/diy/ - Do It Yourself

You need a powerful forge, an anvil and a really big hammer. If you haven't ever black smithed before, you won't be able to do this.

Metal that tick requires a lot of heat to bring it up to temperature and it looses heat really fast. Most small forges won't be able to handle it.

>>100552
try this first,
http://www.instructables.com/id/KNIFE-FROM-A-NAIL/

>>100554
you are retarded, a low end propane forge can do this

those are low quality iron and are easy to heat and hammer

>>100559

Shit, you could probably do this electrically if you didn't fucking fry yourself.

>>100552
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6yiBqgzrJM

then you can follow related videos.

Ran across this today. Very detailed instructions on making something very similar.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Sword-hilted-Broken-back-Seax/

>>100554

youre right about the first part, it takes a lot of heat to get it heated up but youre wrong about it loosing heat fast, since it has a lot of mass it will lose its heat slower

remember this equation

Q=CMT

Heat = Specific heat of the material x mass x temperature

most metals including steel have low specific heats, so they will cool down faster than say water but they will also be heated up easier than water

Don't know how "on the other side of the pond", but in eastern Europe spikes are made from a "meh" quality steel, so if you simply change the form to a knife - it won't be a one of high quality.

>>100563
this video was alot of help, i have a pretty good idea how i can go about this, thanks.

OPTION 1: Read anvilfire.com which has many explanations of how to get set up blacksmithing.

OPTION 2:
1) Build a forge. This involves a heat-reflective wall and a source of heat. Cheap options for the wall are kaolin wool around the inside of a tin chimney pipe, or a little "house" made of firebrick. For the source of heat the cheap option is a $15 propane bottle-and-torch, but railroad spikes will likely need more heat, so oxy-propane or a tiger torch.
2) Get an anvil. These cost $2-5 a pound and you want at least 60 pounds, plus it needs to be made in a specific way rather than just being a blob of cast iron. Or, hit your local scrapyard and buy a foot of scrap rail; the top's been formed just right by trains running over it. Put the anvil on a wooden stump so that its top is just about or an inch below your knuckles when making a fist with the hand held by your side.
3) Get a hammer. A two pound ball peen and a regular ball peen will give you all the weight you need. Use the flat sides, not the ball sides. Other tools include nice long tongs, etc.
4) OH GOD DON'T TOUCH THAT enjoy your permanent scarring because you thought something was cold when it was 400F.

Srsly, hit anvilfire.com and read the safety guides.

>>100552
dunno if this is relevant to your interests op but i recently built an a small induction forge, kinda kewl, melted down some random shit, doesnt take a lot of know how or power really, good for tin and whatnot

>>100586
You know damn well a propane reil ez-burner is more than enough heat.

Don't forget the 8:1 rule. Your anvil needs a minimum of 8lbs of weight to every one pound of weight in your hammer.

A post vice and a set of high torque tongs are needed to make the twist. The last time I looked into it, the blade is drawn out after the twist, as a lot of entry level smiths modified square tubestock as a purpose specific tool, and it wouldn't be able to slide over a drawn out blade.

However, a few posters have already pointed out that a blade is no beginners project at a forge. Threads like this are the reason that many of the last masters are letting smithing die out. Nobody has any respect for the craft anymore, and everyone assumes you can just jump right into bladesmithing.

>>100689
anything else interesting someone could make that is useful besides a knife?

>>100559
>>100567

1. High school level science tells you some things, but it fails to mention a lot of things about heat transfer, including that the higher the temperature difference between the object and the environment and the mean radiant temperature of the surrounding surfaces, the higher the rate of heat transfer. Red hot steel will cool down to being unworkable in a lot less than a minute. When you put it down on the anvil to work with, which is a 200lb chunk of steel with as you said, good conductivity, in 15 seconds that steel will be unworkable.

2. Unlike a lot of people commenting in this thread, I have actually tried this using an open charcoal forge, it was not powerful enough to heat the spikes. A closed propane forge will yield different results.

http://www.timlivelyknives.com/washtubforge.htm

>>100910
>>100910
look at


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6yiBqgzrJM


there you have, open charcoal, and more than 15 seconds to work with the spike.

>>101121

That is not charcoal, those are briquettes made from sawdust and glue.

