/diy/ - Do It Yourself

Huh. Hadn't heard this before

Well what about the concerns of what sorts of businesses will be permitted to run in 'Agartha'?

Will franchises be denied? If permitted, what sorts of regulations will be in place? Will some franchises be permitted and some denied? Will you force business to remain in certain areas, such as all food-goods remain in one area, recreational goods (such as outdooring equipment, media entertainment, etc) and etc?

http://maps.google.com/maps?ix=hcb&q=the%20Woodlands%2C%20Texas&um=1&hl=en&biw=1191&
amp;bih=912&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=il

Here is an example of a well-planned community

90% suburbs
Parks and recreation areas in comfortable walking distances from most residences.

Sidewalks. Fucking everywhere.

Shopping centers dotted throughout so people have near-by locations to purchase essentials

Promoting uniformity as well as uniqueness, as most houses are often custom built

Compared to most urban and suburban areas, this place is it's own little bubble and perfect for families

>>128732
>shipping containers

What the fuck is it with you people and shipping containers? I get that it is reusing it, but there's nothing particularly "green" about it.

How much money do you have?

and I don't mean 'hope to have', or 'pledged', or....ffs....estimates, I mean....literally how much is sitting in agartha bank account right now?

Also, what do you mean by town? Over here town = 5 or 6 figure population, but in usa there are 'towns' with pop of 5 or 6.

You need to know your intended population, how many homes.

>>128776
In Utah, anywhere with more than 1000 people is automatically a city.

>>128775
Lazy motherfuckers.

>>everyone else
I would suggest a location with a planting season that can be started in April. It would mean the winters are less harsh, and that more food could be farmed by the individuals.
I suggest also giving out some type of reward for individuals generating electricity on a regular basis. Goats area easier to take care of in smaller operations, in my experience.

http://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Language-Buildings-Construction-Environmental/dp/0195019199

>>128740

All of this is up for debate. Personally, I think that we should have some franchises (if possible), but none that compete with local business. What do you think?


>>128775

Eh, I just included them because they're cheap and really durable.


>>128776

Honestly?

$0.00

We were thinking of forming a PayPal account for the project, but to do that we'd need an NPO or a similar organization. We still haven't decided whether forming an NPO would be the best choice, however.

I estimate that the town would initially have around 20 to 50 residents. Ultimately I don't see the population growing to much more than 1000.


Also, further debate over which economic system we'll use is okay, just make sure to include a plan for how your favored economic system could actually work with the project. Keep in mind that we're just going to be a small town here, not a large city or a sovereign country, as some people thought in the last thread.

What social and political system would you use? Or would it spiral into anarchy.

You'd need to streamline and get a uniform group willing to work for the greater good collective enviroment, instead of ego-tripping and building their own minecraft-inspired whatever.

Basics like fresh water, sewage, electricity and food HAVE to be reliable and efficient.

>>128915
Cheap and durable but awful as houses. Requires a shitload of isolation, piping and electrical installments to compete with real houses, and with that installed they would be so small no one would choose to live in them. You should rather look at something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXtMpQk9Iyw

>>128915
For you own good, do not use paypal. Get a regular bank account or something.

>>128921

Most of our members want to start out as a direct democracy, and transition into a sort of representative democracy if we get too big for a direct democracy to be feasible.

>>128988
The only viable democracy is earned democracy. Like Heinlein proposed.

>>128915
>$0.00

Fail.

>I estimate that the town would initially have around 20 to 50 residents....Keep in mind that we're just going to be a small town here, not a large city or a sovereign country, as some people thought in the last thread.

Well you're saner than some groups that try this.

Like Anon says, just get a regular bank account.

For legal form, British (or Irish, n I think some caribbeans do them too though I'm not familiar) Company Limited by Guarantee is pretty suitable, cheap to start up(£40 reg fee in UK, no capital needed), can take donations, but also allowed to 'profit', comes with constitution with legal weight, intended for social projects like this (although mostly used for clubs, as in fan, not night), doesn't pay taxes.

>economic system

Land tax would be easy, but discourage private farming/gardening....which I'm guessing you're all for. You could just have the council/mayors office/whatever own the supermarket although I just realised this 'town' is 20 people(!), so perhaps not that. Fuck, with 20 people even communism'd work....it's actually a good system up to ~150 workers. I dunno....you may find yourself limited in what you're allowed to do, even on your own land.

>>128988
This is sensible.

>>128990
I had to do a fair bit of googling before I realised that, no....you really were talking about the Starship Troopers guy.

this is completely 100% relevant to my interests, but years of relentless masturbation has worn my attention span to a thread, and thus, I must bid your post farewell.
Tally ho!

>>129065
4chan in a nutshell

In the US some of the most fertile and abundantly cheap land is in Kansas it is often even possible to get land over and aquifer, also trees are easy to come by so log cabins and sod homes are easy but the real drawback is the winter but preparation can deal with that , other than that there is a long growing season

I saw threads on this topic back in November and--though I never intended to actually live there--was initially very excited about it; I went to the neweden website and pledged various amounts for tools and a lump sum to be used for initial costs (you'll need, say, a well in certain parts of the country) but reading more of the website and what people were posting there made me conclude that this project has a minimal chance of success. I think I went back and edited all my posts to be "THIS WILL NEVER WORK."

That being said, if you guys end up <8hrs drive from NE Oklahoma I'll drive there and help you guys build stuff and I'll supply materials on a per-project basis. I wish you guys the best of luck.

(Oh, also: NE Oklahoma--places like shawnee or northeast of dewey--might be good for this climate-wise. You will probably need a well though)

>>128732
>Where do you think Agartha should be located?
MiddleOfNowhere, Alaska

Anyone that will not follow you up there is not committed to making this work in the long run.
Keep in mind, everyone that has ever tried this has had the town fall apart in a year or two.

/x/ tried a version of this a couple years ago, and it didn't work out so well.

The main problem is 4chan users are typically not very wealthy, and land is expensive. It's also hard to agree on other stuff like what kind of city government you want, location, etc.
Also, they have communities like this in the UK, and are always running afoul of the building permit office. I predict that america might not be a good place to start because zoning laws are very strict.
Also, I highly recommend starting with a slightly less ambitious version-
Dormlike, apartment building style housing for a group of first settlers.

>>129146

>everyone that has ever tried this has had the town fall apart in a year or two.

Uh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania (since 1971)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Oaks_Community (since 1967)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Wind_Community (since 1973)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcosanti (since 1970)

But anyways, why do you think Alaska is a good place to settle?


>>129167

>Dormlike, apartment building style housing for a group of first settlers

I agree. Communal housing would definitely be the most cost- and time- efficient choice.

By the way, what alternative do you suggest instead of the United States?


>>129145

If you don't mind answering, why exactly did you think the project was doomed to fail? I mean, we were more idealistic back then than we are now, and we had a few kooky members who have since left, but I don't remember noticing anything too crazy.

>>129223
>we had a few kooky members who have since left, but I don't remember noticing anything too crazy.
We now have an admitted twelve-year old who thinks he'll meet his future wife there, but I'm pretty sure it's really just a troll.

>>129226
>>129223


It wasn't that there were outright crazy people; some of the most effective people I know are near batshit insane.

It was just that most (not all) of the people involved seemed to have a lack of experience in any construction. (not the only skill required for permaculture, but it is pretty much the core) And as such they would be learning basics on the job, which is fine but hard to manage when everyone is trying to start something from scratch. I have been the experienced person in similar situations, and such a group would be far from ideal to rely on for basic needs. Also, while I basically never get angry, I have had to talk others out of their tree when they just got fed up with such a situation. All it would take is one person that has a key skill that you are relying on (the only electrician or plumber in the camp, say) to decide "I hate you all, screw you people I'm out of here" and you have disaster.

The other thing is this doesn't seem like the kind of camp that's going to attract the required skilled people (no offense intended.) Most of the camps that succeed have either some religion or philosophy at their core (philosophy more concrete than "permaculture" anyway) that is the driving force behind the creation of the community. I think that such would almost be required because you need something to attract people to the community other than just "hey, wouldn't it be neat if we started a community." Most people with needed skills, likely because of those skills, will be established somewhere and while they might think it's a cool idea it probably won't be worth their time to uproot themselves (quit their job, etc.) to see if it will work.

(cont.)

>>129287


What also struck me while reading the forums is that a lot of the people interested do not reasonably evaluate their own skill. You can pick up lots of stuff very easily and quickly on the fly. But it is very difficult to do so when you are starting your knowledge base from scratch. As of November, a lot of people seemed like that would be what they were doing. For instance I am a good construction carpenter, plumber and general handyman. But I have almost no electrical skill. When I can manage extra time, I'm going to do some reading and start on a couple of projects I want to do. But I'm going to be running extra lines, not trying to build a functional robot. You can tackle projects that push or even exceed your level of skill; it's fun to do, and you learn from it. But it is not advisable when you have a hard budget. And if/when someone fails at something, or has to use up resources to fix a mistake, people might resent that person. And if the people that are resenting that person have jobs/tasks that are easier than that person (or that the person perceives as being easier) then that person will probably resent them right back.

As I said before, if you guys are within an eight hour drive from northeastern Oklahoma I'll come out and help you. But I don't think it will work.

Ah, one more thing. Building codes in rural America (NOT the east coast, though) aren't all that strict. So long as what you build isn't downright dangerous and doesn't do something that will affect people around you (like dump sewage into a stream) you will probably be left alone. The only exception to that is if you act like a creepy cult. If you do, then if there's any local government they will probably try to oust you in whatever way is easiest, which would probably be building code violations.

it's against the law to collect rain in certain states and most states have specific construction laws that wont allow you to build a certain way or with certain materials

>>129223

Chile?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/smallbusiness/story/2012/01/12/f-vp-buckner-chile.html

http://www.startupchile.org/about/apply/

>>128996

Do you know if there's an American equivalent of a CLG?

We were considering forming either an LLC or an NPO, but an organization that had traits of both would be ideal.

And yes, it does look like our economic system will have some communist aspects, at least initially.


>>129292

We're not really looking to start a business venture, though.

The main problem I'd foresee with founding the town in another country is that the VAST majority of our members are American, and many would be unable or unwilling to make the journey, move away from friends and family, and attain foreign citizenship. Furthermore, there are dozens of people (like scroton) who wouldn't be permanent residents but would be glad to assist with the effort. They wouldn't be able to do that if the town was in another country.

>>129362
and "going to another country" makes a little light labeled "JONESTOWN" go off in people's heads.

>>129362
>Do you know if there's an American equivalent of a CLG?

