/diy/ - Do It Yourself

If the box is plastic/ain't grounded, and you got no ground wire (where the Hell is that legal?) then you're out of luck.

>>1334408
The ground should not be part of the box but be in the bundle of wires. It should either be a bare wire or a green insulated wire, assuming US standard wiring. While it is a best practice to run a pigtail to the box as well it might be that whatever shit electrician used plastic boxes to save a nickel also saved a penny by not doing that either (and yes, plastic boxes still require a ground pigtail). So, check the wire bundle for the ground.

If the ground is completely missing then you are fucked. You have to run a ground from the main breaker all the way to the fucking box. It is a huge fucking hassle in most cases.

>>1334445
>where the Hell is that legal?
Not where, when. You generally have to go back about 80 years to find when two-wire only was the standard.

Op here,
Well that sucks, yeah it says the house was built in 1959 and yeahh all outlets and light switches have the plastic box with no ground cable. I looked and yeah im in the US if that matters

How much do you guys think it'll cost to have an electrician to sort this
12 outlets
8 light switches

>>1334408
Do you just need to plug in 3 prong cords? If so just wire in 3 prong outlets. My house is around 100 years old and isn’t grounded, I’ve got 3 prong outlets with no ground hooked up.

>>1334408
Why do you need to do this? Yes, a safety ground is better in some situations, but not necessary in most.

>>1334629
This is against code. It will work, but you won't have the safety ground. The real answer is the replace your two prong outlets with GFCI outlets with the little sticker on there saying there is no ground. This is in compliance with code.

>>1334637
Well I have a lot of electronics in my room and when I plug a surge protector it says not grounded , so I thought why not get to ground an outlet

Out of curiosity, what are the benefits of doing what you said of installing a GFCI outlet than a regular 3 prong outlet

>>1334408
Dude. Stick a fork in it and turn it on. If it doesn't have a ground wire you have nothing to worry about. If it does have a ground wire then you will find out quickly

>>1334585
Call someone in, its not exactly easy but every house is different so there is no way to tell.

>>1334713
>what are the benefits of doing what you said of installing a GFCI outlet than a regular 3 prong outlet

You dont have to run new wires in the whole house, it will save you from shock and electrocution if there is a serious ground fault in the thing plugged into it.
Still not as safe as a grounded plug, but its better than nothing if you have reason to believe its needed

If nothing else they should be retrofit into your bathroom and in your kitchen near the sink

>>1334715
Finally someone gives me something to work with

>>1334585
>I looked and yeah im in the US if that matters
Glad you were able to confirm what country you live in, as it seems you had some doubts.

Anyway, good news, grounds were added to the code in most places in the US for areas around water (kitchen, bathroom, laundry room, etc) back in the late 40s. Grounds on every circuit weren't required until 1960. If your house was built to the code you have a grounded breaker and probably grounds to the boxes in those places. Two-prong outlets were still the standard, though, so the ground might be a separate wire that is only tied to the outside of the box. The only way to tell, if you can't see where the wire is attached, is to do picture related. Use a multimeter or simple tester to check for ground while the circuit is still hot. Test every piece of metal inside the box that you can see and if one has a ground then attach a ground wire to it with a screw. If its a bedroom or something then there might not be any ground at all, though.

If the box is totally ungrounded then see if you can pull the box and check for some ground somewhere in the wall. If the wire was run in metal conduit then that can also be a source of ground. If, after exhausting every method and you still have no ground, then you gotta run a new wire.

If all else fails, do what >>1334637 says with the GFCI outlets.

>>1334585
>12 outlets
>8 light switches

Journeyman here. There is no way to estimate it based on this info. It all depends on how the house is constructed, where we can pull feds from, how the walls are insulated, how the original wiring is ran, if we can even legally tap into the the current panel, if the current panel even has a ground, etc etc etc.

If you want me to ballpark it... a grand easy not counting drywall/plaster repair. I'd suggest forgetting about grounding the switches/lights. That will save time and plaster work.

>>1334762
just for the hell of it, if wired through top of wall, can you pull old wiring back up into attic with a pull cable attached, then pull new wiring down lubed or something?
more specific questions:
Is it safe to pull the new wire into existing box, or does it always need to be changed/pulled and remounted,or at least if metal (assuming no wire clamps)
In situations where you can't mess with wall for whatever reason (art painted direct on wall for instance), is there a wiring topology that can be used, with just one drop, as opposed to the 2 needed for a bus type wiring where circuit passes in and out of every box, for instance a 3 cable junction above every rewired outlet?
Final one, if original wire was run through attic in single story with conventional foundation, can you run new wire to the outlets from crawlspace (shorter distance to fish wire/navigate through plumbing etc), and what level of removal is needed for decommissioned/no longer active wire? I see plenty of old knob and tube that is not in use, as i've seen both ends, but it wasn't removed so it's not obvious if it's hot at first glance.