Of course the size of the forge matters, charcoal side blast furnaces are capable of refining steel. He is using as much fuel in that one barbecue as I would use over two sessions at my forge; what he is using is a lot more powerful than a brake drum forge or a tim lively style forge.

The video shows exactly what I am talking about, the spike is nearly unworkable when it goes to a cherry red, some smiths have suggested against working steel when it's red, that is the point where you should reheat it back above orange.

He is also heating up the entire spike which does give him a few more seconds of working time, but it is not reccomended to heat up areas beyond your work area because it bends the stock in the middle when you go to hammer on the end, something that is extremely difficult to correct properly once it starts happening.

>>101245
>of course the size of the forge matters
Yeah, pretty much only for how much fuel it will consume.

Fire tending is the most artful part of black smithing.

Also, at the guy who said he could get a gas forge hotter, HA.

Yeah, gas and electric forges work at lower temps than a coal fire, hell even charcoal.

So google has failed me, where can I get a good amount of railroad spikes to make into knives? I'm mildly experienced with blacksmithing and I think this is right up my alley. I would also like to know of a decent belt sander for a good price, I don't currently use one in my shop but it would seem useful for the blade.

>making these

Do you have a load of cash waiting to be burn ?

>>102120
making these doesn't seem very expensive, I have all the tools but a belt sander, for my work I usually just use angle grinders and orbital sanders, I have a propane forge that runs hot enough, a decent ~200lbs anvil and a couple of hammers.... and who doesn't own a vice grip on this damned board? how is this an expensive project...

>>101348
Electric arc forge is way hotter than coal one, but then again this is DIY. Not to mention the energy usage is a bit high.

>>102126
>propane forge that runs hot enough
To get the steel glowing red - maybe, though I doubt it. You need it glowing white and apply plenty of hammer. Then repeat.

Seriously, you can try but unless that forge of yours can be fed pressurized oxygen, or has really good air intake fans, it's not going to be hot enough. And then there's the fine art of hardening and tempering. Don't think dumping it in water after you're done will be enough.

>>102171
I've used this forge and I've melted (accidentally) wrought iron with it when I was first beginning to blacksmith, it runs at 900-1000F, so I don't think I'll have a problem with it, as far as tempering, it's something I've never done before but my father has, I would ask him if it can b done with his tools. He vaguely described to me how he used to make chisels and temper them, he would heat them up and cool them down with oil and then bury them in lime and they would be ready the next day.

My only problem is getting the railroad spike... I live in Florida, should I just buy some off ebay or is there anywhere else I can get one?

btw I'm not OP

>>102178

actually a cool trick you can do is to quench the steel in used motor oil.

The carbon deposits will actually alloy the surface steel.

>>102188

that's fucking stupid.

It takes hours at 1600c+ degree tempuratures to introduce significant amounts of carbon into steel.

Olive oil has always worked better anyway.

>>102194
1600c? I don't think I'll be able to temper the blade... is it something completely necessary?

>>102194
Smiths have been doing it for decades.

Relax.

>>102171
Venturi propane torches can heat steel to jump welding temperatures just fine with a proper refractory shell at atmospheric pressure without supplemental gasses or higher pressure than you get out of a standard LPG tank (about 15psi). I've done white hot, sweatted steel, and even burned iron a few times in my single torch knife forge.

Pic similar. They only cost about $50-$80 to build.

>>100706
Tools. Thousands of them.

>>102200

I'm not talking about it being difficult or impossible, I'm talking about him implying you could add notable carbon content to steel by a couple seconds of exposure to used motor oil.

It's pure fallacy.

>>102196

No. Adding extra carbon to it isn't necessary.

>>102200

smiths have had used motor oil for centuries?

Where did you get this information?

>>102200

It's a myth. Any smith with any scientific knowledge can tell you it's bullshit and that used motor oil is mediocre for quenching because its water content yields unpredictable results.

Hence the use of actual quenching oil.

>>100689
Maybe. I've not worked with the dinky burners on anything bigger than a nail, and a rail spike is about 3/4" thick. If he's got firebrick around it I suppose it might work out, but I couldn't say authoritatively from my own experience. If you can, then all right, he should use a $15 bottle burner.
>>102116
Local train yard, ask the working staff, that's where I get 'em. They yank 'em out of wood railroad ties when they upgrade or repair, and afaik they consider it trash at that point.

