/ck/ - Food & Cooking

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456162]

Professional baker, here. I usually try to flip my sleep schedule back to normal on the weekends but I don't think it's happening tonight. If anyone has any bread baking or small business running questions, I'll be around for a bit.

[Anonymous No.12456165]

>>12456162
whats your favorite bread to make and to eat? how much time do you devote to making new bread recipes? and how successful are those new recipes usually? hope your bakery is doing well op

[The Bakery pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456185]

>>12456165

>whats your favorite bread to make and to eat?

Ciabatta, probably (pictured left). It's a unique dough in that, at every step, you try to degas as little as physically possible, and you never actually end up shaping it. It's like you have this whiny, bratty, delicate little dough that will get fucked if you even sneeze near it, but when it comes out good it comes out great.

>how much time do you devote to making new bread recipes?

Basically none, actually. Before I bought the bakery we only did the one french style dough baked into a few different shapes (two top loaves). I added the ciabatta and honey wheat seed bread soon after taking over, which have both done super well, but we're known mostly for the french bread so its production precludes me from branching out too far.

>hope your bakery is doing well op

Thanks, anon. Things are going pretty fantastically, actually. Training new staff right now so that's anxiety inducing, and currently formulating a plan to work a little bit less so I have more time to pay attention to the business end of things, but overall, we're doing really well.

[Anonymous No.12456520]

How did you get your business started? I'm intrigued by the idea of going into business for myself as well, and thought a bakery wouldn't be a bad idea.

Making some croissants right now, gonna be bomb.

[Anonymous No.12456530]

This is exactly what I wanted. I've been doing a lot of baking lately. Been practicing mainly bread and pies. Bread is okay, pies are terrible.
I want you to explain to me the effects of different gluten developing/shortening methods. I know more kneading develops gluten more but what does that actually do? Firmer bread? Denser bread? How does it affect it. Same with salt, acid, etc for shortening gluten.
Oil is for soft, butter is for layers right?
I see videos of people tossing around a very clearly soft as fuck ball of dough that should be way stickier than it is. It's sticking a bit to their table but not at all to their hands. If I try to make one that soft I just get a gluey soup. Any more flour and it seems denser than theirs. I don't understand.
How do I make burger buns? I tried one anons suggestion and it somehow made lovely scones.
Also any recommendations for different types of bread I can practice? Specifically ones that don't require I go out and get specialized ingredients.

Anon I'm trying REALLY hard to learn to bake well. I want to be real good.

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456556]

>>12456520

>How did you get your business started?

I didn't start it, actually. Started as a delivery driver/occasional baking assistant at an established bakery, worked up to head baker over a few years and eventually bought it from the owners when they wanted to move out of state to be closer to family.

I had to go through the process of starting my own LLC, going through licensing and zoning procedures and all of that, but in terms of starting totally from scratch, I don't have as much experience.

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456574]

>>12456530


Off the bat, I'll tell you I know little to nothing about pastries. I only do bread.

As far as gluten development in bread, the two predominant methods are kneading and folding. The former works a lot of strength into the dough in a short amount of time, while the latter does it slowly in many folds over hours.

Kneading is good for production baking because you don't always have 6 hours to work strength into a dough, but for home purposes, simply mixing the dough by hand and giving it a stretch and fold every 40 or so minutes for the first 3 hours of bulk fermentation can work a similar amount of strength into the gluten network, but benefit from the longer fermentation time.

Strong gluten allows the bread to have a good oven spring (how much it rises in the oven) and is one of several factors that contributes to a nice open rather than dense crumb. Dough with a weak gluten structure will fall flat and be dense.

For sticking, it's often a matter of keeping your hands floured well and working quickly with the dough such that it doesn't get a chance to stick to your hands. My general recommendation for any dough work is to do it 50% faster than you think you should. People get in their head about exactly what movements they should be doing and it ends up slowing them down so much that the result is always terrible.

For starting out I'd recommend getting the book Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast. Forkish does a great job explaining the reasoning behind the methods he recommends and puts out guidelines that will get a beginner home baker closer to bakery quality bread quicker than anything else, imo.

[Anonymous No.12456583]

>>12456162
Do I need a cast iron skillet/pan or a Dutch oven to bake sourdough bread in my oven?

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456588]

>>12456583

I'd recommend a dutch oven for at home baking. It really does effectively mimic steam injection.

[Anonymous No.12456591]

>>12456162
Do you keep a shotgun behind the counter. You know......for minorities

[Anonymous No.12456592]

how do I make good, crispy bread.

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456598]

>>12456592

See >>12456588.

Steam is one of the most important factors in developing a crispy, dark crust rather than a soft light one.

[Anonymous No.12456599]

Can I make my own sourdough starter by just keeping some water+flour in a jar out on my countertop for a few days? Will it taste good?

