/ck/ - Food & Cooking

*knive* not knight

For only $8 at Chinese tools r us, I got a lovely chef knife with a wood saw in the back for freshly cutting some kindling or aromatic branches, vois law

Like share and update this post to show why mobile posters ought to be barred from making new threads

>>8676762
>vois law

>>8676762

this is like a hunting knife, right?

>>8676588
ARE YOU READY FOR THE JAP VS WESTERN KNIFE DEBATE THAT GETS REPEATED EVERY THREAD?!!??!!

>>8676835

is that the case? I'm pretty new to /ck/...

>>8676848
Sorta, generally you get anti-weebs attempting to trigger weebs by making fun of Japanese steel. Occasionally you get sperg lord weebs who think Japanese steel is literally the greatest invention in modern history. In reality both sides are trying to trigger each other thinking it's funny and both sides end up thinking they triggered the other more than they were triggered.

However some actual decent discussion does occasionally happen and there are a few posters with decent metallurgical knowledge.

>>8676867

yeah I'm just interested in good knives, pretty sure there are great knives on either side...

>>8676848
the german knife luddites always rave about samurai folded steel because they have no idea about modern knife manufacture, and the people who have a clue about this stuff either bait them or try to teach them about how it works in reality (decent japanese brands use modern steel that is not folded and comes from mostly either Hitachi or Sandvik, the latter being a Swedish brand)

german knives are, at best, made of x50crmov15 which sacrifices edge stability for being able to be used as a can opener and bashing through frozen blocks of hamburger meat

you can get japanese knives that are more than adequate for cutting bones and shit, but some people here who aren't used to picking the right tool for the job mistook the german "do everything badly" approach for actual knife quality

>>8676874
Yup great knives exist from both sides. In the US you'll be paying more for a Japanese blade because it has to be imported and the market isn't nearly as big for it, some people here on 4chan believe spending money for anything besides preformance is retarded, so they see someone buying a $200 Japanese knife when they could've gotten 2 or 3 decent western knives for the same price and their autism kicks in.

And on the other side of the table you get weebs who think a $200-500 Japanese blade is somehow magically going to improve their cooking skill or be 10x sharper than a western blade. Now there can be some actual differences in preformance and wear, but not to a huge degree with good knifes.

>>8676814
Multipurpose field to kitchen

>>8676807
If you are so new as to not know the voila mémè then I oblige you to post and say you are an idiot sandwich, good day.

>>8676913
>x50crmov15

If you're using your expensive chef knife to open a can, you're kinda lost...

i really cant claim to know that much about knives because like the majority of people, i used like 3 serious knives in my life.

imho once you have a decently hard steel and know how to sharpen your knife you can basically use every model which feels comfortable, which is consistent with ramsay claiming the key in a good knife lies in its handle. oh and maybe dont go for a super thin and brittle japanese one if you are clumsy.

i feel like a common beginner mistake is to choose a knife with a much to short blade, once you have learned the professional grip and correct technique everything below 8 inch feels a little awkward to use. dont get me started on my parents cutting onions with pairing knives.

that being sad i own a 23cm wüsthof classic and am very happy with it as its very robust, the steel keeps a good edge and it fits my hands pretty well.

>>8676950
>once you have learned the professional grip and correct technique everything below 8 inch feels a little awkward to use

I'll disagree with you here, I have a 10" (23cm) Wusthof classic as well and I simply find it too large for my daily needs, I find myself using a 6.5" santoku as its almost always more comfortable and less awkward to cut with.

>>8676946
the x50crmov knife set was the obligatory wedding present since the baby boom generation, many many wusthofs have been used to open cans and other dumb shit. if they were using knives optimized for cutting food they'd have gone out of business from all the angry customers returning their "defective" damaged knives

>>8676963
i think a smaller knife is a good addition to a medium sized one for some more flexibility especially when you are cooking for only you but if you had to choose only one, i'd always recommend a bigger one. provided that your cutting board is large enough. when im at my parents and cooking i use their (also really good) 6" solicut which is sufficient most of the time - but its a little annoying when im cutting asparagus for 4 people.

>>8676991
Yea for work purposes I can agree, but for a home kitchen I rarely use larger blades, I'm usually cooking for myself or 1 other so it's never a lot. And while I have decent counter top space my primary cutting board is only 8x14" with about 2" taken up by a juice groove. So not a great size for a 10" blade.

I'm moving into an apartment and I don't have any of my own knives. I don't cook much at all and I'm not very good at it. I want to teach myself how to cook. What knives should I buy?

Pls help, I'm retarded

>>8677024

IMHO you only need one good knife, rather big, sharp, also get a sharpener..

>>8677024
i think its common knowledge to go for (in this exact order)
>all purpose chefs knife + proper cutting board
>small knife for more precise cutting
>large serrated edge knife
and some veg pealer is always very handy.

>>8677024
If you have a bit of money investing in 2 or 3 "good" knives isn't a bad idea. You'll want a ~8" chefs knife or if you prefer Japanese style 170-200mm santoku/gyuto. A pairing knife (or petty knife for Japanese style). And depending what you like a bread knife or cleaver type knife for meats.

If you only can afford two knives an 8" chef and a pairing knife are your primary tools. Wusthof is a good large production brand for nice western knives and Shun is good for Japanese knives.

>>8677035
>>8677033
oh yeah, and getting a sharpener with your chefs knife ensures that you can resharpen if it starts to feel blunt. but get a sharpener, not only a honing rod, those japanese waterstones are good and quite easy to use.

>>8677024
get a chefs choice electric sharpener and some dexters from the restaurant supply

you'll have better performing knives than 95% of muh freehanding autists who like to talk big but cook with a mutilated scratched up mess made of the latest high speed powdered tool steel that can totally shave arm hair with until the burr falls off

>>8677059

what are dexters?

Thanks, guys, I appreciate the help!

>>8677075
Cheap work horse knives meant for Mexican line cooks

>>8677075
fibrox minus the retard tax

if you want something a little nicer get some misono 440 from ebay japan and a knockoff edgepto. they're a bit underrated because people think 440 = chinese crap but 440C is actually a really good steel, very well understood and has everything you want from a cooking knife. don't fall for the carbon meme unless you are freehanding and require that to make up for your lack of motor skills, and do not buy a kitchen knife made from steel designed for carpet knives, you're just throwing money down the toilet even though spergs act like food = carpets

My collection, i actually use the ikea one with the wooden handle the most because its very light and great for chopping leafy vegetables, for small soft stuff i prefer the ceramic

>>8677182
You sum kinda ninja or something?

>>8677251
some.. sometimes i pretend i am...

I use this one a lot, super cheap, plenty sharp for general kitchen use, and easy to maintain:
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/60289244/

I got a Global knife for christmas, it's my first proper knife so I'm pretty happy.

It's only a 13cm blade though so I'm planning on buying a bigger one. I'm a poor student though so it won't be for a while probably.

>>8677059
Look, I'm sorry you had a difficult time trying to learn to freehand sharpen, but it really isn't that difficult to learn.

It's also pretty easy to learn to quickly and reliably deburr a freehand sharpened knife, whereas using an electric pull through is pretty much certain to result in a malformed edge with a massive floppy burr and very bad edge retention.

>>8677607
Freehanding is easy as fuck to "learn", yes

The difference between being able to scrape out a more or less functional edge and actually meet the limits of any given knife, let alone these 8k chosera memestones people convince themselves they need, is like sewing a button back on your shirt and making a new shirt from scratch

You can lie to 4chan but don't lie to yourself. You're not very good at this and you're fully aware of it

>>8676835
knives are the worst meme on /ck/ these threads belong in /r9k/

>>8677773
I have a YouTube channel about freehand sharpening. You should try watching some of the videos. You will see that it actually really isn't that difficult to learn to freehand at a skill level that will allow someone to maintain their kitchen knives.

I usually suggest starting with a tutorial on burr based sharpening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWU_qTp3DLM

and a short tutorial on shearing off a burr using high-angle passes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmcQ-MqbBE

If you want to see how quickly a proficient freehand sharpener can get a knife from butter knife dull to doing crossgrain pushcuts on newsprints at 90 degrees to the page, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB-sm7M0d_I

If you have any more questions on learning to freehand, please feel free to ask.