>>102236
too bad, google'd and have no place like it around, don't want to travel 1hr to one because at that point it's cheaper to buy them off ebay because of gas... I think I'll be fine with my propane forge and I don't have to temper it, I'm not looking for a super knife or anything just a fun project with a cool looking knife as a reward. Thanks mate.

>>102196
Nono, you coat steel in carbon and hold it at high heat for a long time to diffuse more carbon into the steel, but it's a very inefficient method of adding carbon.

To heat treat, say, 1077 steel, you need to bring it up to "non magnetic" (730+F for 1077, closer to 850 for other steels, don't go much above), which causes a phase change (like solid->liquid) into austenite. Hold it there for a few seconds, then quench it (in water, or oil for some steels- 1077's good in water). This rapid cooling traps carbon inside the iron crystal structure, forming martensite instead of the softer ferrite/iron carbide or pearlite mix. Martensite is hard but brittle.

Then you heat it a little bit to convert some of the martensite back into ferrite. This tempering process reduces both the strength and the brittleness, so that it's still fairly strong but won't shatter when you tap it. You can temper for a long time at 250F, up to 550F or so- about an hour per inch of thickness should do it, less time with the higher temperatures.

>>102243
That works out for me, the propane forge I have runs at 900-1000F. so I would forge my knife, sand it down to it's final shape, cover it in carbon, let it sit on my forge intul it's yellow-white hot, dip it in water and then reheat it again to about red state and let it air cool? also what kind of carbon do I coat it in? I'm reading up on Anvilfire.com as we speak but it is too much information to take in at once. Am I missing something?

>>102247
No worries, it's a lot to take in. That's why a knife isn't a great first project; most blacksmiths hand newbies a chunk of mild steel and have them practice making nails. Keep reading, keep asking questions.

Don't bother with covering with carbon; it's called case-hardening and it's pretty much useless when you've got a high-carbon steel like rail spikes. Once you've got it shaped and polished, heat it carefully to the point of non-magnetism. The colour depends on a lot of things, and is a poor guide of when to pull it out unless you're experienced. Yellow-white is not good, as it changes the grain size; a cherry red is what I've heard is the best, just past the austenite forming point. Do it at night or in a dark forge if you're going to judge by colour. Get a magnet to test it with otherwise.

But yes, once you've got it past non-magnetic (but not too far), hold it for just a bit (turning it into austenite) and then quench it in water (turning it into martensite).

To temper it, you want about 400F, not C; the iron will _not_ glow at that point. The "yellow" colour people refer to in tempering is the oxidization colours, which is a sheen like an oil slick you'll see on polished steel as it heats. I was confused about that too, at first.

So to be clear, "yellow hot" is when the iron glows, at 1200F+. "tempering to yellow" is when polished iron oxidizes at 400F. You want to get it roughly cherry hot, quench, then temper to yellow on the blade- but the easy way to temper is to set your home oven to aout 400 and leave the knife in for half an hour (ish; I'm not an expert knife maker).

>>102247
The tricky/traditional way to temper a blade is to get a red-hot chunk of iron and lay it on the back of the blade; the excess heat bleeds into the blade, and as the transferred heat increases and spreads the oxidization colours spread like waves; the farthest part (the blade) starts turning the low colours as the back of the blade (next to the red-hot heater held against it) is already much higher. This is why tempering colours are important, and it ensures the back of the blade will be softer (and less brittle, more bendable) while the edge retains hardness.

iow, if you do the easy tempering in the oven, the tempering colour is unimportant. The thinner parts of the blade will temper faster, but in general it'll be a more even temper, a bit softer in the blade a bit harder in the back. Way, way easier, from what I've heard.

Caveat; I've only read metallurgy books and done a _little_ bit of hardening. I'm actually putting the hardening/tempering knife stuff into practice for the first time this weekend, but everything I've said is accurate according to what I've been told by much more experienced smiths.

>>102291
>>102296
It sounds simple enough for me to be able to handle it, there will be a lot of trial and error, but it's nothing that can't be done. I'll keep on reading, this is actually a profession for me, my dad has a shop, pic related, it's one of his works, I've been helping him make that one. I can weld aluminum and iron decently and I've made all the scrolls on that. Learning about blacksmithing is good money for me, people always ask him to forge things but he doesn't know how so he usually refers them to someone else...