Can I bake cornbread in a ceramic pan or is a cast iron preferred?

Is pic related equivalent to Dutch oven?

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456618]

>>12456599

>Can I make my own sourdough starter by just keeping some water+flour in a jar out on my countertop for a few days? Will it taste good?

You need to keep discarding a portion and re-feeding it every day. Standard levain is 100% hydration (i.e. equal mass flour and water). Each day discard about 2/3 and replenish with a fresh mix at 100% hydration. Often after about a week you can start using for bread, and it'll likely taste good.

>Can I bake cornbread in a ceramic pan or is a cast iron preferred?

I've only ever used a cast iron but I don't see why a ceramic pan wouldn't work just fine. Cast iron is probably more about the aesthetic than anything else.

>Is pic related equivalent to Dutch oven?

Yup. Just need to trap in all the steam that's coming out of the dough. Remember you have to remove the lid for the final part of the bake, though.

[Anonymous No.12456633]

Is xylitol a meme or can I use it as a sugar substitute in making a flourless chocolate cake?

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456637]

>>12456633

My girlfriend has Lyme disease and therefore does medically necessary low carb. She uses stevia. Truvia is a pretty good brand, it seems. Just remember to use the conversion factors because it's not a 1:1 sugar replacement.

[Anonymous No.12456653]

>>12456162
Oh boy OP, i love baking bread with a passion but i can't seem to develop a nice, airy crumb in my loafs. How would i go about this? What are the basics?

[Anonymous No.12456660]

If I want fresh bread every day, can I just prep dough and place in the fridge? Baking it freshly daily?

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456661]

>>12456653

It can be a combination of different factors, but it is most often to do with the intermingling of a strong fermentation, a strong gluten network, and very gentle handling of the dough.

The biggest factor is probably fermentation. If it doesn't get a good enough proof, not only will it not have the gas there to make the holes in the first place, but the gentle strengthening of the gluten structure through rising won't have happened. Try bumping up the dough temperature, fermentation time, or ratio of preferment.

[Anonymous No.12456664]

How can I get really black bread without using charcoal?

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456673]

>>12456660

Yup. Make the dough, let it bulk ferment, shape the loaf, then retard in the fridge until you want to bake it. Let it come back up in temp a bit before going into the oven.

>>12456664

Use a dutch oven for the steam benefits, and use partially rye or whole wheat flour, which darken up really nicely before actually burning.

[Anonymous No.12456677]

Baking is a _______ not an ______

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456691]

>>12456677

For the whole art/science thing, baking is a science in the same sense that hitting a fastball is. Sure, it all breaks down to scientific components, and if you knew each and every one of those variables you could do it by the numbers each time, but you don't know each and every one of those variables, and they're different every time.

It's definitely not on the level of cooking where you simply taste and adjust, but the adjustments you do make aren't always going to be accounted for in a recipe. If I'm in the bakery and notice that it's extra humid, I might toss in an extra scoopful of flour to a batch, or if the dough isn't strengthening up like I think it should I'll give it an additional fold.

Ultimately, you scientifically account for every variable that it is reasonable to do so for, but the rest is going on your gut.

[Anonymous No.12456706]

What’s your favorite dessert to bake?

What’s your favorite bread (style, flavor)?

What’s your favorite chocolate based baked good?

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456717]

>>12456706

>What’s your favorite dessert to bake?

Hmm. Pie? I only do bread at my bakery and my girlfriend has to do low carb so I don't do much dessert baking at home.

>What’s your favorite bread (style, flavor)?

I'm partial to ciabatta, but I used to do vollkornbrot on occasion which is a wild fucking bread. 100% rye at super high hydrations. You have to let it sit for 48 hours out of the oven before it's even ready, and when it is, Jesus it's a dank loaf.

>What’s your favorite chocolate based baked good?

One of the restaurants I sell bread to has an absolutely fantastic chocolate torte.

[Anonymous No.12456721]

As a baker, what is the best so cal bread bakery ? And why are there so few bakeries in so cal compared to literally anywhere else?

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456725]

>>12456721

Honestly don't know. I'm an east coaster.

[Anonymous No.12456727]

>>12456717
>vollkornbrot
How do you make this?

Also,

Your Opinion on einkorn bread?

>chocolate torte
What’s the best way to go about this?

[Anonymous No.12456729]

In your view, what country has the best bread tradition?

[Anonymous No.12456736]

>>12456725
Any bakeries from LA or SoCal that you hear good things about?

Opinion on SF’s Tartine?

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456744]

>>12456727

I don't have my recipe book on hand but this one is similar.

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/vollkornbrot-recipe

Never worked with einkorn flour and I don't do pastries, so can't really answer those questions, sorry.

