/diy/ - Do It Yourself

you'll always need an income. the world won't stop making you pay for existing, one way or another.

>>518408
But then you'd miss out on all the incredibly shiny and awesome toys we invent over the following couple of decades.

That's essentially what my parents did. They met while studying agriculture in university then saved up for a decade to start their own farm. Growing food takes a lot of skill, you should try to get a job on a farm or take some classes on it before spending your life savings on land. You'll need to buy hoses, seeds, fertilizer, gas, etc on a regular basis so the farm needs to make you some money in addition to feeding yourself. This is what farmer's markets are for. Farming communities are still big on the barter system, so you can make a small farm that specializes in one type of vegetable and trade with neighbors for eggs, bread, etc.

>>518408
If you have a good plan laid out and actually stick to it, this is a viable goal. I'm doing that right now actually. I just sent in the tax stuff to switch over to farm taxes; which slashes my taxes in half, fyi.

The biggest thing is getting rid of all debt and not procuring more debt. That's my biggest triumph. No student loan, no credit cards, no vehicle loan, no house mortgage, zero debt. All I have to worry about are taxes, insurances, vehicle fuel/maintenance costs, and meager utilities ($18/mo electric bill, lol)

I'm pretty darn close to removing nearly all store bought foods from my diet.

>>518408
The trick is to start slow and work our way to your goal. Don't just wait and hope.
When you cannot afford your dream acreage yet, learn, connect, practice. Read about homesteading, about the climate, gardening/farming techniques, etc... talk to people that live of the land, how are they doing, how did they start, what would they do differently... start gardening, making stuff yourself, repairing instead of buying new, if you can keep a few animals (rabbits are good start)

I have to say one thing though. You will not be able to live completely isolated from the world and will still need to make money.
What if you get sick? Gas/parts for machines? Do you have GF/Wife to take car of? do you have kids? Bills for Telephone/TV/Electricity/water?
No matter how frugal you live, you will need to pay taxes!
If you really want to life all by yourself and for yourself you could produce a crop for sale, learn a trade/craft like blacksmithing/woodworking/painting/etc and sell you stuff online, you could become a author and write books or magazine articles, or you could do an online job like server admin if you have the knowledge.
Long story short you will need to make money somehow.
It sounds nice to life like a mountain man, but the reality is that the mountain man was mainly a guide and beaver trapper so he could make money.

you will probably need this too

http://www.i4at.org/library.html

This is what I am currently working up to.

Keep in mind you cant just save for a decade, then decide to go buy land. Start now. Make a compost heap, plant a garden, start collecting tools. Talk to your friends and family, more often than not they will have good advice or old equipment you can have. I managed to collect everything I needed to start blacksmithing (anvil, forge, hammer, tongs) just my mentioning offhand that I was interested in learning to my uncle in law.

If you plant a moderate sized garden right now you will get much closer to your goal.

>>518467
I have started a garden already. Got a raised bed of 6 by 12 feet. I hope I manage to get a lot of experience from that. I also plan on studying agriculture in college next year.
Here's a picture I've seen posted on homesteading. What do you guys think?

>>518482
Here's another one

>>518408
>with all the supplies you'd need to sustain yourself
You still need to work a job or have some source of income to pay property taxes, utilities insurance, fuel for vehicle(s), medical insurance/expenses, etc. You can't live completely "off the grid" unless you want to have a standard of living like a couple hundred years ago, and have a short lifespan due to illness/disease. Sorry that's just the way it is.

>>518482
>>518484
What's the water source? This is not something to overlook. Farming areas tend not to have access to a municipal water supply, you'll need a well or pipes to a lake/river if that exists. If water isn't plentiful year round you will need to dig a pond/reservoir to hold some.

Where do you plan to get the fruit trees? It can be decades to go from seedlings to fruit producing trees. Fully grown trees aren't cheap and transplanting them is usually so stressful on them they don't produce much fruit for a couple years.

Depending on the vegetables you want to grow and the climate you live in it could be a very good idea to use greenhouses.

im thinking of doing this, going nomad, or just killing myself (in order of difficulty)

>>518526
>It can be decades to go from seedlings to fruit producing trees

It usually takes about 5 years, if the trees are fed and watered properly.

