/diy/ - Do It Yourself

This can only end badly.

>>732364
Why? What will go wrong?

This is basically the same process as actual invisalign uses, just DIY.

>>732366
Because you don't have any knowledge or experience built on thousands of years of doctors fucking murdering people.

>>732368
This isn't rocket science. Teeth move under pressure. I'm going to apply that pressure, and move 2 of my teeth in opposite directions, about 2 millimeters, over the course of several years.

>>732368

For reference, this is the actual Invisalign software. It literally does exactly the same thing as I'm describing. They even 3d print the basis for their molds.

>>732363
Orthodontics aren't affected just by the position of the teeth. In order for the orthodontics to work, you need to have an xray of your teeth and jaw and also the densities of your gums for you to find out the right tension for your orthodontics. These things can only done at a dentist's office. Also, if you fuck up, insurance sure as hell won't cover it and you have to pay out the ass to fix the problem.

My initial research suggests that the process should take 13-14 months, with each tooth moving .33mm per retainer.

I won't be able to wear these retainers during my work day, but I'll be able to wear them at home and while sleeping, which should be enough. Invisalign is supposed to be worn for 20 hours a day, but I can probably wear it for about 16 hours with no problem.

Seems like a risk I'm willing to take. Those 2 teeth aren't going to get any less fucked up on their own. As for the tension/speed of movement, I'll be using whatever the average speed is.

>>732372
Those 2 teeth aren't going to get any less fucked up on their own. As for the tension/speed of movement, I'll be using whatever the average speed is.

Since I already had braces once, the rest of my teeth are in their correct positions. All I need to do is apply torque to these two.

>>732382
How are you going to apply torque to those two? By pushing on your other teeth? Oh wait... Now your other teeth are going to move too.

>>732363

Holy shit there are so many haters on this thread.

There's a huge mentality of people thinking that only doctors can ever do anything medical ever. Have you ever met someone who later went to medical school? Everyone I know who went to medical school is kind of dumb. They're all doctors now.

I think this is awesome, OP. Keep on keeping on.

>>732390
Yes, I expect them to. I figure they probably won't move much however, since the axis of movement is forward and back, and there are way more molars than the two teeth that need to move. Also, since they are moving in opposite directions, they will primarily be acting upon each other.

If the rest of my teeth move a fraction of a millimeter, I don't care.

>>732398

To answer your questions, I can't think of any good reason why the movement should be anything but linear. It's not like they become much easier to move after the first few movements. It's not like your teeth get more pliable with motion.

>>732399
Some of what I read suggested that they do in fact get more pliable... I mean, after having braces, it's common for teeth to be somewhat loose/wiggly for several months, until the gums recover and reform.

Does anyone have a good suggestion for a cheap molding plastic I can use? I just need to pour an initial mould of my current actual teeth position, for scanning.

>>732399
Now your bite doesn't match top and bottom. Now you have a headache. Now your teeth are misaligned because no, they won't all move the same way

All these idiots who think OP should pay thousands to a doctor to move his teeth a few mm...

Fucking go for it OP. This is cool as hell.

>>732399
they actually do. i had my braces removed 2 years ago, and they are still going to places

>>732370

>This isn't rocket science.

you're right, it's harder

consider the following:

you can make a homemade rocket for less than $50 and figure out where it will go given a certain amount of thrust (based on the amount of fuel you load into it) with a ninth grade education. If you wanted to get a job making rockets it'd probably take about four years of college

however, you cannot readily buy braces without a prescription, or install them without hurting yourself. Likewise if you wanted to get a job installing braces, you have to go to college with a good gpa, then do postgrad work and then apply to medschool and spend years getting certified

>>732421
>you can make a homemade rocket for less than $50 and figure out where it will go given a certain amount of thrust (based on the amount of fuel you load into it) with a ninth grade education.

Consider the following:

You can move your teeth by simply applying pressure to them with your own fingers. Children who suck their thumbs and cause their teeth to become misaligned.

Meanwhile when people talk about rocket science they are usually referring to rocketry as it applies to space exploration, not about ancient Chinese rocketry.

>>732363
>mfw when I was a kid my tooth was twisted in the proper direction by physically grabbing it with 2 fingers and twisting, for 6 months or so.
>mfw it worked
Go for it op.

>>732421

I have a PhD.

You could do what I do with a couple weeks of training and some common sense.

You could never get my job without a PhD.

Sometimes life isn't fair, homie.

Orthodontics fucking hurts. Seriously, there is pain involved. A lot of it.

Why is everyone discussing the plausibility of DIY invisalign and noone is discussing the lack of desirability for it?

Owwwwwwwwwwwwww.

>>732363
holy fuck OP this is a stupid idea, and by stupid I mean stupid enough it might just work. 3d printers with the required resolution(stereolithography) are like $2000 cheaper than the process. Shit OP, if you can get this to work, you could destroy the whole industry of orthodontics. Well at least I want you to try this, because it could be so damn disruptive!

>>Whats a good cheap pourable plastic or resin for this initial impression?
you can buy the same damn stuff dentists use for like $12 bux: http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-teeth-mold-for-Halloween-Teeth/

>>I considered 3d printing the retainers
aw hell no! Especially if you use stereolithography, that stuff is nasty! Dude, the retainers for invisalign are just vacuum formed plastic(or thermoformed which is vacuum forming with more pressure). Vacuum forming is something you can do in your garage. You 3d print the teeth how you want them to be and vacuum form something over them for best results use dental grade plastic, which is cheap!
http://www.keystoneind.com/en/thermal_plastics/crown_bridge_material.html

This stuff here goes through the process of making retainers so you can steal from that:
http://www.slideshare.net/indiandentalacademy/bobby-invisalign

The scanning part is going to be tough, getting a scanner with enough resolution to scan teeth is not going to be cheap. The 3d modeling won't be as easy as you think. Make sure to look up the patents.