>>12456736

I'm really not on the pulse of west coast bakeries, or any other bakeries, for that matter. I'm pretty occupied just getting our bread out the door.

[Anonymous No.12456750]

>>12456530
I believe in you SkeleBaker, please try your best!

[Anonymous No.12456756]

are you fat?

[Anonymous No.12456758]

>>12456744
Answer this please >>12456729

[The Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12456762]

>>12456756

6'2", 178 lbs.

>>12456758

Sorry, missed it. I'm partial to the German tradition because that's the main tradition my mentor drew from. I think Italian breads tend to be really interesting, too.

[Anonymous No.12456851]

Ok I’m starting a sourdough starter, what flour should I use? Whole? Bread? AP? Rye?

[Anonymous No.12456859]

>>12456851

Try for organic flour. Rye is often used in the first few days of building a starter before building it out into what you want it to ultimately be. Also, once it's going, consider including various ingredients like rye chops, cracked wheat, spelt, etc.

[Anonymous No.12457927]

>>12456162
recipe for pizza dough using one yeast packet (.75oz) ??

[Anonymous No.12457933]

>>12456162
What financial statements does your accountant prepare and does he do them monthly?

[Anonymous No.12458037]

>>12457933
Why would you need an accountant to do it monthly? You get a bookkeeper to do that and a proper accountant to do that quarterly for tax filing purposes. That's the way I've always seen it done and did it at small businesses, it's a bakery afterall, not some huge megacorporation.

>>12456162
Do you get a lot of hot interns there that you can bang?

[Anonymous No.12458067]

Great thread so far. I don't know if you'll come back, but:

1) What was that transition from employee to owner like? Around how much did you pay for the store? What are the monthly expenses for basic upkeep (not including labor)?
2) What would be the most likely factor for a bakery to make a steady amount of revenue? (Location, price, variety, # of employees, etc.)
3) What exactly do you do on the "business" side of things, aside from hiring/training staff?
4) Did you have to go to trade school or something to get here? Do you only hire people with some experience?

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12458183]

>>12457927

Wish I had my recipe book with me. I'll try to see if I can get it on Tuesday and maybe I'll post a new thread or this one won't be archived yet.

>>12457933

I was doing all the bookkeeping myself but hired someone to do all the day to day stuff for me, and then my accountant does one year end run through it all for taxes. I theoretically am supposed to do quarterly run thrus of the numbers with my accountant but I haven't had the chance since tax season.

>>12458037

>Do you get a lot of hot interns there that you can bang?

Nope.

[Anonymous No.12458192]

>>12458067
the juice is loose

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12458202]

>>12458067

>1) What was that transition from employee to owner like?

About two months of the previous owners training me up on business end things like invoicing and tax filings, along with them helping me set up my LLC and get all of the proper licencing and paperwork done. It's a nightmare of a process that gets bogged down in a bureaucratic mess and I'd be happy to never do it again.

>Around how much did you pay for the store?

Not much. The previous owners were moving out of state to be closer to an ailing family member so they priced it to sell. Sold at 115k and financed 90k of it through them directly.

>What are the monthly expenses for basic upkeep (not including labor)?

Everything told (including financing payments and labor) is around 16-18k/month. Financing is 3k of that and labor is 8k.

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12458209]

>>12458202

>2) What would be the most likely factor for a bakery to make a steady amount of revenue? (Location, price, variety, # of employees, etc.)

Being in a place that appreciates local food is a big help, and the thing that we have going for us specifically is efficiency. We do exclusively wholesale so we don't have to worry about getting customers in and out the door, and between me and my assistant baker, in a 400 sq foot building, we can do 1000+ loaves of bread in a night. Figuring out how to stagger mixing/proofing/baking times such that the entire day flows and there's no down time can let you do a lot with very little overhead.

>3) What exactly do you do on the "business" side of things, aside from hiring/training staff?

I did the books at the beginning but hired someone else a few months back. I deal directly with all of our customers, fix anything that goes wrong, do all of the day to day things like pay bills and use taxes and things like that. Basically, I bake every night and then during the day put out all the fires that come up.

>4) Did you have to go to trade school or something to get here? Do you only hire people with some experience?

I dropped a full tuition physics scholarship a semester into college and moved to a hippie commune where I learned to bake, among other things. I moved to the city when I left there and continued baking at home, did a couple different shit jobs and then got the delivery driver/assistant baker job at the bakery.

Experience is a big bonus but the two biggest things I look for are reliability and an ability to learn quickly.

[Anonymous No.12458292]

>>12458202
>>12458209
Thanks for the response. I assumed you owned a relatively small bakery with a few people and didn't sell wholesale. How are you doing that from a 400sq foot building? I'm guessing you sell to local businesses, right? Are most of the contracts ones that the previous owners had, or have you gained them yourself? Any advertising tips?