Not AFAIK, but you could look into it. I'm not sure you'd need one though.....you'd DEFINITELY want to do the research at state level, but at the usa federal level they aren't regulated any more than anything else. There's no reason you need to be a usa company to run this, so long as wherever you are registered works well with usa and doesn't raise tax issues.

If you go for a non-profit LLC, there are issues of ownership. If the project is a success, why wouldn't the owners sell?

>>129002
Not the guy you're replying to but yeah. Him. Starship troopers is a great example of it too. To have a baby, you have to become a citizen. Easiest way in that "universe" was military service.

>>129540

>If the project is a success, why wouldn't the owners sell?

This is definitely a problem. I think it would be better if all the town's residents were board members, and a majority vote was required to buy or sell property or allocate funds. This might be easier to accomplish with an NPO.

>>129607
That's why I suggest clg, they aren't owned/sold.

if you want a legitimately sized house that's still energy efficient, this company builds custom modular homes, takes about three months for the house to go up

http://www.hybridbuilthome.com/

>>129713
based in boston

>>129713
...is that fake stone effect? That Looks awful.

What's it actually made from?

>>129730
thats not a real house its a computer rendering
if they built a house like that it would be real stone though.

>>129737
Well that sure inspires confidence....

>>129745
they built this one

>>129748
http://www.hybridbuilthome.com/Photo_Gallery.html#0

le forgetting link

>>129749
>>129748
Yeah I went n had a look. Just looks like the normal usaican wooden house to me. I'm sure there's more to it than that...though how the hell prefab can be particularly 'energy efficient' escapes me....but I'd never like the idea of buying a house that's not going to last.

>>129760
i dont know exactly what the deal is but they built a house for a friend of mine and hes pretty satisfied with it, says his energy bill is down by like half. not an expert on the company just thought it was something like what yall are looking for

I have 2 acres about an hour 1/2 outside of Houston, tx to the sw. It has a light amount of trees and a large about 5ft ditch in the front of the property.

>>129763
They say they're energy efficient, so if your mate says the bills are much lower than a standard usa house of that size, I believe him.....however, without wanting to go usa bashing.....that isn't exactly a great achievement.

OPs going for a long term econut thing, his gang'd definitely be better off building buildings themselves on site.

>>129774
you're probably right, just throwing ideas into the mix.

>>129774

Yeah, I agree about building our own houses. They would be cheaper and may last longer in thr long run.


>>129765

That might be suitable. Do you know if the land is arable? Are there any water sources nearby?

you might want to think of changing the name OP, "the agartha project" is kind of creepy sounding... like you plan on brainwashing your citizens or something... and also Agratha sounds like the name of someplace where something like that would happen... or some goofy neo-pagan commune

>>130408
I agree, Americatown is much less likely to get raided by the feds.

>>130379

Texas is pretty arable but dry as CSPAN right now. La Nina all up in this bitch.

>>130412
0/10

>>128755

I think a better layout would be to use lots of multifamily dwellings (apartments) located on the 2nd and 3rd floors of buildings. Reserve first floors for retail/commercial space. Industrial (manufacturing) has different needs and possible waste issues, so locate those further out, but keep some dwellings near by.

This layout removes the need for transport between suburbs and business centers, increases population density (so you need less land), and should create a closer sense of community.

.

Try eastern Europe where land is fertile and cheap with minimum taxes. I'm specifically thinking The Ukraine.

My ideal home would be two level bunker underground. Top most ceiling would have a large sunroof to let natural light in. It'd be cool in the summer and warmer in the winter and be protected from strong winds and other disasters. Everything outside that's not the sunroof would be a garden.

>>130408

The name is still subject to change. Even so, I'd rather wait until we get more members before attempting to change it again. We've already renamed the project once before.


>>130417

Sounds good, but I think the communal housing idea was for our very first building when we're just starting out. Every resident needs a place to live before we can focus on anything else.

>>131793
>eastern Europe, Ukraine
You could try east germany, there's still swaths of cheap land, badly renovated everything and whatnot else. Or poland. That way you're atleast a bit closer to civilization.

I haven't read all the comments, but I'd like to put in my two cents, I live in semi-rural south-east United States, central Alabama to be specific, and the weather is comfortable year-round (although, we have had a few very cold weeks lately). There is plenty of open land, plenty of rivers and lakes, and recourses.

>>132210

I'll be taking a trip to Alabama in a few months. Do you know of any locations with especially cheap/favorable/bountiful land? (Or just interesting places to see?)


>>131816

A lot of us (me included) are interested in underground housing, but is it really feasible for the town? I've heard that underground houses have a lot of ventilation problems (and of course, they're difficult to excavate).

Pic sorta related. Haven't read it yet though.

If you want cheap land, and lots of it, you could consider Australia.

You could easily purchase more land than some European countries have.

Electricity is not a problem, as you could invest in solar energy. Year round sun.

You would need to tap into underground water sources, or rivers as a main supply.
With tank water as a secondary supply, captured off the roof, run from the gutters into a tank.

Here's the thing about this entire project. It will eventually go bankrupt. You have no plan to generate income. Limited agriculture will not pay state and federal taxes. It will not provide retirement or medical coverage for it's citizens.

You need industry of some sort. I suggest finding/training people to work in some sort of light manufacturing or mill work. Most of this work is currently done overseas, but was once done here in America.

The other think you need to work out is a policy of how and when a resident will be kicked out. If >>128988 suddenly becomes an alcoholic and decides he doesn't want to work/contribute any more, how will everyone handle it?

>>133247
>Australia

Just an example of the type of property available:
http://www.farmbuy.com/Listing_Display.aspx?ListingID=30934

>2599 Km2
>7,000 cattle
>includes bores and dams

The price would probably be in the single digit millions. But it comes with enough food and water to last a life time, not to mention the sheer amount of land.

Its a working farm, so will provide an income.

>>133253

I think the idea of the project is to transcend need for industry entirely. It wouldn't be self sustainable if the project needed an industry to sustain itself.

>>133266
old idea is old
see: Amish

>>133266

Good luck avoiding the need to pay taxes. Also good luck having no access to real medicine. A city, even if 99% self sufficient, will need a source of income for its citizenry.

Underground housing is the way to go. Maximizes you ground space for crop, livestock, and power generation. Ask well as using less resources for heating an cooling. Building a whole underground community all at once, of course isn't cheap. I would say build in one parcel dig the whole thing up, build an bury it. If more living space is needed, use modular housing and can be taken down later, or moved as needed. Farms and crops on the rest. Solar generation can go anywhere really. All permanent surface structures should have solar power and solar water heating. Wind farm should be built as far away from housing as possible, as I have heard complaints of the noise they can make.

As funds become available, pick a fallow farm field. Dig it up and build more underground housing. Can add a ton of compostables to the surface mix while filling it in. Let sit fallow for another year to settle, then ready for planting or farm use again.

Might also consider putting in a permanent wetland area. Know of a few people that ofset the taxes on their land by having a permanent pond out in the corner of their field. Just have to keep it full of water and let it be for the animals.

If you want to go extreme, you might try forming a religion, to avoid taxes. Used to work all the time back in the day, but extreme groups made it a bit harder now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bras%C3%ADlia

No don't use underground housing the Earths crust moves you should think about building above ground and using dirt to cover the structures for the same desired result.

bump

Shipping containers are probably the least green homes available.

bump
shits cool, back to the 1st page. will write more in a bit

Im going to be writing a lot, so ill adopt a temp name to identify myself. no trip though, im not that lame...

there are several things that OP, if he/she is still watching this thread, needs to consider when making a new town.
1. populace sanity; youre recruiting from the internet, where an unknown army of nutters lurks. I highly suggest having a mandatory psych eval for all prospective citizens so they wont go all colombine on your towns ass.

2. populace skills; again, recruiting from the internet, you may get basement lurkers that need their moms to dress them. Have resumes sent in, or some other form of evaluation to determine the usefulness of each prospective citizen. Youll idealy need (incomplete list, just basic ideas):
-construction workers or people who can use heavy equipment competently
- plumbers
-architects
-gardeners(not like mexicans, but like people who know lots about plants/vegetables/etc)
-security forces for a while while the town is being established then transition to a police force(small one, like 5 people maybe if its a small town)
-lawyers/people well versed in law
-accountants to manage city money or if you start to produce anything as a city/town
-electricians
-engineers
(again just a list off the top of my head)

>>134079
>>134079
forgot name sorry.

3. location, location, location: not in anywhere a natural disaster may occur, that will reduce on insurance costs. youll want arable land, mild temperatures, water source, not along the Gulf or east coast(hurricanes), not on a fault line, and not on a flood plain. I was thinking Northern New Mexico, its EXTREMELY lush, rains decently often, its secluded, warm, in a nonfire zone.
4. economy: I dont suggest having things be free, and I dont suggest a new currency, or even credit based system. Do everything with USD$. But since this town will be isolated, taxes will be tricky. Transactions should not be done electronically, but rather tracked on paper for accounting purposes. You should have a bank, ONE bank, with someone smart doing the banking obv... they wont lend credit, they wont lend to other banks, they wont provide interest. it will be a closed system. it would be used as just a giant mattress to stash your cash safely away in.

gotta shower/fap, back in a bit to suggest more... lots more...

fucking hippies

>>134080
>not in anywhere a natural disaster may occur

>>133253

If we were an NPO and owned the land communally, I think we could legally kick people out. Basically, if you're membership is rescinded then you no longer have any right to be on the property.


>>133279

I agree with this 100%. Just because a town can provide for its basic needs doesn't mean it has to isolate itself.


>>134080

Doing everything (or almost everything) with USD sounds like a sensible idea.


>>134133

I think he just meant areas least prone to natural disasters, e.g. not in the Ring of Fire or Tornado Alley.

>>134192
exactly what i meant. im from california, so we get fire, mudslide, earthquake, and storms out the wazzoo. finding a stable, safe place is essential. Ive started looking thru the project's forums, and see that land in texas is the most likely spot, but further reading shows its shit land... Dry as hell, no rain, clay soil, hot temperatures and deep wells. best thing to do with that land is sell it. investment my ass, no one would buy that land except to blow shit up on.

>>134202

Yeah, the Hudspeth land is pretty much out of the running. There's just way too many drawbacks.

At this point I'm more concerned with the quality of the land rather than the size or the price. I think we'd be fine even on a property 1/4 the size and twice the price of the Hudspeth property as long as it's good land in a good area.

>>134202
>im from california
Me too. You do realize that this is one of the safest places to live, right? No hurricanes. No tornadoes. No typhoons.
Some areas get wild fires and buildings need to be earthquake proof (not hard to do).