All in all, even if you have to buy an expensive 3d scanner, a 3d printer, and stereolithography resin, you might still be able to accomplish it for less than the cost of invisalign!

>732397

this

>>732447
This kind of reasoning really pisses me off.
Hospitalization in the US is overpriced, true
Doing what a doctor does on a daily basis is not THAT difficult, true.

But that's not really what you are paying for. You are paying for decision making and risk the doctor takes for you. My father is a surgeon and he always says- it doesn't take a genious to operate (any warhammer 40k nerd with an anatomy atlas could do it) but deciding what, how and when to operate, and what to do if shit goes wrong is the difficult thing you need 6+ years of education and years of practice.

In other words- if you fuck up, you are fucked. If a doctor fucks up, he has to fix it/insurance will pay you/you can sue him.

What could possibly go wrong?

>>732493
Why does the 3d print need to be super high quality? My 3d printer is a standard FDM printer (MendelMax) but the layer resolution is about 40 microns.

Maybe I'll use my printer for initial prototyping, and use laser sintering or something higher quality, for the final teeth sets.

Do you really think vacuuforming would be better than my shapelock idea? Shapelock has smooth edges, and I dont want to irritate my gums by having sharp edges on the retainer plastic.

>>732553
I do like the idea of using clear dental grade plastic, if it would allow me to use the retainer at all times (including when I'm at work). For that reason alone I might try to vacuum form the retainers.

>>732553

I was at a 3d printing convention where I talked to a dentist who had a both.
He was making dental crowns if I remember correctly.

The key to his process was , milling his layer printed positiv molds, then casting a negative mold and than casting a cown.
maybe that's something to consider.

on the subject of STL printing.
I think you should prototype using your printer and outsource the stl printing to a rapid prototyper.
It'll be rather expansive , but nowhere near the cost of a printer

>>732560
My university might have a stereolithography printer. Might also have a vacuum forming machine.

I'm going to be recording my progress at this blog:

orthoprint.wordpress.com

if anyone is interested in watching me fuck with my teeth in extremely slow motion.

>>732571
Some people might really enjoy that kind of thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM

>>732363
Give it up man, your teeth want to be crooked. Let them be crooked. Nobody gives a crap unless they're freakishly out of alignment.

>>732722
I give a crap. It affects my self confidence, makes me not want to smile. The tooth that projects outward presses into my lip, giving me occasional sores at that spot.

Having straight teeth makes it comfortable for people to look at you. I want that. I can't perform cosmetic surgery on myself, but I can do this.

>>732363
An the doctor you went to told you to wear a retainer at night after he took off your braces... a retainer at this point could very well stop the progression. See a pro. Visit a teaching University for lower cost treatment.

>>732747
I had braces years ago. I haven't worn the retainer the orthodontist gave me, which is why my teeth are crooked again.

>stop the progression
The progression is moving my teeth out of alignment. That is exactly what I am going to reverse. This time, when it's finished I will wear a retainer.

>>732363
cool idea op, an it sound like it will work.

If you're successful and you document the step for proof, you could probably make some cash doing it for other people.

>>732767
Now THAT sounds like a terrible idea, practicing unlicensed medicine on other people is a great way to get sued into oblivion and get criminal charges.

No, I only care about my own teeth.

Can't afford braces....
Owns a 3D printer...
There's a man who knows how to prioratize.

>>732774
>3d printer cost me 700 dollars to build
>braces would cost 5000-6000

Totally the same ballpark.

>>732770
No way. You're obviously poor if you're doing this to begin with, so you could use the money.
If you set up on silk3.0 I bet you could make a killing.

>>732532
this kind of reasoning pisses me off.

doctors fuck up all the time without repercussion. rarely do they own up to it. Similar to an auto mechanic who fixes the wrong part. They will just say you need another part.

also any oral surgeon would be really insulted that you called this surgery. Worst case scenario maybe his tooth moves the wrong way. happens to people who pay to have braces installed by a professional.

>>732571
>if anyone is interested in watching me fuck with my teeth in extremely slow motion.
This is my fetish

Well my first recommendation would be to not do it, but since you are so set on this path I hope that you succeed, or at least don't suffer much.

Good luck OP. Just remember you're kind of playing with fire but I hope you succeed, it will be rewarding to look in the mirror and know you changed it yourself.

>>732899
Why? What's your first recommendation based on?

I'm actually interested in hearing a good reason as to why this is a bad idea.

>>732906
Because people go to college to do this sort of stuff,look I don't know shit about dentistry. I'm a lawyer and one of the things I have learned is that you shouldn't do pro se representation, I get the same feeling about dentistry.

Is there really no one on here with dentistry knowledge? I'd really like to know if this would actually work.

>>732914
>I get the same feeling about dentistry.
lol ~ go for it bro, only one way to test the limits of your self-belief here. Fuckers get paid to much anyway. I wouldn't, purely on the basis that I once attented a "heres some we really fkd up" lecture at a dental conference - dunno anything about Dentistry either (av tech) - but, it was certainly jaw-dropping stuff.. Dunno how much follow-up is involved either, but you could also consider an eastern european dental holiday, cost you the half or less.

