/diy/ - Do It Yourself

>>1586473
jesus dude fucking give it up already, nobody cares.

>>1586484
>jesus dude fucking give it up already, nobody cares.

>>1586473
Trashy and cheap is the american way.

>>1586473
superior genetics

>>1586473
Well if you pay 80% of your income to the government and you’re forced to live in gov’t housing because the high taxes made you dirt poor, I would hope that those taxes are paying for quality building material.

>>1586473
Concrete is a European technology you dumb nigger

Thanks for saving me money, it's nice not having to pay rent.

>>1586473

This can't be the original obsessed faggot, he didn't open the thread with several paragraphs of pseudo deep thoughts.

>>1586473
>coming to a nepalese basket weaving forum for validation on your building materials

>>1586473
North America is so fucken behind in brick technology...

Anyway--I want to ask you a challenging question.

In North America it's easy as pie to mount things to the wall, and demolish walls and renovate. Often times in renovation, clearing separation between kitchen and dining room is a big deal---and demolishing walls is easy.

Further more, repairing leaking plumbing is also much easier to detect and repair (and replace the water damaged dry wall).

Repairing and preventative maintenance on brick work takes a seasoned professional and costs a hell of a lot.

Just some things for you to consider and discuss.

If you want to mount something in a brick house, you gotta use a hammer drill and make holes in the brick...not cool.

>>1586768
>If you want to mount something in a brick house, you gotta use a hammer drill and make holes in the brick...not cool.
In our house there's a layer of plaster in which it's easy to insert thumb nails to attach posters or something. For heaver object you can use big nails or screws with wall plugs.
How do you even attach a reasonably sized object to drywall? Doesn't it just fall apart? I mean, a fist is all you need to demolish that shit.

>>1586777
You attach them the same way as you described basically, just using different stuff. It doesn't fall apart, and they can bear a fair amount of weight just mounted on the cladding alone.

You don't seem to understand that the forces at play from drunkenly punching a hole in a wall are completely different from holding up a shelf or a painting.

>>1586789
I've some experience with drywall, but can you please enlighten me how you attach a book shelve that will weight 20-30kg's or more?
I honestly have no idea how you achieve that without reinforcing the wall.

>>1586768
>you gotta use a hammer drill
So what? If all you need it for is a few holes in your wall you can get the cheapest shittiest hammer drill for 20 bucks.

>>1586473
Eurofag here. Can someone give me a good video or something to see how American houses are usually built?

pic related or not, dunno

>>1586777
>How do you even attach a reasonably sized object to drywall?
These are impressively strong.

>>1586814
Still don't see how that could come anywhere close to pic related.

>>1586808
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3iI6S7TuCA

>>1586816
>Still don't see how that could come anywhere close to pic related.
They are about 10x stronger than those chinsy plastic drywall plugs.

>>1586768
>clearing separation between kitchen and dining room is a big deal
easy as fuck if its not load bearing take a sledgehammer and rip it out. clean the edges and plaster+paint youre done
if load bearing usually a foot thick get some professional help you may need a lintel or a pillar.

>repairing leaking plumbing is also much easier to detect and repair (and replace the water damaged dry wall)
do your plumbing right no leaks since the plumbing got installed 70years ago.
if a pipe leaks then you fix it and wait for the wall to dry out it doesn't mold your osb away.

>Repairing and preventative maintenance on brick work takes a seasoned professional and costs a hell of a lo
its not like brick walls have to be maintained regularly besides painting them every 15ears
maybe in 200 year old house with exposed bricks has some bricks deteriorated chisel them out get one of the spare bricks out of the basement and concrete it in.
also what the fuck is a seasoned professional .

>mount something in a brick house, you gotta use a hammer drill and make holes in the brick...not cool.
pro tip you a small cordless drill is enough to drill bricks and the mortar between them.

mounting options on brick
1.hang a picture get a small nail and hammer it in the plaster.
2.some thing heavier get some steel nails and hammer them in the concrete.
3.use a drill f
3.b only for poured concrete you need a hammer drill.

>>1586819
>no foundation
What the heck, is this normal?

I watched another one, they did do the foundation here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbYrGaoWIec
So much wood, though. I guess you have to drench that in chemicals? Can it survive a fire?