>>1334772
You can always try to use the old wire to pull with but if it's stapled or goes through any holes or bends it never works.

You only need to replace the box if it's unsafe and it's not really a big deal to do. Example would be like an old bakilite box that's bottom is broken out.

Code doesn't mandate any topography at all and on these retro jobs it normally comes down to each box having it's own fed going to the basement/craw/attic into a packed junction box or two. Even doing that someone you have to cut into the wall covering to fish the wire around in wall braces, strapping, plumbing, headers, etc.

I try to avoid attic runs because on outer walls a lot of times you can't drill straight through the top plates because of the angle of the roof. Also there are a LOT more things you can hit in the wall coming down from the attic then coming up from the basement. Finally if you do need to cut into the wall fishing from below allows you to hide access holes behind baseboard.

Code doesn't give two shakes about decommissioned wire. I try to pull what I can out and scrap it just so it's not in the way for the next guy but with K&T you normally can't because of the insulators which is why it's left.

>>1334779
thanks, plumber btw, so ive seen some shit, most in houses built before 50s. new wire tied into hot k&t scares me, i just crawl far around it and pretend i didnt see anything, though ive never been bitten by any of the ancient wiring

>>1334784
As funny as it sounds k&t is nothing compared to the stupidity of people. When apprenticing my master had a contract with a disaster 'restoration' contractor. Basically the guy who fixes flooded/burnt houses for insurance companies. The majority of the houses I worked on were fire damaged and of them it was almost always from plug splinters/power strips. Not once did k&t burn down shit. It was always people thinking that a 99 cent plastic plug multiplexer can handle three space heaters because, "If it wasn't safe they wouldn't be able to sell it ya meh hurrrr-durrrr."

Want to talk plumbing nightmares I got a good story about some retards.... err, a family, that I got an 'emergency' call because, "tha powas not workin no mo." Shitty house, shitty woman, druggy father, shitty undisciplined kids, lots of animals, trash everywhere, whole house smells like literal shit... I'm sure you can relate. She was very insistent I have the 'powas' back on by 1 for 'her shows'.

cont.

>>1334713
The other Anon already answered why the GFCI outlet, so all I can say is I'd either run ONE new circuit to run your electronics with, or get an older power strip that doesn't have the stuff yours does. You don't need to rewire the whole house.

>>1334797
Whatever.jpg. Test some outlets, nothing, lights, nada, ask where the panel is, doesn't know probably in the basement. Makes some shitty comment about how I should magically know where it was. Open the door to the basement and a wave of putrid shit smell hits my nose. Almost reflex vomited. Shine my light down stairs and see liquid... semi transparent blackish liquid with little yellow pools and white foam areas, about 4 to 6 inches deep. Just then I hear a toilet flush and see some bubbles with white specks surface from a submerged floor drain in the corner.

I bust up the stairs and tell her that she has a shit pool in the basement. She simply says, "Yeah I know dat. Aint got dat money to fixit. You about done with the powas? Muh shows about on." I'm like, "If you can't afford a plumber then how were you going to pay me?" Silence. Tell her straight up I'm not wading through shit for anything. She starts yelling at me as I walk out.

As I'm leaving I check the side of the house and sure enough her meter was pulled. Guessing for non-payment. I called child services on her ass.

>>1334798
Running one new circuit is infinity better.

GFCI outlets are NOT a substitute for grounding and should never be used as such. They're pretty complex electronic current measures that can and will fail. At best they'll just turn power off on an imbalance. They can not sink excess voltage. Also they will not bond equipment to ground. That means any electronics you plug into one is inherently floating. Really bad if that equipment connects to other equipment (Tv/antenna/sat/cable box/stereo/router/cable modem/phone/etc) which is grounded creating a very real ground path through signal/data lines. A surge will kill the device, the device it connects to, maybe another device that is plugged into the same powerstrip... Nasty stuff.

Neutral and earth are literally the same wire.
Just connect neutral and earth together at your new 3 prong outlet.
Or just buy 2 prong to 3 prong adapters which does the same. (some of them require to be connected to outlet's metal shielding though)

Neutral and earth are literally the same wire.
Just connect neutral and earth together at your new 3 prong outlet.

There are also 2 to 3 prong adapters.