>>102326
Very cool! If you sniff around you might be able to find a local smith to show you some tips and mentor you. Google local blacksmith associations, maybe inquire at the local SCA chapter, they usually know or involve anyone in the area.

Once you have the basic skillset, check out deviantart's metal work section, there's some brilliant work out there, plenty of stuff to inspire experiment etc.

People undervalue smithing work, just to warn you. They think of things in modern, mass-production terms and prices, instead of the hand-worked/cottage production terms and prices. Refuse to cheat yourself; calculate steel costs, then what you need to be paid to make it worth your while. It'll sound extortianate to people used to shopping at Walmart, but remind them that a medieval sword cost as much as a house or car would today.

Anyway, good luck! You can find me on deviantart under the same username, if you post stuff to there hit me up so I can see what you make!

you could heat that spike to red in a well stoked campfire with enough airflow. Just make sure the iron is in the whitest part of the coals. Pull it out of the coals and hammer the shit out of it. When you are nearly finished with the shape quench it and hammer the rest of the edge while the piece is cold. (strain hardening) Then file and hone to edge. This will be sharp enough and hard enough for most any cutting you would do with a SS knife.

>>102345
>red
/suspiciouseyes He wants it orange or yellow to work it with any kind of ease.
>(strain hardening) Then file and hone to edge.
I do not think this is a good idea. Hardening and hammering blade-thin steel sounds like a recipe for cracking, to me. Ymmv but my inclination, and the guides I've read, all say to shape then harden.

Do it however you like. I have a knife like op's post, twist in handle and all. Used campfire. Took about an hour to get real basic shape. File work and hone stone took some time longer. I did not do too much cold hammering on the edge but i probably brought it to about 1/16 inch then filed the rest. My knife works, looks good, and is easy to explain how I did it when someone asks. I also built my own charcoal forge, but that was after this knife. Use a HEAVY hammer for most the work.

>>102339
One person I've met who does know a lot of blacksmithing does work for high class people, he showed me a coffee table that was very detailed and ornate, he forged it himself, it had a glass top, it was pretty cool looking. He said it took him about a month to make 200 hours more or less and he charged ~$12,000. Hes the same guy my dad directs people towards when they want something forged, I'm not talking about making swords or anything, just making what ever rich people want for stupid amounts of money. My father told me there's decent money in that, and it seems like a profession I'd really like to do, I already like doing the kind of work he does, i have all the resources available so why not give it a shot!

Anyway, thanks for the sound advice bro, it would be pretty awesome to find an apprentice spot with a blacksmith, I'd do it for free too

>>102361
Forgot to add that the guy will not teach ANYONE anything about blacksmithing...

>>102363
You wouldn't either if you tried blacksmithing. There is a reason why people used to go into aprrenticeships for years to learn the ropes.

does home depot or other big chain tool stores
sell bolt tongs?

>>102361

plus it will be an extremely useful skill once society collapses and we revert to a pre-industrial way of life

>>102361
My pleasure.
You have a roughly accurate idea of what you earn as an apprentice. Excellent. You'll either need to pay him or spend most of your time cleaning and doing scut work- but you'll learn!
>>102363
Probably because he's had to deal with a lot of people asking him to teach them for free, or starting and then quitting because it's hard work. The failure rate of "people interesting in blacksmithing" through to capable smiths is about 90%, I think, at least half in the first couple of months. Smithing causes muscle soreness and blisters, and most people aren't into that.
>>102382
No. They sell pliers. But you can use a big pair of pliers to hold the steel while you hammer out a pair of proper tongs. Youtube has a few good quality videos explaining the process. Smiths make all their own tools, partly because they can't be bought and partly because that way they can make them just right.

>>102242
> with a cool looking knife
Your first few knives will look like something found in a moist iron-age tomb.

No acutally, that would be insulting the rusted remains. It will look worse.