>>1586794
You set the mounting screws into the vertical wall studs spaced 16" 40.64cm apart

>>1586825
>What the heck, is this normal?
Not in my observations---the only reason why I chose that video was because it showed the interior better than other videos...and the sound track was "shreddin'"

Here is what I was debating on sending you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBIa3M9XJeM

It's a shitty house with no basement---usually foundation is poured into wooden molds--reinforced with rebar.

>>1586828
>>1586794
This---you're going to need a stud finder.

My recommendation---don't cheap out and get a shit one, they don't work well.

>>1586814
>>1586816
unlike you i actually looked it up
biggest drywall screw from a German company 0,11kN 26lbs
the plastic plug pic is aprox 5mmx60mm from same company in brick 0,6kN 145lbs

>>1586789
Just for reference, this shelving unit was attached to the internal cladding in my house when I first bought it a few months ago, since been taken off the wall. It was attached to Masonite cladding only, with maybe ten or so screws. It was probably on there for a couple decades with apparently no issue.

Sure, I'd have recommended screwing it into studs, but the walls can support a good bit of weight by themselves. You just need to be sensible about it.

>>1586842
Most people can drive around without a seatbelt for their entire life and never have a problem.

>>1586849
>Most people can drive around without a seatbelt for their entire life and never have a problem.

Until that day when someone screws up, and if you had worn it your entire life you wouldn't have to endure 20 surgeries to give you a slightly human face again.

>>1586473
Aaah you again,
I always enjoy thess threads.
Keep it up.
brick'tard.

>>1586473
*laughs in galvanized*

>>1586602
>rome
>Europe
>not North Africa
lol got me with that one there anon

>>1586768
>hammer drill
>for bricks
wat

I never used a hammer drill for my red bricks and didn't even use masonry bits, just ordinary bits for metal. Works fine.

>>1586777
Screw into a stud bud

>>1586825
In climates where it never freezes, like texas California, or never freeze and have a low water table like florida, you don't need a basement or frost footings and you can build on a slab because the earth doesn't move from freezing.
As for fire, each room of each house had its walls and ceiling covered in drywall which is 'fireproof' and you cant have a livable room without the ceiling having drywall to stop flame spread to that floor's. Also remember wood doesn't burn instantly, it's build so that there is enough time to get out and safe, not to save the house. Things are so cheap you can take doze and rebuild a house cheaper than a gut of a burned out brick house.
It's just different mentalities on living.
Americans spend an average of 7 years in a house before they move, not generations like yall europoors. We aren't attached because it's cheap and easy to move someplace else

>>1586473

Everything europeans do is more refined than what americans due. Americans are the bydlos of the the reasonably civilised world.

European cars are faster, quieter, more efficient and handle better.
European houses are of sturdy construction and well insulated.
European food is diverse and refined, american food is plant fibers with HFCS and artificial flavours.

>>1587020
Some of Ancient Rome's richest provinces were in North Africa so the Parthenon probably was funded by there.

>>1587439
This is lazy, build one anyway just in case. Spain is pretty much identical to California yet they build their houses with foundations.

>>1586582
>Americans actual think like this
whew lad

>>1586814
Is "drywall" the same as plasterboard? Your pic related are absolute shit in plasterboard.

>>1586816
I prefer pic related. So much better than previous incarnations.

>>1587271
Then you have some cheap ass red bricks.

>>1587293
But what if my studs are 2" to the left of where it need to be, so my <thing> isn't central on the wall?

>>1588007

>>1588049
Bricks for the inner part are not as hard as the outer bricks. It could be that drilling in the outer bricks wouldn't work with my tool/bit. Never tried it.
But I also managed it without impact and carbide bits to drill 6cm into concrete. Burned 3 HSS bits, tho.
Hilti rules.

>>1588043
>Your pic related are absolute shit in plasterboard.

That's because you don't know how to use them properly, they're very strong in shear-loads

>>1588158
If they don't go in properly the first time they make a mess of the plasterboard rendering that point useless for another attempt.
Get one into the plasterboard properly, screw something to it, great. Undo screw to remove thing from wall and your pic related comes out with the screw and never goes back into the hole reliably.
Once in properly you're right in that they are good with shear loads (just like plasplugs), but they are not good if you need to adjust the thing they are holding, or remove it and fix something else to the wall using the same installation.

