

>>1078123
Cut the middleman and go right to nuclear.

>> No.1078152

>>1078131
Or making tanks has the army has no use for.

>> No.1078221

>>1078131
Thorium cycle plants transmute Thorium 232 into Uranium 233, which is fissile but is much less suitable for nuclear weapons for various reasons.

>>1077902
>Australia
>valueless desert terrain
>bottom of ocean
I think humanity can be trusted to keep its mitts away from deadly nuclear waste as long as they remain educated (or paranoid) of radiation.

>> No.1078302

>>1078221
Only as long as we know the dangers of radiation.
Picture, if you will, we have a world war, or society collapses or whatever, and we lose a lot of our technology and science, like what happened when the Roman Empire fell.

Now you're an uneducated peasant, and see those radiation hazard trefoils and you either think it's cursed, and stay the fuck away from it, or think curses aren't real, and it's hiding treasure, and you go dig up a bunch of the shit thinking it's valuable, shit get spread around, and a lot of people die horrible deaths.

>> No.1078311

>>1078152
they are for you anon.

the US military's "we win no matter what" plan is to have warehouses full of stuff dotted around the globe. more weapons than an army could ever use, but when the shit goes down, no american will ever be more than couple hundred miles from a depot.

so in the nuclear wasteland of ww3, russians and euros will be banging rocks together while americans are tooling around abrahms tanks and bradleys.

>> No.1078351

>>1078302
Radiation sickness isn't contagious, it only takes one death for the whole village to learn. Unless they refuse to believe so, in which case their village was doomed to fail. Besides, I doubt any countries are making actions with consideration to post-apocalyptic mudmen.

>> No.1078359

>>1078351
Medieval medicine thought that different animals feces cured different illnesses. Shit cured people?!?
There was a town where there was two hospitals and people went to one of them to give birth. One did also autopsies. This was before people knew about germs. And that washing your hands is a good and healthy manner if you happen to be a medical practitioner.
One of the hospital had a worse death record. Guess which?
And people didn't get it. They just tried to avoid the one where people died and everyone was flabbergasted about the phenomenon.
So ponder this for a moment:
Therr are people that think the earth is flat.
There are people who think vaccines causes all kinds of freak illnesses.
There are people that gladly follow whoever populist leader tells them lie after lie (for once America picks up a trend that comes from the old world instead of the other way around but does it have to be the most fucked up thing happening over here?)
Some people even think that there was some random guy (it always is a guy, isn't it?) who actually made the earth and universe, disregarding physics and the fact that no one bothers to think where this guy even came from.

Summa sumarum, people tend to be overly confident in what they think they could have figured out themselves but we are standing on the shoulders of giants. Shit is hard to figure out, hindsight, you know.

>> No.1078360

>>1078311
Yes. Those impenetrable warehouses!

>> No.1078378

>>1078302
>>1078359
So let me get this straight, you are less concerned about current threats like climate change than a couple thousand people killing themselves accidentally AFTER civilisation has collapsed to such an extent that we have lost all knowledge of radiation? Also I'm pretty sure that any community of survivors would value knowledge and pass it down to their children so that they could eventually rebuild civilisation. Hell, they could have something resembling a country within a decade, so it would be all first gen survivors who could restart technology from a nineteenth century level, at worst.

>> No.1078379

>>1078359
You've proven a point that is valid if human society ever regresses to the point of being in another medieval era, but the combined likeliness of this ever happening, and of the primitive people being able to break through whatever concrete bunker the waste is stored in, I don't think the risk is worth considering. The idea of current civilisation losing so much knowledge is simply fantasy. And even if it does happen, it likely happened through radioactive weapons, so the knowledge of avoiding radioactivity would be right there from the get-go, not for the brotherhood of steel to discover a few hundred years later.

>> No.1078396

>>1078379
>hurr durr it'll never happen
I'm sure the Romans thought the same thing.
All of our knowledge is on electronics, the least stable form of information storage.

You know how long it took to recover the knowledge lost after the fall of the Roman Empire? Nearly a thousand years.

Imagine how long it'll take to recover what we'd lose if everything went tits up within the next century. I honestly doubt humanity will be able to recover before the next extinction event.

