/diy/ - Do It Yourself

>tfw when I close my mitutoyo all the way it reads -0.0005"

>>1437072
press the zero button

>>1437071

If he doesn't have layout fluid on the part then don't hand it to him

>>1437071
that's what you get for not bogarting that nice shit

>>1437071
At least he isn't using it for scribing on a magnet.

>inches

>>1437090
>he doesn't even know about the double dial

>>1437090
>not switching back and forth between mm and inches in your own head at will

>he doesn't have carbide scribing jaws

>>1437071
If you were using the tips of your calipers for "precision" measurements, he's actually doing you a favor t b h.

>>1437094
I have one just like that. I have no idea why it's like that. So you know?

>>1437071
>falling for the precision tools meme
Harbor freight will do you just as good with tools that cost 2 thousandths as much

>>1437071
>lending anything to anyone else for any reason

You'll grow out of that eventually.

>>1437121
Why do you think the tips have all those cut slants? Is it only for look?

>>1437329
No they won't.
For one thing they won't last as long, for two they really aren't as accurate.

>>1437354
if you can't use pic related to measurements all the way down to ten thousandths then you arent a real machinist

>>1437350
>Why do you think the tips have all those cut slants?
Measuring from an ID to an outside edge

oh, you guys dont have carbide tipped jaws? i guess this is a poorfag general for casual weekend machinists
you guys probably dont make your own micrometers either

>>1437329
chink calipers eat batteries, they're garbage.

>>1437496
I think that's just a bad circuit design. Solder a physical off-switch in there and they should be fine.

>>1437494
>you guys probably dont make your own micrometers either
That thread was a wild ride

>>1437477
>he only machines down to +/- 0.005"

>>1437498
Then you lose your reading when it turns off.

Three tiers of calipers:
-doesn't even register movement when off
-registers movement when off, but only because it doesn't actually turn off, runs out of battery quickly
-registers movement when off because it uses an absolute scale

>>1437604
>the joke
>you

>>1437615
>-registers movement when off, but only because it doesn't actually turn off, runs out of battery quickly
>-registers movement when off because it uses an absolute scale
Don't these both work the same, just the electronics in Mit/Starett are much nicer and thus just sip energy instead of using full power like the chink ones?

>>1437635
I don't think so. I've heard you can change the battery on Mitutoyos and still have it keep the reading. I'll try it on one of mine tomorrow.

>>1437635
>>-registers movement when off, but only because it doesn't actually turn off, runs out of battery quickly

yeah I have a pack of batteries in with my scales. They always seem to turn back on while in the case. ( or just continue to drain while off ).

>>1437071
is this some version of the "hey bro can I borrow your video game controller" <hand covered with cheeto dust >

if so please explain cuz idgi

>>1437633
huh?

>>1437663
Misread it as "tenths" of thousandths, not tens of. My bad.

>>1437633
>ten-thousands
>tenths

>>1437083
No.

He needs to hit the origin button.

>>1437652
Yes, thats how meme work you dumbass.

>>1437096
This. It's not like they magically void all math and physics. Most units in use are made up housewives crutches anyways.
Real men work with absolute physical constants and their fractions.

>>1438486
>>1437096

>tfw people use length units that aren't equal to 1 650 763.73 wavelengths of the orange-red emission line in the electromagnetic spectrum of the krypton-86 atom in a vacuum.

>>1438486
how many tablespoons of salt can i buy with this bakers dozen chain length dildo?

>>1438482
I'm asking what is wrong with the photo. How is the person using it wrong?

>>1438570
>. How is the person using it wrong?

*scratch* means he used the sharp tip to scribe a line, which is what they are for. It's a meme to pretend that it harms the calipers.

>>1438572
thanks

>>1438572
It can harm them after years of scratches. It's bad practice and lazy

>>1438610
how is it lazy - isn't it what they were designed for? how are you supposed to do it?

>>1438664

he's funnin with you bro. the sharp points on a caliper are for scribing. what else could you do with them? eyeball them up to something? lol. they are called scriber points for a reason.

>electronic calipers

>americans measuring things in 'thou'
What are you fags saying when you go below that, are you using fractions?