>>1586473
yurop never got the hang of good floor plans
while we were doing pic related, you guys still had kitchens with no connection to the dining room, and WCs with toilets but no sink

>>1586473 (OP)
yurop never got the hang of good floor plans
while we were doing pic related, you guys still had kitchens with no connection to the dining room, and WCs with toilets but no sink

>>1586768
>clearing separation between kitchen and dining room
the worst fad of our era
>mount something
back in the day there were these moldings called 'picture rails' so you wouldn't need to make holes in the wall

>>1588050
Get a longer screw and put it in at an angle.

>>1588001
ok muhammad

>>1588243
But then the load bearing goes to shit.

Wow, it's this thread again.
Cool.

>>1586473
>higher population density
>dwindling natural resources
>Europoor
Let's not forget a regulatory environment in the US that favors traditional construction techniques, as well as a mature material and construction pipeline that efficiently turns middle-class paychecks into hookers and blow for wall street bank executives (and their wives.)

>>1588008
I would say most homes have foundations/basements in America and it is an exception, not the norm, to not have them

>>1586582
>Well if you pay 80% of your income to the government and you’re forced to live in gov’t housing because the high taxes made you dirt poor, I would hope that those taxes are paying for quality building material.
>>1588039
>>Americans actual think like this

this is actually true, Americans got us figured out, their houses are very affordable even for my 2nd world country standard. What I dont understand is why dont they trickle down the brick build technology and make it affordable?

>>1586768
>mount things to the wall

it is more work but also more reliable, drywall mounts can hold a lot but concrete holds are a different thing. regarding pumbing, even in older builds it just doesnt fail that often. more work? definetly. drilling into reinforced concrete with a pneumatic drill makes you feel like an egyptian slave building pyramids.

>>1586808
>Eurofag here

trust me, you dont want to see it.

>>1586825
>>no foundation
>What the heck, is this normal?

not normal, but common. look up the grain on the wood they use for loading and cringe...

>>1586892
>*laughs in galvanized*

its an overpriced meme, just use brick bro...

pricing difference...

ok, story time, so my mate started building a house with his bro on a relatively non expensive location, its cost him around 50k+50k in burger money just for raw house build, no facade, no electrics, no finished plumbing, no furniture, nothing, just the skeleton for 100k burgers on credit.

so smth like pic rel but slightly smaller, 100k and expenses will be more to finish (probably another 50-100k to finish), so yeah, euro build is better quality but more expensive, americans do have better options for cheaper homes.

>>1586892
Garbage

>>1588388
I know you shill for those red bricks, but if you had to build a cheap house in yuroland what would you use?

>>1588191
>clearing separation between kitchen and dining room
I fucking HATE this shit. It’s so ugly, why do you want to see your kitchen from the rest of your house anyway? I’m a realtor and people always throw a fit when it’s not open or there’s a load-bearing wall between the kitchen and dining/living room. Why would you want your house to look like a studio apartment?
Fuck open floorplans.

>>1586473
Because USA bricks were designed to be made by slaves and to stop bullets.

>>1588243
Yeah ... no.

>>1588382
>Humble croatian red aerated terracota brick salesmen
doubt.png

>>1589024
>>1588191
these anons are right. I like my clearly divided rooms, gives a sense of privacy and lets you do different levels of trim or greater changes in color etc...

>>1588382

Hello my Croatian friend. The reason brick won't be cheap is because of the energy input required to mine the materials, transportation of said materials, then you have refinement, forming, and finally but most energy intensive, firing. It's a lot of electricity/fuel that needs to be used to produce a brick, and energy prices have generally been steadily rising almost everywhere in the world.
OSB in contrast takes comparatively fuck all energy input to manufacture and can be claimed to be more environmentally friendly. Instead of fired clay brick you need to look into geopolymer cement.

>>1589259
Half of it is just due to labour costs though. It takes more labour hours, and better skilled people to lay a brick wall than to nail OSB in place.

>>1589259
Now take into account the durability. Brick doesn't melt when it rains.

>>1589024
>I fucking HATE this shit. It’s so ugly, why do you want to see your kitchen from the rest of your house anyway? I’m a realtor and people always throw a fit when it’s not open or there’s a load-bearing wall between the kitchen and dining/living room. Why would you want your house to look like a studio apartment?
>Fuck open floorplans.
Well most people want a house to live in rather than a show piece. Majority of people don't have personal chefs so when cooking its easier to interact with other occupants of the house, spend time together, make sure little timmy is setting fire to things, etc.