>>518414
Unfortunately this will (almost) always be the case. I've heard of extreme cases where guys hiked into open wilderness, built cabins and lived unnoticed for decades - but most anywhere ESPECIALLY in the US you'll be subject to at the very least taxes on the land. This could be overcome without an income, but it would mean saving and budgeting for retirement. It seems like a fools dream, but I share in it and I can imagine there are those in power that would prefer it be seen as simply that - a fools dream. I'm no hardcore tinfoil conspiracy guy, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that encouraging homesteading would be damaging to the powers that be.

>>519559
that.
Income is important and eventually you WILL need money, and more then you think. my advice, work on a farm for a while. Start as a farm hand/ manual laborer. then try to get more and more into the ag business.
Eventually you will be able to own/run your own farm/ranch/whatever.

I life on a 75acre property, raise cattle, hogs, chickens and rabbits, 4 acres of wine grapes, 2 acres of organic vegetables, 5 acres of alfalfa hay, 1-3 ish acres of fruit trees (they are all about the place) about 20-30 acres or woods here and there.
We have 2 wells, a small creek and a good sized river; 1x 15000 water tower, 3x 30000gallons water tanks.
We have city electricity, but also 2 propane generators (one for the water pumps) and a small solar array. When the power goes out, we could keep some of the lights on for about 3-4 hours, but running water for over a week.
I make most of my own vegetables and meat, I process much of the food here on site as this cuts out a middle man and makes me more money, I am as sufficient as i want to be.

The idea of living all by yourself sounds nice, until you face the reality. One bad harvest, and you will starve over winter.
There is another word for Homesteader, its called subsistence-farmer. Think about that.

Depends on where you buy land. You will also need to dig a well and be able to water your crops assuming you can grow them. As others have pointed out, you will need to pay land tax but you could make enough money from farmers markets to get by. Farming as a business is very hard as you must have lots of land and high tech machinery to make up for the tiny amount of money you will get from selling your crops. Prices haven't increased from inflation the same way other goods have. My cousin is now retired and grows crops on a small 100 acre section of land he bought for fun. Most of it is sold and used for animal feed. One of his friends suggested renting the land for fattening up cattle then split the profits at the end of the year when the animals are twice as big. This is a good idea in theory as he assumes no loss if the cattle get sick. He also doesn't get paid for sickly or dead cattle. I think wind and solar power would be a must as the Amish life isn't for everyone. You will still need to run into town for gas when mother nature doesn't provide enough power. It is possible to live off the grid but sacrifices will need to be made and you probably will die earlier than average life expectancy.

>>519563
That setup... hnnnng.

While you have a good point on the bad harvest thing, our means of storing food are vastly superior to those of the past. Where people previously used spices up the wahoo not for flavor but for preservation, we can preserve food for far longer and are no longer at the mercy of a single harvest but can effectively utilize several years worth of harvests. This does require, however, the budgeting of what you do successfully harvest in order to accumulate enough in store in case of a bad harvest - which I can imagine would mean planning for more than what you'd actually need in order to have left overs.

Budgeting, budgeting, budgeting.... I think that a person of sound mind and experience could do it. It's never a bad idea to have friends or foster a community, though.

>>518408

You could try living on a boat.

>>519568
Thanks, I love the place and its a great place to raise kids.
you are right about storing food. The problem is "how?"

Freezing; pro,works great and you can make things lost for decades. con, costs lots of electricity to run a big enough freezer.

drying; pro, proven method that works on a variety of foods. con, some foods only last a few weeks (like meat), tastes degrades, nutritional value loss.

dehydrating (freeze drying), pro, foods can last for decades. con, texture becomes 'spongy' and the equipment is VERY expensive.

Canning in jars. pro, can make finished meals, heat and serve, proven method, food can last from 2- 30 years depending on the food and the acidity (more acidic= lasts longer), equipment can be bought everywhere and is relatively cheap (spend 1000$ and you are golden for a few years, after that you only need lids and jars if the they break, about 50-100$/year sounds about right). con, Can't think of one to be honest, that's why I have been doing it for a while.

root-cellar; pro, no operation costs once you build it, food is ready to be eaten, little loss in taste/texture/nutrients. con, it might cost a bit to set up, food will last through winter but not much longer, does not work in every climate. Given the negligible operation costs and easy of use, it is stupid not to build one if you have the space.

my 2cents on the subject. I will keep this thread open if someone have a question, but answers might be slow. I got land to work after all :)

>>519602
>Freezing; pro,works great and you can make things lost for decades. con, costs lots of electricity to run a big enough freezer.

Biggest cons are freezer burn and electric outages.

>>519602
Canning was really what I had in mind, and I'm glad to see you had trouble finding cons in the method which strengthens my faith in it.