>>1437646
My micrometers don't.

>>1438678
They are for measuring wall thickness on tubing.
There are better tools for that though.

>>1438716
at work i routinely do jobs with 0.00025 inches of tolerance

we just say 2 and a half tenths

its gay i know but is even worse when a print has measurements in both metric and imperial

>>1438716
>0.05 thou

>>1438716
ten-thousandths and millionths

0.000 050 is 50 millionths, or half a tenth
0.000 100 is a tenth (ten-thousandth of an inch)

0.001 is a thousandth of an inch

for some reason the power gap between ten-thousandths of an inch and millionths of an inch makes the hundred-thousandth place not commonly used

>>1438762
BUSSA NUT IN THAT HOS BUSSA NUT NOW YOU KNOW

>>1438678
I see people online / videos / pdfs saying "I only use my HF calipers for scribing". I mean - what do you use to scribe for the rest of the times. Do you mark it with a pen? a specials scribing device?

and then other people are like, when i need that level of accuracy I wouldn't even use a caliper! well, what the heck would you use? and still were back to "and how would you mark your point"?

>>1438771
...a scribe...

>>1438762
>tfw my shop uses mils to mean thouasndths

>>1438771
The latter case, plate people that are fine ascribing with their good calipers because if you need the accuracy where you care about the sharpness of the scribes, you shouldn't be using a caliper anyway because it cant accurately measure

>>1438497
Both imperial and metric are based on completely arbitrary sizes, but the most useful feature of metric is the base 10 conversions. You can convert from millimeters to kilometers in a second. Can't really say the same about inches to miles. If we had metric time that would be even better but it's too late to switch.

ITT: Huge tolerance faggots

You haven't lived until you need a $200k laser system to detect sub-micron surface imperfections.

>>1439106

if I could start all over, I might try to be this guy, with better fingernails. That air bearing thing is awesome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q

>>1439112
Dan Gelbart's videos are fantastic. I wish he'd do more of them, in high definition.
I made one of his laser center finders for the milling machine. Even after so many years you still can't buy one like that, as far as I could find.

>>1439032
Metric time would not be good because it is inherently tied to cycles of the planets which are relevant to our needs.

Metric is a defined system, imperial is completely baseless. Look it up, imperial is actually derived from metric.

>>1439112
Holy shit this dude is authentic 1000% jew isn't he? Fascinating.

>>1439334
The centimeter is just as baseless as the inch dude. It's just that metric has nice conversions.

>>1439346
No you're wrong. The metre is rigidly defined and so is the kilogram. If you follow the calibration chain for inches and pounds you end up at the standard kilogram and the standard metre. This is extremely important.

>>1437072
R u retarded?
>wut iz origin

>>1439349
I'm talking about what the size of a centimeter or inch is based on. Both are completely arbitrary, someone just decided and standardized the units as some random distance.

>>1439349
>so is the kilogram

Not to be THAT GUY, but, unless I missed the memo (entirely possible), the kilo is still referenced to the IPK. For obvious reasons, having your reference for physical mass itself _be_ a physical mass is somewhat problematic.

>>1439368
There was a problem recently where the standard for the kilogram was no longer exactly 1kg due to radioactive decay.

>>1439112
That's so awesome, I was considering lapping long round shafts for a precision machine way. I figured the granite parallels would be too expensive, and I bet they are. That guy is probably pretty wealthy.

Air bearings sound like a fun shop project.

>>1438777
how do you use a scribe to the accuracy of the caliper? seriously curious. Seems like it would be very inaccurate.

>>1438780
so what is the next jump in accuracy beyond calipers?

>>1439410
Wrong. Radioactive decay is accounted for in the model. All standard kilograms are made from the same batch of metal so the decay is uniform.

>>1439367
Arbritrary? Yes. Undefined? No, not at all. If you want to find out what a metre looks like, you look at the atomic emission of krypton 86 and multiply it by a pre-agreed factor which only exists to make units easier for daily use.

You want to know what an inch looks like? Well unfortunately buddy you need to go find out what a metre looks like forst as that is the pre-agreed chain of calibration.

If you dont realise how important calibration is to our civilization you are pajeet tier and probably dont even own calipers.