Don't know if that counts as knife porn, but for a 15€ knife pic related is the best one I've used so far.
Perfectly balanced and really sharp after going at it with a grinding stone.

>>8677833
>those fat hands
>that nasal voice
you're that guy who had a mental breakdown and flooded a cooking knife thread with pictures of yourself stabbing phone books with your MRE SERE SEAL tactical assault tanto

that was hilarious

>>8677863
So you aren't interested in learning to freehand sharpen then? That's alright, the video links might be helpful to anyone who comes into this thread who actually is interested in learning to maintain their knives, rather than destroying them and getting a terrible edge with an electric pull-through.

>>8677896
I can freehand just fine, I don't need your videos

I'm helping noobs to not get tricked by freehand spergs into thinking it's either necessary or likely to give good results without extensive practice

>>8677915
You mean to say you are mindlessly shitposting and trying to convince people to waste money on edge destroying pull through sharpeners rather than trying to help them learn a skillset you claim to posses.

Freehand sharpening isn't that difficult to learn if it is learned the right way. The real problem is that online discussions about sharpening are filled with people who advocate very poor sharpening methodologies, or worse, who actively mislead people because it makes them feel special.

>>8677915
>anti-sperg sperging

what is worse ?

>>8677947
mindless shitposting is having a tantrum when something doesn't go your way and flooding a thread with pictures of your fat hands stabbing phone books, anon

chefs choice is quite a bit better than the average pull thru device and cooks illustrated rated it very highly

it's not something I'd buy for myself but 98% of home cooks would be far better served with a CC than with bench stones. you obviously have lots of phone books attacking you IRL and I am sure you need daily reprofiliing on your Battle Ready CPM M1911 Crucible Assault Tanto but most people are just chopping onions and shit, so they only need to sharpen every once in a while

>>8677851
>>8677182
OK, I'll post my knives

>>8678001
That steel japanese styled handle really sticks out
Mind me asking what the brand is? Or was the handle a custom installation?

>>8678096
Sure. I got it years ago from this place:
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HybridWaBochoSeries.html#HybridWaBocho

It's an aluminum handled stainless yanagi, which is weird as fuck but pretty fun. I used it a lot for slicing meat and fish before I got the Tojiro sujihiki next to it. I prefer western handles and symmetrical grinds, but this was fun to learn on. It was hard getting a decent stainless yanagi without a shit handle that's under 100, and call me a pleb, but I just don't like carbon steel knives.

>>8677980
I understand you are desperate to divert from the deliberately poor advice you tried to give people up thread, but pretending like sharpening advice from cook's illustrated should be taken seriously is a bit too ridiculous to be taken seriously.

Pull through sharpeners are universally terrible and totally destroy the edges they are used on. There is absolutely no reason to advocate them when it really isn't that hard to learn how to freehand sharpen kitchen knives. It just takes watching some good tutorials and doing a little practicing on a cheap knife with a cheap oilstone.

For me, I prefer to try and help people learn rather than coming into every knife thread on /ck/ to shitpost up a storm and try to bait everyone.

>>8678254
please don't listen to this guy

he wants you to believe that removing a few microns from an edge with a low speed diamond wheel will destroy a knife and that a home cook who sharpens once a month at best will develop the skills to surpass a machine by freehanding once every 30 days. as a fairly skilled freehander with 11 years experience I can assure you this is pure fantasy

if you want proof that fathands mcgee up there doesn't know what he's doing, take a look at his videos where he demonstrates his "skill" by cutting scraps of paper with his freshly mangled edges, which anyone can accomplish with the back of a coffee mug on the worst dime store knife

the real test is how the knife is cutting after chopping a 50 pound bag of onions, something he has never done because his knife play is based on shredding paper and stabbing books

don't fall for it, freehanding is a fun hobby but if all you care about is results, and you don't want a sharpening hobby, a machine is the best choice. not just any machine, there are some bad ones, but a chefs choice is easy and well regarded (one of the most experienced sharpeners on a major cooking forum bought his daughter one). an edgepro is also a good option if you want to make a hobby-lite of sharpening

>>8678331
>edgepro
This is what I am thinking of doing, I currently have my knives professionally sharpened every ~6 months.
But at some point I might look at the edgepro as an alternative, as in about 2-3 years it'd pay for itself.

>>8678373
they're good machines, I would suggest the atoma custom plates because they never dish or change shape

the 1k atoma is as fine as you will need, you can use progressively lighter strokes to refine the edge and if sperg (not really necessary) finish on an old belt rubbed with jeweler rouge

it's not completely mindless so if assembly and angle setting is more than you will realistically keep careful track of, a chefs choice is not a bad alternative but the ep will give a much nicer result if you are at all picky (and willing to put at least a minimum of effort in)

an idahone would also not be a bad idea for touch ups

>>8678331
Why are you lying to people? Like, what do you get out of deliberately misleading others?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/872626-Chef-s-Choice-Model-312-Electric-Knife-Sharpener

"This picture might help you decide. It is one of a series I did of identical knives sharpened on different machines. This one is of a knife after being sharpened on the Chef's Choice:"

That is pic related. That is what this person is advocating you do to your kitchen knives instead of learning to freehand.

>the real test is how the knife is cutting after chopping a 50 pound bag of onions

How about after whittling pine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDB0q1QffOc

Or whittling bamboo chopsticks in a deliberately abusive manner?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FhWZsO3ef4

Those two videos just serve to show that you are a knowing and deliberate liar. You know full well that the clean,burr free apexes demonstrated with those sharpness tests on newsprint will stand up to a lot more than some onions. Why are you trying to mislead people reading this thread?

Freehanding is not hard. Being able to do it does not make you special. Literally anyone willing to take the time can learn how to do it. Stop lying to people for sport.

>>8678450

It really doesn't matter what the blade looks like under a microscope. it matters how the blade cuts.

the chef's choice will produce a blade that will easily get through thousands of pounds of food much faster than any free hand and at less risk to ruining the shape of the blade.

knife autists are the #2 reason that /ck sucks ass... just behind steak autists.

>>8678450
what a shock, a diamond wheel gives a different looking edge than a waterstone

yeah, as I said before, an edgepro is better if you want to put in some extra work. but enough with your stabby fantasy "tests", this is as cringy as the cutco sales presentation where they saw through a shoe

also bladeforums is worse than facebook in terms of prissy drama and butthurt, no surprise you'd be a regular there

>>8676588
So OP you want some knife porn or not? Yours clearly isn't

What's the Victorinox that everyone always says is the best value?

>>8678815
Fibrox is the meme knife, don't fall for it, do this >>8677059
>>8677099

>>8678484
>It really doesn't matter what the blade looks like under a microscope. it matters how the blade cuts.

And how do you expect that mess of an edge will last in use? Especially with the high risk of it having been heat damaged?

>the chef's choice will produce a blade that will easily get through thousands of pounds of food much faster than any free hand and at less risk to ruining the shape of the blade.

If you want your knives to end up looking like pic related, sure.

>>8678858
How do you have so much energy to be this wrong all the time? Just thinking about it makes me feel exhausted.

>>8678507
If by different looking you mean mangled and very likely heat damaged, then yes.

On that note, here is a discussion with a PhD metallurgist who showed that any amount of power sharpening without active liquid cooling was very likely to heat damage an apex:

http://www.hypefreeblades.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=391&start=0

Why go through all of that or spend hundreds of dollars on an Edge Pro when learning to freehand is not super difficult or expensive?

Hell, if you really don't want to learn to freehand you would be much better off sending your knives to a pro to be hand sharpened and then keeping them touched up between uses using a balsa wood strop with a fine diamond paste applied to it. In home use a knife can be kept extremely sharp for months between sharpenings using a pasted strop.

Anything would be better than you advocating people waste money on electric sharpeners that will then ruin their knives while giving awful edge retention. And the worst part is that you obviously know better and are just shitposting and baiting for kicks.

>>8678912
>hype free blades
As seen on TV, right?

Also I like how you're arguing against spending a couple hundred bucks on an edgepro while at the same time advocating sending money off to have a knife "professionally sharpened"

You realize any reputable sharpener who freehands on bench stones is charging like $30 a knife, right? You'd rather have people waste all that money and, presumably, buy a spare knife to cook with while the knife is out at the sharpener's (oh I forgot, you don't cook so being without a knife won't change your cooking situation) because you are this afraid of progress?