>>733141
>eastern europe
Simply flying to eastern europe would cost 1000 bucks. Orthodontics require lots of follow up visits.

>>732914
hey the once a year I get my hair cut by a professional. she tells me i shouldn't cut my own hair. when I ask why she tells me she learned it in school.

>>733289
Really not sure what you're trying to say.

I cut my own hair, it works pretty well. OP's idea is obviously way more complex, but I think it will probably work. I give it an 80% chance of working. The biggest reason this might not work, imo, is that real dental retainers are made specifically in order to minimize discomfort. They have smooth edges, are trimmed and fitted to be as unobtrusive as possible. OP doesn't have those skills or tools, so his retainers will probably be rough and uncomfortable, which will make him not want to wear them (even if they would work).

what you want op is alginate, you can get it from any mold making store. My local is called barnes but im pretty sure its only in my city which is in australia. There'll be an internet one anyhows.

The alginate makes a negative, and then you make a positive by pouring plaster or whatever into the alginate negative.

look up 'prop vampire teeth' and the like, there's a make.com on it or something.

Dental student here. This could work, but mostly likely won't. Here's why: plastic aligners (Invisalign) can't translate teeth very well, they can mostly tip them. If your teeth are "pushed in" then you're going to succeed at tilting them out, not translating them outward. When you put pressure on the crown of a tooth, the crown moves in that direction, and the root moves in the opposite direction (this is called Begg's tipping principle). You can only really get translational movement with a bonded wire appliance. Plastic aligners also can't do rotational movement very well along the tooth's vertical axis (although it is possible). If there's crowding, you're likely to make other teeth crooked in the process. You also won't be able to do extrusion (pulling the tooth downward).

If you're serious about doing this, be very careful that you are applying force to the tooth as close to the gums as possible, so you don't cause the root to literally rotate and erupt out of the gingiva.

There are a huge number of other factors, but the point is this- if your two problematic teeth happen to be a simple tilt movement away from being straight, then this could work. If they need to be rotated, torqued, extruded or translated, you're just gonna make things worse. At least see if you can find some texts on orthodontics at your university, and read them before you try this.

>>732770

Very glad i stumbled upon this thread , i used to have braces as well as a teen , broke my retainer by accident and my teeth shifted , not as bad on top but the bottom is crowded again looks pretty bad , my front right tooth looks like yours kind of but not as bad , got quote on braces again it was about 3k , insurance covered it only once blah blah . Ortho also said since i had braces the pressure applied to your teeth blunted the roots , very common and my front tooth might not survive ortho , becareful op , im in the process of ortho now but only the bottoms i refuse to get a fake tooth idk .

just be careful the pressure applied incorrectly or to much over time might cause them to fall out

>>732770

didnt mean to reply to you

>>732363
you will not succeed, i am telling you now. i work with teeth, its not that simple. but since you sound so confident, please do this and post results on the board so i can see how badly it turns out. hell, i might give it to one of my orthodontic friends to use in his invisalign speeches he gives at other practices.

>>732397
The difference is, the guys who went to medical school learned from their training.

On a regular web forum I read, some doofus wanted an explanation of how to read his MRI, because he didn't trust what the doctor told him. We basically explained the same thing to him that we're trying to explain to OP: go to medical school, then do an internship in radiology, spend five years reading X-rays and MRIs and seeing what is normal and what isn't normal every single day, and at the end of it, he too would be able to interpret his MRI to figure out if the doc was right or not.

In OP's case, replace that with dental school and orthodontistry.

Oh well. OP seems hellbent on wrecking his teeth. Good luck, OP.

>>732363
OP, you're the same guy who posted about this maybe six months or so ago, aren't you?

If you'd followed our advice then and gone to Thailand or Mexico or eastern Europe, you'd be six months closer to having straight teeth.

Instead, you're either having fun trolling us (most likely) or are going to waste a lot of money for no useful result (next most likely) or are going to utterly ruin your teeth (possible, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you'll stop and see a dentist before it gets that bad).

>>732397
This, I think it is a great idea OP.

>>734031
Not that guy.

>waste a lot of money
what, 60 bucks for the materials?

>ruin my teeth
Seems unlikely to me. I'm following the exact procedure that Invisalign uses.

>>734031
Things are already in motion.

I'm currently trying to figure out the easiest way to 3d scan.... I was planning to use a Makerbot Digitizer, but I'm concerned the accuracy isn't close to what I'd need.

I'll do some tests soon with the Digitizer, but I'm also working on building a scanning rig with David-laserscanner. It will be pretty obvious if the scan isn't accurate of course, because the first aligner won't fit. I'm not going to proceed past the first aligner until it's perfect.

>>734130
There's also the option of destructive scanning.. that is, taking the mold, shaving it down layer by layer, and 2d scanning the flat surface. This would take forever though.

>>732553
>>Why does the 3d print need to be super high quality? the layer resolution is about 40 microns.

The layer resolution is often a lie in practice.

>>734130
You need higher resolution than that
>>734131
The resolution's pretty fucking good though

go for it OP that sounds badass

I'm gonna weigh in a bit, and hopefully help you not look like an idiot.

>>734131
Destructive scanning is what was done to create some of my orthodontia. The soft molds taken were destroyed in the process of manufacturing my retainers.

It has been mentioned a lot already, but resolution and precision are a big issue. I ran a Dimension rapid prototyping machine (3d printer) for a few years that had a precision of somewhere around .0005 inches if I needed it to. I usually ran around .0015 IIRC. I always ran ABS. I'm not sure if it would be strong enough to shift your teeth and still fit. Something with a comparable thickness to my clear retainers printed would have no strength. It would also be VERY challenging to remove any support material from a part as thin as invisalins, however, most newer machines have support filament that dissolves in solution.