>>134208
>san andreas fault
i know its rather safe, but come summer, fires, fires everywhere. do you remember 2005, when 75% of the fucking state was on fire for several months? the santa barbara fire? it rained ash on me from 200~ miles away from that fire. sure its safe during the early spring and fall, but earthquakes dont have a season, and im just waiting for that fucking 10.0 from the desert to send us back to the dark ages.

>>134079
im this guy >>134080 >>134206
signed up for the forums. im a little ocd so im writing a massive idea list for the town thing, and will post it most likely monday/tuesday. right now its 3 pages long on MS word, 12point single space. lots of ideas to consider. i really hope that theyll help a lot even if i dont get the chance to visit the town, wherever it may be.

also, since hudspeth is out of the running, why not try for an unincorporated area in california?
>>134208
this guy points out that minus the fires and quakes, cali is pretty damn safe. perhaps somewhere in the north eastern central valley of cali? its LUSH AS FUCK and ANYTHING will grow there, year round. its a farmers paradise. the national forests there are immense and fertile as hell. that whole area is the "green triangle" so famous for growing the worlds best weed. its great for any crop really.

>>133233
>Pic sorta related. Haven't read it yet though.
http://www.richsoil.com/wofati.jsp
I know I'm late in responding, but read that link. It boils down the subject matter of that book into a short, convincing argument on why underground housing IF YOU KEEP THE GROUND DRY is a great idea. If you don't keep the ground dry, have fun living in a smelly, wet and cold dwelling.
You ecofolks aren't opposed to plastic sheeting for the purpose of making a dwelling livable, are you?
Also: check out that site's links on the left hand side of the page. It has a few /diy/ related articles that should be right up your alley.

INTERNET TOWN

>>133253

A little late, but what sort of manufacturing do you suggest?


By the way, if anyone wants to check out the forums, they're located here: http://bneweden.runboard.com/

And we have an IRC channel here: https://qchat.rizon.net/?nick=anonymous.&channels=kantachat&prompt=1

On a related note, there's going to be an IRC meeting at 8 PM Central. The browser app's a bit buggy though, so you should use a client like mIRC if you have one.

>>133273
Alternately, the Sun Tots.

>>134412
I think textile manufacturing works well with what you seem to be hinting at. Both wool and cotton/linen would be do able. You can sell raw product or build the manufacturing base and sell bolts of cloth. You could continue this and sell high-end durable clothing (which you'd have to have any way). These are all thinks that the USA used to do, but are now (almost exclusively) outsourced.

AGARTHA LOCATION:
Norhtern Canada OR Western Canada.

Bump. Everyone get in here:

https://qchat.rizon.net/?nick=anonymous.&channels=kantachat&prompt=1

I would go with SE USA like Tennessee. Check out THE FARM http://www.thefarm.org/ which was settled by a bunch of hippies from Cali in the 60's. The winters are not harsh and farming is good. I think its a great idea, but lots of planning ahead. Two super ideas are Aquaculture (fish & veggies grown from the same structure) and battery technology (LiFePo4) Building battery packs to run basic electronics, vehicles, bikes or homes!

>>134938

Why, exactly?

>>134214

Are you still working on that idea list? Sorry to ask, but its almost Wednesday.


Anyway, potential locations suggested so far (at least in this thread) are:

Kansas
Alaska
Chile
Texas
Easter Europe
Alabama
Australia
New Mexico
California
Tennessee

Is there anything I should add to the list (or remove)?

So uh, a few thoughts about this.

Most of the things that have been done like this before were done by very "hippy type" people, or whatever you want to call them. I think it would be safe to say that most of the people posting on 4chan have some need for a certain level of technology, at least an internet connection. What are you going to do about this? If you are in buttfuck nowhere, you are usually limited to either whatever local monopoly happens to be set up, or satellite, neither of which are really good options.

I'm assuming you guys are going for some level of economic self sustainability as well, that shouldn't be -too- hard so long as investments are made upfront and things are planned out. You are basically going to have to have something to export.

As for location, personally I wouldn't do it in the US, but personally I wouldn't live here if I didn't have to either. The places where I would (scandinavia and the like, maybe holland) I don't know enough about. I do know that holland is full enough and it'd be hard as fuck to get land there. The rest seem difficult enough simply based on climate.

Another idea might be, instead of having a large patch of land for a bunch of houses built out of shipping containers or whatever and farming land and so forth, why not just have a single, multi story building that everyone lives in? Doesn't seem like as much of a better idea as just a different one though, the cost is higher and the total living space for everyone would probably be lower (and a lower amount of privacy, even with a "properly" built building), but distribution of resources would be easier, it would take up less land, and would probably look cooler.

That's about it.

you guys should check this out: http://opensourceecology.org/

>>129146
or canada. the northern territories are pretty harsh. P.E.I.'s nice. B.C. has nice forests.

>>137652

PEI is full (I live here), BC has crazy strict environmental stuff but is kind of friendly to weird startup communities. Just don't start abusing your daughters and you'll be fine.

>>128732
Pennsylvania. They have the absolute lowest land prices i have ever seen. If you can't get it there, try the Appalachian mountains. Just avoid the highway, think its 77, the land prices are high as fuck there because of businesses humping the highway. Some of those counties are empty as fuck and as long as you don't grow drugs or cause trouble you will be left alone 99% of the time.

>>137580

We'll have to rely on the grid in the beginning, but eventually we plan on providing everything except internet access/phone service for ourselves. That includes power, water, waste disposal etc.

Also, I really like the idea of a single building that could house everyone. Sure, there would be a little less living space and privacy, but it would be a lot cheaper (cost of one large "house" for everyone < cost of a bunch of separate houses for each individual), it would take up a lot less space, and it would be quicker to construct. In fact, I think that constructing such a building should be our first priority once we acquire the land.

>>137652

But again, why is Canada a good choice? What are the benefits, besides a lot of low-cost land? And, do these benefits really outweigh the drawbacks?

Oh, hey, I remember the first thread for this. Forgot about you guys. Haven't been keeping up a good presence on all the boards, it seems.

I've still got my $3.5k.

Best location is probably Colorado or Wyoming, in the mountains on a southern slope. Massive solar thermal energy harvesting, low taxes, isolation, within the USA, strategic location, low population/no sprawl to overtake us and violate our rights, and lots more.

We can build housing for cheap, then improve the water and soil systems to support a food forest around us for food security and added privacy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WsSa8girukI#t=118s

>>139031

I've done some research on them, and Colorado and Wyoming both sound ideal for our purposes. I'm going to look up some properties located in these states within our price range asap.

By the way, the yurt shown in the video looks good too.

>talk about growing seasons

Why not just do indoor aquaponics? Grows year round, fertlizes itself, and gives you fish.

Hell, you could do it underground with the right lights.

Also, re: Earthships - didn't that GarbageWarrior guy get slapped hard for not only building without regulations, but building things for which no regulations had even been written?

The documentary is fascinating and up on Youtube if anyone cares.

Build a wall around the town and have no currency in the town. Everyone gets free food/ect but everyone must put in a equal amount of cash to start the town and do not alow outsiders. Oh also buy a fuck ton of guns and maybe a tank and get a school and have tons of kids so you wont get raided by the ATF and FBI.

I've been working my own small (50 acre) farm for 3 years now. Last year I made $30k from it just from various crops, eggs and sheep wool. I can offer my services if you guys want me.

Also I am fluent in English and Papiamentu.

why not just stick some floating platforms together and put some shipping container houses on them?

it would take all of a month at most to get everyone's dwelling ready. we could have some indoor farming and whatnot. fishing would be a synch since we'd be on water.

i suggest going to the caribbean.

>>139465
like so

I'm a bit late to the party, but look up Chongming Island in China. They attempted to do this very thing on an island, but it was the pet project of a politician who was later charged with corruption and the island remains half-modern and half-rustic

>>139465

Seasteading isn't a good choice for starting out. Seasteading is just wishful thinking so that people can feel that they 'would' acquire freedom for themselves 'if' things were different.

1. No good internet bandwidth.
2. No proven technology for seasteading. Pic related, it was one of my ideas when I was looking into this for myself.
3. Needs a landside base camp and network for gathering the tires and such to build your platforms.
4. High risks in event of failure, with many points of failure in the system.

>>139399

It's a good idea and should be done, mainly for the ability to make use of vertical space. But it requires solar thermal energy production to ventilate and light. I'd like to see shipping containers made into fully computer automated modules for the production of nutritious food, but I have no illusions that doing that will happen out of the box. It's something that has to evolve through R&D.

The most important thing to me is a large quantity of insolation to power our projects, followed closely by access to water. Energy and water determine man's ability to master his environment completely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sohI6vnWZmk

>>139784
Look up the Millennial Project's Aquarius stage. They've got a fairly detailed plan for self sufficient and quite profitable seasteading.

>>139787

Venus project tier fantasy assuming the presence and cooperation of an entire industrial economy towards the planned colonization of the seas. Not gonna happen any time soon, if ever. The ones to colonize the sea will use something like the picture I posted, in my opinion. Private sea developers will build artificial islands out of Calcium Carbonate. Honestly I don't think we're there yet, but maybe we'll never be there until someone nuts up and develops the tech system to do it. In either case it's going to require a land base and land network to get it started.

And it will probably require that pax americana end as well in a peak oil type of paradigm shift in world power and control.

>>139799
The only fantasy is the author's belief that Aquarius and all subsequent parts of the Millennial Project will foster some bullshit socialist utopia. The general mechanics behind Aquarius seem logical enough.

>>139805

Well you could always concrete-machet stacks of tires, pull a vacuum out of them to make them buoyant, and then connect them into huge modular platforms like the spiral island people want to do. But honestly I think Seasteading is a trap that isn't ready yet.

Colonizing uninhabited islands in the pacific seems much more practical but still brings the massive internet problem along with it. Don't underestimate that aspect.

>>139821

Personally, I think that neither seasteading nor purchasing an island would be feasible for us. Both would be prohibitively expensive and would locate us too far away from civilization for our needs. I think we should just stick to the mainland.

I KNOW YOU'RE TRYING TO THREAD NECROMANCY

Let me guess. Daniel Suarez' was inspired by this for his "Freedom" novel.

I'M GOING TO KEEP DOING THIS UNTIL YOU TRIPFAGS LEAVE

>>140452

This project hasn't been around that long...

>>140418

Agreed. Everybody wants internets.

>>139455

Alright, I have a few questions.

1. What is most of your land used for - grazing for livestock or cultivating crops?

2. How much land would you recommend for a town of a few dozen people?

3. What general locations do you suggest would be best for our purposes?

---

On an unrelated note, I just want to say that we're going to have another IRC meeting tomorrow at 8 PM Central. Remember, the IRC channel is located here:

https://qchat.rizon.net/?nick=anonymous.&channels=kantachat&prompt=1

>>141346
not him, but maybe this will help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoPTfXNDwbI&list=LLOLv8FPFu0i1XH33VZdBIOQ&index=5&feature
=plpp_video

>>141353

Thanks for the video. I suppose if we're smart about it, we don't really need hundreds of acres - with newer farming techniques (like the farmers in the video were using) we'll be able to do more with less.