Machines are not the enemy, anon. Stop trying to trick innocent people into wasting time on your hobby.

>>8678949
I arguing against the edge pro because it's a waste of money. With the right approach to freehanding, precise angle control isn't that important, which makes it much less daunting for a beginner to learn. The EP is solving the wrong problem (angle control) instead of the right problem (wrong approach).

Why would my knives be at a sharpeners? I obviously sharpen my own knives (on video no less) so I wouldn't send my own out. The idea is from sharpening a friend's knives and leaving him with a strop to keep them touched up. It's been working very well for him. Far better than the knife destroying nonsense you are tying to troll people into.

Nice attempt to ignore the science that shows that any power sharpening without active liquid cooling has an extremely high risk of de-tempering the apex and ruining your edge retention though.

It's really sad that there are so many people in online knife discussions who get their jollies by shitposting though. It really serves to discourage people from learning to take care of their knives properly.

>>8679013
>Nice attempt to ignore the science
Oh boy here we go, "I said 'science' so I win", typical bladeforum garbage

There is nothing "power sharpening" about an edgepro, and whatever minor detempering happens on a chef's choice is inconsequential compared to your amateurish "apex" achieved through freehanding on stones which is, sorry bub, mostly burr, and therefore no better and likely worse than any minor detempering going on with a slow moving diamond wheel

Keep stabbing those chopsticks :)

just go ceramic

>>8677851

That knife is shit

>heel is a huge chunk of metal

Useless

>>8679083

actually ... is ceramic good at all?

I see sperg.

Recently my chef gave me his his old beat up shun 10" Damascus chef knife with rust and all. It was so blunt I ended mashing watermelon instead of cutting it into slices. Got it sharpened and my god now I understand why people spend money on knives.

Also picked up a sabiter (I think sabiter lion?) petty knife today. I absolutely destroyed prep. Tasks that took 30min on my old no brand 10" took 15mins. Feels absolutely good mang to have the proper tool for the job.

What should I get next as an aspiring knife nerd who work professionally in a kitchen? I've got a basic apprentice kit. Served me well for a couple of years but now I want to incrementally replace them.

>>8677833
you own more than one fedora.

>>8678858
Lets assume that a $20 dexter will get heat damaged and within 2 years of monthly sharpening, it will be ground beyond recognition. Why wouldn't the casual cook just spend another $20 on a new knife? Hell, why wouldn't they just spend another $100 on a new german knife? $100 every couple years isn't a big deal, especially if you take into account the convenience of it.

If I was the average home cook, and I only saved 5 hours of time between learning how to freehand, figuring out what the fuck to purchase, what the difference between an arkansas stone or japanese whetstone is, and taking the time to set up and take down my sharpening set up in those two years, I'd go for the shitty electric sharpener. It wouldn't be worth my time to think about it if my only goal is to rough chop 1/2 an onion and butterfly a chicken breast 5 times a week.
I think you've lost sight of why most people sharpen their knives, (or send their knives out to be sharpened), which is simply to cook. Anything that takes helps achieve that goal and takes away unnecessary distractions should be welcomed. The "shitty," "ruined" edge produced by the electric sharpener will still cut an onion or carrot well enough that the final dish would be indistinguishable. I bet you throw fucking tantrums when you watch gordon ramsey absolutely destroy his ingredients in his multiple restaurants and TV shows by even attempting to cut them with his shitty wusthof knife "sharpened" on a steel.

>>8676588
I just got the same one OP. How are you taking care of it?

>>8679039
I don't know why you would try to knowingly and blatantly try to deceive people.

The ability to pushcut newsprint across the grain at 90 degrees itself is empirical proof of a clean burr free apex. An apex with any microscopic burr remaining will catch and tear the newsprint rather than pushcutting it crossgrain cleanly. It is also hardly as if I don't have an endless supply of USB microscope image at ~250x magnification showing quite clearly the absence of any microscopic burr on my sharpened edges. Pic related.

Since you did not bother to read the link I posted referring to metallurgical research conducted into the effects of grinding steel without lubricants, I will summarize it to say that when surface temperature sensors are embedded in steel and that steel is hand ground on diamond abrasive plates and dry sandpaper, surface temperatures in excess of 2000C were briefly recorded. This is more than enough to de-temper the first few microns of steel thickness,which in the entire thickness of a knife apex.

The effects are, of course, worsened by any sort of power sharpening (such as a diamond electric pull through sharpener). The major effect of such de-tempering is to soften the apex. Since the primary mode of wear for kitchen knives is blunting by apex chipping and/or rolling from repeated cutting board contacts, any softening of the apex will be catastrophic to edge retention.

You would be far better off buying a new, cheap, thin kitchen knife and stropping it on a balsa wood block with 6 micron diamond paste on it and just replacing it when the strop no longer brings it back to an acceptable level of sharpness than you would by actively damaging the edge with an electric pull through sharpener.

The Edge Pro, of course, doesn't have those issues, but it is a totally unnecessary expense since angle control is not the most important factor in learning to sharpen properly

>>8680243

In that case the home cook would be even better off buying a $20 Dexter and stropping it on a balsa wood block with 6 micron diamond paste applied to it until that doesn't bring back the sharpness anymore and then buying a new Dexter.

At least that way you'd get a much stronger apex that would be trivial to keep touched up between uses and which will not accumulate metal fatigue like you would get from steeling, or de-tempering you would get from an electric pull-through, both of which will be catastrophic to edge retention in a kitchen knife.

>>8680444
>restaurant and butcher shops are wrong because my autism
saying "catastrophic" doesn't make you right

>>8680556
Actually, that's exactly why you see butchers steeling their knives between every single use in a butcher shop, literally dozens of times a day. It's because the more you steel a knife edge, the worse the edge retention gets, therefore the more frequently you need to steel, and so on.

The reason that this occurs is that steeling bends the apex back and forth with enormous pressure (since pressure is force x area, and the contact area against a steel is tiny), and the repeated bending back and forth fatigues the metal at the apex through plastic deformation.

A great home analogy to see the effect in action is to take a wire coat hanger and bend a section back and forth repeatedly. You'll find it eventually fatigues and snaps.

Since kitchen knives primarily blunt from cutting board contacts causing the apex to microscopically chip or roll, the metal fatigue induced by repeated steeling seriously impairs edge retention by making the apex directly more susceptible to both.

Stropping on a pasted leather or balsa wood strop avoids these issues because it is actually abrading the apex rather than burnishing it, and because a flexible stropping surface avoids causing excessive plastic deformation of the apex.

As a practical example: I have a gyuto in Aogami Super that can still pushcut newsprint across the grain at 90 degrees after having been kept touched up on a balsa wood strop for 3+ months since the last time it was fully sharpened. The edge retention hasn't been degraded in any meaningful way compared to being freshly sharpened.

Since it is cheaper to make such a strop than buy a steel, I don't see why you would advocate the inferior option?

>>8680597
>tl;dr
I never said a word about buying a steel. unless you think an idahone is the same thing

>>8680603
A ceramic honing rod would have most of the same issues, in particular the tiny contact area creating enormous pressure at the apex and causing the apex to deform, though at least the ceramic rods sold by idahone appear to have an abrasive which will help lessen the effect.

What I would say if you really want to use one rather than a strop is to use the lightest possible touch. Like, barely touching. Literally a few grams of force at absolute maximum when using it to try and minimize plastic deformation of the apex.

>>8680603
>unless you think an idahone is the same thing

Functionally, they are. It's an abrasive rod that's harder than the blade in question.

I have no idea why this myth persists, but many people seem to think that a "steel" isn't abrasive. They are. They have teeth on them just like a file. If you look at old carving sets for sale it's very common that the blade will actually have a concave profile due to repeated use of the steel having abraded the metal from the edge, like pic related.

>>8680647

Here's another example of the abrasive action of a "steel"

>>8680647
you keep arguing points put out by no one but yourself. who said a ceramic rod was not abrasive? the point was that you brought up rods in a discussion of electric sharpeners. you are now bringing up a debate about abrasives that exists only in your head. for your next trick you'll post a youtube link where you spin a knife for 20 minutes while mumbling about full tangs

chefs choice is a good purchase for the average home cook, to return to the issue at hand

>>8680655
>you keep arguing
That was my first post in the thread.