I have also tried rapid prototyping on a Makerbot 2. The open build environment, and overall precision did not compare it all. I don't think I would say it was accurate to .01 inches consistently. This was in clear PVA filament. You also don't have support filament options.

>>734163
Well, I wasn't planning on printing the actual retainers. I am going to print positives of my teeth, and then vacuum-form the retainers out of dental-grade plastic.

I don't have a good methodology for destructive scanning. I'm hoping laser scanning will be good enough.

>>734170
you'll definitely need some data on your bone/gum density/size in order to model how to apply the forces to make the movement in the right direction.

scanning your mouth after some time of using the orthodontics will help you correct how you are applying the forces if you see some pieces are moving in a non desired way, but you won't be able to do much trial/error before fucking all up.

I think it's doable, but you'll need software modelling AND help/supervision from a professional, plus tons of research to make it viable. Even if you had pro software, I doubt the planning could be done from a wizard-like menu, you know...

I've been thinking of doing the exact same thing for some time now, but with the help of a friend, dentist. Maybe you can find someone doing research/publishing his work on orthodontics that would be interested in following the process.

>>734456 (cont)
also, afaik, adults that go through orthodontics usually need to use fixed retainers for years (don't know if even forever) to avoid their teeth from moving again. It's not the same to reposition your teeth when your bone structure is still growing, than doing it when this phase is finished in your adult years

>>734456
I'm a professional 3d modeler, so making the model and making the teeth move over time won't be challenging. But you're right, it's definitely a good idea to take intermediate castings to let me observe the progress/make corrections.

And yes, I plan on having to wear a retainer for the rest of my life. According to my research the bone does change during the process however, even as an adult.

>>732780
It doesn't work that way, though.

You are supposed to set aside a greater percentage of your money for necessary or risky procedures, and not blow it on objects that you can get at any time.

>>735320
That logic would make sense except that OP said he already had braces once.

>>735533
How does that affect the logic?

His previous braces worked, and other than monetary issues, he would go for them again, to adjust the remaining teeth. It's not like it's a failed option.

Perhaps if he didn't throw money around like a giddy twelve-year-old, he'd have the funds to get real invisalign or braces of any sort, installed, monitored, and backed by a medical professional.

That said, I do want to see what OP does, because in the true /diy/ spirit, he should strive to be as competent as he can be, in whatever fields he wishes (but of course I want to see how badly he fucks up, because this kind of desperation should be reserved for the truly destitute, not for faggots who don't respect money).

im curious? how do you people think this kind of shit was done before institutional knowledge? granted, they mostly went for cruder methods, but there was a first guy to try stuff with no background because it wasnt available. cant we help an anon out and point him towards his goal despite what you feel about the procedure?

>>735845
Society has progressed, yes, but the second reason is just because we're in an overly cautious, insurance-driven world where your every move is risk-calculated by some Asian actuary in an office building cubicle.

OP, ignore those telling you to "leave it to the professionals"
Yes, ideally you would want to tap on the collective skill of those with more experience, but since you have a budget I will try my best to give you a sensible solution.

First of all, I had braces. Second of all, I don't use invisalign, BUT i do use retainers and they are basically the same thing. Having years of experience I have some light to shed in this topic.

I am afraid it will take too much money (material, molds, time required to refine the technique and make something comfortable enough to wear, etc) to 3d-print your own invisalign. Much more than your original estimate for sure.

So here is the solution: night guards + shapelock (your original idea).

The guards are a close match to invisalign and dental retainers, and are comfortable to wear for many hours every day. You do know that to actually straighten crooked teeth, you have to wear these devices for like 8+ hours a day, right?

My teeth are straight, and I still wear retainers for 6 to 8 hours, every night, every week, for years.

Back to the topic: get the type of guards that you use hot water and then bite into them to create your mold.
Then if it was me, I would use some layers of shapelock in the edge of the teeth I want to "push" and perhaps a dremel to remove a bit on the opposite side of the tooth that will have to "give way".

In short, the idea is for the mold to fit very tight on your teeth. You should feel pressure (even pain) above your gums. Wear these 8 hours a day (during nigh-time if its easier and to avoid speaking with a lisp in public).

After a few weeks when you have no more pain, and the mold "just fits", discard it, get new night guards, and repeat the process.

I'm guessing around $30 every month plus a few hours to do your handywork to the guards. Do this for a year or so. The process has to be slow.

>>735966
Comment ran too long, here is the end:

Also, once you are happy with your results, go buy the thinnest (usually more expensive) night guards and make a last mold.

That will be your retainers. You have to use them daily (maybe 6 hours per night?) even if you feel they aren't doing anything.

protip: if you stop wearing guards (frankvisialign or final retainer) for a few days, you will notice that once you wear them back it will be a very tight fit and perhaps even hurt.

That's your cue that your teeth will start moving back into their "natural" (crooked) place if you let them.

Very few people are born with naturally straight teeth. Good luck OP

>>732753
>didn't wear my retainer
Didn't you have an option for a fixed retainer?

>>735972
I had a fixed retainer, it fucked the structural integrity of my lower front teeth. I was unable to brush/floss properly due to the wire, then the cement broke on one side and the wire scraped my enamel to shit.
Captcha: 2600

>>735980
Really? When was this?
I have mine for around two years now, on both upper and lower teeth.
It's a small bit of wire completely covered in orthodontic glue, comfy as fuck and never bothered me once.
I can't floss the teeth it covers but it's nothing that a regular cleaning can't take care of once in six months.