>>141361

My specific technology is explicitly designed to produce way more in far less area using far fewer resources like nutrients and water, and electricity. Also reduces the need for heavy machinery to cart everything around since it's concentrated in an area.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZTikdxj8AI&feature=youtu.be

tinypic.com/player.php?v=2il1ydc&s=7

And it's finished being tested. It works across a broad range of crops.

>>141363

This sounds great. Using a system like this, we would be able to keep our livestock in a smaller space than most farms while still ensuring they were fed properly. We might also be able to sell the excess grass to nearby farms.

Anyway, back on topic. Does anyone else have suggestions for where we should be located?

ITT people who know absolutely nothing about eachother, AT ALL, (not even vague acquaintances) try to start their own community.

This will fail on so many levels. You can't rely on anonymous distant contacts to make something so diverse and depends so heavily on so many people. You need real life friends.

Hm, why were all my posts deleted?

There was a project like this that a missionary group was going to set up in TN but their funding fell through.
They were going to have tilapia/algae ponds and a fast growing hardwood tree "orchard" on each farm. I

>>141570

4chan is ephemeral, and I don't know of anything that's ever gotten past planning stage. /v/, /a/, /b/, and /x/ are all perennially trying to create real world communities and giving up 10 minutes later.

So what exactly are you trying to achieve by saying "HURR U GUISE GUNNA FAIL LOL"?

I think more than anything else this 'planning' just serves as a brainstorming thread about alternative living where most people don't ever intend to do anything beyond that, they just find it interesting.

OP you do realize that this has already been accomplished right? Look up Taos, New Mexico. You have "Earthship" in the original post LURK MOAR!

>>141604

Jesus Christ... Kill yourself. Go back to /b/ with your lurk moar bullshit. You even said that he had Earthship in his post so maybe that should have clued you in that he is already aware of it.

>>141576

I was wondering the same thing.

>>141591

While I'd consider myself pretty dedicated to this project, I have to admit that the overwhelming majority of projects like this fall through. I can't even count how many we discovered with motives similar to ours that had utterly failed due to members losing interest/never actually being serious in the first place. It's kind of depressing really.

>>141604

While Taos is similar to what we're aiming for, we have quite a few goals that Taos doesn't share. What's more, we wouldn't be able to govern ourselves.

>>141629
"lurk moar" is not "/b/ shit"
it (was) common vernacular on 4chan whenever someone asked a question they could otherwise find an answer to (especially by just hanging around and reading)
it was the answer to everything. kind of like how "u mad?" is now the go-to comeback.

by the way, u mad?

>>141644

>U MAD?

Go. Back. To. /b/. You fucking. Cancerous. Shit-poster.

>>141633

Personally I'm dedicated to buying some land for myself, but I would be highly hesitant to do it with other people because I'm autismal as fuck. There's no real advantage to collectivizing. I've got my money, I can build my $400 hut, grow a forest around my land for privacy and food, and then just live in peace.

What advantages is there in forming a town? Draws more attention, attracts leeches and A-type assholes who will start drama and power struggles for the fun of it, and makes the ownership of land issue much more complicated.

>>141656

The main advantage I see to collectivizing is that those who have the skills/knowledge to help the town but not the money to buy their own properties, tools, housing, etc. can still live and work there.

Also, I was thinking that forming an NPO for the project would help us keep out leeches and assholes. If you weren't a member of the NPO, you couldn't legally live on the property.

>>/diy/141656

The main advantage I see to collectivizing is that those who have the skills/knowledge to help the town but not the money to buy their own properties, tools, housing, etc. can still live and work there.

Also, I was thinking that forming an NPO for the project would help us keep out leeches and assholes. If you weren't a member of the NPO, you couldn't legally live on the property.

>>141656
the advantage is strength in numbers, reduced costs and specialization. You need at least some people to run a proper farm, otherwise you're going to be running all over the place trying to do everything at once.

I can go stealth camping anywhere, but I run the risk of some drunk kids beating the shit out of me for shits and giggles. Not to mention getting communal utilities set up is much easier with a group (internet, water, electricity, etc.)

btw I agree with you and I've yet to see a fully functioning 4 chan village in a game, so the odds of this being successful in real life are slim imho.

A communal pool of resources is an advantage, I'll grant that, but not worth the downside of collectivization. The social aspect is colossal. Justice falls by the wayside and the autists get victimized while the drama queens and partiers and trouble makers get rewarded.

Now, if a bunch of douchebags want to get together and bang drums all night, let their dogs bark, drink and do drugs and fuck until the project is run into the ground, before going back home, that's their business. I hate to see all the victims that they leave in their wake, though. Autists, you know you can't handle people like these and you know they're out there. You know that people are stupid and will take their side. You've seen it play out again and again and they'll never stop.

The only reason for collectivization that makes sense is a political one, where you would want a strong hierarchal militia in charge of its land, spinning off new militias and building a network of people to mobilize, organize, train, and deploy people for the purpose of achieving political change. Like say electing secessionists to the Wyoming state legislature.

But I don't think there's a lot of desire for political action, I think people just want to be left alone.

>>141731

>Justice falls by the wayside and the autists get victimized while the drama queens and partiers and trouble makers get rewarded.

Wait, why would this happen? I don't follow your logic.

Why would we allow troublemakers, drama queens, drug addicts, people who only want to party etc to live in the town anyway?

Are you referring to the tragedy of the commons?

---

On an unrelated note, we now have a /sci/ thread:

>>>/sci/4333628

And the IRC chat (here's the channel: https://qchat.rizon.net/?nick=anonymous.&channels=kantachat&prompt=1)) begins in 2 hours.

>>141811

No, I'm not talking about the tragedy of the commons. Tragedy of the commons implies rational actors. The folly of Economics is that Humans aren't rational actors at all, so it's basically just a lot of useless game theory that doesn't apply to the real world at all.

Anyway, you'll allow drug addicts and trouble makers because they're fun, so the hard workers get shit on while the partiers get their little bands of idiotic sycophants and weight of numbers crushes those who actually want to be serious.

If you don't have first hand experience with this then you're probably one of the partiers or sycophants.

>>128732
This project should be located on Brazil, I would suggest somewhere in Minas Gerais, because:
Price of local properties are fairly cheap
climate is ideal for anything
It's near Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, the biggest states of that country.
Tons of water sources.
Population density is low for such a big state
Wind is strong enough to use wind power.
Sun is strong enough to use solar power

>>128732
Southern USA or South America.

Upper Michigan. That is all.

>>141912
>>141908

Nah mang, nah. First of all, foreign countries will not take people. Certainly not lots of them. This is not the 1800s. They don't want us unless we've got fat bank to invest there. It has to be in the USA.

Second off, we can get high insolation in southern Colorado while not being in a stifling desert. I think we'd still need extensive rainwater catchment and other water systems though to avoid the expense of drilling a well.

>>141938

I live in Wisconsin, so honestly north woods is really the sort of land I'm looking at realistically for myself. Cold dry winters and hot humid summers is a problem though, especially if you want solar energy. The wind isn't very good in the north woods either. Buying electricity off grid isn't terribly expensive, but I don't think anyone wants that dependence if they can help it.

>>128732


what state will you guys choose ? This is probably the most important decision for the whole project. The legal issues / fees / associated costs / taxes could totally stop any sort of development in particular states.

>>141945

That's not really a concern for small endeavors. There are no 'fees,' beyond simply acquiring your land.

If you grow a privacy forest around your land, and don't let people on, they can't do a thing. If everyone has their own stand alone residence, with like a communal kitchen/bathroom/laundry area, there aren't any liability issues either. Just make everyone sign a waiver for living in alternative housing.

>>141949

You think just because you live out in the woods that mining, farming, building, and health codes don't apply to you ? Or property tax ? Or insurance ?

>>141952

Property taxes do. But yeah, I totally think none of that other stuff applies because it's all unenforceable.

Pretty much no one on 4chan has the funding for this. Even if they did, they'd do their own private venture because they'd be investing their own money.

>>141953

It depends where you live but MSHAW, FWS, USDA, and plenty of other federal agencies spend most of their time sending agents out to extreme remote locations for the sole purpose of racking up fines.

>>141954


The basics are not prohibitively expensive. Money is the least of the problems.

Assuming some low-tier rural land of 10 acres for $15,000, (possibly a lot less) and some $400 solar cubicles, we could provide electricity, internet, and safe warm housing for maybe $1000/person. The only lasting structural costs would be internet, electricity, and food. Much cheaper than rent and bills anywhere else, and the land would only appreciate in value so much of the cost is more or less a 'deposit.'

The harder part is managing the people who cause trouble, disrupt the peace of the community with loud sounds, drug use, partying, and other nigger behavior. You'd have to buy back their share of the land, one asshole at a time.

I think getting hung up on the money is babby-tier. The social order and politics is far more important and messy.

>>141955

It's called the 4th amendment. They can't search private lands without a warrant.

>Implying omnicient federal agents that are going to extort money for improperly housed chickens.

IRC meeting starting now:

https://qchat.rizon.net/?nick=anonymous.&channels=kantachat&prompt=1

You might want to use a client if you have one, though. The browser app kind of sucks.

>>141960
you are really naive.

if it was this easy, many more people would do this. If you really think that federal and state departments won't crack down on your ass you are sadly mistaken.

>>141969

Herp derp big brother is watching.

You have no idea how vast the united states is.

http://mibbit.com/?channel=%23kantachat&server=rizon.mibbit.org

Better irc link.

this whole thread is tldr BUT I think we should make an actual website for it.... has this been mentioned yet?

>>142047

Not really. I don't have much experience in web design, though.

I'm an alternative energy integrator. I'm not going to lie, i only read the first post. Its clear to me that OP has an infantile understanding of energy and logistics.

>windmills, small hydro, stationary bicycles
What about SOLAR PANELS? Stationary bicycles? If you have extra alternators laying around there are about a billion better uses for creating electricity. How do you plan on storing this energy? I assume you'll be off the grid and can't afford battery banks. Fuel cells may be an option worth looking into.
>"green homes" shipping containers.
The best kind of green home is built into the ground. Natural geothermal energy, you use very little energy heating or cooling.
>water and dehumidifiers and me facepalming for days.
Try to do this near the great lakes (1/5th of the world's fresh water). Dig wells, use streams and water purification systems. Many other alternative energy options require water, think about.