And you think a little bit of reinforced concrete will stop someone who thinks there's something valuable behind it? Fat fucking chance.

>> No.1078397

>>1077389
>Tesla power wall
He said battery technology, not brand of battery bank.
Tesla Powerwalls are just a bunch of lithium ion cells in a snazzy package, which is something people have been doing for years. It's cheaper just to buy lifepo3/4 batteries and assemble them yourself.

>> No.1078486

>>1078396
>All of our knowledge is on electronics, the least stable form of information storage.
Yeah, because no-one uses books anymore, am I right? Also, a lot of basic math & science knowledge is literally inside everyone's head, the most stable form of information storage, thanks to public education.

>> No.1078497
File: 81 KB, 841x651, bz2isQK[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1078497

>This place is not a place of honor.
>No highly esteemed deed is commemorated here.
>Nothing valued is here.
>This place is a message and part of a system of messages.
>This place is.. 4chan

Marking radioactive waste burial sites for millennia::
- abstract - http://www.wipp.energy.gov/picsprog/articles/wipp%20exhibit%20message%20to%2012,000%20a_d.htm
- full pdf report (1993) - http://www.wipp.energy.gov/PICsProg/Test1/SAND%2092-1382.pdf

Interesting stuff, if you never seen it - what is maybe forgotten, the timescele (10,000 years plus) means you can make no judgement or guess whatsoever, who or what your future audience might be - and thats not taking into account shit thats curently sitting in surface pools (used fuel rods, etc), and needs _constant_ water cooling, otherwise, it simply boils away.

We stole all the oil and burned through that in a couple of hundred years max - adding random piles of crap everywhere that are gonna be lethal for thousands of years afterwards? - nope, this is the very definiton of irresponsible. IMO.

>> No.1078498

>>1072702
I've seen a few plants build right along rivers, with their own steam power plants. They use the water for cooling too.

>> No.1078562

>>1075912

Sticking radioactive waste in a mountain or burying it underground sure is green.

>> No.1078566
File: 28 KB, 425x215, cable-3Ddibujo.ingles.web.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1078566

>>1072820

Those flexible cables are water cooled.

>> No.1078572

>>1078562
Not putting any more radioactive waste in the ground than we're taking out retard

>> No.1078579

>>1078396
The roman empire was one country. The knowledge of even high-school physics today is worldwide, if you excuse the mudmen. "A little bit of reinforced concrete", combined with a few inches of armour plate will keep out anyone without a ton of TNT lying around, which coincidentally, isn't used by mudmen. And I don't see how this should be anyone's concern if it does happen; a couple of unearthed nuclear waste depots around the globe aren't going to affect the eventual rebuild of modern society. Besides, It's not like the Chinese or Arabs didn't have semi-equivelant technology at the fall of the Roman Empire.

>> No.1078633

>>1078562
Wind turbines and solar thermal plants kill birds, photovoltaics contain hazardous materials and larger installations can disturb the habitats of animals, not to mention the damage done by hydroelectric dams, so most renewables wouldn't be considered green by your standards either. Also radioactive waste buried in some mountain doesn't increase the background radiation level by any significant amount.

>>1078572
Actually, we do. We dig up uranium that has a half life of 4.5 billion years, and our reactors produce a bunch of by-products that have half lives ranging from a couple decades to a couple thousand years, which means they are a lot more radioactive (since they decay a lot faster). You can work with a sample of uranium with no protection for a couple hours with no problems (we did it in one of our physics labs), but you wouldn't want to be anywhere near the things you'd find in nuclear waste produced by a reactor.

>> No.1078641

>>1078633
More radioactivity = more underground heat = more geothermal power generation! What's not to like? Put all our waste in subduction zones, and let it get dragged into the mantle, 0 problems. As long as the containers keep alpha out for a few hundred thousand years.

>> No.1078655

>>1078641
We should store it in your cellar, free floor heating for you.