There are also adapters that don't need the screw.

https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/Westinghouse-Pack-of-Green-2-Plug-Adapters-3-Prong-to-2-Prong-Plug/PRD1UEH7WK78RB4

If you want actual safety then you need a modern breaker and RCD.
It's more probable you winning a lottery than something happening where you needed the extra ground wire.

Residual Current Devices (+ breakers) make the grounding wire completely obsolete.

>>1334462
>Not where, when. You generally have to go back about 80 years to find when two-wire only was the standard.
They didn't use plastic boxes then.

>>1334629
>Do you just need to plug in 3 prong cords? If so just wire in 3 prong outlets. My house is around 100 years old and isn’t grounded, I’ve got 3 prong outlets with no ground hooked up.
I hope you're not paying any homeowners insurance, because the second the company sends out an inspector for any claim, you just wasted your premiums homie.

>>1334830
>Just connect neutral and earth together at your new 3 prong outlet.
Dear God.
>>1334831
>There are also 2 to 3 prong adapters.
For grounded metal boxes.

>>1334852
>Dear God.
That's literally how it is you fucking retard. That's literally how they connected wires before you retard.
>For grounded metal boxes.
here you retard >>1334834

>>1334855
Home gamer confirmed.

We bond ground to neutral in the load center to give fault current a direct path to the breaker so it will trip.

Without that bond it means fault current will be forced through the house's ground rod, out to the utility pole, up the utilities' ground rod, to the transformer, back down a hot leg eventually getting to the breaker probably without enough current to trip it. That would leave a live fault.

Just because the two wires are bonded at some point doesn't mean they're "literally the same wire." That assertion is retarded on its face. They're very much two physically separate wires. That's the fucking point genius. To have a redundant return path in case the primary path fails.

This is why cities require licenced people to do work. Retards that don't know how much they don't know.

>>1334898
Fault current can also flow through the neutral if there's a short you retard, that's why the breaker is on live wire. A short current isn't going through the ground you literal retard, it flows through the power source (transformer) you retard. The ground just provides a common potential you fucking retard.
Stop posting you retarded cocksucker if you don't even know basics of electricity.

>>1334898
Not op or the anon you are wrecking, but this post is pretty interesting.

Electricity is so hard for your average diyer because literally everyone says something different when you google a problem. And its not something to be willy nilly with.

I went what OP is going through, found out a house I lived in had no grounds even though 3 prong plugs were installed. It just made my head spin the sort of shit you read.

I ended up doing nothing for fear of shocking myself or burning the house down. Luckily I bought this house with decent wiring.

>>1334898
You said it yourself you cocksucking retard. Ground it only for redundancy if neutral would fail. Else they are literally the same wire you fucking retard.
In old wiring ground was just split into neutral/ground in the socket. Nothing changed you fucking retard only that it's now split at the beginning.

>>1334907
>Electricity is so hard for your average diyer because literally everyone says something different when you google a problem.
Yes because you have retards like this >>1334898 who have no understanding about electricity acting like they are experts because they can connect 3 colored wires based on how everyone else connects it. That retard just sees how something is usually connected and then he acts like an expert even though he doesn't even know how electricity works.

>>1334909
I mean that retard >>1334898 thinks fault current just flows to earth. That retard has absolutely no idea.

>>1334907
I mean that retard >>1334898 thinks fault/short current just flows to earth. That retard has absolutely no idea.

>>1334909
Is this guy having a conniption fit right now? Just reading his disjointed posts and trying to follow his logic is mentally straining. His arguement has been completely deconstructed yet he persists. He's like a sad little Neo of /diy/.

>>1334912
>>1334911
>>1334910
>>1334909
>>1334905
>>1334855
>>1334830

Literally, literally.... Retard... LITERALLY... Lit.er.al.ly. lItEraLLy. retard literally fucking retard literally... REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

>>1334909
Ground is not a current carrying conductor by code. Your insurance will not pay out, do not pass go. That's all you need to know.

And if you touch anything that gets litup by neutral on the ground you'll get an alarming tingle or possibly worse depending on conditions

>>1334928
those back to back to back to back replies thou. looks like he's starting to delete the dumber ones too.

>>1334898
Ground is bonded to neutral because a ground rod is a shitty return path. Like thousands of ohms. Nothing would ever trip on it.

You're saying the ground fault would flow through the ground rod, a five hundred feet through the dirt, then up the ground rod and effect some other shit? What the fuck.

>>1334930
>Ground is not a current carrying conductor by code.
We are talking about OP's situation where ground and neutral is the same wire.
He isn't going to rewire his whole house to be by code. This is about how he can connect a 3 prong outlet to 2 wires.