>>1589451
>Brick doesn't melt when it rains.

everything is shit when not protected properly

>>1589007
>but if you had to build a cheap house in yuroland what would you use?

red aerated + concrete is pretty standard, I would build smaller using that method I guess. Difference between that and cheaper methods like pre-cast drywall buidls here isnt significant sicne industry is standardized around concrete and bricks so the price is way lower compared to non-continental europe.

>>1589024
>Why would you want your house to look like a studio apartment?

its a fad you cant live without today, just like ugly furniture laquered out of existence and kitchets with high gloss and gimmicky pricey methods of opening it (that fail often btw), very similar to a must have electronic windows on cars

>>1589259
>The reason brick won't be cheap is because of the energy input required to mine the materials, transportation of said materials, then you have refinement, forming, and finally but most energy intensive, firing.

sure its more work than OSB, but think about how cellphones got cheaper and laptops and they used to cost a fortune, its not about absolute ammount of labour but about creating levels of acceptability.

>>1589461
>everything is shit when not protected properly

there are levels to brick quality, even with the simple solid red brick from your pictures...problem is that you only see the quality after 30 or 100 years of exposure. cro brick is of solid medium quality, but brits have pretty high quality bricks.

>>1589453
>Well most people want a house to live in
you know what makes a house a house? functional rooms
>rather than a show piece
people do this to show off their kitchens and you know it
>when cooking its easier to interact with other occupants of the house
no one who actually cooks does this
>spend time together
in the fucking kitchen?
>little timmy etc.
give your kids room to grow, miss helicopter mom

>>1589453
You seem to be very confused. The whole point of an open kitchen is to be a showpiece that isn't used for cooking.

>>1589672
>>1589685
You are wrong or living in a very depressing area culturally. The kitchen is the heart of the house.

>>1589715
this is 4chan, the computer room is the heart of the house

>>1589715
This is bullshit. Are you the kind of person that has a TV in the kitchen? Jesus. In my house, when I was single, I lived in the bedroom. When I got a GF I lived in the living room. When I was a kid, it was the living room also. Who the fuck hangs out in a kitchen? Most kitchens don't even have any place to sit down. When we ate we ate in the dining room. The kitchen is where you go to fix food and do dishes. The only people that hang out in kitchens are those poor assholes that don't have a real house or have a 'breakfast nook' in the kitchen. Those suck btw.

>>1589728

>>1586473
They've had more practice since a bunch of their buildings were blown to shit during WW2. Not sure about the russians though.. must be too cold to bother the construction workers to stay outside long enough to build anything too fancy. They get a pass.

>>1589757
What the fuck is there to do in a modern livingroom other than nap or fuck? What cromag still watches tv on a tv?

>>1589849
Only plebs don't have their own custom htpc connected to their tv to watch animu and play roms.

>>1586473
Because yurocucks have a bbc cuckold porn fetish

>>1589715
The irony. If you're in such backwards poverty that the kitchen is the heart of the house, move back in with the tribe so you'll have enough manpower to cobble together mud huts with more than one room. Then people won't have to scream to hear each other over the banging of pots and pans, cough over spicy fumes, blast the TV to hear anything over cooking noise, scrape greasy residue off all the furniture, make guests look at the unsightly workspace, or risk having little kids get burned when they run around underfoot and knock things over while someone's cooking.

Here in civilized countries, we solve all these problems and more by having living rooms.

>>1589849
People who have families and friends. Well, that makes what I wrote before redundant, since you don't have anyone to talk to or take care of, but it makes it all the more ironic that you think having family and friends is "a very depressing area culturally."

>>1588668
Yes, it is made of recycled tin cans
>>1588382
It is cheaper then timber for some reason. It is cheaper then bricks

>>1590001
>not having parents that cook a lot of food
you missed out

>>1586495
>Trashy and cheap is the american way.
>>1586473


All jokes aside, (I love Americans), I remember memoires of one traveler from (not existing at the time) Poland, like, in late 1890's or early 1900's.
He was really shocked how quickly entire blocks/buildings ware emerging in new towns/districts, in USA.
And it was during what we now call industrial revolution, where entire industrial towns ware being constructed in no time, all over Europe (like Łódź).