>> No.1078665

>>1078655
Not in the summer thanks, but a better solution would be to put it a little deeper and surround it with thermoelectric generators and water cooling or just a steam turbine and run your floor heating/other electric devices that way. Even if it is under your house, as long as you have the correct beta shelding (a sheet of aluminium) and the isotope you picked or any of it's decay products isn't a gamma emitter, you'll be fine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

>> No.1078734

>>1078360
go look at the actual casualty studies for a 2000 warhead launch scenario. there are plenty of places in the US that remain relatively unscathed. most of the destruction is around city centers.

>> No.1078775

>>1078734
Not that anon, but I recall reading this dank post on nuclear warfare, and indeed most places wouldn't be utterly obliterated, some others may find it interesting too.
http://www.giantbomb.com/fallout-3/3030-20504/forums/nuclear-warfare-101-wall-of-text-alert-2999/

>> No.1078842

>>1076340
Large chunks of metal in those situations are typicall cut up with an oxygen lance.

>> No.1078847

>>1078152
>Or making tanks has the army has no use for.

Army tank procurement should go in a separate thread. There's a lot more to it than that, and maintaining the specific AFV manufacturing industrial base is much cheaper than trying to replicate it.

BTW they stopped making new Abrams hulls a while back since hulls don't waar out. "New" Abrams are based on existing hulls gutted, modified, and with all electronic and wear parts replaced.

Part of the US Army despise tankers which is why so many programs were sabotaged by poor design dictated by requirements for vaporware systems instead of COTS/MOTS choices. GCV is the classic fuckup.

>> No.1078996

>>1078497
>Stole
From who?
>Adding random piles of crap
Parts of those "Random piles of crap" can and have been re-processed into fuel, but environmentalists and coal companies threw a tantrum about it.
What exactly is wrong with leaving dangerous waste in concrete underground storage designed to last tens of thousands of years?

>> No.1079002

>>1078396
anyone with a brain knows that a human extinction event is essentially impossible. you'd have to literally destroy earth, as in it no longer being a planet any longer, for that to happen.

it's nothing more than nihilistic fantasizing by edgy pessimists to think that humans are going extinct anytime in the next 25,000 years.

>> No.1079011

>>1079002
Hit us with a meteor large enough knock huge clouds of dust into the atmosphere, then watch as starvation kills most of us off.
Anybody left after the dust settles will be subject to typical human infighting, and whoever's left will probably breed and inbreed until we're a race of hemophiliacs who bleed to death after a scratch, or if we get a nosebleed, et cetera.

We're not nearly as robust as you think we are.

>> No.1079012

>>1079002

We are one of the most physically fragile organisms out there so i really dont know how you can believe this to be true.

>> No.1079015

>>1079011
>Anybody left after the dust settles will be subject to typical human infighting, and whoever's left will probably breed and inbreed until we're a race of hemophiliacs who bleed to death after a scratch, or if we get a nosebleed, et cetera.

This. Although it seems like a movie premise, its not far from the truth.
And it could be any number of things to kick off the initial downfall.

Like a deadly antibiotic resistant virus.

>> No.1079092

>>1079002

An inch of snow will shut down a lot of cities, people resort to cannibalism after 3 days in a hurricane and now people are having issues differentiating between male and female genders.

Most of us are going to be fucked. We won't go extinct but we'll be set back a couple hundred years.

>> No.1079105

>>1078397
Lithium is big for grid storage right now. Sodium based batteries are interesting, and have a few advantages especially regarding the temperature range they tolerate.

Batteries, right now, are very good at ramping up their output, or absorbing power, very quickly. That is, going from 0% power in/out to 100%. This is great for frequency regulation, for which a system owner can make decent money. Right now we tend to use natural gas peaker plants for frequency regulation, (and pumped storage for load leveling), but it's likely that batteries will start eating into this.

This is nice, because peak shaving and frequency regulation are important for grid stability, and it's not really something you want to do with say a nuclear or coal plant, mostly because it's not economical. Batteries will let us use the big thermal plants more effectively, and then we can throw wind and solar or whatever into the mix too.

>> No.1079109

>>1074471
Well let's call Spain and see what they think.

>> No.1079111

>>1074435
If there's sun shining and/or wind blowing, then sure, why not. The owner of a mill could agree to by power from the owner of a solar farm via a bilateral contract at some point if the weather is known to be sunny. Of course, this makes sense depending on what the congestion is like on the transmission line(s) between the farm and the mill, but it could be economical.