>>102577
My first few knives actually weren't bad. I started out using cheap china made files as the stock for the blade. Unfortunately while they looked nice, I couldn't get the tempering right and I broke the blades while bending them by hand. Convection and toaster ovens don't temper things very well.

http://www.tzknives.com/articles/GrainSize.html

More information on grain size and blade toughness; my earlier comment about "cherry" was, I think, vastly incorrect. The transformation temperature of a 1077 or 1095 is around 800-900, which is *just* the point the steel *starts* to glow a very very dull red. Cherry is about 1400. Holding a knife for a minute at very dull red is... well, awful hard, but if you can manage it you should get a much tougher knife.

Also;
http://www.smex.net.au/Reference/SteelColours.htm
note the explanation at the end about oxidization vs incandescence.

Correction; I was reading C and thinking F. Cherry red is about 1500F, which forms grains about 40-60 microns in size. But it's still quite sensitive to heat; at 1400F (dark cherry), you'll get 30 micron grains, and at 1600F (orange-red) you'll get 100 micron grains. The smaller the grains the more you get a combination of strength and toughness. It's also a little bit sensitive to time; holding at two hours instead of one minute will only about double your grain size.

Oh, hell, read my source yourself- it's a brilliant piece of work.
www.feine-klingen.de/PDFs/verhoeven.pdf

>>100552

This is a knife I made a few weeks ago (I made a double venturi atmospheric forge that get 3000+ of less than 10psi of propane, no electricity)

Don't forget to Quench your knife in a brine solution, You can find a lot online. Salt + Water + Dawn dishwashing liquid hardens the metal much more than simply quenching in water, so your knife is harder and holds a better edge.
I'll post a pic of the forge I made but you don't need anything nearly as big.

Oh yeah, the twist in the handle is made with a modified wrench i welded a second handle to (so I could twist evenly) and a blacksmith vice. I found a broken one on Craigslist for 25 bucks and fixed it up with a tool steel spring and spring retainer bracket. Its now probably worth about $200.

taken on my cellphone, sorry for the poor quality

This is just mild steel 3/16 inch thick plate
A 2 to 3 inch thick liner of Kaowool
And the Kaowool was coated in ITC 100 and 200

I TIG and MIG welded the body together myself

It gets 26 hours off a $20-25 dollar tank fill

All told the materials cost less than $200-250

It cost $450 after buying a good propane regulator and decent propane tank.

That knife is fucking badass!

>>102706
If you were talking about this
>>102697

Then thank you. Its been hardened to about 40-45 Rockwell using the superquench solution

/k/ is here

nice thread guys

>>102697
>>102704

I know this was rather poorly explained... I've been thinking about putting together a DIY PDF for my process but I'm worried about getting a lawsuit flung at me if some dumbass does something wrong.

>mfw this is just a hoboknife

>>102704
Interstingly that shitty cellphone pic gives a better indicator of the temperatures involved. The purplish look is due to the mobile sensor(cheap and lacking IR filters) picking up near infrared.

>>102326

Why paint it when you're going to be grinding it down?

>>102720

Yeah, I use about 24 inch tongs and a pair of really thick welding gloves (Not TIG gloves)

The tubular shape of the forge walls allows the flame jet from the two propane nozzles to evenly heat the whole forge, I have some High Alumina bricks in the middle of the forge I rest the Spike directly on and it heats up to working temp in less than 2 minutes.

>>102704

Full view of forge

>>102742

This is prior to application of ITC 100/200 but it's a good view of how the flame blowers fit in

>>102744
>>102742
>>102704

If people want I can upload some more photos of the forge and flame blowers, If not I'll go back to lurking.

>>102749
Very well done, but I think I'll stick to the Washtub Forge, it's only 80 bucks (a days work for me at my job). I don't really have all the tools to make the forge you have or the money, right now I'm looking for a local place to get my railroad "anvil". I live in west palm beach florida if anyone knows a place!

You should probably make a guide on how to make that forge though, someone with a bit more money for hobbies might want to tackle that.

>>100552

I'm cross board on this one, but considering I have some experience with jury rigged blacksmithing, all you really need is a break drum forge with a hairdryer off of a T bar to function as a ash catch. ModernBlacksmith on youtube did a series on it. Then find yourself a section of railroad and a buy a decent hammer and dress it with a sanding wheel.
A pair of gloves some decent tongs a little time and should have the whole thing done.