I guess 'Murricans praise efficiency over everything, is all, and they don't give a fuck if the building still stands 50 years later.

>>1590075
>I guess 'Murricans praise efficiency over everything, is all, and they don't give a fuck if the building still stands 50 years later.

Im not sure how true that critique is (I do like to outbanter them on their shitty builds and bad taste) - Burgerland is a very young country actually and they really acomplished a lot in that short time. When they want to they can do proper builds - look up Southern mansions, georgian mansions, american craftsman...all very good quality builds, from working to upper class.

Todays level of their construction quality is just totally bizzare - but its still ridiculously affordable even for Croatian or Polish standard, imagine buying a house for 70k eur in Europe...what is also interesting is how even Brits have significantly different build style compared to continental Europe, but done in high quality compared to Burgers.


PS- amerifrens, dont bomb me or put me on the watch list, Im an apple pie big tits V8 muscle car man

>>1586473
Aus fag were. We only have 24 million people that's around the same as the city of shanghai china. We don't have the population numbers to support over priced and over engineered building materials. Everyone here has so much room it's weird when someone builds a two storey house.

So why should we use your space blocks when what we're doing is just fine already? Sure we import that stuff when it's needed but you suggest we always use it and make our construction more expensive for lols?

Are all euro fags as dumb as you?

>>1586602
fun annecdote about the ceiling on this thing-
It's made from different types of concrete as you go up, with each using different types of stone. The highest section uses volcanic rock, which is super porous. It's less than half as dense as ordinary concrete. Pretty amazing that they used such technology over a thousand years ago when they thought you could cure illness by bloodletting- really makes you think about the difference between modern civil engineers and medical doctors lel

>>1590075

>I guess 'Murricans praise efficiency over everything, is all, and they don't give a fuck if the building still stands 50 years later.

Generally speaking most contractors and buyers realize that tech will change so much in 50 years that a total gut + rebuild would be needed for most projects. Modern electrical wiring was only made standard 50 years ago, anything older then that and insurance companies will want the owner to yank it all out and replace it. And homes even just 30 years ago often came with single pane windows or cast iron pipes. Central HVAC only became a standard 20 years ago.

To put it more clearly, 50 years ago if you wanted communications in a room you did a twin-lead to a roof antenna. Then coax came and replaced it, but anyone who did that would quickly find themselves having to run a totally new coax line for cable TV in the 80s. On top of this, DSL started happening so phone lines would often need to be reconfigured (especially for rural installs, many of which still had party lines) for a modem. Then in the 90s ethernet popped up for LANs, so you'd have to install that on top of a new coax split for a new broadband modem in the 00s. Then in the early 10s we got fiber optics. This either entails ripping everything out every 10 years or building a house in a way that allows for easier modification.

>>1590321
>Central HVAC only became a standard 20 years ago.

which third world country do you hail from

>>1590325

California. I find 90s-built homes without central heating/AC all the time, it's where a lot of my work comes from. It wasn't universally the case but it just wasn't a standard feature demanded by buyers like it is now. Only with the millennium did standards increase and the market responded.

>>1586473
>Pay ~250k USD for a small apartment
>Go on youtube and watch american DIY people yeehaw a full size house for cheaper

>>1589024
Glad to see it isnt just me
I thought this was just a family meme but it looks like this is a thing

I get it, small house, removing a wall makes it look bigger, but people really don't realize the echo and lack of placement space that removal brings

Some people are just not ready for homes, just apartment living

>>1589849
>no no Betty, we watch local news on the phone!
>oh Netflix? George! Get off the PC, Fran's kid wants to watch Netflix!
Why do I have to spell out to you why and how people use TVs evem if youre a NEET, you must watch some media with TVs shown

>>1590294
>So why should we use your space blocks when what we're doing is just fine already? Sure we import that stuff when it's needed but you suggest we always use it and make our construction more expensive for lols?

yes, terra will make you cool in the blazing strayan heat, very good material for high heat = no need for overengeneering with AC or HVAC stupidity as a result of bad forward thinking in builds.

>Are all euro fags as dumb as you?

take it easy man...

>>1590319
>It's made from different types of concrete as you go up, with each using different types of stone.

I had no idea about Pantheon being made that way, do square ornaments in it serve a structural purpouse?