>who said a ceramic rod was not abrasive?
Post >>8680603 seems to suggest that.

>>chefs choice is a good purchase for the average home cook,
I'm not disputing that at all. I'm just curious why >>8680603 seems to think that an Idahone is somehow fundamentally different from a steel. I'm also wondering why people are blabbing about plastic deformation when abrasive action is far more significant.

>>8680597
What do you recommend for a strop? I've heard people say cardboard from a cereal box and other things, but what do you think the best is?

Could I just buy a cheap leather belt or is that treated and not as effective?

I just learned the effect of stropping when I tried it on my shitty Buck 110 knockoff that I have carried for the last 10 years. I sharpen it frequently but am never really happy with the edge, but considering the mystery blade material I never thought much of it. I was at a blade store and mentioned it to the guy and he stropped it, and the thing was suddenly like a razor.

I didn't want to buy one of their expensive stropping straps though, seemed overkill and more for the style.

>>8680655
He's providing some interesting info. I'd rather hear from people who know a bit about knives than those who argue essentially from emotion.

>>8680661
it depends what you mean by "fundamentally different" and "a steel"

most people understand "a steel" to mean a grooved butcher steel, which effectively is used to create micro-serrations, which consist of weak, fatigued bits of metal that quickly collapse under use

an idahone performs as a round medium-high grit ceramic stone, the purpose being to shave off a microscopic amount of metal same as a flat stone. the difference being that no setup time is required

obviously both can be used to "realign" a rolled edge but to suggest they have the same purpose in real life use is wrong

>>8680665
knowing "a bit" about knives is the problem here

it's funny you should be worried about arguments from emotion when the autist screeching about how machines are a scam to ruin your knives permanently is doing exactly that

it's worth remembering that this is a cooking board and doing hand to hand. combat with a piece of paper is of little relevance compared to chopping vegetables

>>8680655

>>8680243
>I bet you throw fucking tantrums when you watch gordon ramsey absolutely destroy his ingredients in his multiple restaurants and TV shows by even attempting to cut them with his shitty wusthof knife "sharpened" on a steel.

That is who brought up steels first in this thread. I just took the opportunity to point out that honing rods aren't a very good idea, etither.

>chefs choice is a good purchase for the average home cook, to return to the issue at hand

No, it is not. The average home cook certainly doesn't have the experience required to use an extremely light touch and make quick passes to try and salvage a minimally perceptible result from an electric sharpener. They are at a very high risk of totally mangling the edges on their knives due to their inexperience.

Even then, the edges produced by such are a sharpener are going to be inferior to what a home user would have gotten by just stropping a Dexter on a pasted strop, an approach much less detrimental to edge retention and which requires a negligible amount of user skill. Even better, they could buy two $20 Dexters and send one out to be hand sharpened by a pro every 3-6 months and never have a dull knife in their kitchen again.

Of course, they could also buy a Norton India coarse/fine oilstone, some light mineral oil, and actually learn to sharpen themselves. As I've said repeatedly, it isn't that difficult to learn if someone learns the right approach. If anything, a chef's knife is probably the single easiest type of knife to learn how to sharpen.

>>8680694
>it's worth remembering that this is a cooking board and doing hand to hand. combat with a piece of paper is of little relevance compared to chopping vegetables
clearly testing a blade against paper is a method to judge sharpness

you seem quite upset

>>8680703
>They are at a very high risk of totally mangling the edges on their knives due to their inexperience

Alright, im a random anon who hasn't read anything past the first ~10 posts in this thread.

Are you ACTUALLY so fucking retarded to think that an electric knife sharpener is EASIER to fuck up a knife than sharpening by hand?

For the average person this is so fucking far from the truth I am literally laughing at you. Is hand sharpening better? Yeah when done properly of course it is, but the average person would literally have to spend dozens of hours just to get competent, let alone "good" with sharpening by hand.

Decent electric sharpeners however are dead fucking simple, and pretty difficult to destroy a blade with unless you're taking some $400 single bevel japanese blade and trying to sharpen it in there or something equally retarded.

>>8680661
Plastic deformation is always an issue with honing rods of any kind because of the microscopic contact area compared to other types of abrasives. Since pressure is equal to force times area, its incredibly easy for a rod to end up exerting hundreds of PSI on a knife apex, which is thin enough to both be bent back and forth by that force, and be essentially squished into an apex (i.e. by burnishing rather than abrasion).

It's a reasonably well studied phenomenon that steeling of any kind dramatically reduces edge retention for these reasons. These issues can fairly easily be avoided by using a strop pasted with a diamond abrasive compound instead.

>mfw people are defending electric knife sharpeners
Well, this is the McChicken board after all.

>>8680716
>Are you ACTUALLY so fucking retarded to think that an electric knife sharpener is EASIER to fuck up a knife than sharpening by hand?

It is. The worse a person is likely do while learning to hand sharpen (if they learn from a good resource) is fail to get the edge sharper from the dull starting state. They are unlikely to make the knife more dull than it was when they started sharpening, unless they do something self evidently silly.

The electric sharpener is the hands of a novice is likely to consume far more steel than necessary and to leave a ragged, heat damaged edge that will have terrible edge retention in use. This is worse off than they were to start.

People think learning to hand sharpen is hard because most of the guides to learn about it online are TERRIBLE. Hand sharpening is not hard if you learn the right way, it just takes a little time and practice to learn, just like any useful life skill.

>>8680727
I mean, not everyone has $150+ knives.

For a $150+ knife, I'd say get it professionally sharpened over buying an electric sharpener, or spend the time to learn hand sharpening if you have several knives of that price range. But for the average home cook who barely has $200 in knives TOTAL? Fuck off, a decent electric sharpener is more than good enough.


Get your pretentious autism and go elsewhere. Not everyone is spending $1000+ on 3 or 4 blades.

>>8680662
By far the best choice is balsa wood blocks. Balsa wood is compressible enough to work as a strop material without having nearly as severe a risk of rounding over the apex if used incorrectly compared to a leather or fabric strop.

Get some balsa wood, then head to Lee Valley Tools and get a tube of DMT DiaPaste in 6 micron and apply several dots to the stop surface and use a plastic card to spread it around until you have a nice thin even coat.

>>8680736
Ah yes, the populist argument. Of course that was coming next.

>>8680736
This thread is called /knifeporn/ and is posted in a board about cooking you fucking moron.

>>8680736
You'd be better off with a $20 Dexter, a coarse/fine oilstone, and a pasted strop than the overwhelming majority of people using butter knife dull knives or using knives with damaged edges from power sharpening or steeling.

This isn't a matter of money, its a matter of taking a little time to learn a useful life skill instead of focusing on all the wrong aspects of things first, like buying expensive knives when you can't maintain them properly, or throwing away money on an electric sharpener and then having to replace your knives yearly because the sharpener ate them.

I don't understand why you are so angry at the idea of people learning to hand sharpen? Why does that make you feel so threatened that you haunt /ck/ knife threads like a ghost, trying to derail, bait and shitpost them to death for YEARS at a time? That doesn't seem very healthy.

>>8680759
>I don't understand why you are so angry at the idea of people learning to hand sharpen? Why does that make you feel so threatened that you haunt /ck/ knife threads like a ghost, trying to derail, bait and shitpost them to death for YEARS at a time? That doesn't seem very healthy.
Next he'll tell us he's too busy and has too much of a life to sharpen his knives by hand lol

>>8680759
>throwing away money on an electric sharpener and then having to replace your knives yearly because the sharpener ate them.

LOL, guess I should tell my grandparents to throw away all of their wusthofs that have been electrically sharpened for about 15 years now.

They cut just fine by the way, I dont use them often, but they're not terrible.

>>8680780
If this had actually been the case, you would have mentioned it as a real world example before now. Please don't make things up to try and support your shitposting.

>>8680780
The desperation is real in this post.

>>8680802
>>8680797

>>8680797
>you would have mentioned it as a real world example before now
What do you mean BEFORE now? That was my 5th post in this thread. And my 3rd post replying to you.