>>102813

Not OP, but I once got to the stage of annealing then stock removing an old carbon-steel file.

I've yet to attach a handle, since i wasn't sure of the tang type i wanted. What do you typically use?
And

Also, do you need a refractory material for your brake drum forge?

>>102827

It'll save on coal and raise the heat. Get the heat up, put the spike in (in the coals), then put some fire bricks over it. Turn on hair dryer.

You can pick these up near any train track the sees regular use. The workers pull the old one and chuck them when they do repairs. I have hundreds of them.

>>102831
That's a misdimeanor, bro.

>>102831
So just go near any train track and i'll likely find some? Also where the hell do I find a piece railroad rail, i've been searching on google for hours....

>>102883
scrap yards will sell them to you

it is probably been mentioned before, but there's lots of videos on YouTube about this. TL; DR you make a fire pit, add a source of wind to jack up the heat, and get that mother Fokker red hot then beat that son of a bitch with the ball peen Hammer.

>>102936
Specifically the flat side of a ball peen.

>>102936

What is this about hitting the side of a red-hot poker with my penis?

>>102883

You pretty much just need to drive around. Obviously follow train tracks to staging areas which are every few miles, they'll have old track thrown around sometimes.

It took me two days of looking and I found a good 2 foot long chunk. Shaped it with Carbon Arc and a grinder, and wham, instant mini anvil, pretty much for free.

It just takes a little footwork.

>>103160
> they'll have old track thrown around sometimes.

How do I cut off a chunk to scurry away with? Those bastards are heavy and won't fit in my car.

>>103223

Its just luck, they often have chunks between 1 and 4 feet. You just have to keep looking till you find something that fits.

Never buy a Cast Iron anvil, it contains Graphite veins that can cause HUGE chunks to shear off under use. If you don't have a good anvil then the energy your putting into your work is wasted.
If you ever want to get serious about smithing, invest in an anvil with a steel top or solid steel anvil.

>>102831

This.

For the guys looking for the actual spikes, just go to ANY railroad tracks and walk them. You'll find them all over the place. They just toss the old ones all over when they replace them.

It's probably technically stealing (and you're trespassing just walking the tracks actually), but they just leave them there to rust so I don't see the harm.

But you could easily fill a pillow sack with more than you could carry in a few hours.

>>102883


Same as the spikes. Just walk down the tracks and you should find some. A lot of times they do the same as with the spikes and just roll the tracks out of the way when they replace them. Hell, you can find all kinds of good metal near Train Tracks. Luckily I live less than forty yards from a set, so I don't every have a real problem getting metal scraps.

This is a great thread. It's got me interested in trying some things that I've been wondering about. However, I do want to throw something out there for the beginners to think about. WEAR EYE PROTECTION. When I was about twelve, I got the bright idea of trying to 'forge' a blade from flat stock, using my dad's acetylene torch. I got it red hot, hit it with a hammer, and a tiny little glowing bit flew into my eye. I went to the eye doc and he had to DRILL IT OUT. Overall, I'd say it is an experience not worth repeating.

I have a 100 lb steel anvil that I got for free when my highschool got rid of their metalshop program.

I think I'm also the guy who posted that image on /diy/ first. Haha.

You can make free scrap into cool knives! Go to a scrapyard, chances are, they'll give you a random leaf spring for free.

Fixed > Folder

can i just use my wood burning stove?

>>104470
or my hob?

>>104470
Not enough heat.

Unless you use it to boil water, then use high pressure steam to operate a press / hammer to cold forge something.

>>104374
Thats a knife? In 9th grade our metalshop teacher had us making bottle openers that looked like that except not so much curve.
I found a broken bastard file, and procceeded to file down my blade. Fuck forging, ill just go back to my junior high, pay 3 bucks to kids making these, and sell them to retards who want a knife.

I have a few pictures of a forge I made with my friends. Sorry about the poor quality pictures (Taken on my phone)

>>104591

>>104593

>>104594

>>104595

>>104596

>>104598
Those are the pictures I've taken. I use the forge for melting and pouring metals rather than blacksmithing. It's hot enough to melt aluminium(not hard) and copper. We believe its hot enough for melting steel but we need to buy a new crucible before we can start.

Everything is done on a normal propane tank with nothing added and a shop vac for blowing air into it.