Have you ever had a jar go bad? I'd imagine that some meats without additives would go before some would think, even with pressure sealing and all.

>>it's way too small. you need at least twice as much land or thrice i would even say.
maybe on theory that surface area is enough to feed one person, but you have to take into account that in agriculture, shit never go as planned, and you might get mildew, or a pest or whatever and lose half your vegetables over night.
thus you must produce twice or three times more than you actually need, just in case.

also you need a barn and a big workshop, and also a forest nearby, possibly a water source too. and many other things you're not thinking about right now

conclusion:
nothing is as simple as it seems. or how einstein said, what seems easy, is what you know nothing about.
especially agriculture

>>518486
>You can't live completely "off the grid" unless you want to have a standard of living like a couple hundred years ago
true
>and have a short lifespan due to illness/disease. Sorry that's just the way it is.
not true

>>519653
meant as a reply to
>>518482
>>518484

>>519647
when we first started out sometimes jars went bad, by now very rarely. common mistakes are: not cleaning the rim or the jar properly and the seal would not be perfect; not making sure that there are no air bobbles; packing too tight; not using the right pressure/time.
There is a bit of a learning curve, but once you know what to look for you rarely loose a jar. If something does not seal right, guess wants for dinner.
When we can meat we cut it up in chunks (1-2in) and add some kind of sauce like goulash, tomato, broth, or something. You can process ground meat, but you have to add a lot of sauce, think of thin chilly soup.
When a jar goes bad you can tell by 1) mold 2) the air seal is broken 3) smell. If in doubt, don't eat it; its nor worth the botulism.
color is not a very good indicator as some foods will naturally turn darker or lighter depending on what it is.

The main problem is meat and some root vegetables. They should be pressure canned at what ever time and pressure is right for where you life (depends on altitude).
The easiest thing to start out with are jams, jellies and marmalade. No need to pressure can, you only need a big enough pot of boiling water, jars, fruit, sugar and pectin. If you want to go as simple as possible: equal parts fruit and sugar (by weight) boil all this down, fill in HOT jars, hand tighter lid+ring (not too much, air might need to escape), put jars in boiling water bath for about 15-25 minutes (depending on the size of your jar). take them out and let cool. if they develop a seal (the pop or the lid) they will be good for 6-12 months at least, but i have eaten strawberries jam like that that was 4 years old and it tasted just as good as this years.
I have done this with strawberries, blackberries, cherries, watermelon, cantaloupe, peaches, and a few other that i cannot think of right now.

>>519704
Where do you get sugar when off the grid?

>>519796
I'm not him, but you can grow your own sugar beets or sugar cane in most places and take care of bees. That's all the sweeteners you need.

It's sounds very Thoreau in here and that is great. I love the sight of raised bed gardens and talk of tap-able water sources.

I've contemplated making a sustainable living out of the way of society, but always have come back to the point that these exploits need funding. OP, have you considered seasonal or temporary work such as teaching Summer school or being a farm hand? Work less than half the year and make enough to pay for electricity, extra food and/or internet. If anyone can suggest good temp jobs I'd be glad to jot them down and anyone here have experience with backyard fish farming?

Here's some things off the top of my head as I left my full binder at home.
-Rain water catcher for watering crops, and a well for potable water.
-Securing mulch for garden by harvesting bags of leaves from people and mixing with horse manure.
-Root vegetables are easy to grow in my experience, even in poor soil and if forgotten.
-Chickens are easily the easiest animals to keep, they have a high output to little upkeep in my opinion and cheap enough to replace.
-Solar Panels are expensive, power a steam=>electricity engine with your own solar scorcher:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrje73EyKag

Links
-http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/
-http://www.backyardchickens.com/
-http://www.sustainabletable.org/