[Anonymous No.12458319]

I can make a decent loaf of no-knead bread in a Dutch oven -- pic related -- but getting a loaf with those nice big bubbles in it eludes me, no matter what I do. It's exasperating. Ditto on thin crust pizza. Tips?

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12458323]

>>12458292

We are still a pretty small operation (me and 3 employees) but we supply a lot of the local restaurants and markets. A significant portion of my customer base is from previously, but I've added customers and expanded production by about 35% overall while cutting on costs by just doing a lot myself. I don't advertise at all since our bread is out everywhere in my city, so new customers generally call me.

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12458325]

>>12458319

See >>12456661

[Anonymous No.12458337]

>>12456661
>>12458325
>bumping up the dough temperature, fermentation time, or ratio of preferment
As so desu.

[Anonymous No.12458367]

>>12458209

>Experience is a big bonus but the two biggest things I look for are reliability and an ability to learn quickly.

not the guy who asked but thanks for responding. there's this german bakery near me that I go to that always has a "hiring" sign up that I thought about applying at. they do the sourdough, rustic bread thing which is nice since it seems like most bakeries around here are of the pastries/cakes/sweets variety. its the only bakery in my area that I know of that does a variety of legit brotchen, country rye bread (weizenmischbrot), etc. they have a small storefront but seems like most of their business is a wholesale/delivery operation like yours. anyways, maybe i'll fill out an app next week and see if I can convince the owner to let me clean-up/man the register for a while for the shot at getting trained at being a legit baker.

[Anonymous No.12458387]

>>12458323
Sounds awesome

[Anonymous No.12458409]

What mixer do you use, or would recommend? I'm using a Varimixer W20 20qt but i'm starting to need a bigger one and this one's motor has crapped out like 3 times and I've had to get my friend's dad to repair it

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12458565]

>>12458367

Go for it!

>>12458409

For small stuff I have a Hobart and for big 2-300 lb batches I have a Kemper spiral mixer.

[Anonymous No.12458619]

>>12456574
Thanks a bunch anon! I'll Do my best and read that book. That answered a lot of my curiosities.

>>12456750
I will! Thank you

[Anonymous No.12459757]

Tell me about fermentation. Does longer always equal better? If I know I won't want my bread until tomorrow night should I start it in the morning and just keep pounding it down, letting it rise, repeat? Fridge or countertop?

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12459905]

>>12459757

It often equals better up to a point. You can stretch a bulk fermentation at room temp out to 6 ish hours if you try hard enough, and can potentially retard shaped loaves in the fridge up to a few days. Longer than 6 hours on the counter and things can go weird, and rye and whole wheat doughs don't take as well to retarding.

[Anonymous No.12459939]

>>12456162
you close on weekends?

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12459955]

>>12459939

We send bread out Tu - Sa. Most restaurants are closed Sunday and retailers don't do much business on Monday.

[Anonymous No.12461991]

>>12456162
bread daily i love it the warmer the better

[Anonymous No.12462022]

at my new work place i have access to a big old deck oven and ive been having a little go a baking in actual professional oven rather than home one and i wondering how do i get a nice steam environment for sourdough it just always seems a little empty (i only bake 4 loaves at a time)
also any tips on shaping baguettes or ciabatta?

[Anonymous No.12462251]

Got into baking bread recently, I would like to make a large batch of dough and put it in a freezer or something so I can cut off a piece every evening, let it thaw overnight, and have fresh-ish dough in the morning for some fresh bread.

Is freezing the dough bad? If no, how long can it sit in the freezer? Also I remember reading a pizza making forum and the opinion there was that dough that rose in the fridge ended up being tastier or somehow better, what's up with that?

[Anonymous No.12462267]

>>12462251
Nvm I'm retarded no need to answer good luck with your bakery baker anon

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12462440]

>>12462022

Double check to see if it has steam injection. If not, with only a few loaves, it's going to be even harder than a home oven to get steamed up properly.

Baguettes - be gentle and work faster than you think you should. Don't be afraid to roll out individual sections more or less for an even with.

Ciabatta - you don't really shape ciabatta, just cut it to shape after its bulk ferment, but be incredibly gentle. Handle it like it'll die at the slightest nudge.

[Anonymous No.12463567]

>>12456162
actually good thread

[Anonymous No.12464913]

Bump

[The_Baker pt. II !!VyIROBcMkwf No.12465123]

I should be doing my invoicing right now but lately I've been putting it off until I get home from the bakery in the morning, then doing them real quick and running them back in before the delivery drivers leave.

One of the hardest parts of running a business is probably forcing yourself to sit down and do the administrative things that need done. I can spend 16 hours straight in the bakery on a Friday night to get all the bread made and it doesn't phase me, but sitting down to do invoicing, or responding to emails, etc., can feel like an impossible task sometimes.