>>735845
The problem is that the road to progress in personal medicine is littered with the dismembered corpses of those who tried and failed.

If OP were asking for a cure for syphilis because he cannot afford to go to a quack, and anons steered him toward taking a dose of the corrosive sublimate of mercury, would you consider this to be a great application of historical medical knowledge, or utterly fucking retarded because penicillin is ten bucks for a syringe-full?
>>735924
It's not just insurance-driven caution, it's because if OP destroys his jaw, he will be much more unhappy than he is now with a merely crooked tooth. And it is much more likely that he will destroy his jaw than that he will manage to do a usable job on his orthodontic thingamaboobs.

>>736035
Considering he's doing this to his upper teeth, and only two of them, I don't see how it would at all effect his jaw.

>>736405
Because all of your teeth move (or they don't) to make room for the others moving in. Then there's the bottom Hal of his jaw. Oh whoops I can't close my mouth all the way anymore because my bite is screwed now

>>732363
is invisalign a good thing?
i didnt get braces as a kid because a doctor told my mom that my teeth would straighten out and they never did. i want straight teeth but i would look stupid with braces at my age

>>736420
>doctor told my mom that my teeth would straighten out

Lol. That's not how shit works yo.

But yea, Invisalign works in certain cases. All depends on the particulars of your teeth/jaw.
see:
>>733476

>>736423
my are pushed back so i guess i need braces then dang

>>732421
consider the following: the medical system is operating on a medieval guild system while using 19th century economic models. That is to say, they only let certain people become licensed in order to keep prices artificially high. It isn't more difficult to become a doctor, or in this case a dentist, but they dont want you to know that because then you will begin to wonder why the fuck you are paying them a thousand dollars to stick their fingers in your mouth.

tldr; nigger please.

>>732738
>I give a crap. It affects my self confidence, makes me not want to smile. The tooth that projects outward presses into my lip, giving me occasional sores at that spot.
but fangs are cute

>>732532
Genius.

Move to England. One of us, one of us....

>>736420
>.... i want straight teeth but i would look stupid with braces at my age
a girl I work with got braces in her early-30's.
next time I was at the dentist I asked how old is too old for braces and she said there is no age limit; it depends on the potential benefits really.
the oldest patient she had with braces was in her 60's.

>>732363
>>732366
>>732370

Nigger those guys go to med school for 6 years to get to do this - they practice this crap for 4 years in school . Please don't fuck around . Human anatomy and physiology is EXTREMELY COMPLEX .

Love , your local brain cutter.

>>736013
Late 1990's. I wish my wire had been completely coated; I just had orthodontic glue at the ends where it was attached.

>>732571
Bookmarked. I'm curious to see how this goes, especially since you are dead set on doing it anyway.

Oh well. Could have been cool.

Hello, I don't know if you've seen these videos already but thought I would post them on here to see if there is any useful information that could help with your project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6O07UiElxo This guy is a professional retainer/aligner maker and his method seems pretty damn crude compared to yours. He's basically moving teeth "by eye".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-vut8Wwx1c & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrfh9NBdx-o

This guy made his own vacuum forming machine so he could build retainers on his own. Although his retainers won't move the teeth, the method he used can be adapted to make aligners also. Is 3D printed plastic safe to be heated? If not I would suggested you 3D print your next step then take an alginate impression of that model. Once you have that you can pour in plaster and use the new plaster cast in the vacuum forming machine. Just like he did in the video.

I am considering doing something similar myself but without the 3D printer. I will watch this thread with interest.

Good luck

Signed

Someone else with crooked teeth.

>>738073
This project is still a go, but I decided to take down the blog.... I dont want it to be linked to me for insurance reasons. I'll just post updates here.

Still waiting on a new laser and parts for my printer.

>>738338

Wow, that's basically the same theory as mine, except he's doing it by eye. Which is fucking ridiculous, but he's using the same method for producing the actual retainers which is awesome.

Thanks for the videos, this is great. The info is very specific.

>Is 3D printed plastic safe to be heated?
Seems unlikely that a vacuum machine would get up to the temps that could melt PLA or ABS (which melt around 250-300c).


I definitely wouldn't do this without a 3d printer. The idea of moving teeth by eye is crazy...

>>738003

>Maxillary A&P extremely complex
>I'm a neurosurgeon btw

I don't believe you for some reason

>>732363
Oh, I see.
Thanks, OP!

Progress...

>>738795
This is the vacuum forming machine I'll be using.

Still waiting on my laser.

>>739206
Another note: I've decided to try to use 3d printing for only a segment of the vacuum positive. After I scan the mold, I'll cut out a segment with a dremel. That segment will be bonded to the 3d printed adjustment blocks.

Since the mold positive is inherently more accurate than any 3d printed piece, this will ensure that I won't accidentally move my other teeth. I'll also be able to 3d print fewer parts.

>>739206
Another note: I've decided to try to use 3d printing for only a segment of the vacuum positive. After I scan the mold, I'll cut out a segment with a dremel. The remaining mold will be bonded to 3d printed adjustment segments.

Since the mold positive is inherently more accurate than any 3d printed piece, this will ensure that I won't accidentally move my other teeth. I'll also be able to 3d print fewer parts.

>>737103
>

>>732363
This is everything that is wrong with countries without free healthcare
/thread

>>740534
>he thinks anything is free
Let me know when you find a dentist willing to do pro bono work for 7 billion people.

Hows that quantitative easing treating you?