>>519796
me again.
I get sugar from Cosco.
I never said i am off the grid, and i also don't think it is a very good idea. Modern society and conveniences are great. When i get sick i go to the doctor, when i want to have oranges i go to a store, when i want to buy a car i will not fucking build it myself.
I try to make as much as i can myself, but everything within reason. I am not a philosopher or idealist (even though some have described me as such). How would you make salt? How about pens, pencils and paper? Are you going to glass-blow your own canning jars? gun power for hunting? cast your own bullets, from lead you mined yourself, with a pick axe that you blacksmithed yourself on and anvil that ..... you see where this is going.
This is not Minecraft, In economics and business there is a something called "make or buy analysis". For example, I can buy Swiss chard for 3-8$ per hand full, or I can grow it for 3-5cents per bushel (more or less a 5 gallon bucked) guess which one i will do. another example, I could buy a new tractor for 10,000-50,000$ (depending on make, age, hp, etc), or i could spend 6 months learning to weld, 2 years industrial metal casting, 4 years getting a mechanical engineering degree (would be less, bc i have done engineering in the past), spend about 500,000 on a brand new machine shop, 100,000 on materials and build it myself. yeah, or not.
I do no about things like http://opensourceecology.org they try to make everything them self, i think it is great and that it could work, but it is not the right thing for me. I have too much on my hands as is.

Seriously, No single person on earth is able to make everything they will every use all by themselves.

>>519846
>-Rain water catcher for watering crops, and a well for potable water.
right on, use rain for crops if you have enough, if not irrigate with well water. Find a property with a river or two as well, make sure it is clean and not polluted. find a spring as well when you can. You cannot life without water, get as many backup plans as you can.

>-Securing mulch for garden by harvesting bags of leaves from people and mixing with horse manure.
yup, if you have enough property you will have enough compost. a few animals can make a lot of manure, 3 horses make about 10-15 gallons worth of manure (with shavings). that is a lot of shit! mix it with 50% (+/- 20%) and have good compost in about 3-6 months. lots of variables her, but there are a lot "it depends" in making compost (number/kind of worms, number/kind of bacteria, number/kind of fungi, number/kind archaea, average temperature, temperature difference in day/night moisture content of material, humidity, aeration, and on and on and on...
I recommended manure tea. Mix 1/3 manure with 2/3 water, add 2 tbsp sugar for every 5 gallons (more or less), if you can get a 15$ aquarium aerateer and let it bobble for about 1-2 weeks, Done. Either add 1 cup undiluted to the base of each plant or better yet dilute 10/1 with water (it will look like ice tea) and spray as a foliage feeder. The microorganisms will protect your plants against MANY pests and diseases. use it about one a week to once a month.

>-Root vegetables are easy to grow in my experience, even in poor soil and if forgotten.
sort of. if you have heavy clay soil forget root vegetables. You can grow them (I am, too) but you need to add a lot of sand, compost, and organic matter (like peat moss) to make it viable.
Continue

>>519923
>No single person on earth is able to make everything they will every use all by themselves.
How cook would a self-sustaining community be?

>>519846
>>519931

On plants:
green manuring. If the climate allows it, plant stuff like 'hairy vetch' over winter and before it sets seed mow it down and either incorporate in the soil or better add compost on top and plant your plant right inside there.
This will reduce your need to fertilize by a LOT if not completely remove it.

Learn companion planting. Carrots, tomatoes, Marigolds and Basil. plant all these in the same bed or at least very close to each other. each repels the others major pests and therefore reduces your pesticide use a lot, if not completely removes it.

When I say Fertilizer and Pesticide I don't mean harsh chemicals than can destroy the delicate soil-food-web, but stuff like neem oil.

BTW: on Soil food web, read "Teaming with microbes" then you will understand the chemistry and biology of soil more. Most gardeners and farmers are far too much concerned with what happens above the soil, when the most import part happens underneath the plant.


>Chickens are easily the easiest animals to keep, they have a high output to little upkeep in my opinion and cheap enough to replace.
Chickens are great and a staple on nearly all farms. We have a few, too. you can expect about 1 egg per day per chicken. So don't get too many, 3-5 is more then enough for a family. If you bake a lot or want to sell them, get 5-6, but that would be 12 eggs every 2 days, or 168 eggs a month!
Chickens will also not lay eggs in winter (or in very very hot weather).

Think about rabbits. easy to keep hutches, need little food and water, reproduce fast, good source of protein with little fat, pelts for sale or crafts.

>>519936
>How cook would a self-sustaining community be?
? not sure what you mean? how would they cook?

>>519940
*Cool
Forgive me, I just had a test and am a little burnt out.

>>519923
>Hello, I am a tremendous faggot that is trying to shit on your fun by trying to nitpick dumb things.

The idea is that you live out on your own in a place that you can (hopefully mostly) power yourself and grow your own food. Nobody ever said anything about sealing themselves in a biodome on the moon. People even mentioned living close enough to a town.

What's the matter? Aren't there enough storage container threads for you ATM?