>>1439539
Mics

>>1439546
Not once did I claim it was undefined you fucking aspie.

>>1439644
Yes but I believe you claiming it is arbritrary is masquerading as actual insight. As on 2020 the only arbritrary part of SI will be the multiplication factor which only exists for convienience. The IPK is being retired soon.

>>1439661
>As on 2020 the only arbritrary part

you keep using that word, and you have no idea what it means.

>>1439661
You're actually ignoring what I've been posting so you can feel like you're smart. In this entire fucking reply chain I've only ever claimed that both metric and imperial are BASED ON ARBITRARY distances. There is no basis for the centimeter; It was defined as a certain, arbitrary distance at some point in time, and at a a later point in time a repeatable physical phenomena was used to define an official value for it.

>>1439668
>BASED ON ARBITRARY

I don't think he knows what that word means.

>>1439674
Do you think the French fucks that invented SI had any idea what krypton was? No, they just picked a distance that was approximately one pace, which, like the yard, happens to be a handy unit.

>>1439679

If you are arguing with me (>>1439674), I was agreeing with you. Every unit of measure that was ever used, was either arbitrary or based on an arbitrary unit, which is what you know and I know, but there's at least one person here who says otherwise. And even the ones based on atomic properties are still arbitrary, in that someone arbitrarily picked that particular atomic property.

This board needs thread specific user IDs, so that discussions don't go off the tracks so easily.

>>1439683
>IDs
Why don’t we all just trip?

>>1439340
Jews don't create things, only subvert.
He may be jewish, but he's not a jew.

>>1439687
Because we aren't all flaming faggots

>>1439687
>Why don’t we all just trip?

thread specific user IDs are like on /pol/, you get a unique one for every thread, so it's easy to see who posted what in a thread.

trips would work if you changed it for every thread, which is pretty much impossible to keep track of.

>>1437101
that's a real thing?

>>1439561
>Mics
awesome thanks. should have realized that! so how do you mark the material when using a micrometer? Does that even happen? Is there a totally different process?

>>1439973
yeah carbide jaws on calipers are great for wear resistance, scribing would be one application.

>>1439689
Yes, but most of us are.

>>1440019
No you don't scribe with a micrometer. Although I do have one with a metal pin that unscrews from the end for scribing.

>>1437094
Those are the same ones my conpany gives to workers

>>1440105
They are nice calipers.

I got a pair of Fowler Eurocal verniers ar a pawnshop for $30. It was a great deal.

>>1440096
sorry I'm asking - when you are measuring with a micrometer, how do you mark the material once you have measured?

>>1440163
You don't use micrometers to lay things out. You use them to check whether dimensions are what they should be.

>>1439679
They defined it as 1/10000000 of the distance from the north pole to equator through paris which was suitable at the time. Later they found out that the distance is actually 2km longer and not suitable for definition anymore. If you can't measure stuff like some Krypton excitation frequencies, using the earth as a standard is probably the least arbitrary thing you can do.

>>1439688
Fuck off Hanz

>>1439679
Do you know how tall you'd have to be to have a 1 meter stride? Lol no. You're an idiot.

>>1440019
In some situations a height gauge is used

>>1440312
The French were ubermenschen

>>1440218
OK, so why not 1/10000 instead?

>>1440477
>OK, so why not 1/10000 instead?

Good point.

He used the term "least arbitrary". I'm guessing he goes around saying "most unique", and other illiterate expressions.

All units of measure are arbitrary, or are based on some other arbitrary unit. ALL.

>>1437477
LITERALLY PLASTIC GARBAGE. Its like you've never been to harbor freight before and don't know their inventory like you work there

>>1440169
point taken. What do you use to layout / mfg things that are very precise?

>>1440578
>What do you use to layout / mfg things that are very precise?
You don't. Layout work is inherently inaccurate for anything needing to be tighter than maybe 1/32" if you're very good at it.

>>1440478
WRONG. Planck lengths are not arbritrary.

>>1441471
>WRONG. Planck lengths are not arbritrary.