>>104601
Some ingots we made: Right after the pour

>>104603
Another freshly poured one

>>104604
After they cooled

>>104582
The steel used for leaf springs if really high quality steel.

Gonna post it here since I didn't see a general "Make a knife" thread.

Wouldn't it be much easier to make a blade by buying a piece of sheet metal (say 5mm thick), cutting out the shape (with a torch), grinding the final shape, polishing, heat treating and then finally sharpening it?

What I'm getting at is, aren't the metals you can get from your local here-be-building-stuffs shop already at a quality level in where you wouldn't need to treat it any further before actually making the blade? I know cheaper, mass produced knives are basically just stamped out of large sheets of metal anyway, so couldn't one do a single blade the same way?

>>104661
No. It isnt heat tempered at all. The carbon isnt nearly high enough to be bard enough to hold an edge for very long at all.

>>104601
Oh man, mechanically aspirated propane, that's the ticket. Loud but so easy. Kaolin wool's not a bad choice (it's what I use in my dinky little setup), but if you want to melt steel you'll either want to add another layer of it, or pour yourself a new/smaller one out of refractory cement. Blown propane definitely gets hot enough to melt steel, your main issues are going to be air mix and heat loss. Also, I'd suggest replacing the bottom kaolin with a couple of firebricks; better heat retention and it won't compress (and lose effect) with use.

fyi, the melting point of Al and Cu are 660 and 1080 degrees C, but iron is 1500. Any blacksmith's forge can hit Cu melting points, but not all of them can hit iron's. I've melted iron by accident in my coal forge, but my tiny naturally aspirated propane forge has never come close. Good luck, and post pics!

>>104661
Metallurgy time! (read a good book this weekend on it)

Iron and carbon goes through phases (like water has liquid, solid, and gas), some of which are soft and some of which are hard. Most steel is shipped in its soft phase so it's easy to work. There's three kinds of iron you care about; ferrite with carbides (soft pure iron with floating bits of carbon), austenite (hot iron with carbon atoms inside the atomic structure), and martensite (cold iron with an atomic structure much like austenite's). All three can be made from the same piece of steel.

When you heat steel past about 780C, the soft structure of ferrite starts to loosen up and get bigger, turning into austenite, and the small carbon atoms from the carbides rushes into the gaps between the big iron atoms. At 815C or so, depending on the steel, the ferrite should be fully transformed.

If you cool it back down slowly (in the air), the carbon atoms get squeeze back out of the austenite and turn back into carbides as the austenite becomes ferrite again. BUT, if you cool it down quickly (plunging it into water), the austenite atomic structures clamp down on the carbon, trapping it- and in turn the austenite structure gets "stuck" in the more open state, even though it's cool and it should be ferrite. This is martensite.

Martensite is hard but brittle (Rockwell 50-60), ferrite is soft but ductile (30-40).

>>104661
All that said, yes, you can stamp out a knife blank , shape it, and heat treat it. Plenty of smiths I know cut knife blanks out of leaf spring. This assumes you know what steel it is, though. Most of the sheet metal and rod stock I've seen in hardware stores is mild, which is to say low-carbon, steel. Without carbon, you can't jam the austenite open when you're cooling it. Steel supply stores usually have "W1" (water-cooling 1) or "1095" (10: plain iron-carbon and maybe molybdenum, 95: 0.95% carbon, anything over about .06 or .77 is hardenable) or "drill rod," it's all the same stuff and you can harden that just fine.

tl;dr: Yes, but it's unlikely you'll find the right kind of steel to do that with in a hardware store.

Also, after heat treating, you need to temper (heat it up around 250-400C to convert some of the martensite into ferrite, so the knife gets a _little_ softer and won't shatter like glass when you tap it).

Pic unrelated; the always-in-progress setup I work with. Note the tiger torch in the bottom section, which is a silly and hopefully short-term kludge while I get my venturi blower finished and the nozzle threads adapted. Note also the teeny-tiny forge with firebrick base, which is perfect for small items and a total pisser for most of the stuff I've been working on this weekend. I'm pouring myself a larger forge in the next couple of months.

>>104688
>>104697
Cheers, a lot of good info.