>>1334936

Read his whole post again. He is agreeing with you, and only describing what would happen if ground were not bonded to neutral and went solely to the ground rod in the dirt.

>>1334850
>>1334930
Stop with the "hurr durr, insurance won't pay out!" bullshit, guys. You are 100% wrong, and it makes anything else you say suspect as well. It's been debunked on this very board.

>>1334408

>>1334977
>It's been debunked on this very board.

Are you the insurance faggot who exclaims "its your own fault that you got taken advantage of by a predatory insurance agent"

Fuck you, all you ever proved was how shitty you and your whole industry is.

Obviously dont know the diff between neutral and bond.

Fuck this board.

After careful review of this thread I now have cancer.

I hope the assholes who muddied up this thread die of electrocution and stupidity.

>>1335000
Nice trips, but no, I have no idea what Anon you're talking about? Are you Angry Anon that shits up every thread calling everyone asshole and faggot and posts stupid shit that is just downright annoying? If so then fuck you right back, get off of this board, it's one of about three boards on this site that isn't a total shithole; we're tired of you.

>>1334977
Sure, the insurance company is going to be perfectly happy covering illegal, unlicensed, uninspected electrical alterations.

>>1334408
Throw a gfci outlet in there and be done with it. Its not even a code violation and you can plug 3 prong plugs in 2 wire service. Unless you actually need the function of a ground and not just the protection of one.

>>1335200
True, though it must be marked 'No Equipment Ground'

>>1334852
>>There are also 2 to 3 prong adapters.
>For grounded metal boxes.
abahahahahahhah
I have never, not once, seen one of those things used correctly even on a grounded metal box.

>>1335192
Google it Anon. I did. Got tired of the trolls and small minded morons around here throwing it out there with nothing to back it up except "Well DUH!" You'll be surprised what you find out.

>>1335229
As someone currently dealing with the local building inspector and insurance company, I don't have to Google it.

Just hook the ground to a copper pipe

>>1334940
Okay, so I have a legit question. If you connect the ground, which is generally wired to the case of devices with a ground, to the neutral how does the person not get shocked to fuck if they touch the case? I mean, sure, the path of least resistance and all that but what if they are in the kitchen or something and the lid just popped off their blender and everything is wet?

>>1334855
>>1334852
you retards realise that you're both right and both wrong? there are many ways to ground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

>>1334907
it's because there is no single way to connect electrical wires that is a global standard. you will NOT get good advice online. you must read your codes and understand the utility company's electrical system and how you're expected to connect to it. especially in the USA where there was absolutely no plan for an electric grid there are seemingly hundreds of possible color code combinations and standards between suburbs. such is the price of freedom and the right to vote for your garbage men.

>>1335267
Don't do this. Your water pipes are grounded to your electric service. Like incase you throw a toaster in the bathtub.

Your electric service is not grounded by your copper pipes.

>>1335289
Skin effect or voltage dividers or some shit. I've done it. It's just a tingle. It's alarming but not really painful unless you're barefoot on bare concrete. If you were wearing shoes on carpet you probably wouldn't notice

>>1334940
Op does not have a situation where ground and neutral are the same wire. He has a situation where he has no ground at his outlet. Ground and neutral are not 'the same wire' why would that ever happen?

>>1335259
Sounds like you're having issues getting insurance Anon. If that's the case you have my sympathy, but that's not what I've said. What I'm saying is that if you are already insured, and your house burns down due to electrical issues that are not arson committed by you, you will almost certainly be paid on the claim, regardless of the scaremongering that keeps being repeated on this board.

>>1335026
>Are you Angry Anon that shits up every thread calling everyone asshole and faggot and posts stupid shit that is just downright annoying?

If you think there is only one anon who calls out retards, you are mistaken. Sorry this cant be a "suck insurance company dick" safespace

>>1335342
>What I'm saying is that if you are already insured, and your house burns down due to electrical issues that are not arson committed by you, you will almost certainly be paid on the claim, regardless of the scaremongering that keeps being repeated on this board

Yeah, just ignore the "faulty, inadequate, or defective construction material" clause that is in all of your insurance policies.
But hey at least we know you arent that parasitic insurance adjuster who browses he, he would know all about clauses that he can deny people with.

>>1335369
What exactly is a "suck insurance company dick safe space?" That doesn't even make sense. You seem very angry about something, Anon. You truly need to get help.