>>740537
So let me get this straight. Dentists should always work for a price which puts off most but not all people because the only reason to do anything is a pure profit motive and they must always be a scarce resource? Governments shouldn't intervene in this because not only is this right, but to do so would be unethical and they should have no interest in providing benefit to those from which they draw authority to represent? I suppose you believe that the organised collective social provision of anything is always going to be more wasteful than the individual provision as well?

How is selling out your society for the sake of the interest of the richer and more powerful minority treating you? Quantitative easing is just fine seeing as the value of money is wholly relative to everyone actually concerned with the business of getting on with life compared to the business of possessing as many units as possible for abstract intangible means.

Mind you, if I had my own way, I'd build a coop communal facilities at the top of each street instead of encouraging private ownership of individual facilities in every household. All those wasted resources.

>>740566
You implied things about my position that aren't true. Government price fixing is not the solution that's just more force

I'm not sayin what the us had the last ten years is fine, but saying the government taking more of your money to pay for your 'free' dentist is absurd.

The dentist is not fucking free, don't call it that. He works. He does work. He MAKES money just like you. The government doesn't make anything, but for some reason they are the only ones given that power.

>>732532
>if you fuck up, you are fucked.
>If a doctor fucks up, you're fucked and your doctor is less rich
yeah, sounds horrible for doctors.

>>740571
Here is how it works here.

You are always free to go to a private dentist who will charge whatever the free market will support. You are also free to go to an NHS dentist who must cap the price of treatment at a set amount. If you qualify for partial or full exception you can get a reduction of partial or full exception against the cost of treatment.

The cap provides a minimum cost which is tolerable to most and the exemption protects the poorest and most vulnerable in society from having to consult /diy/ for orthodontic advice. The compromise allows free choice for those who are willing to pay, a sustainable cost for the majority and subsidised treatment without excessive cost to the taxpayer for a minority.

The only negative to dentists is that they are obligated to provide a certain amount of this NHS service in return for their state supported education and the establishment of their practices.

We went through a rocky patch about 15 years ago when the market was deregulated and ALL dentists suddenly went private and jacked up their prices massively, but after a few years it corrected as more people decided to become dentists and the market settled close to the cost of the NHS cap anyway.

>>740578
Okay, but if I live in your country, and don't pay taxes. And ignore your governments demands to pay. And then eventually the cops will come to arrest me. Then if I resist arrest, they will beat me until I comply. If I don't comply they will keep beating me until I die. If I do, I will be arrested and put away for a long long time.

>>740579
>And then eventually the cops will come to arrest me.
for not paying taxes? nope. You'd have to go to court and refuse to pay taxes there, but you wouldn't get arrested for that.

>>740581
What do you think they'll do if I go to court and refused to pay taxes?

The state is fucking violence man. You are making people pay for your shit with the threat of violence. Controlled economies fail because no one is smart enough to do that shit.

>>740579
If you lived in this country you'd pay no taxes at all on the first 10k you earn each year. After this point it would automatically be deducted from your wages at the point of pay, you'd never have to 'file' any taxes.

If you were self employed you'd be expected to complete a tax return and pay taxes on any profit over that threshold. You'd be obligated to return a form saying "earnings under threshold" each year if you didn't want to pay taxes and even if you were lying you'd basically fall off the radar until the point when you did something which put you on the radar and you were investigated.

I know plenty of people who have never paid taxes despite earning over the threshold. Casual work paid cash in hand, buying and selling etc. Also plenty who earn a mediocre amount and file legitimate taxes never showing much of a profit due to putting all living expenses through as reclaimable business expenses.

Also when I was married to an American national and moved her to the UK she was still obligated to file and pay American taxes as a US citizen or risk being arrested on entry to the country. I'm pretty sure America is about the only country in the world which do that to expatriates or citizens with dual nationalities.

>>740582
Your wages might get garnished or property confiscated, but if you play along you won't get arrested until you're homeless and probably not then

When are we gonna see the mold, OP? I want to see what you're up against.

>>732398
anon just try to no fuck up the armony of the oclusion. good luck but a really think that i will end badly , i dont really see the point of risking the potential good oclusion of your teeth for the Aesthetics of 2 of your dental organs by the way if you indeed fuck up you are gonna damaged your ATM look that up and that shitt is reaaally expansive to repair , anyway is a free country you can fuck yourself if you so desire

>>732405
Alginate

orthodontists spend years at school for a reason
and not everything should be /diy/
when it comes to health this is one of those times it's best left to the pros

/thread

>>741771
That's the thing: my teeth and jaws are ALREADY maloccluded due to the position of my lateral incisor. It literally prevents my jaws from fitting together properly.

Aside from the aesthetic aspects, it's already giving me symptoms of TMJ (jaw clicking, etc).

I'm not moving any teeth other than these 2, so my overall bite should not be affected.

>>741903
you dumb faggot see
>>741878

your googling cannot possibly replace actual experience and a systematic education

inb4 you're a poorfag, i don't care answer is still valid.

>>738003
No, it is not extremely complex yet it is EXTREMELY RISKY since the subject is a humanbeing.

>>741906
>your googling

You mean my research? Where I've been reading medical texts designed for students of orthodontistry?

So far I've read cover to cover:

>Adult Orthodontics, Birte Melsen
>Orthodontics at a Glance, Daljit Gill
>Contemporary Orthodontics, William R. Proffit
>Manufacturing the Orthodontic Retainer, David Lin

And a number of whitepapers and dental academy presentations.

So no, not "googling." I'm taking my research seriously.