>>142072

Solar panels could work too. I mentioned stationary bicycles because I figured people would want to get some exercise anyway, so why not produce a little energy from it.

Also, I have to agree, there is a LOT of cheap and high quality land near the Great Lakes, especially in Michigan.

Why do any of you morons believe any sovereign nation will let you govern your selves. Is this a troll thread? This shit belongs in /b/

you're trying to recreate the Jonestown?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

>>142106

By "govern ourselves" I didn't mean we were planning on being a sovereign nation or making our own laws or anything like that. I just meant that we could have our own system of local govt that we could all participate in.

>>142120
Peoples Temple Agricultural Project

I still think you'd be better off with a primarily agricultural base, which will support a textile factory. These textiles can be sold outright, or further processed into clothing/etc.

Take the agricultural waste (and human waste) and route it all to a central methane digester [http://energybible.com/bio_energy/methane_digesters.html]. This will provide some electricity (perhaps enough to cover dark hours when solar is offline?) The compost that is produced by the digester can then be returned to the ag base to create a closed loop. Sell the carbon offsets to corporations.

While this is happening, develop a local currency, like the Ithaca Hour [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours], that is used for most of the city's needs. Outside currency is still an option (and encouraged), but a strong local currency will keep most of the money/effort local. Dollars should be used for medical care, taxes, and other external needs. Perhaps develop a rough exchange rate and exchange center?
No one has proposed under what conditions, and how, a person will be removed from the project. If I buy land I'm there till the end. But if I refuse to participate, will everyone else be willing to support me? What about plain old personality disagreements? You will need some sort of justice system or public forum for airing out disagreements.

www.landsof­california.com/land-for-sale/40-acres-in-Lassen-County-California/id/1050700

Possible Northern California site. Wireless Broadband internet, 40 acres for around $750 per acre, without being shit tier desert land. It's really good as far as I can tell.

10 people pitching in $2k each means a down payment of $20k and $15k left in debt on the land to be paid down over 5 years. Quite manageable.

>2012, not living off the land.

>>141952

Hi, I'm part of a community VERY MUCH like what you guys are planning here.

You're full of shit. Unincorporated areas do not need to follow certain codes, especially ones that are meant as alternative lifestyle living areas by the inhabitants.

Go look up Short Mountain Sanctuary, Nashville TN for one example (my area is much smaller and is barely a blip, SMS is one of the largest in the USA.)

You won't find much, but everyone builds their own place. No code inspections. Got a few cisterns, water reclamation, and some people have their own electricity. The ONLY thing that's code-enforced is the gas line coming in, at SMS, and property taxes.

Oh, but it's non-profit so property tax is FUCKING NULL.

>>141346
>1. What is most of your land used for - grazing for livestock or cultivating crops?

My farm is small, but most of my land is for sheep. All the crops are grown within only 20 acres.

>2. How much land would you recommend for a town of a few dozen people?

1/8th of an acre per person

>3. What general locations do you suggest would be best for our purposes?

It depends on what you're going for. There are some cheap islands for sale in central America if you want isolation and possibly autonomy, and they have a good climate for growing lots of different things. Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota or Utah would be good if you want to build in the states and have lots of farmland. Canada is more sparsely populated so land is cheaper. I was suggest Saskatchewan and Manitoba for farming there.

>>142759

Why shepps instead of gewts?

And so we repeat the mistakes of our forefathers

To anyone thinking about earthships or other peculiar building methods keep in mind that most of them will not be considered legal to build in certain counties and that includes rain water collection as well as some other stuff.

I'd waste my time looking for some links regarding which places do permit earth-ships or other stuff, but I need to leave now. Also, Ithink it's only 3 states that prohibit rainwater collection, not sure on that so look it up.

You wanna find a state to place your little town? figure out what type of places and services you'd want and then look up what areas will permit those places. Notice that most places are extremely prohibitive and I just helped you narrow down your "what state to place it in problem"

you're welcome
>>142750
you're crazy if you actually think that laws wont apply for you within a jurisdiction just because you're part of a group or community. EVERY LAW in that area will apply to you, whether they are enforced by local law enforcement is another matter.

There are however certain areas that lack laws with the exception of federal ones. Like for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_City

>The site is both decommissioned and uncontrolled, and there is no charge for parking. The camp has no electricity, no running water or other services

>>137673
Hello Neighbor! What part of the island?

>>142800

Just give it up already, unenforceable laws aren't enforced. Because they're unenforceable. You see? Even a moron like you can probably get that if you work on it for a few hours. Big brother can't even get millionaires to pay their taxes, let alone go bust the balls of some neo-hill billies living on their own inna woods. Clue the fuck up. Pay your taxes and don't cause trouble and no one will be able to fuck with you. Security through obscurity.

>>142938

Still, it would be better to find a location that allows rainwater collection and alternative housing if we could. Like
>>129290
said, some groups may have it out for us, so we should avoid doing anything that would attract undue attention. Besides, it would help narrow down the search for a location.

i'm new to this project.
is it supposed to be a town in harmony with nature or doesn't this aspect matter? were skyscraper farms already thought of (would make the location less important)?

>>143005
forgot picture

>>143005

No, primitivist technophobes would have no place in a 4chan town. Although a low-rise farm would both attract attention, be a huge undertaking beyond our expertise level and budget, and require a large solar thermal array to power it.

Although, the spirit of it could be preserved in an underground multi level facility with the solar collection on the surface. Human manual work should be minimized to the extreme with mechanized and computerized systems such as like what already exists. Certain crops are now being protyped in climate controlled shipping containers, made into computer controlled modules that you just supply with water and electricity, and let the Humans know when the crop is ready to be harvested.

This is an incredibly sophisticated level to work towards, and it's on the cutting edge, but it's not impossible or expensive to do. In the interim, passive food forests will offer lots of fruit and nuts to supplement our goat meat and chicken and sacks of beans which we can just buy cheap.

>>143005
>>143046

Although most of us agree that the town should be environmentally friendly, there don't seem to be many people who want to live "in harmony with nature".

I do have to say, skyscrapers would be pretty costly. We should probably stick to normal farming techniques, at least initially.

>>143050

Oh boy, get out the tiller and the spades and let's do some traditional agriculture!

We are fat, somewhat intelligent white people. We don't do back breaking manual labor. Our will shall conquer reality and make it our bitch.

I'm not really joking; Humans dominate their environment. We can work dumb or we can work smart. I am opposed to hacking at the muck with a hoe like a 16th century peasant.

A sack of beans and rice will last is months for less than $100 so instead of looking at it as a subsistence thing, you look at it as a cost-effectiveness thing. The outside economy does certain things cheaper than we will ever be able to /diy/ for less.

Do we want to eat beans every day for the next three months? Fuck no. So we are incentivized to raise goats and chickens, but not incentivized to grow beans and potatoes. It's an irrational use of our labor.

So as far as 'traditional agriculture' goes, it's not going to happen. Even if we wanted to do that because we had protestant work ethics and wanted to beat the shit out of our bodies every day for God, it still wouldn't happen because the demands of reality would shift us away from it.

We're going to be livestock farmers and have a food forest.

Any field agriculture requires lots of fuel and a tractor and equipment. We can set up systems to have those things (open source ecology style), but when we get them we'll probably be using them to till/trench up dirt and make CEBs for our structures, rather than planting crops.

>>143089
I already garden. Traditional, nonindustrial scale, agriculture is actually rather fun.

>>143089

I'm sorry. I probably should have phrased that more clearly.

When I said we should stick to "normal farming techniques", I in no way implied that we shouldn't utilize more modern farming methods (such as the food forests you mentioned), or that we should neglect to raise livestock. I was just trying to say that skyscraper farming looks quite elaborate and expensive, especially for greenhorns like us.

>>142938
this man is clearly a genius

laws aren't enforced as a matter of priority, you know the police have x amount of resources so they prioritize certain things. That doesn't mean they wont enforce them in the future or that they wont use them against you for causing some other problems. You understand that you run the risk of having your place torn up by not doing something lawfully?

Another reason for non-enforcement of laws happens in small towns and cities. In a city laws are enforced rigorously and in small towns they're enforced leniently. Now why is that? it's because in a city the odds of people knowing each other or meeting again are slim. In a small town the odds of people running into each other are high and the cops or judges don't want to have to worry about someone spitting on his food or some other shit. You see how that works? both places have laws and in one place they get enforced, while in the other they're more lenient.

oh and btw as a warning there may be some more future scrutinize against people living in peculiar manners

>FBI warns of threat from anti-government extremists

>Anti-government extremists opposed to taxes and regulations pose a growing threat to local law enforcement officers in the United States, the FBI warned on Monday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/07/us-usa-fbi-extremists-idUSTRE81600V20120207

you wanna be safe? make sure the area you choose for your little camp doesn't violate any laws.

Just go fucking ask anyone that has experience in this area and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to disseminate any info to you. Here I'm nice enough to do some legwork for you cunt.

http://earthbagbuilding.wordpress.com/category/codes/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBBwqTEW0hY&list=UUMGoHTJH-ZjsKLfpWON8Q1g&index=68&featur
e=plcp

have any questions regarding building such a place? ask them

>>143109
It is quite fun, isn't it?

I would love to get into small scale hobby farming with some entry level commercial equipment.

Mainly, it's an excuse for me to buy an old tractor to fiddle with.

The only reason this could be potentially worth the insane amount of effort would be if you planned on having the community act in some sort of radically different manner than the rest of the country. For example, Fundamentalist Mormans and their Polygamy. Have SOMETHING that sets this community apart, whether it be public orgies or slavery or mask wearing.

There's no real reason to rebuild humanity from scratch if you have no goal in mind. If your goal is 'To create a community from scratch' your entire populous will realize a quarter of the way through that all this work has already been done already for a reason, that civilization has advanced so people don't have to do this shitty work over and over again by hand.

So like I said, get a nitch. "The World's Only City of Gingers." "The World's Only City of Mask Wearers." Hell, make the city children only and they have to leave at the age of 18.

SOMETHING to make all the work worth the effort. Because in the end, when the community is finished, it'll be just like every other town, mundane and worthless.

>>143158
Only city for redheads ONLY? Mark me a permanent tourist.

>>143158

Believe it or not, this project was conceived of on /x/, and it was originally designed with /x/philes in mind. Later on, we thought about including some attractions for other boards as well, such as a "gamer haven" for /tg/ and a bunker for /k/.

Silly as these ideas might sound, you can't deny that they could end up attracting quite a few tourists.

Found a large drawback to the property linked to earlier. It's all north facing slope. Zero south facing slope at all.

ITT: communist hipsters

>>133266
>I think the idea of the project is to transcend need for industry entirely
Enjoy living like a savage.