This is me
>>8676867
>>8676932
>>8680716
>>8680736
>>8680780

>>8680810
You must think everyone is as fucking dumb as you are. There is no need to samefag when anyone with even half a brain would be able to figure out how shitty your fucking "argument" was. Literally cancer you are.

>>8677773
No one needs Chosera™, but if you have the money and do all of your own sharpening, they're nice. They cut down on stropping time in addition to time on the stone itself, and they're more feel responsive than a lot of other high grit stones. They're not magic, though, I'll give you that.
Advocating for an electric sharpener over free handing because of people messing up their edges is asinine. All of the worst condition knives I see are because of people using electric sharpeners. Not only scratched to hell, but with unnecessary and uneven removal of material leading to wavy blades and bolster nightmare (pic related) way sooner than would occur otherwise.

OP here, I was actually hoping for some great pictures of great knives...

>>8680923
Here is one I took yesterday when I got my new cutting board.

Not an AMAZING knife, but a decent old Wusthof classic.

>>8680923
Same ol' stuff here. I should take another picture though. The clad line on the Hiromoto is much closer to the edge now. I might have another year before I feel forced to fork over the money to have it thinned. I really don't want to do that myself.

Well if people are done shitposting:

I have the Wusthof santoku like in OP's pic. It's my first upgrade from a victorinox fibrox meme knife with a shitty pull-through sharpener and generic steel.

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/wusthof-classic-ikon-creme/hollow-edge-santoku-knife-p114723?gclid=Cj0KEQjwhpnGBRDKpY-My9rdutABEiQAWNcslKkzvmm8pxu1_ysrkdUjZRJFrPYqyb27rsyXgHlBsJ0aAnMX8P8HAQ


I already know not to dishwash, and I have magnetic strip for holding my knives. I just need to know how to care about it. Should I get this 1000/6000 whetstone?

https://www.amazon.com/King-Sided-Sharpening-Stone-Base/dp/B001DT1X9O/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1489425937&sr=8-3&keywords=whetstone

And would my regular steel work or do I need to get a special one?

>>8681181
Yeah that combo would work. I'd go a little lower in grit, say 800/2000. Regular steel works. It might be a while before you get results better than the pull thru. There's a bit of a learning curve.

>>8680943
Sounds pretty fat. It'll feel sweet when you do get it thinned. Fat knives suck, even if they are sharp.
What's the middle knife?

>>8681181
Most steels should work fine. I'm sure there are some dollar store steels made who knows how that will gunk up and are way too soft and whatnot, but decent steels can be found very inexpensively.
That's a good stone. Grinding your first edge on it or having to repair nicks will take a while on it, but for regular sharpening it'll work well. The lowest grit stone I use is a 700 JIS grit, and I do complete regrinds fairly often. Sometimes I'm tempted to get a rougher stone, but it's not been enough of a temptation for me to buy another after using up my last one years ago.

>>8681224
A lot of people say it is too thick. I love it, though. Maybe it's a difference in sharpening preferences, I don't know. Several of my knives could be thinned at this point, though, so I'll probably send a few out at once.
Middle is a Fujiwara Teruyasu with a nashiji finish. The finish is a bit of a meme, but I like the look.

>>8681246
Don't get me wrong, there are many foods you'll cut where the thickness makes no difference. But for some it's night and day, e.g. onions.

Screw the meme, I reckon the Fujiwara looks awesome. Doesn't the machi poss you off though? I didnt notice at first but it kinda looks like they botched it...

Can somebody explain why most Japanese kitchen knives, whether it's a gyuutou or a slicer or a petty, have a downswept tip, like a sheepsfoot? Shit drives me fucking crazy when I'm trying to do precision work with it. For example, pic related is a petty. Why does it have a sheepsfoot tip and not a standard point???

>>8681359
Many people prefer it that way, including myself. It means the knife has less belly curve and more of a flatter area along the cutting edge. It's a preference thing.

>>8681378
I can sort of get why less belly might be desirable for a knife that touches the cutting board - less up and down arm movement of the handle while slicing. But for a petty that's meant for precision work?

>>8681359
It's what's preferred by most people. And you can certainly find japanese blades with different profiles, just shop around.

>>8681386
But why is it preferred?

>>8681359
Aesthetics?

>>8681403
It can't just be aesthetics... so much of the rest of the design is utility based.

>>8681404
It would depend on the job at hand desu. But for most jobs, even precision work off the board, id prefer a flat cutting edge over a sweeping one.

>>8681414
But, I mean, you can have the same edge profile by just changing the shape of the tip above the edge.

>>8681424
True, however you run a much higher risk of breaking the top. Also, there's nothing stopping you from removing metal from your own knife as you showed, but there's plenty wrong with trying to add more on.

>>8681437
Yeah, I mean I could attack that part of the blade with a file and then smooth it out with maybe a polishing stone, but I just wish I didn't have to. As for breaking the tip, it's a petty. It's not a knife that would ever be rock chopped.

>>8681424
shop around

>>8681359
Bunka

>>8681454
I mean by dropping it or some shit. In most kitchens that tip would be broken in like a week or two unless you baby it and forbid others from touching it.

Get someone with a belt sander to do it. It would only take 2 minutes. Don't use files, they won't work (hardended steel on hardend steel). A coarse stone would work if you had an hour to burn and a lot of patience. Polish with sandpaper and youre done. You can fix a broken tip in exactly the same way.

Don't be afraid to modify your knives. You said it yourself that it's an easy fix - and you're not wrong.

>>8681496

I have an extra-coarse DMT diamond plate that I bought for flattening my stones. It works great for reshaping; I've customized several knives with it and it works quite quickly as well.

>>8681496
Logistically easy. Not easy to put into action.

>belt sander
Yeah, great way to fuck up your knife.

>don't use files
Files would be the proper tool for the job. You want to be able to precisely but relatively quickly remove metal.

>diamond plate
You can really shorten the lifespan of many of these things by sharpening knives on them the wrong way. The diamond grit (basically a kind of sand) gets sliced off the matrix that holds it together.

>coarse stone
Still pretty slow and less precise than files, and you're going to dish a water stone pretty badly if you do it the wrong way.

>>8681594
Clearly you've never used a belt sander before. Explain how a belt sander, one of the knifemakers most used tools, is a great way to duck up a knife?

And I'd pay to see you try to remove that much hardened steel with a hardened steel file. Although id get bored of watching you get nowhere.

Btw you're talking about this like it's precision work. Removing metal from the spine ranks easier than sharpening a knife.

>>8681647
I don't know, it just sounds like the most horrible idea I've heard all day.

>>8681660
My bad I ment grinder. Even so it would still be a piece of piss to do with a sander.

>>8681686
That sounds much worse.

>>8681697
Whatever. Belt grinder, but you already knew that.

>>8681647
I'm not the guy you're replying to, but:

A belt sander, when used by an unskilled person, generates a massive amount of heat. I don't know if you've ever used one yourself but when you hold a piece of steel against the belt too hard (or with a worn-out belt) you can watch the steel change color and go red-hot before your eyes. When the steel gets that hot it can ruin the temper and result in a soft knife.

That said, a skilled user can indeed remove metal from a knife without causing that amount of overheating. The proper belt speed, a good sharp belt, the correct amount of pressure, and stopping often to cool the blade in a container of water can do a great job without harming the blade at all.

A for professional knifemakers:
1) they have a lot more expertise and experience than the average anon
2) often use specialized belt sanders (or stone grinders) that are "wet"--in other words, the belt or stone is cooled with water to prevent overheating.
3) Belt grinding is usually done to roughly shape a blade BEFORE it is tempered, making any kind of overheating irrelevant.

Also, you seemed to have posted a pic of a woodworker's belt sander. that's nothing like what would be used for knives.

>>8681716
>Also, you seemed to have posted a pic of a woodworker's belt sander. that's nothing like what would be used for knives.
He knows that, we know that, everyone knows this. But because the original poster didn't specify properly to this autists specifications, he's decided to be intellectually dishonest and play dumb and be obtuse because it will get a rise from people.

>>8681734
>/ck/
>an intellectual imageboard for intellectuals like myself

>>8681751
huh? It's a trash board with fags and man children. You wont see me say otherwise

>>8681716
Let's be honest, it's not too hard to stop a piece of metal that you're holding from reaching 150 degrees C. But you're right to mention it. Dunking it in water solves the problem.