>>519942
not very likely none the less. Just think about cloths; someone needs to grow the cotton or raise sheep, then someone needs to spin the fibers into yarn, someone needs to dye the yarn, then weave into fabric, someone needs to sew them into cloths, if you want buttons someone needs the make them (good luck making a zipper by the way).

growing cotton is though. needs lots of fertilizer, and every pest on the planet seams to home in on it. That's why it is so heavily subsidized by the gov; because otherwise an All US t-shirt would cost about 40-60 dollars to make; yeah fuck that.
And this is simple clothing, nothing fancy.

Now think about the harder stuff, like electronics, machinery, pharmaceuticals or again, salt. If you want to live completely independent (even as a community) there would be heavy setbacks and you would be very limited to where you live.

no ocean or salt mine? no salt. No sandy beaches or silica deposits? no glass. Someone broke a leg? good look building an Xray machine.

how about knowledge. Information is a form of product, at least for the simple reason that you can buy and sell it. You could not buy books, learn from others, would would not be able to go online or use electricity.

>>519946
well.... someone DID ask if i make sugar myself.... so yeah.

>>519946
In all fairness, he's probably been the largest contributor ITT and has been asked questions throughout.

>>519955
No one asked me questions or even replied to my posts: >>518419 and >>519805

>>519805
I forgot maple syrup too.

For everyone who likes to poke holes, let me say, that most of us do not want to disconnect ourselves from society, but to give ourselves more control of where our food comes from and to be a level of frugal that many cannot attain with regular living.

>>518419
How did I not see your post before, your diagram is a little haphazard but it looks like you are well on your way to something many of us are still only speculating about.

>>519936
Hell yeah, everyone jump on and we'll ride this solar powered train built with free salvaged parts too economic independence! But seriously it's an interesting topic that many on here have debated.

>>519949
Salt might definitely be something you'll have to buy unless you can get to a beach and spend a few weeks a year collecting the stuff. As for machinery or technology you'll just have to get lucky at a yard sale or perhaps a scrap yard. If you want things you can't make you'll have to make money.

>>520144
>How did I not see your post before

Because you were focusing on the debate.

>your diagram is a little haphazard

Quite so, it was a brainstorm session with more than one person. I've been doing a large complicated version of it in Photoshop with many layers, but is no where near finished.

I feel a person can be as self-sustaining as their government will allow them to be. For instance, you can't escape property taxes, so you always need some sort of income to pay those off. There are other things, but that is totally dependent on the local government. Everything else is doable if you have the knowledge and drive to actually do it.

>>518417
lel gas
>not using biodiesel grown and refined on your own farm
>2023
>yfw

>>518486
if you have enough money to start up you sure as shit could live off of the grid. people do it every day and still have electricity, heat, hot showers, good clean food, and dont have to waste gas to get 3/4 of what they need because they produce
gtfo ATF

Good luck with the effectively early hardworking retirement.
Make sure the state you settle in
a) has decent soil, rain, and weather
b) doesn't have rainwater collection laws and such/ fracking occurring everywhere
c) has an industry/banks/investment opportunities(don't put all your eggs in one basket) to pay the bills and incidentals (expect at the very least when you are as self sufficient as you get 4000.00 a year

d) goats, for milk/ lawn and weeding/pets/keep assholes out

e) growth charts and plans like growing corn, beans, and squash together/ growing one different crop after another(collect seeds/look up inheritance crops)

f) Poplars are a good source of fast growing soft wood/ grow wood to control erosion/wind/provide fuel/furniture/repairs/income(think amish made wood furniture)

g)salt(either local sources or stores(cheap)) sugar(beats(or stores)) water(wells(rainwater if allowed(enough))) Cisterns (more than one if one goes bad) rain barrels(uv proof plastic is best(reinforce with wood)) that crop chart does work though you'd do to remember some factors( apple trees/orange/peach/etc) perennial crop produce/vegetables(just remember to fertilize with crap/compost/etc

Separate and process all your own garbage, can your own goods/ be mindful of dangers/problems with canning, process your own foods via cooking, dehydrating(easiest in desert climates(not the crops unless its in greenhouses(ironically the hail and wind damage will most likely be fully covered via insurance if done right) INSURANCE!!! AAAANNNND THIS THREAD MAY DIE

i want one of these

Good plan. I'd recommend that you look into moving to central or south America once you have your nest egg built up though.
One can live a simple life for crazy cheap in countries like panama, paraguay or uruguay. Even mexico.

Commit your entire life to saving money and educating yourself in preparation for doing this.