You still don't understand what that word means. Plank lengths are not arbitrary when measuring plank lengths, just like the mass of an electron is not arbitrary when measuring the mass of an electron.

but if you are measuring your height and you measure it in Planck lengths THAT IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF ARBITRARY UNIT OF MEASURE.

>>1440620
so how do I machine a gear or drill a hole that is very precise - CNC machine? I'm just curious what the next level of precision / technique is for measuring / marking / cutting something.

>>1437646
you've heard wrong

>>1441485
>based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.


>All units of measure are arbitrary

I think there is a valid argument that things can more or less arbitrary. Alternately, no choice of measurement is really arbitrary unless it is random or without reason. CM or Feet aren't arbitrary, because they are used for a reason, and are part of a system.

>>1441520
You set a zero and work off the DRO or the numbers on the table dials. Have you never seen a mill or lathe before? These notches are usually .001" increments or whatever the metric equivalent is.

>>1441485
Lmfao if I quote my height in Planck lengths, it is not arbitrary, it is a fact. If you ask me to provide my height without mentioning units and I pick inches, THAT is arbritrary.

Seriously I dont know why you're focusong on arbritrary as some sort of quality of measurement, this entire thread stinks of teenagers thinking they have deep insight.

>all these faggots going on about tolerances finer than the width of the hair on a baby's ass
Sounds like a pain in the dick, I'm glad I work in a shop where we mostly make farm equipment with tolerances of .5mm.

That said, once in a while it'd be nice to really push my self and have to do something with very fine tolerances. Really give me a chance to show my talents.

Fuck, now this thread has got me thinking about going and getting a new job. Fuck you guys.

>>1437072
>inches
Found your problem

>>1439032
Wrong.

Inches are now defined based on SI measurements.

>>1438689
It's 2018 you need training to read measurements

>>1440578
Surface plate and gauge blocks with various scribing gauges. With good equipment and OCD, you can lay things out to a thousandth of an inch or so. But there usually isn't much point to doing that since if you're actually doing anything that requires such precision, you'll probably be using CNC controls or the dials on the machine tools rather than visually following a layout.

>>1441520
I use layout as more of a rough guide most of the time when I'm working on manual machines. I use the dials and digital readout to actually hit the numbers and then inspect. Especially on a first part, very helpful to see if maybe I screwed up my math or messed up picking up an edge. The way I usually scribe my layout lines is on a surface plate with a height gauge. When you're scribing something with calipers you usually have to hold them at a bit of an angle to hook an edge and that's going to introduce some error. I'm willing to bet there are some greybeards out there than can work inside a .002" tolerance with nothing more than a vernier. I'm just not one of them.

>>1437071
A 35yo hyper pigeon-toed philosophy grad school dropout whose wife was the primary breadwinner applied for an internship at my shop. My overseer is the very nicest man you'll ever meet but also an extremely knowledgeable autist. At various points this intern needed calipers and borrowed my overseer's Mitutoyos.

He left them on a tablesaw after being told not to multiple times. They vibrated off and got bent.

Makes me upset because those were my overseer's personal property and he was so gracious, but this intern didn't listen.

I ended up remaking some of his parts because the spec called for 12mm and his parts varied from 8-11.5mm.

>>1441520
DRO or Digital Read-Out is great, but the lead-screws turning the machine might not be that great, and the digital read-out scale might be mounted crooked or display an abbe error or something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbe_error

Milling machines generally produce parts within a few thousandths, and with some care, within a thousandth on a good machine.

There are jig grinders and jig borers for accurate locating and making round holes for things that are critically accurate. Surface grinders for flat surfaces, etc. Abrasive machining (grinding) is the next step up from milling, or so it was years ago. I can grind within tenths (1/10 of a thousandth) on my surface grinder easily.

>>1443834
Though truthfully it would not surprise me if modern CNC machines could hold fantastically accurate tolerances. I wonder if cryogenic machining is more accurate, because there is less thermal distortion?

>>1438486
This. I measured my brother's toe and I use joetoe units for nearly all of my building.

>>1443835
CNC doesn't make anything more or less accurate. It lets you do a lot of things faster, but there's nothing inherent in a CNC system vs a manual machine that's more accurate.

>>1444629
The machines themselves are way more accurate. Repeatability is the big jump from manual to cnc though.