>>8676588
My sister had Wustoff chefs knife and I have a shun chefs knife. I love my shun, it fits my hand now like a glove after half decade and many countless onions it only needs sharpening maybe once every couple months and as long as a true it with a steel it's good to go. The Wustoff is too heavy for my taste but it holds an edge far better and is much less prone to chipping. Drop the shun and you may drastically damage it with a chip. Easy enough to repair if it's minor but it still sucks .

Any $150+ knife from a good maker is gonna be quality. Illll

>>8681758
>Let's be honest, it's not too hard to stop a piece of metal that you're holding from reaching 150 degrees C

I agree. But I also remember my first time using a belt sander and watching the metal glow red because I didn't know what I was doing.

That's why I discussed it from both sides. A noob could easily damage their knife if they weren't careful. Someone with experience would have no problem doing it safely and correctly.

>>8681270
Oh I know that people claim it's too thick to be a good performer. I don't see it, though. Lasers are one thing, but I like my main utility knife to have some heft, and maybe it's the way I sharpen or something else, but the knife performs beautifully for me even when prepping for an 80 gallon stock batch or hundreds of pounds of pico de gallo.
The handle could fit better on the Fujiwara, but no, it doesn't bother me much. I baby it, mainly slicing large meats that I want a clean look on, paper thin vegetable slices, that sort of stuff, and for home use. It does get a little pinchy if I use it for extended periods.

>>8676588
I use one of Shun's series I love the light weight feel the blades have with their razor sharp edge the basically guide themselves through what ever I am cutting.

>>8676991
so I work as a chef and I can say your go to would be to have an 8 a 10 and a bread knife you can preform basically every task you could need with those. However they different blades exist for a reason in that they can do their specific task amazingly well.

I posted this here before. Shun Nakiri knife. Had some extra money laying around so I got it. Wonderful for fruits, veggies and boneless meat but not worth the price tag. If I could redo it Id get the chefs knife.

>>8682629
Nakiri/Usuba are great for certain tasks, but yes, for an all around'er a Santoku/Gyuto or maybe a Kiritsuke would've been better.


Still a nice knife though.

>>8682658

Its wonderful for what I use it for. I'm not that upset with the purchase, I have an 8 inch Wusthof chef's knife that I use for 95% of all my prep work. However, this knife is certainly better for dicing up large amounts of vegetables at once.

>>8680916
>Advocating for an electric sharpener over free handing because of people messing up their edges is asinine.

It has nothing to do with "messing up your edge". That's the autismo who's worried about that. I'm advocating a chef's choice (for others) because of a much worse problem: "people not sharpening their knives at all". Yes, I believe not even trying is worse than "damaging" a knife. What good is a fancy knife if it's duller than a butter knife? Fuck that shit. Usually the lack of sharpening happens because of a combination of

1. It's annoying
2. I forgot and I need to cook something now
3. I don't have time
4. The result isn't what I hoped for

Inevitably (4) is because they are sharpening once a month at best. You can't develop the skills to sharpen well if you're sharpening once a month. You have to make it a hobby. Do you want a sharpening hobby? I have one. I wouldn't say it's something most people would be, or should be interested in. And yet that doesn't stop knife autists from shoving their opinions down everyone else's throat.

I know many people who own stones, by "own" I mean there is a set (usually) lying around the house somewhere, sometimes even in the kitchen. I know nobody who owns stones (besides me, and a casual acquaintance who is a professional cook) who actually has sharp knives. All of the people who fell for the stone meme did it because they are perfectionists, and I mean that in the derogatory way, as in "if it can't be done perfectly I won't do it at all". They buy it with these grand plans, they maybe use them twice, and then they never get touched again.

Meanwhile the second sharpest home kitchen knives I've used are at the house of one of my aunts, who has a one of the devil sharpeners (not even a chef's choice, some random cuisinart thing she got at bed bath and beyond). She uses it on her vintage sabatiers. I don't say a word about it because her knives cut well, and she cooks well.

>>8682775
Fair enough points on dull knives worse than messed up blades, but if the second sharpest knife you've ever held is one that is maintained on an electric sharpener, you've not held many knives or you don't know many cooks who take their job seriously.
Even the worst professional sharpeners will do a better job than an electric sharpener most of the time (unless he doesn't like you or something).
I don't knock people for being happy with what they use, but I most certainly won't recommend certain things because they aren't good solutions IMO.
It doesn't have to be a hobby to learn. It takes some practice, but it's not a life long commitment. If you're going to maintain all your blades on your own and you cook a lot, then yeah, sharpening is a regular task.
Using an electric sharpener on a fancy knife is worse than letting it go too long before sending it out to someone IMO. It's like drinking a coke and whiskey with 50 year old Highland Park. Sure, there's no rule against it, it gets the job done, and it's your money and your stuff, but what a waste.
>has nothing to do with messing up your blade
>>8677059
>freehanding autists who like to talk big but cook with a mutilated scratched up mess made of the latest high speed powdered tool steel

In conclusion: fuck off with your bullshit.

>>8676588
I've got a $40 Farberware knife set and it does me just fine you pompous asshole.

>>8682880
>but if the second sharpest knife you've ever held is one that is maintained on an electric sharpener
Nice selective reading, I appreciate your attempt to once again twist my words into something that I didn't say, to make an argument that I didn't make. Intentionally misinterpreting someone in order to provoke an enraged response is the engine that keeps this site chugging.
>Even the worst professional sharpeners will do a better job than an electric sharpener most of the time (unless he doesn't like you or something).
Not really, no. They pretty much do the same thing. A lot of those "pros" just use something equivalent to a chef's choice, but bigger and with more slots. Decent pros who use water cooled abrasives are in the minority and someone who has the motivation to ask these kinds of questions probably isn't the kind of person I'd be recommending a chef's choice to in the first place
>Using an electric sharpener on a fancy knife is worse than letting it go too long before sending it out to someone IMO.
Except that isn't the choice. The choice is "don't sharpen it at all" or "sharpen it with something". If someone has the energy to contact Dave Martell or some such person, negotiate the transaction, pack up the knife, ship it off, wait, and all that, then this isn't the person I'm suggesting buy a chef's choice. Few people if any are going to bother with that nonsense. They'll just keep putting it off indefinitely.
>It's like drinking a coke and whiskey with 50 year old Highland Park
Funny you should say that because I am definitely in favor of mixing single malt in cocktails, not so much coca cola as I don't like it, but Bowmore 15 Darkest is an excellent cocktail ingredient. Not a waste at all, because I wouldn't have drank it neat, but hey, it's against "the rules", just like electric sharpeners. I hope this triggers you.
>In conclusion: fuck off with your bullshit.
No U.

>>8682775
The problem is that most people's experience with "stones" are things like hard Arkansas oil stones or something else that's very slow cutting and/or very messy. If they own pocket knives, they may only have pocket-sized oil stones and have no idea about technique to use them. If you go to /out/ and ask around, you can see that they don't know much else. I don't know anyone else who has a set of water stones, although I'm trying to advocate them among the different people I know who might be willing to put in the time.

At least an electric sharpener actually does sharpen your knives, though, as opposed to a steel, which can only ever realign an edge. I'll never look down on someone who uses an electric sharpener on their knives, but I'd never subject my own knives to one.

I think if people were properly introduced to a good set of water stones and provided proper guidance on how to use them, then they would keep their knives much sharper. Granted, there is a learning curve to doing it right and doing it well, but a beginner could learn just enough to half-ass it with minimal instruction, and I think the experience would make them more willing to practice more in the future. It's just more fun to use water stones than oil stones, IMO. They're cleaner, faster cutting, and give better feedback. If people knew that, then they wouldn't look at sharpening like a terrible chore.

>>8683058
>The problem is that most people's experience with "stones" are things like hard Arkansas oil stones or something else that's very slow cutting and/or very messy. If they own pocket knives, they may only have pocket-sized oil stones and have no idea about technique to use them. If you go to /out/ and ask around, you can see that they don't know much else. I don't know anyone else who has a set of water stones, although I'm trying to advocate them among the different people I know who might be willing to put in the time.
You might be onto something there, the acquaintance I referred to who has stones and does have sharp knives (the one who is a cook) is using japanese waterstones, everyeone else (all of the examples of people who got memed and don't maintain their shit) has arkansas stones or norton oilstones or something similar. Although in one case it's DMT plates and he *still* doesn't do anything with them. You'd think that would be even less reason not to, since they're faster cutting and they don't dish, but no. So I think hardware may help to an extent but just having to interact with this inert object that doesn't have a slot or anything, is another major impediment. Whereas a chef's choice, it's there on the counter, it's always plugged in being a vampire load on the electrical grid, you just jam the knife in the slot and after some shrieking it's ready to go.