The grid is all about juggling supply and demand. If you can line them up, great.

>> No.1079114

>>1079092

>3 days in a hurricane

I live in hurricane alley and i can tell you there is no 3 day hurricane.

Nor have i heard of any accounts of canibalism in the lesser antilles in the last 29 years of my life unless it referred to an american man and some bath salts.

>> No.1080119
File: 1.03 MB, 1012x778, FA0012.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1080119

>>1072702
I took a complete mill tour of one of the largest plate suppliers in the US. The EAF was a maddeningly crazy thing to see.

Imagine a 50m shallow cauldron filled with 200 tons of half melted shredded steel scrap and slag at about 900F. These big buckets of steel scrap glide in over the pot on overhead rail lines, and "drop a charge" of scrap by opening up a hatch in the bottom and pouring several tons of shit scrap all over the pot. Then a massive 150 ton lid glides smoother than an ice skater around and over the pot, lowers on a massive hydraulic jack 15 feet across, and seals with the pot. There are lots of little probes and hatches on the top of the lid, including one giant exhaust port that looks like a turbojet engine exhaust.

Swing around the electrode, a 3 foot wide 30 foot high solid graphite rod with thick cables hanging like vines bolted straight onto copper rings around the top of the rod. I really need to emphasize that "big" is an understatement with most of the pieces. You could have lowered a couple of semi-trucks into the pot, and all the parts are hundreds of tons of steel and refractory brick but they all glide along well oiled hydraulics and rails so it looks super smooth.

They drop the graphite rod into a small hatch in the top, lower it right until it's about a foot above the slag line and turn the power on. 120 million watts of DC power shoots through tip the rod like a thunderbolt, goes through the melt pool, and into the bottom of the pot to the ground electrodes. Best way to describe it: Lightning Volcano. Absolutely terrifying the first time you see it up close, molten steel and slag are flying out everywhere with billowing clouds of black choking smoke. They keep the power on for about a minute and then add more scrap.

>> No.1080122

>>1080119
Also the air in there is totally nasty. Nobody had on respirators, and the ventilation system was supposed to move the worst of the air out of the building, but we were running from pulpit to pulpit because there was so much lead and scale in the air. They overpressurize the control pulpits, which apparently keeps most of the shit out, but the air in there wasn't great either.

By the time we moved out of the rolling section, I spit out bright red mill scale that had settled in my mouth and nose.

Also there are tons of birds and other wildlife living inside the mill. There was bird shit on literally all surfaces that weren't inside, which didn't help the smell considering most surfaces were at least a toasty 300F. One section of the walkways crossed over the post casting line; the air temp was at least 150 F, and if you even looked at one the cooling slabs it burned your face.

>> No.1080154

>>1080122
That sounds incredible, I'd like to see that some time.

>> No.1080377

>>1080154
Are you in the Americas?

>> No.1080816

Some random stuff:

http://www.energy.siemens.com/us/en/power-transmission/transformers/special-industry-transformers/eaf.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cphhiTQgbWU

http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/worst-source-of-fluctuations-on-a-power-supply-system

>> No.1080904

>>1079002
Look at the shit oles where there has been a long time war going on, like Somalia. They have no infrastructure left, and are relying on external import on quite a lot. So if a situation like this would be global you'd need to start from scratch.
And that is hard. Destruction of infrastructure leads to chaos, it takes so much longer to build something that destroy.... So we would be in serious trouble in a situation with snowfall for a couple of years on a global scale. People would die, nobody would have anything to eat besides the shit you have stowed away, and that won't last for years. Wars would happen and places would be destroyed. At that point we would be in a position of a possible extinction....

>> No.1080906

>>1078379
And that is why snowfall is a far greater concern. On a global scale when you loose crops simultaneously for whatever reasons.

>> No.1082436

>>1074507
why do you say this

>> No.1082703

>>1077036
holy shit that was amazing

>> No.1082782

>>1076757

Possibly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slDAvewWfrA from Britan From Above

>> No.1082783

>>1076760
>>1076757
Well shit, ignore me.

>> No.1082836

>>1082436
He's just trying to make this world a better place.