>>1437071
why can't chinks into precision tools? They cannot even make center punches?

what tools do professional chinks use?

>>1444904
knowing chinks they probably have special chink-only brands for use in China

>>1444629

i agree with this guy: >>1444659

the machines are better made than old manual stuff.

>>1444904
>what tools do professional chinks use?
taiwanese tools

>>1444904
they probably buy local (starrett)

>>1444965
>they probably buy local (starrett)

>>1444965
Oof that hurts

>>1441578
I have never seen a mill, nor do I know what they are. The lathes I have seen are shop things for wood - I never realized they were precise tools. I shall google.

>>1443794
thanks - found some videos on using surface plate and height gauge - lots of stuff for me to learn about!

>>1443834
awesome thanks. most stuff I Can youtube!

>>1437477
>mfw I bought this one used because I didn't realise it was plastic from the images
Was okay though, I have an old metal one that doesn't have a depth gauge so I only needed that, and I only use it for woodworking anyway.

>>1439973
yes
Though it ain't cheap and needs to be replaced after a while, because even the carbide will wear out too much eventually...

>>1440578
If it needs marking, then it's not precise enough to warrant the use of a micrometer anyway
>>1441520
when a milling machine is not precise enough, you get a surface grinder and keep checking the part with a micrometer. Once that's not precise enough, it's time to start scraping...

>>1445787
or lapping

>>1445787
>If it needs marking, then it's not precise enough to warrant the use of a micrometer anyway
Going to have to respectfully disagree with that one.

I work as an inspector in aerospace sheet metal fabrication and we have quite a few jobs come through which are formed then have holes milled to 0,05 max positional tolerance. I am in charge of producing layout marks for these parts via surface plate and scriber and we generally get the finished article within 0,01 to drawing. They do get final inspection on a CMM rather than mic'd but that's rather beside the point.

>>1444904
definitely a lot of german (machine) tools. But they are able to do high precision stuff in many cases. It's just not cheap anymore.

>>1440578
>>1439539
>>1439561
>>1440163
>>1440578

>>1446035
OOF

>>1446035
thanks been watching videos of people using them, now that I know what to look for!

>>1441527
(New poster)
But the dudes entire argument falls apart as he claimed metric was less arbitrary when in reality the empiric system is grounded in real distances and practical lengths.

>>1437350
>>lending anything to anyone else for any reason

>You'll grow out of that eventually.

It's why I have 2 sets of everything: One set of top tier equipment for me, and cheap shit that I let other people borrow. If a bent screwdriver gets returned to me, IDGAF.

>>1438779
That is the convention in plastics and printed circuit boards. Don't know why.

>>1446069
>videos of people using them
i used to use those height gauges in Aerospace.
the small 6in ones up to the 3ft ones
they are complete shit if you don't clean them every day.
even when "calibrated" they weren't that accurate.
like +- 0.002 at best.

>>1448072
Well we had them in the apprentice workshop
so they were pretty goofy and overkill.

people always turned the crank wheel with the brake (small lever over the wheel) and the brake loosened up.

some were so fucked that if you opened the brake and did your adjustments you could watch it sinking down. and you fine adjustments with the brake engaged were difficult to make.

i understand having those for the tool and die makers but for normal mechanics they were overkill.
>tfw using them to scribe pvc plates which were +-1mm off from the other guy
but pvc is soft so the screws find their way.
also can anyone say me if you're supposed to oil your surface plate?
we always put thick cutting oil on it so the gauge blocks sided properly.

>>1448072
>+- 0.002
do you require measurements that small? 2 um?

Speaking of aerospace, I came across this ceramic master right angle that is supposed to be accurate to like .00006 degrees or some bullshit. Is gear like that really required?

Actually I have no idea how precise this is, what is .000025/6 A ?

>>1447021
Learned the hard way. Never again.

>>1447021
>It's why I have 2 sets of everything: One set of top tier equipment for me, and cheap shit that I let other people borrow. If a bent screwdriver gets returned to me, IDGAF.

that's why they have those 'free with purchase' coupons at harbor freight

after a few months you have a nearly complete set of lendable tools