>>8682775

>>8682880
here
I just now realized you must have meant people who talk big about free-handing but don't do any of it themselves, and end up using electric sharpeners instead. I haven't seen much of that here over the years. If anything, it's people who collect them like trophies. That I don't find so bad.

>>8682963
I did genuinely miss the word home in
"Meanwhile the second sharpest home kitchen knives".
Most of the pros around here use wheels, or at least know what they're doing when they use their calibrated electric sharpeners. If they do use electric oscillating sharpener set ups with a lot of slots and they are charging a lot, don't use them. If they're doing it for cheap, I say go for it. They'll probably use the style of machine better than any home user would.
Some cocktails are fine, coke with a 50 year old peaty malt would annihilate the subtleties that scotch and you know it. And I didn't say it's against the rules. I said there are no rules, and that it's wasteful to do it, but someone advocating for shitty sharpeners or claiming that most people here do that on their knives while talking a big game wouldn't understand that, I guess.

>>8682963
I did genuinely miss the word home in
"Meanwhile the second sharpest home kitchen knives".
Most of the pros around here use wheels, or at least know what they're doing when they use their calibrated electric sharpeners. If they do use electric oscillating sharpener set ups with a lot of slots and they are charging a lot, don't use them. If they're doing it for cheap, I say go for it. They'll probably use the style of machine better than any home user would.
Some cocktails are fine, can accentuate aspects of the spirit. Coke with a 50 year old single malt would annihilate the subtleties that scotch and you know it. I didn't say it's against the rules, I said there are no rules, just that it's wasteful to do it in that manner, but someone advocating for shitty sharpeners or claiming that most people here do that on their knives while talking a big game wouldn't understand that, I guess.

>>8683197
No, I meant they were messing up the edges on their bench stones, not an electro sharpener. Please note, I don't subscribe to the school of thought that dishes out shitty advice like "until you're good at it only buy a 16k stone because you'll ruin your knife" etc etc. Edges are meant to be removed, added, and removed, there is no "damaging your edge" just because you changed the profile intentionally (or unintentionally) short of doing something really insane. But whether you're using a 5k or a 500 stone a shitty job is a shitty job, aka a mangled edge when you give up and start bashing the food with it, aka you just defeated your own argument for the superiority of bench stones whether it is fixable in principle or not (and it is, but isn't it funny how the same spergs who say "you HALVE TO YOUSE A BENCH STONE" are the same ones who say "don't use anything more arato than a nakato-to-shi to sharpen your bou-chou or the kamisama will be very baka at you kouhai!" What are they so afraid of anyway? If you can't be trusted with a fine stone you can't be trusted with a coarse stone, period, end of story. So either do the job, or use an electro sharpener. Seems to me some people understand on a certain level why this is a good idea, but can't admit it to themselves.

People need to stop being so superstitious about edges and just focus on results. I'm all for bench stones if it really leads to a better result, which in the right hands (and only in the right hands), it will, but all this sperging over PROPER bench stones and how electro sharpeners will offend the weeb gods is autistic nonsense.

>>8680759
It's not a matter of money. It's a matter of time, and giving a shit. Most people want to make food that they enjoy eating, while caring as little as they possibly can about their equipment. A few extra dollars to save a few minutes and to not have to think any harder than it takes to click "confirm purchase" on Amazon is worth it in many people's situations. This is the cast iron/Teflon/stainless pan argument all over again.

>>8680734
>People think learning to hand sharpen is hard because most of the guides to learn about it online are TERRIBLE.

No, people think it's hard because it is. People like you run around spreading misinformation about how it's the end of civilization if someone uses a pull through and doesn't put a mirror polish hamaguri-ba on their rachel ray santoku using (insert my pet brand of memestones here), and how this is totally trivial and only takes 30 seconds and, unfortunately, some people fall for it.

Your defense usually amounts to "oh but you must be stupid, anyone who disagrees with me must be stupid and lazy oh and also poor, and they have maybe looked at videos but not MY SPECIAL videos" which is a really effective way of shutting down anyone who tries to question you. It's like a religion. You guilt shame people who dare contradict you and it usually works because people on these kinds of websites are generally very sympathetic to making things unnecessarily complicated. But I'm more sympathetic to people who have dull knives and I'm calling you out on your meming and lies.

People should freehand if they want, but if they don't have any interest, stop spreading your bullshit about "sharpeners that violate my religion are worse than if they didn't sharpen at all".

If you were in Japan would you get any knives while you were there?

My main knife.

An important thing to remember is that many brands expect you to sharpen their knives. Others put a high quality edge in the box, and may offer free sharpening services.

The direct comparison with Tojiro DP is Shun, which puts a better edge out of the box and has a free lifetime sharpening service. Tojiro DPs are $50-60 ($60 for pic related), whereas comparable Shuns are $80-150 ($150 for the direct comparison to pic related). Both have VG-10 steel cutting edges.

>>8685001
And my paring knife.

This sharpening kit with ceramic stones makes hand sharpening a lot easier. It's simple to focus on keeping the knife vertically oriented; the stand defines the angle relative to vertical. It's pretty hard to do the same on a bench stone, where your hand defines the angle relative to horizontal. It's just better feedback compared to marking the edge with ink and checking your work. That really helped me out with hand sharpening, even though I had already been using bench stones for years and had ground out some nasty damage to my knives after dropping them onto concrete.
It's also fixed to 15 or 20 degree angles, so it's not suitable if you need to maintain a super thin bevel.

>>8685029
picture related

>>8685001
I literally just bought that knife a few days ago. I haven't used it yet though. I want to make sure I have proper tools for maintenance first.

>>8685029
>It's also fixed to 15 or 20 degree angles, so it's not suitable if you need to maintain a super thin bevel.
Should be fine for a double bevel japanese blade, but single bevel not so much.

>>8685053
I find it fascinating how people always go "oh but that tool is no good for my custom honyaki yanagi"

Really dude? Are there a lot of single bevel owners who need to be told that a spyderco might not be the best option for keeping their shinogi line crisp?

>>8685070
There are plenty of idiots who buy really nice knives and have zero idea how to properly take care of them, you see it all the time on here.

>>8685077
I didn't ask about "really nice knives" in the most general, vague sense that you mean. I mean, as I said, how many people buy a yanagi or a kiritsuke or another *single bevel knife* as you specifically mentioned, without understanding that a spyderco tool isn't going to be useful?

This is not a problem of any real life significance.

>>8685086
Usuba, Deba, Yanagiba, Kiritsuke, etc, etc. Not to mention, Gyuto's, Santokus, and others CAN come in a single bevel, they're just rarely imported to the US. That doesn't mean a weeb on 4chan wouldn't see it and buy it anyway without knowing anything about how to properly take care of it.

When making a bland statement such as
>It's also fixed to 15 or 20 degree angles, so it's not suitable if you need to maintain a super thin bevel.

Just not true considering almost all japanese 50/50 bevel blades only need a ~16 degree angle, so the 15 degree setting would most likely be just fine.

It's good to clarify, especially considering 4chan is MOSTLY people lurking and not posting, you have no idea who is reading what is being typed here, it's best to provide as much clarity as possible.

>>8685053
Some people like to go 12 degrees or narrower, at least on the primary bevel. Personally I've never felt it necessary to slice a tomato using only the weight of the knife.

>>8685099
Sure, and anyone that particular would probably be sharpening by hand without a guide or going to a professional sharpener and specifying what they want exactly.

>>8685098
>>8685029 here, I am not >>8685070. I also don't think I implied anything about the angle of most Japanese knives, I just knew that some people had xtreem bevels.