>>741947
doesn't replace classroom learning and hands on training with a supervising professional
and anyone can read "cover to cover" but comprehension is something different

when your hubris fails you please post pictures

>>742080
Lookit this high-and-mighty anon. Perhaps *your* reading comprehension is shit/10, doesn't necessarily mean OP's is -- stop projecting. Looks to me like he's done his research, perhaps you should just fuck right off instead of being such a naysayer.
>inb4 buttflustered anon starts calling me names because he can't properly articulate his feels

>>742162
OP pls, I know that's you.

>muh add hominid

Dentalfag here.
Well first of all you could buy some dental impression material (alginate or silicone) and then pur a gypsum model from that, scan in to a software and 3d print through that. Or use that model in some other way.

Anyway, teeth naturally go back to there original position. Even if you do wear some kind of bracelet or whatever, the teeth will act to go back to there natural position.

To keep teeth in your new desired position you have to use visalign or whatever that shit was called continuously. I.e. you could sleep with it every night.

You need anyways to get "retainer" from a dentist when a satisfactory condition have been achieved.

OP secretly wants to become a Bond villain.

>>742165
lelnope.jpg
Just an anon who's curious to see how the whole thing turns out. I am, however, >>735980 and >>738016 -- perhaps you should refrain from posting in the future.

captcha: other (really digging the new captcha system, by the way)

All this talk of should he/shouldn't he try this is irrelevant and just cluttering up the thread. He's obviously already decided he is so don't bother.

If you have helpful advice that comes from some form of medical background please share it so he can limit the risks to himself and others who may try this in the future.

I myself will be looking to do something similar in the future because my bite is currently causing damage to my front teeth (both top and bottom). The amount of wear on these teeth caused by my bad bite will cause me to lose them eventually anyway so I have nothing to lose by attempting to move them into a straighter position.

Of course in an ideal world a dentist would do this for me but the costs of such dentists are beyond my financial means.

My laser finally arrived. I'm very pleased with the quality of the beam, it should provide a nice scan resolution.

Setting up the laser scanner is a project in and of itself, so progress will be slow going. I'll update here when there's anything new to show.

>>740566

Muh dummocratic views are outspoken.

>>743009
post pics of when your teeth are fucked up beyond repair.

>>732370
They also fall out. Ee

>>743171
Why don't you explain the mechanics of how you think this is going to happen, instead of shitposting?

>>743205
Who gives a shit about that guy. I want to see some pic of what you got so far.

>>743210
This.

>>743210
>implying there's only one

lurkin for lulz

>>740576
Except that doctors have the training and practice to not fuck up nearly as often as you would on your first and only attempt to do a self-liver-transplant from a freshly made cadaver.

MY Fackin teefasis! Are jacked!

I can make u teefs lika these!

>>744044
>Averagebrit.jpg

>>732364
*bad. It will end bad.

Goddammit stop using an adverb like that.

>>744044
..did you see that, ref?! REFEREE, RED CARD THAT KUNT!

>living in the US

>>744249
>>744251
lol

>>732363
DIY orthothics? You must be a gullton for punishment. That's crazy man but if you can pull it off my hat is off to you.

>>743171
+100 before and after pics please.

Maybe you use one of these companies? Clear braces made by a professional but much cheaper than invisalign.

https://www.crystalbraces.com/
http://www.dental-lab-direct.com/Invisible_Braces.php

>>745100
>$300 per aligner

This is why we need the OP.

Mother is a dentist and practices orthopedics. Would probably suggest braces then invisalign (not doctor myself I'm just a kid but I do hear problems very similar to this one quite often). The braces would help with the realignment and the invisalign would kind of act like a regular ass 'retainer' if you will to make sure the teeth stay like that. If you did get braces and those are your only two fucked up teeth then you would only get brackets put on two.. do you not have enough money for two brackets?

Anyways wouldn't your insurance cover most of these expenses maybe?

Anyway - good luck OP

>>745137
IIRC from looking at some insurance plan company at shoppers drugmart (canada, but may be similar in the usa, IDK) years ago and going from memory as I understand it the 1st year they cover X% cost of dental cleanings. 2nd yr they is when they start covering minor work and IIRC 3rd yr is when they start covering heavy dental surgury.

I faintly remember chatting witht he phamasist about the plans and them mentioning the insurance company probably wants you with them for a year to make some money off you before offering the savings on stuff like crowns, wisdom teeth removal, etc.

I was in college at the time and IIRC my enrollment had student dental coverage included (well I'm sure cost was factored in) I did not get my wisdoms removed till I was in year 2 and insurance covered the cost of the cleaning/wisdom removal. Most people have thier wisdoms removed because our jaws are not large enough to take the 4 extra teeth. Keeping them may cause teeth issues like shifting the other teeths alignment. Hope that helps.

YA BRUH,, LOOK AT MY GRILL! OBAMAMA CARE!

>>745221
Obamacare doesn't cover dental, so no change from before.

>>745234
wat? I get basic dental. haven't been able to get in yet coz the waitlists are crazy though.

>>732363
Read the first line.

LOL NOPE

NOPE NOPE NOPE

>>745122

Guess it depends how many trays are needed. $300 is a lot cheaper than a 3D printer and a vacuum forming machine, never mind all the extra stuff.

good luck OP

>>745344
I already have a 3d printer, and free access to a vacuum forming machine.

The 3d scanner is my current stumbling block, I'm having trouble getting really good scan accuracy with my jury-rigged laser scanner. I need to find a decent camera with liveview capabilities. My shitty webcam just isnt doing the trick.