I do know the very basics of heat-treating and whatnot; what happens with the molecular structure and such when you heat metal, and why tempering is also a must (and which parts to temper after a blade is made).

But yeah, that was kind of my main question: if you can even find metal which can be hardened from a "regular" store. Well, have to dig around a bit. I'm not going to be building a forge so I'm kind of thinking about some easier and not so heavy (investment wise) methods.

Although now that I think about it, it might not be a terrible excercise to get the not-optimal steel and proceed to cut a knife shape and mold it so it'll at least look nice. Just to get into the grinding.

>>104727
Nothing wrong with practice! Keep in mind, though, that grinding will heat the surface right up to 800+C, so without a forge or a way to get austenite again anything you grind is going to be soft.

You _can_ find good steel in scrap yards, for cheap. Most car panels, from what I understand, are 1050+, which while not ideal is sufficient. Plus leaf springs, etc.

Just so you know, you can build a propane forge for about $40, if you've got somewhere you can use it. Kaolin wool is cheap, stuff it in a $5 chimney pipe, cut a hole in the side and fire a $15 torch bottle through it. Or, if you're handy with pipe fittings/welding, you can build your own venturi burner for $20 and get lots more heat.

Anyway, have fun and good luck!

bump for awesome thread

What does this thread think of my first ever sword?

>>105611
I think you should ask /b/.

I'm kidding, I saw how they treated you. It's not bad looking for a first try. I have no idea how functional it is though.

>>105611
IANAbladesmith, but I do a little smith work. I'm going to be mean. I apologize for that.

It looks like a first attempt. Nothing wrong with that, but you've got plenty of things to work on and make better swords.

The spine's not on an even curve. To fix this you need practice with drawing down. Form the blade shape first, make sure the spine is smooth, then draw down the blade.
The blade surface is beat to hell. You obviously tried to polish it, but the low spots didn't get scrubbed. To fix this, you need to planish it; normalize the blade once or twice, then cold-hammer it lightly on a smooth part of the anvil with a broad-faced hammer.
The edge is of variable depth and I'd be willing to bet it wobbles. You can solve some of that with planishing (normalize, though, or the blade will crack). When you're filing the edge down, make sure your strokes are at equal angles to the blade all the way down.
Your tang... I can't offer any solid advice without seeing more detail. Unwrap it and show us the other side of the handle.
You haven't given any details on what steel you used or how you heat-treated it. I assume you grabbed whatever you could find, which means that this will probably bend the first time you try to hit something with it. I can't see how thick the spine is, but it looks like it might be too thin, too.

Anyway, the point of first attempts is to do things wrong, so that your second attempt can start to address them. You've done the hardest part, which is exposing your terrible work to people who have some idea of what they're doing. Your next piece will be better, and it will be easier to post and hear advice about. Keep going. Make more, post them here. In five years I'll be able to say "Yeah, I knew Anon before he made gorgeous blades."

>>105716
sir, that was the best constructive criticism ive ever heard. thank you for being a great person

Bump for really awesome thread.

Skill in blacksmithing would go really neatly with skill in herbalism (lol irl wow). But since I'm a student and don't own a house, let alone a tool shed I'd need another place to forge.

Would investing in a community garden be an idea?

>>105741
Haha! XD Well, thanks and you're welcome.

>>105744
In my experience, you need about a 6'X6' space in which to put all your tools with an empty space in the center. You need another 6'X6' for all your coal and steel. That's a lot of garden space that's not available, plus smoke and fire which makes the neighbors nervous. I think it'd depend on the garden.

However, many cities have historical parks, or parks with a shed or two put aside for historical displays. You may want to hunt around your city and see if anyone's using those spots; they may be willing to teach you if you're willing to work. I know my city, which is a dinky 60,000, has a forge down in the river park, and displays at the rodeo grounds. Sniff around this summer at your local rodeo, you might be able to find some local smiths willing to help you out- as long as you start by offering to help sweep the shop and carry things.

>>105834
A quick google revealed some spots. I'm heading to town tomorrow anyway, so I'll ask around and follow your advice. Thanks.

>>105834
to add on this, look around for ferriers. Many of the higher end ferriers still make their own shoes (when they actually use iron/steel shoes). If you can apprentice/generally help out around the shop with one of them, you'll learn a lot.