>>143300

I didn't make the post, but I think he's trying to say he wants to transcend the landfill economy of the outside world, and achieve industrial efficiency on the small scale, which is accomplished by Open Source Ecology, et al.

Open source tractor with every kind of attachment for becoming a back hoe, tiller, trencher, skidloader, and so on.

>>143264

If you know of an economic system that is more practical to our needs, please share it.

The best place would be in Mendocino County in northern California. The only problem is all the good land is taken by extremely secretive gun toting pot farmers, gun toting ex 60s hippies and millionaires.

>>143322
>achieve industrial efficiency on the small scale, which is accomplished by Open Source Ecology
By building a shitty, barely functional, "tractor" out of COTS parts?
>>143378
>communism
>practical for anyones needs

>>143220
That was the wrong link anyway. He was supposed to link this one: http://www.landsofcalifornia.com/land-for-sale/40-acres-in-Lassen-County-California/id/927216

The site he linked only has internet available in the sense that satellite internet is a thing.

>>143390

Care to explain why it's not? Try to come up with an actual rational argument this time rather than just greentexting.

>>143394
Economic Calculation Problem

>>143409

He isn't talking about running a communist nation, though. Things can be quite different if you have a small group of likeminded people who want to make it work.

>>143409
>2012
Posting free market fundamentalists in a pathetic attempt at name dropping.

If you haven't already looked into cob housing, do so now.

I found some info that shows that this material is just pvc with added softners. Their's not a lot out there on how to make this in big batches. Also I can't find any sources of suppliers.

>>143392

>$60k

We'd never be able to swing that at rates that everyone could afford. Honestly $2k shares was a little steep for 4chan poorfags. That's like 2 or 3 weeks of minimum wage.

>>133266
Yeah, no, I don't think it is.
>>143322
Reducing reliance on disposable equipment is fine, but not the impression I got from it. Also, Open Source Ecology, isn't trying to cut off a dependence on outside industry entirely, just reduce it.

How about cheap land in NC? I've looked at it before. Some rivers run through there, some mountains too.
I would be willing to go with 1k shares per person. I've seen over 1 acre for about 9k. Possible nudist colony. Solar panels and wind turbines. (land is incredibly flat when cleared.) anybody on the East coast want to join me?

>>143716

Lol nudists. Worse than furfags. Nopenopenopenopenopenopenope. Noep.

And $9k for one acre is a terrible price. Five acres is as low as I'd go for one person, at about $2k/acre.

I want:

South Slope
Broadband Internet Access
5 Acres or more
Away from Suburban Sprawl danger zones
Rains more than once per year

>>143486

Er... what material is this? And how would it help build the town?

>>143710

I have to agree. I think we should provide for as many of our wants and needs as we (feasibly) can, but that doesn't mean we should cut off all trade with the outside world. There's just too many things which we won't be able to make ourselves.

>>143754

Looks like a good list to me, although why does everyone need 5 acres? That seems like a bit much, unless every person is going to own their own farm.

>>143754

Wait, were you referring to at least 5 acres for each person, or 5 acres in total?

>>143692

I don't know about that. I'm sure plenty of people would be willing to pay that amount for what is essentially a permanent home.

>>144063
>permanent home
The likelihood of this project failing exceeds 90%. Do not spend any money on this project unless you are comfortable with losing it and gaining nothing in return.

Also: to those who don't think that laws apply to you if you move out of cities. In California some agencies make it their business to crack down on people who live in rural land and don't have all their proper permits. No kidding: you can't have a wood pile without in permit in LA county for instance. And if your land isn't registered as occupied, you don't have any expectation of privacy on it. So they don't need warrants to search your 'unoccupied' land and rack up violations. I can only assume that other states are less retarded than my own when it comes to this, but don't be so stupid as to think that building codes and permits no longer matter because you are in an unincorporated area.

>>143472
>calls Hayek a Fundie
>posts Monbiot

"[anti-global warming] is a campaign not for abundance but for austerity. It is a campaign not for more freedom but for less. Strangest of all, it is a campaign not just against other people, but against ourselves."
--Monbiot

Greens confirmed for genocidal maniacs.

>>143880
>I think we should provide for as many of our wants and needs as we (feasibly) can
Wealth = Production

Trade INCREASES production(Comparative Advantage)

Minimizing trade MAKES YOU POORER

>>143472
>calls Hayek a Fundie
>posts Monbiot

"[campaign against climate change] is a campaign not for abundance but for austerity. It is a campaign not for more freedom but for less. Strangest of all, it is a campaign not just against other people, but against ourselves."

Greens confirmed for genocidal maniacs.

>>144098
These people aren't capitalists. Right though you may be, you are preaching to the wrong crowd.

>>144098

I never said anything about minimzing trade. In fact, I think we should produce as many sellable goods as possible so that we can maximize profits. What I meant is that we should avoid purchasing goods from other communities that we can make ourselves at equal or better quality for a lower price.

In a thread a few months ago, I remember someone saying "trying to build a functioning society of 4chan posters is the real-life equivalent of leaving Missouri with nothing but 20 grandfather clocks in Oregon trail"

I could not agree more.

>>144109
Now we are back to comparative advantage. Other communities (ie: the entire global economy and trading network) will be able to make most things faster and cheaper than you can. You won't have the tools or the economy of scale needed to make virtually anything at a competitive price. You can basically sell crops, textiles, maybe alpaca or angora fur. For virtually any machined good, it would be a better investment of your time to grow a little more crops, sell them, and spend the money on stuff other people made.

Also: look into alpacas and angora fur. People pay a lot for that stuff.

>>144101

I, for one, support communism purely because it sounds like the most practical option for the town. Sharing homes and the means of production (among other things, like cars) would be less expensive and more efficient than the alternative.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against us making a profit or people owning their own homes/cars/tools and refusing to share them. Honestly, I just think that the town should have some form of communal housing and shared automobiles for the people who wouldn't be able to afford their own.

>>144112

You're getting down on the 9gag level of the human centipede food chain, ripping off a post the ripped off another joke.

>>144146
As the poster from a few months ago who made the joke in the first place, no, its not a "rip off" of another joke, and the other poster in this thread is not ripping anyone off either. What the fuck is wrong with you? Does your mental illness deprive you of the ability to laugh? Does it deprive you of the ability to understand humor, so that you must label human joy as a "ripoff?" Or does it deprive you of the ability to tolerate criticism, no matter how shitty your idea? And it is shitty: "Hey, lets found a town with joyless people who are unable to tolerate criticism or laugh."

>>144148

Tl;dr.

Gb2Reddit.

>>144148
Why are you bothering to argue? You know there is a 0% of this town forming. Let them have their delusions. Their failure to raise funds will be what matters in the end.

>>144113
Well duh, you don't stuff go out into the woods and crank out hydraulic presses or whatever right away, you start with whatever you can, then branch out into side businesses when it becomes affordable. That, and do custom work once you build up the expertise for it.

Arguments over whether "leaving Missouri with 12 grandfather clocks in The Oregon Trail" is an apt metaphor for this project aside, what do you guys think of our (very simplified) mission statement?

"The Agartha Project, in essence, aims to found a town. This town would promote the principles of self-sufficiency, sustainability, and disaster preparedness, as well as encourage democracy and the involvement of the individual in local government. It would also serve as a launchpad for other projects with the potential to benefit humanity, and would work to advance scientific knowledge. Finally, it would serve as a bastion for free speech and gladly accept members from all races, sexualities, faiths and creeds."

Should anything be added? Removed? Changed?

>>144345

The beginning makes sense, the "launchpad" part is just a faggy fantasy at this point and the "bastion" part is vague.

>>144345

I think the project/city name is kinda silly. Something like "Anonsberg", as stupid as that sounds, would be better, because we would separate ourselves from the crystal-healing hollow Earth stargate crowds.

>>144345

Agartha is a stupid name, and founding a 'town' is a bad idea. It should be founding a settlement to differentiate between trying to establish an official township.

You guys do realize the government will brand you terrorists if you try to make this a reality, right?

For God's sake, the mass purchase of preserved goods can now make one a terrorist. How do you think the Feds will react when you essentially secede from society?

To say nothing of the press.

>>141944
The only problem with northern Wisconsin/upper Michigan is that there is literally NOTHING up there besides woods. You can kiss any modern amenities goodbye, including internet and the like, unless you're going to run shit off satellites. It's really not bad at all though, I used to live there (moved to Madison instead).

>>144583

Build it in Canada. Seriously. The government would probably fund your project or something.

>>144563
>stargate
like the movie/tv show?

John can make one spear in 6 hours, and one axe in 10 hours.

Mike can make one spear in 5 hours and one axe in 4 hours.

It would take John 14 hours to make one spear and one axe for himself, and Mike 9 hours to make one spear and one axe for himself. If John makes 2 spears and Mike makes 2 axes and they trade, they BOTH save time. (John saves four hours, and Mike saves 1 hour)

Therefore trade is superior, right?

Actually no, because it assumes a perfectly free market, completely fungible and interchangable products, no incentive to design products that will break or become obsolete, and most of all if you change any of those numbers around, or include the experience gained from the process of making them, the entire model breaks down.

Go fuck yourself with your comparative advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKJl6NqR9Tk

>>144778
>no incentive to design products that will break or become obsolete
cannot into competition
>the entire model breaks down.
implying comparative advantage only applies to static systems

http://pastebin.com/3TfzuasQ

>>144563
>>144577

I have no problem with this. What would you guys want to change it to, though?

And yeah, I agree, founding a legitimate town might just be more trouble than its worth.


>>144583

We're not "essentially seceding from society". We're not going to be a sovereign nation, just a town/unincorporated community.

Every time i start reading this it actually sounds interesting, until i get to the shipping container part, first of all, since /diy/ started all you retards have been talking about your new god the shipping container, don't u realize that its both retarded to live in one and theirs a lot easier ways to build a more sustainable home? And second, how fucking dumb do you have to be to believe you can get even one shipping container anywhere in an ecologically friendly way, wtf guys? Or how the fuck is pulling an enormous chunk of metal in the ground friendly to anything? Even if they were some anti-earth type of group that actually supporter non-ecological living styles they would laugh at you. Try going in the middle of a huge forest and start building log cabins with old-school manual tools.

>>144778
I would say the real difference between the example and real life is that, in the example, both people know the other could make stuff for themselves and has to out-compete them, while in real life companies presume that other groups are entirely dependent on them, when they aren't actively working towards making that presumption true.
>>130408
>>144577
>>144563
This project originally started on /x/, so the name was likely intentionally chosen to be creepy, and was also originally New Eden until said that was a bad idea.