>>745671

Bully for you. Doesn't change the fact that it's expensive kit for those looking to replicate your idea. Unless you've got really fucked up teeth (in which case you'd be even more insane to try DIY) you'd be better off going with an online company.

Your current idea would probably come to around $1000 give or take, hardly accessible for the average Joe.

I want you to succeed OP, but I'm also afraid for you.

>>733476
I know nothing about orthodontics but everything this guy said seems very reasonable. OP, I'd suggest you take into consideration what this guy says will and will not work before starting this.

If you're struggling with accuracy then would it not be better to go back to basics with the method? A plaster cast will always be more accurate than a 3D printed model. If you're making the model even more inaccurate with the scanner you're using then I think you're going to run into problems. Not just in getting the aligner to fit but also moving the teeth in a reliable way. I don't know the first thing about 3D printing but I imagine the ones Invisalign uses are the best of the best for ultimate accuracy.

If you make the teeth mobile on a plaster cast like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6O07UiElxo and use a precision measuring tool like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Accuracy-0-25mm-Electronic-Digital-Micrometer-Caliper-0-001mm-Resolution-UK-/331342697072?_trksid=p2054897.l4275 I imagine the end result will be pretty accurate.

I know you thought his idea of moving teeth by eye was crazy but he has been doing this for a lot longer than us, I'd like to think he knows what he's doing. Maybe he has developed the eye for it and knows how much is 0.5mm worth of movement.

I am considering adapting his method even more by cutting/sanding the teeth into full form, with roots still attached. Then do another impression, place the plaster teeth into the new mold then fill it up with wax. This would then give me a better idea where the roots are going as the teeth move. Once I'm happy with the movement I can replicate the model with more alginate/plaster and vacuum form that.

In doing some reading I found out that the FDA recommends no more than 0.5mm movement per aligner (2 weeks wear), anything less than this is safe and won't result in your teeth falling out. The reason teeth might fall out is if you move too much too soon and the gum doesn't have time to heal making the root unstable. Personally I'd stick to 0.3mm to be certain. After all, we're both just blagging it atm, neither of us really know what we're doing.

Still rooting for you OP. :)

>>746409
>Your current idea would probably come to around $1000 give or take, hardly accessible for the average Joe.

Do you know how much braces cost?

>>747349
The average Joe with a job manages to buy many things costing more than a grand if in US-land. Look at how much many Anons spend on gayming PCs.

>>747168
>neither of us really know what we're doing.
which is why you go to a professional

i'm rooting for op's roots to fall out lel
this faggotry of self medicine threads needs to stop. i thought there was a rule against it

vet the fuck over it

>>747360

Find me a dentist that will do the work I need doing for £100-£200 and I'll go to them instead. As it stands they'll only help me when I have £2000+ in the bank. Even if I had the resources to save that sort of money my front teeth would be too damaged by the time I do.

So I have 2 options;

1) Start saving for implants/dentures now.
2) Attempt to move my teeth at low cost to myself while saving for the possibility of implants/dentures if I fail.

Of course there are rules against working on others teeth when you aren't trained but in a free world I can do whatever I like to myself. I could even drill a hole in my temple if I so desired. Might get sectioned for it, but that's another story.

>>738003
Shh let him try, maybe he could undermine everything with this shit.

>>745234
It does

>>745137
wrong. Poor people get braces. I got Invisalign to correct a crossbite and crowding on my lower jaw and am approaching my last month and a half. Invisalign will do the same job as braces, but due to the high amount of precision available, and switching aligners every 2 weeks, invisalign is able to have a lower impact on the mandibles.

sure, like retainers they sit over your teeth, but like bracers, attachments are glued to some teeth for the aligners to clip on to. Both are equally equal as the other, but for aethetics, precision and ballin' Invisalign is much better

>>745344
300 PER aligner. You'll generally use 18-26 retainers, but of course it depends on the amount of tooth movement required/desired. Generally this choice will not be in your hands.

Invisalign is about $50 more than that, so I wouldn't see why you'd go to an unreputable place like that

>>732447
You are absolutely correct.

>>732532
You are partially correct. The only notable flaw in your series of statements is that you do not explicitly state and agree that while a majority of the populace is idiotic, they should still have the choice of who operates on them. Including themselves, or the neighbor next door who watches too much House.

>>748750
>they should still have the choice of who operates on them.
they do, as long as they're certified

can you imagine the shit show we would have if anyone could be a doctor?

you're a fcuking retard

>>732363
>orthoprint.wordpress.com

Op if you wond do this, I will. Go for it i have a minor proglem that i want to fix myself. All i can think about this is killing the beast of orthodoncy, that feeds on our misalignements.

Sell printer. Get braces.

>>749423
>printer costs at most 600 bucks
>braces cost 5000

Are people really this dumb?

mods pls delete

>>732363
The problem is OP, to put this in terms you can understand, to move a tooth you need to apply force to it and the surrounding teeth in correct proportions. Your software and process is only 80 percent of the equation. To move those two teeth you will need anchors (micro dots in Invisalign speak) and you do not have the materials or know how to apply that shit where and how you need it. You might not need these given your case HOWEVER you might and if you do your shit isn't going to work

Bumpity boop!

Is this the new crab meat thread?
I feel like this thread has been around for a long time.

>>752158
Yup, pretty much. Only even more retarded

>DIY orthodontics
u fukin srs?

Ofuck, this is still here?

...So does anyone know how this turned out?

>>753551

He's having issues with his scanner. Still working on it as far as I can tell.