>>1335399
Nice deflection

You honestly think insurance companies are going to pay out for poor, non code wiring?
Its akin to arson, how are you gonna stop someone from intentionally wiring something poorly to burn out their house?

Stop being a fucking idiot

>>1334637

>GFI every outlet

Even though its ugly as fuck, this is your best option OP. Anything else is gonna cost close to $1,000 or more after you figure drywall damage.

I would do at least the GFIs though.

>>1334727

>a grounded breaker

You wut m8? You mean a GFI breaker? Yea, but you gotta walk to your panel every time it trips

>>1335411
I'm not sure if the term is confusing to you or the way old homes were wired.

In much of the US, a 'breaker' is the main electrical distribution panel in common parlance. Commonwealth countries often call it a fuse box.

In really old homes in some areas, they didn't put any kind of ground in the house, even in the distribution panel. The neutral was run all the way to the pole where it would be attached to the nearest transformer. This can cause serious problems if you ever want to run grounds to your house as you have to put in a grounding rod. In older homes, the main distribution panel was often times inside a closet somewhere in the house so running a ground to that can be a nightmare.

>>1335405
You would just drop their policy, Anon. They won't get homeowner's anywhere else either, since the house burning down will be public record. Well, they might, but they'll have insanely high premiums. Basically they won't be able to finance another house.

>>1334797
I had to seriously explain to this old guy that already had an electrical fire this year why a standard household extension cord wasn't sufficient for a space heater AND roofing panel machine

>>1335437
I doubt anyone refers to a panel as a breaker. Breaker panel sounds more likely. Anyone willing to admit they call the whole panel "breaker" or "a breaker"?
Fucking stupid.

It's only a fuse box if its full of fuses, a distribution board using mcbs instead of fuses for ocp in a residential premises is a ' consumer unit' or CU in common parlance.
Of course if your granny said fuse box I wouldn't teach her how to suck eggs either

>>1335540
Ive always heard it called the circuit breaker box, or breaker for short.

>>1335437
>In much of the US, a 'breaker' is the main electrical distribution panel in common parlance.

"much"?

Not in my part of the US. Like everyone else is saying, a breaker is one breaker for one wire, unless it's a dual that has two breakers connected to control two wires.

The box or panel is never referred to as "the breaker". Except by you and the odd people you learned from.

>>1335437
>>1335540
>>1335543
>>1335552

fuse box, fuse panel,
breaker box, breaker panel
circuit breakers
those are the phrases used in the southern USA in general, as in asking someone "do you know where your [fuse/breaker] box is?"

"Fuse box" is the most common term in my experience, despite actual fuses being relatively rare, but plenty still in use. Likely from hearing it used by so many who grew up with them.

I think the "breaker" anon mistakenly picked it up from hearing someone ask where "the breaker" is, when they were actually referring to a single circuit. As in an outlet going dead and someone asking where "the breaker" is, referring to that particular one, or hearing someone saying "i've got to go flip the breaker"

Same as "ice box" still in use from hearing parents/grandparents still calling it that since they grew up with an actual ice box and not fridge/refrigerator/freezer.

"hot water heater" another odd one created from left overs from older days. "Water heater" is the proper term most times these days, but "hot water tank" for water heated externally(boiler perhaps), or as an analogy to "(inferred cold)water tank" for houses with wells, mixed to create people calling it a "hot water heater"

>>1335566
Only others like those that I can think of right off:
Stove or oven being used for a combo unit having both
CPVC being referred to as "hot water pipe"
Car coolant or radiator fluid being called "water" as shorthand leftover from actual water usage. (car running hot) "Did you check your water/ do you need to add some water?"
"roll down the window" in cars with electric windows

>>1335587
Its a misnomer
Like calling aluminum cans "tin cans", or the graphite in a pencil "lead"
Just holdovers from long ago where it becomes a general term

>>1335566
>>1335587
>>1335620

oh crap. I just remembered I haven't paid my light bill for this month.

>>1335342
>Sounds like you're having issues getting insurance Anon.
Nope. I'm fully insured. And as I do things by the book, I'm going to continue to be insured.
>What I'm saying is that if you are already insured, and your house burns down due to electrical issues that are not arson committed by you
Sure, the insurance co will pay the claim anyway out of the goodness of their hearts.

>>1335552
This.

It's the breaker box or service panel.

>>1335552
Never wired a gfci huh.

Tards are fun when they have something to say but don't know how.

>>1334909

>>1334936
>>1334977
>>1335000
>>1335316
>>1335369
>>1335540
>>1335587
>>1335620

>>1335819
The fuck does the post you responded to have to do with GFCI outlets?