>>144778
>no incentive to design products that will break or become obsolete,

What the ever loving fuck is wrong with you? Did you take Cheapskate American Business Class 101 or something? If you make something you make it as best you can so it doesn't break or become obsolete. Then you back it up with the repair service should it ever break down which hopefully it won't.

Fucking broken window fallacy, man.

>>145541

Okay, okay, no shipping containers then.

south argentina, actually im going to do this with my friends

Where are you guys building this town? Who is investing the money and how much? Money is by far the most important issue. No one is going to throw a few grand into this without significant assurance that their investment will be protected.

I seriously doubt this will happen, or even work if it gets off the ground. 4chan is not renowned for its peacefully prosperous userbase and I don't think many would give up their current amenities like high speed internet and local goods and services for some rural eco-shack on sketchy well water, unreliable solar/wind, and satellite internet.

Though if you guys do try to do this, I would suggest Central America as the land is cheap, fertile, and great for renewables like solar, hydro and biofuels.

>>146049
>Israel

>>146049
Check out the region around San Miguel de Tucuman. It's further north, more fertile, and close to the major city there.

South Argentina is pretty much Patagonia and has shit climate.

>>145902
Ever hear of planned obsolescence? Just look at Apple products, they break from the silliest things and their policy is for you to buy the next iteration of that product at full price.

>>146056

>>146049

Really? Can you give me any more details? (How you're going to obtain the land, plans for housing, etc)

>>146056
>planned obsolescence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

Fuck this gay Earth. Haven't they ever heard of the broken window fallacy?

>>147364

Corporations are here to make money. Any positive effects on the surrounding society, while common, are unintentional.

>>147376
In our society corporations aren't empowered to decide for the rest of us what a "positive" effect is. That is left to the people. If we spend our money responsibly, the corporations will follow us wherever we lead them, but we must lead.

>>147379
capitalism worshipper,

>>147376
I understand. I just want stuff that works properly and have a good repair system that can repair it if it breaks down instead of buying new.

>>147380
If you don't trust yourself to act responsibly, socialism is an alternative where the "smart" people make the decisions for you.
Think of it as the buyfag approach to responsibility. I prefer the diy approach.

>>147383
most people who support socialism want to be the ones who make the decisions, and don't trust others

>>147383
Anarchy > everything else

>>147392
Only the names have changed.
Our governments are full of exactly the sort of people who once filled the courts of kings and our universities and NGOs are full of exactly the sort of people who once filled monasteries.

The struggle against serfdom is one to which there is no end.

>>147401
wile it would be nice to bring back natural selection, 60% of people would be dead within the week, I'd say

>>147411
Only if you are a pessimist.

The weekly IRC meeting begins now. We'll start by talking about some potential locations and the economic system we'll use.

http://mibbit.com/?channel=%23kantachat&server=rizon.mibbit.org

>>142938

>Pay your taxes and don't cause trouble and no one will be able to fuck with you.

Yeah... not so much anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw3RiMdS7sE

We NEED a county with no building codes, or at least very lax ones. I don't want what happens in that video to happen to us.

>>149974
>video of trespassers getting kicked off governement owned land.

herpa derpa

>>150010

>Don't watch the video

>Make up some shit about trespassers even though that's not what the video is, it's people who own their land being harassed by government bureaucrats and chased off their land.

Stay classy, big government cuntservative republican socialists.

I know this isn't really what you're interested in, but do you think there could be some formal meta-democracy, where we vote for a new decision-making system each week? There'd be term limits on them for a variety of experimentation and so on. Could be interesting.

i guess this is a good place to ask this

how much land, in acres, would it take, to produce, in staple foods like corn, potatoes or beans respectively, enough to food to feed, say, 10 adults for one year?

or rather, how many people can you feed for one year with 1 ton of corn or equivalent?

how are the numbers different for potatoes as opposed to corn(wheat, grain, rhie etc...) or beans as opposed to potatoes?

also, whats more work/energy intensive to produce and process?

I see the trolls are out in full force here and I'm three weeks late but I'd be willing to contribute a few ideas since I've been thinking about my own homestead for a while.

Lazy farming is answered easily by:
http://www.seattleoil.com/Flyers/Earthbox.pdf
I've looked into a lot of the methods of farming and I like aquaponics too but this is just much cheaper with very little maintenance and more easily scaleable. I do like the idea of fresh meat being built into the aquaponics system though.

Compost and sewage all at once:http://humanurehandbook.com/humanure_toilet.html
Have to mix with sawdust to maintain dry conditions.

Solar shower: http://www.countrysidemag.com/issues/90/90-6/Edward_Shultz.html

Magnifying solar energy:http://greenpowerscience.com/SHOPFRESNELHOME.html
Really useful for a lot of purposes but mainly just getting a lot of energy to be converted into something else for very cheap, or just start a small fire within seconds.
(cont)

>>150227

For small (I mean SMALL) houses:http://www.tinyhousedesign.com/
May not be for everyone, but I've thought about buying a tract of land and building one of these cheaply until I build a bigger home.

For industry:http://buildyourcnc.com/
For the tech savvy anon that wants to build practically anything with a computer model and time to fine tune the machine. Can build pretty much anything with the right planning and tuning so you have your own standardized machine shop.

Also have you thought about maybe just a neighborhood association. It doesn't seem like you're trying to start off with a whole lot of people. I'll admit I haven't done any looking into on that.

I'd also recommend getting closer to the equator to make use of more sunlight. It will help with providing energy and give you longer grow times. It's always much easier to cool plants down than to keep them warm enough to survive.

>>150222
Check this out: http://www.gardensofeden.org/04%20Crop%20Yield%20Verification.htm

it seems as if some of you are having trouble getting around the fact living the way you intend would involve large amounts of manual labour

but see thats the thing, thats what living off the land is about

you can talk about smart and sustainable solutions till a breed of gmo pigs is grown that can fly, but the simple fact is the most sustainable, most autonomous, most cost-effective way to go about agriculture involves two hands, two legs a strong back and a fuckton of sweat

and theres nothing wrong with that

im not saying theres anything wrong with smart ideas that save you from unnecesary work, far from it, and maybe one day you manage to build your comunity and your economy into something so efficient and so well developed you hardly have to break a sweat on a awerage day, and if so great, im just saying, if youre not ready to get some work blisters and calluses on your hands youre in the wrong game here

>>150243
I don't think anyone sincerely wanting to do something like this would be afraid of work.
If you're lazy it would just be easier working a minimum wage job and paying the bills the rest of your life until you get too old and sick.
At least then you can be sucked into the comfort of monotonous cycles with repetitive entertainment to occupy your mind between the hours of work and sleep.
If they were sincere about an alternative to this life they would work hard toward something at least different.

>>150173

You know, this might be a good idea to try in the beginning to see which political system we'd all prefer or which would work out best for us. Alternatively, if a decision-making system failed, we could always resort to this method to instate another one. Thanks for the idea.

On another note - I have a bunch of questions for you guys that we need to settle ASAP: What should the primary source of income be? Are there any alternative sources of income we should look into? How reliant should we be on tourism - should we discourage it, encourage it but not depend on it, or depend on it almost entirely for income? Should we exaggerate or downplay our origins (4chan)? How can we compromise between those of us who want a communist system and those of us who want a libertarian capitalist system? What price range should we be looking for here, and how much land?

You don't have to answer all the questions, just as many as you can

>>150910

We're not founding a nation, here. Not at first. There's no 'tourism.'

It's just going to be a few guys starting a farm. I want to get the land and housing up, establish a food forest, and hydroponics green house for growing grass shoots year round, and then start raising enough cows to sell 3 or 4 of them a year. That's $6k per year. Beef prices could rise enough to make it $8k per year in very short order. Eggs, beef, venison and duck from hunting, chicken, apples, store bought beans and spices, and possibly some fish from some form of aquaponics, as well as fishing in lakes and rivers nearby could offer a great deal of food for self sufficiency.

We could also sell solar thermal energy to the grid in the spring, summer, and fall, and buy it from the grid in winter when insolation drops off to practically nil for energy independence.

Water catchment for water independence, and our only expenses are basic foodstuffs like flour and dried beans and such, along with internet. Honestly this thread is so patchwork and full of bad ideas I'd like to make another one, but this thread just won't die.

Anyway I have $5k for this project for sure, and we allegedly have another $20k in hand from another individual. The tentative plan is to buy the land outright, and then have people who want to join buy shares from those who put down the initial capital, until everyone has one share and we are debt free, living on a functioning self-sufficient colony.

Also it won't be called Agartha and we're not going to try to build a 'town,' just a self-sufficient unincorporated farming hamlet.

>>150944
>We could also sell solar thermal energy to the grid in the spring, summer, and fall

And maybe break even in 30 years!

Unfortunately, the lifespan for solar is 25 years.

>>150945

Oh gee golly look at all those assumptions you're making.

And all that memetic rhetoric too! You must be exhausted. Just desperate to poke holes aren't we?

No one said anything about solar voltaic.

>>150946
Solar cells are the only cost efficient source of solar power.

Which is depressing, because they still cost 3x as much as wind, coal, or nuclear.

>>150957

Whatever you say, champ. Nevermind the fact that the efficacy of solar power, even inefficient solar voltaic, depends entirely on the level of insolation which varies wildly, while you list out tired, static misinfo about solar designed by conservatives who are opposed to solar of any kind. Nevermind the fact that even inefficient solar voltaic tech is constantly improving and these same figures you're mindlessly repeating are the same ones that have been repeated for years. Pic related, solar voltaic, it would stand to reason, would pay itself off a lot sooner in New Mexico than Vermont.

And nevermind the fact that there are dozens of other ways to harness solar energy. Oil is just biosolar energy getting drilled up from millions of years ago. Wind is solar energy driving heat exchange in the atmosphere, turning large turbines that catch the moving air. Everything but nuclear is solar energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabolic_trough
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_water_heating
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

I'm done refuting you, you're clearly a moron, have a nice day. Feel free to look up any of the dozens of other direct applications for solar power yourself.

>>150957

Forgot mah pic.

>>150972

Except that big nuclear ball in the sky is solar.

Derplol

>>150982
Solar power is the conversion of sunlight to electricity. The sun converts matter (hydrogen) into energy through nuclear fission.
>Derplol
Go back to where you /b/elong.

>>151007

>doesn't know about harnessing visible-wavelength radiation from radioactive sources that emit quantum particles.

DERRRRRRRRP go back to high school where you should have learned better.

>>150944
Sounds like a decent idea. Selling shares cuts down on parasites while giving the buyers a bit of security on their investment that they won't be used and thrown out later. I think that the location is easier than you think. Southern states have better sun conditions so that eliminates half the country.