>>1590380
>>Go on youtube and watch american DIY people yeehaw a full size house for cheaper

why are burgerfats so lucky?

>>1590319
>really makes you think about the difference between modern civil engineers and medical doctors lel
Medical mistakes tend to kill only one person

>>1590958

and they seldom involve chainsaw amputations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse

>>1589870
t. Alanis Morissette

>>1590256
>look up Southern mansions, georgian mansions, american craftsman...all very good quality builds, from working to upper class.
That was from when there was still European blood sloshing about in their veins.

>>1590948
>why are burgerfats so lucky?
>obesity issues caused by HFCS in all food
>no national healthcare
>wealth is systematically being moved to the already super wealthy
>get shot
Yeah, burgers are so lucky, Anon.

>>1591516
also
>get mutilated at birth

Are we not gonna talk about how Europe is making wooden skyscrapers bc or the EU and it's climate change laws...

>>1591516
>>why are burgerfats so lucky?
>>obesity issues caused by HFCS in all food
>>no national healthcare
>>wealth is systematically being moved to the already super wealthy
>>1591517
>>get mutilated at birth

they get shot after getting mutilated, not before.

But seriously, some things there are simpla taken at face value as we take quality houses here.

>>1591522
>Europe is making wooden skyscrapers bc or the EU and it's climate change laws...

glulam is pretty strong, Im not sure its because of regulations but more about trends, here it all about RC, high rise is never out of steel, not sure is that good or bad (but def way safer for workers)

>>1591581
>here it all about RC, high rise is never out of steel
Can jet fuel melt RC?

>>1591586
>Can jet fuel melt RC?

imagine...

>twin towers out or RC
>some cuck terry airplane flies into them
>nothing happens
>building 7 out of RC
>doesnt collapse
>lucky larry the jew doesnt get insurance money
>no bush
>no obama
>happier world

>>1591586
Fire hot enough to soften steel causes concrete to dehydrate and crumble. Concrete takes longer to weaken though, so it doesn't need fragile insulating foam to meet typical fire ratings.

>>1590948
>do square ornaments in it serve a structural purpouse?
They reduce the weight without reducing strength by much. It approximates a grid of arches rather than a uniform dome, though the material is still pretty thick at the base..

>>1591591
Bush was already the president you zoomer

>>1591615
In his defense bush (likely) wouldn't have started all his bullshit and then even get re-elected for it.

>>1591633
He was starting shit with China instead. Like weeks before 9-11 China captured a us electronic warfare plane that was spying on them and held the crew hostage. No one gave a shot in the news but that was the biggest story of his presidency until 911 We would have gone to war for east Asia oil instead.

>>1590256
we made nice stuff once

>>1591669

>>1590256
its only bizzare to you because you refuse to understand the economics of the situation.

>>1590256
>Im an apple pie big tits V8 muscle car man
You're an autistic retard who does nothing but shit up the board

I am building a house with corrugated iron and hardwood

>>1588185
Can confirm. Live in a house that was built in 1904 in rural Germany. WC is in one small room, the sink is in a separate bathroom. Have to walk through the bedroom to wash my hands after using the toilet. Kitchen and dining room are close enough together though.

CANT MELT
9
1
1

>>1591636
>We would have gone to war for east Asia oil instead.

I doubt it, Asia is simply too far from American army influence, but it would be a cool motive for an alternative history novel - if you decide to write one, be sure to mention how croatian red aerated terracota brick and RC changed history.

>>1591713
>You're an autistic retard who does nothing but shit up the board

take it easy bro...

>>1587020
>Rome
>the center of the fucking world
>North Africa
Might as well say the US and Mexico are the same shit.

>>1592643
The US and Mexico don't have a sea between them. If they build a sea, then maybe they make America as great as Rome.

>>1587271
>didn't even use masonry bits, just ordinary bits for metal
That's a good way to fuck up your bits.

I have used wood bits before I thought to research the different types. Also improvised some bits out of nails and flathead screwdriver shanks.

>>1593278
A self-tapping wood screw is also good for one or two holes, and can still be used for wood afterwards (unless it snaps).

>>1590256
86oz gold back in the day for a 7 room house!
>bricks, cement and plaster not included*

>>1590319
>dude heavy stuff down light stuff up
much wow tech