Here's one in Kentucky not far from the interstate with 9.5 acres for about $20,000. Unknown restrictions
http://landincorporated.com/Preview.aspx?pID=c1be0174-1037-4c79-b46b-9f4946c88daa

This one sounds pretty good too except the public land you ca use sounds a little fishy. It's Southern Missouri about 20 acres of woodlands for about $21,500. You would need to do a lot of clearing and has city restrictions.
http://landincorporated.com/Preview.aspx?pID=4c8d2523-171e-464a-867f-d0e2ffa1f65e

Another one in KY with no zoning restrictions. 16 acres for $25,000. Looks pretty wooded. http://landincorporated.com/Preview.aspx?pID=b711658b-f551-4696-a549-4773387fa911

There's a few more on the site that has more acres per land but the soil doesn't seem ariable but worth looking at if you do indoor farming.

>>151007
>>151007
FUSION you moron.

>>150944

While I agree with you about most things you said, we definitely need another source of income besides farming. There's just no way we'll be able to compete with the factory farms that will probably be in the area.

And yeah, the name really needs to be changed, and we could use an official logo. That will probably have to wait until we get more members, though.

By the way, when this thread dies, do you want to create the next thread?

Going about reading thread right now, but it would probably be a million times easier to start off as a big planned neighborhood
You might want to look at the new urbanism model for how to get started making a group.
Also, it is a thousand times easier just to have an neighborhood, rather than all of the lifestyle be dependent on generating income from within the compound.

also, places like Mississippi are cheap as fuck.
Hattiesburg(city of 50k) has parcels of land right next to town
That way you could easily have access to jobs without being your own commune.
Rather than try to create your own economy and live off of making hammocks, you could create independent homes, and in time businesses would be created within your community.

>>151326

>Rather than try to create your own economy and live off of making hammocks

Buy island and separate into own country.

Legalize a few drugs, have economy better than 90% of the world within a couple of years.

>>151442
and get slaughtered by pirates for lulz.

this whole shit is just a pipe dream, it will fail miserably

and i dont say that to be mean. you are better off by yourself or maybe 3 or less with varied great skills

Wasn't this on /k/ before?

>>151442
>>151442
>>151442
>imlying the us won't invade you if you're liberal with drugs
>implying the UN will recognize your narco-state

>>151506
Wow just realised no, this wasn't on /k/, this was on /diy/ about a month ago, and this is the same exact thread.
Holy shit, only /3/ is slower.

If we're going to be discussing where the town will be located, we should start by determining which country it should be in. Then, we should choose the section of that country, and the state of that section, the county of that state and finally the property in that county that would be the absolute best for what we want to accomplish.

From this thread, I think most people want the town to be somewhere in the United States. We should start by eliminating the regions that are insufficient for our needs (e.g. if we want to farm, we should probably avoid The Four States).

Pic related, its the US divvied up into sections. It's not an official map or anything, but it should work well enough.

I know broken sidewalk farm is currently working on something like this down in texas.

>>150237

thanks that helps

so lets say for example 4 hectares(thats around 10 acres) under corn

how many people could that feed for a year, just in terms of staple foods?

does this have an outside site i could follow cause im intrigued by this idea and would like to assist

>>151821

Well, there's the forums:

http://bneweden.runboard.com/

They're a bit slow though. We might end up making a new website soon.

>>128915
DON'T USE PAYPAL.
If paypal just DECIDES to limit your account, they WILL FUCKING LIMIT IT. Use a joint bank account that requires the written consent of the other members to withdraw.

I haven't got around to reading this whole thread, but this is sounding pretty interesting. Not something I'm personally really interested in doing, but I still find it pretty interesting from a theoretical standpoint. Is there some sort of wiki or forum you guys have set up that I can read at my own pace after this 404s? Sorry if its already been mentioned in the thread. I'm only part-way through reading it. Its a looong thread.

>>151298

Competing with factory farms? Actually my aunt sells her cows to factory farms. There is no competition. There is the price of beef created by the supply and demand, and then market failure of a farm comes if they take on debt and can't pay it back. If we stay debt free, all we have to worry about are low rural land taxes.

Any competition from larger firms would just be an increased supply and a willingness to sell for cheap, which we'd have to match. But as I said beef prices are on the rise. The cows are always going to sell easily, and for a good amount of cash even if beef prices drop we can still make our land and innernodes payments. Feeding ourselves is going to be the main challenge. Acquiring healthcare is another significant issue in the united states.

>>151874
Wow, I feel stupid. There's a like like two posts above mine. Saw it when I checked mine. Nevertheless, if there are other resources etc., feel free to post them.

>>151876
*... a link like two posts above...*

Finally got done reading this whole thread.

I like the idea very much, and wouldn't mind being involved, but we have to remain realists. There seems to be some people who feel like they are founding a new country. When all it would be is an amish community that has an easier time because we wouldn't be luddites.

All the talks of our own currency and our own justice system seems more like someone pretending its going to be a new nation or something. And its taking the focus off of other more practical and useful things we could be discussing and planning(like deciding a location). Just my two cents.

>>151807
Well if you're at average yield for 10 acres that's 62,000 pounds of corn. Divided by the number of days in the year you're looking at 169.863 lbs. per day. At 5 lbs per person per day that's about 34 people.

You'll need to rotate crops though so you don't kill the soil. Ariable dirt is almost like a pet. You've got to take care of it properly.

You need some expensive equipment to monocrop farm like this though.

>>152027
Here's on article on permaculture.
http://www.permaculture.com/node/140

Supposed to be the most efficient farming out there.

Nevermind me, just posting a topo map of a possible site.

>>152032

No road frontage. How does one go about getting electricity and internet run to a site? It wouldn't be that prohibitive in civilized lands like the north woods would it?

Electricity can be generated. Internet can not.
Could use satellite internet to a dedicated server to be connected to a wifi router. Would work fine until over 255 devices are hooked in at once and then you have to modify it a little after that.
Probably be slow as balls.

>>152118

But the road is only a little ways away. Look at the map. It's like a mile away. This is literally a last-mile connectivity issue.

>>151509
>implying the UN would survive after getting the backup of narco-producing countries and taking over the world.

>>151509

Afghanistan is currently the world's #1 opium (and by its extension, heroin) and hashish producer.
The US of A has no problems with narco states. Same with the UN.

You can just skip the step of creating a farm, since it has recently been possible to create edible/digestible meat from stem cells.

Steak from the petri dish needs WAY less resources than raising/feeding/killing a cow/chicken/etc.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/11/artificial-meat-economics/

> green home
> container
NO YOU FUCKING IDIOTS.

This is a green house. It's under the ground so you don't have to use artificial insulation (which is mostly toxic) and you can plant shit on top of it. Also it's particularly good for regions with tornado activity.

> stationary bicycles
A good idea for once, no need to work out and let all of your energy go to waste. And as far as engines go, humans are somewhat efficient.

> location
Sparsely populated, continental climate, if you want to be dependent on alternative electrical sources you either have to build in a very windy or a very sunny location.
Windy means less rainy but too hot isn't good for crops either.
Ideally you'd want to build near a river or a creek, the land there is more fertile.

>>152211

>Stationary bikes

>Good idea

Nigga... don't make me say it.

>>152213
They don't give a lot of power. But it's a good idea.
I'm not saying they'll power the fucking city with them but it's enough to recharge a cell phone or an ebook reader.

>>152215
Hardly. And I doubt anyone would have enough time to sit and pretend to ride a bike, instead of spending their time contributing.

>>152210 Steak from the petri dish needs WAY less resources

Less by weight. More by price.
All you need to build a farm is land.
You need a bunch of expensive shit to build a lab.

>>152218

You need a lot of time and resources to MAKE a lab. No need to buy all the equipment.

>>152217 I doubt anyone would have enough time to sit and pretend to ride a bike

You've obviously never farmed in your life.
Farms nowadays have like ten farmhands at most and they make tons of produce. Farming doesn't take more than 3 or 4 hours a day. By the second month most of the population will be bored out of it's mind.

>>152222 No need to buy all the equipment.

Yeah right you're going to use a bike as a centrifuge and your asses for incubators... RETARD. OF FUCKING COURSE YOU HAVE TO BUY ALL THE EQUIPMENT YOU NEED. AND IT COSTS A LOT.

I know it for a fact.

And we're not even touching on the subject of how fucking slow it actually is to grow meat in a lab. Neither are we talking about quantity or quality.

>>152217

There's enough time to play videogames/watch TV, but not to produce energy?

Doesn't have to be a bike too. Heck, I'd go crazy over a giant Hamsterwheel!

>>152226

Quit whining, please.

Building Lab equipment is possible. Who do you think creates it? Yes, buying would be easier and a hell of a lot less work, but unless anyone wins the lottery, I don't see anyone paying the bill.

Don't just dismiss it outright.

(Also, would you rather shovel cow shit for years to come? I don't,screw that! :D)

>>152232 Also, would you rather shovel cow shit for years to come?

Cow shit can be used as compost, you need it for your crops anyway.

And I like eggs and milk.

Also who said cows are the best animals for a self sufficient city ? Sheep are easier to take care of, they have both wool, leather and meat and their cheese and milk are less probable to give you an allergic reaction.

>>152226

While proper lab grown meat takes a while to grow you can always take the short and easy route of growing tumors.

Easier and cheaper than the other options, Of course the drawback is tumors taste kind of paste like in nature since they lack proper texture.

Really I think people should be focusing less on lab grown meat and more on the concept of insect farms.

Insects are far more efficient than lab grown or field grown meat.

>>152234

Cows are a hell of a lot easier to sell. Sheps or gewts would be considered for certain environments, but Americans don't eat shep meat. Over here mutton chops are side burns and lamb chop is a puppet. Same with goat meat. Though there is a market for feta goat cheese.

Cows sell easy and for a good price. If we can grow grass shoots hydroponically we can grow tons of grass fed organic free range cows and sell them for huge bags of jewgold.

>>152223
Actually, I've worked on a farm every summer since I turned 12. "Farms these days" have a hell of a lot more than 10 farmhands. I'm one of them, and last summer I worked 9-hours, 6 days a week. Guess what I didn't feel the need to do when I was off? Sit in my living room pretending to ride a bike to charge my cellphone. It's inefficient, and a waste of time, not to mention that the money you'd spend on the exercise equipment would be exponentially more than you could ever make back in electricity. They sell little solar chargers for like 100$t. I'd rather ride my bike to work with the solar charger in the basket, than waste time/money on a silly idea like stationary bikes.

>>152210

>...But that eventually might be a long way away, as the first burger-sized samples of artificial meat are estimated to cost about a quarter of a million euros.

Dude, did you even READ the article?

>>145541
>>152334


Alright, stationary bikes and shipping containers are out. I'm sorry for having mentioned them.