>>8685098
> it's best to provide as much clarity as possible.
You're not hurting anyone by typing all that out, I'm just saying I think it's funny. It's a risk that seems like a huge issue to knife spergs but isn't really a problem at all. I have literally never seen someone come on here, or any knife board, and go "oh man I'm having a hard time doing proper uraoshi sharpening with this spyderco kit, can anyone help me"

>>8685112
That's because they come on here with a half ruined knife, or are too embarrassed to even post about it.

>>8685115
Nope. Never happened. You might be confusing the "I chipped my Shun" with a problem with single bevel knives.

>>8685122
>lurker for over 8-9 years now
>have seen it happen at least half a dozen times

alright bud, have a good one.

>>8685126
Poster since December 2006 here. You're fantasizing. Sorry for calling you out :^(

>>8685129
You're retarded if you think you've seen every thread. Hell the mods here delete whole threads all the time if they devolve into too much autism.

>>8685130
So what are you saying, it might have happened once in a thread over 10 years? We get two or three shit flinging knife threads a week with hundreds of posts. So maybe out of a quarter million knife autism posts, we got one person saying they damaged their yanagi? That seems like a widespread issue to you? Or are you saying something else?

If it's so common, dig something up from one of the many sites scraping and archiving these boards. You should be able to find one example. Just one. That's all I ask.

>>8685135
>wasting my day chasing your autistic fantasy.
Lol thanks, but i'm good.

You're the one throwing a fit. Nothing I said is wrong, it's information for anyone who doesn't know, if you already know, fantastic, you're an amazing person, well done! But not everyone does, nor should you expect them to.

>well it's not useful for most people
Who fucking cares? You're 180 posts into a fucking knife thread on a basket weaving forum, no one gives a fuck about most of this ALREADY, any extra information is either already known, or a lurker is reading something and potentially learning something new, In either case it HURTS no one, and potentially helps someone.

>>8685148
The only one fantasizing here is you. I made an observation about your humorous preoccupation with soccer moms who accidentally flew to Japan and bought a custom yanagi from Keijiro Doi's ghost and then ruined them spyderco gadgets and you're now 15 posts into damage control mode trying to rationalize your beliefs.

I agree it hurts no one, and I never said not to do it. I just think it's funny.

>>8685170
> I just think it's funny
Bullshit, you butt blasted sperg.
You've been dominated and defeated.

>>8685170
>15 posts into damage control mode
kek, whatever you want to pretend happened

>>8685019
A little after buying

>>8685272
And about 2.5 years later, after some significant damage

>>8685278
I lost my Delica last month so I've gone back to my battered old Buck.

>>8684978
It isn't hard. I guarantee you I could teach literally anyone the basics of freehanding a chef's knife in one day in person.

People believe its hard because the overwhelming majority of the sharpening advice and guides online are deeply misleading and made by people who don't understand how to teach what they know.

My videos (and a select few others) break down the process into a simple series of sequential steps that help to avoid the first and second problems that novice sharpeners always run into (the first is not fully apexing the edge, and the second--which cannot occur until the first is overcome--is not being able to remove a burr).

Rather than encouraging people to learn a skill which literally anyone is capable of learning, you instead condescendingly assume they should just content themselves with the terrible edges an electric pull-through produces because they could never aspire to learning to freehand.

That's nonsense. Literally anyone with two hands and a little patience (and the capacity to listen to instruction) can learn to freehand. It's just a matter of using a coarse enough stone to produce results in a timely fashion for a novice, sticking to one side until a full length burr is formed, switching to the other side until the burr is flipped along the whole length of the edge, and then shearing off the burr using high-angle passes. That's it. Add in a pasted strop afterwards and angle control effectively becomes a total non-issue as well.

Ultimately, the idea that on 4chan of all places we should cater to the absolute lowest common denominator rather than encouraging people to git gud is just sad. Do you go around /ck/ encouraging people to only eat fast food and frozen diners? To only drink instant coffee? And cheap bagged tea? Or do you confine yourself to shitting up every knife thread on /ck/ for years at a time to try and derail them all?

>>8685019
Guess I'm not the only person to use my EDC knives as paring knives. Mind you, this one basically IS a paring knife with a kydex in-pocket sheath.

>>8685282

>>8685285
>It isn't hard
>I guarantee it only takes a day of hands-on training
In other words, it's fucking hard.
>People believe its hard because IT'S HARD
Fixed that for you bro.
> you instead condescendingly assume
You call it condescending, I call it realistic. Anyone can learn to write a shitty computer program too, I can teach them that in a few hours of hands on practice. Or they can, you know. Use something that actually works, written by someone who knows what they're doing.
>Ultimately, the idea that on 4chan of all places we should cater to the absolute lowest common denominator
Look buddy, I'd love it if everyone went online and bought a gyuto from Mr. Tanaka and a full set of stones and strops and shit, but that's (a) never going to happen, and (b) even if it did, 99% of those people would leave their weeb sword in the sink to convert to rust. You're being unrealistic and spergy. Chef's choice is good.
>Do you go around /ck/ encouraging people to only eat fast food and frozen diners?
No, because more people are interested in cooking than they are in taking pictures of their apex using an SEM and arguing passionately about carbides. Stop shoving your hobby down everyone's throat, you think it's helpful but this is literally the "abstinence education" of knife maintenance. Results matter more than religion to me.

>>8685341
>A skill taking a few hours to learn the basics of means its so monumentally difficult that no one should be encouraged to even try. Instead they should be actively discouraged as much as humanly possible from even trying to learn.

That is a pretty depressing way to look at things. I guess people should give up on learning any skills at all because IT'S HARD BRO.

>>8676588
Muh knife
pic is over a year old, handle has gotten significantly darker.

>>8685378
> Instead they should be actively discouraged as much as humanly possible from making the wrong choice based on an autistic person's personal priorities
Fixed that for you
>I guess people should give up on learning any skills at all because IT'S HARD BRO.
No, but they should be given the correct information. Saying "it's easy" while sperg-shaming them out of any sort of compromise is misleading. Saying "it is easy if you put hours and hours of time with hands-on supervision by an experienced teacher" is more accurate (because most people would translate this as "it's hard").

If you actually were in the habit of giving an accurate description of the time and energy commitments I wouldn't be arguing with you, but you're not. You're more interested in shaming people out of doing things in the haram fashion, because you think that everyone should have the exact same priorities as you and if they don't that makes them lazy and stupid.

Freehand sharpening is a niche hobby and I appreciate it when interested people express a desire to learn. You are not addressing these people. You are actively seeking out anyone who looks for general knife advice and discouraging them from making individual choices because to you, there is only one right way to do things. This is why knife autists have a reputation as being insufferable twats.

>>8685019
lol I actually use my Opinel no 9 fairly often as a paring knife.

Is IKEA 365+ good?

This sharpening autistic faggotry is getting old as fuck.


I just use sandpaper on a flat surface, then a nice stropping. Quick, easy, can get a high polish if I want to, and gives a nice sharp edge.

>>8685424
I'm not the guy you're arguing with, but since when is being able to sharpen a knife with a stone some kind of niche hobby? Mind you, I'm talking about putting a usable edge on a dull knife, not sperging out with expensive waterstones and chromium oxide laden strops.

In my opinion being able to sharpen a dull knife with a stone is a fundamental skill that any adult ought to know. It's no different than knowing how to do laundry, iron a shirt, tie a tie, how to sew on a missing button, address and mail an envelope, change a tire, fry an egg, grill a steak, etc. It's basic and fundamental.

And again, I'm talking about putting a serviceable edge on a knife with a basic stone, not going full-on sperg or gearfag here.

>>8685452
>It's basic and fundamental.
I'd wager ~75% of american adults couldn't put a proper edge on a blade, or even something close to a good apex.

>>8685452
> since when is being able to sharpen a knife with a stone some kind of niche hobby
Since the mid 20th century probably? I was born in the 1970s and it's never been a thing most people do
>Mind you, I'm talking about putting a usable edge on a dull knife, not sperging out with expensive waterstones and chromium oxide laden strops.
If you want a usable edge just get a chef's choice.
>In my opinion being able to sharpen a dull knife with a stone is a fundamental skill that any adult ought to know. It's no different than knowing how to do laundry
Funny you should say that when you probably use a machine to do your laundry. Why don't you hand wash your clothes? Are you some kind of lazy fuck? I'm not even lying when I say this is the protocol I use:
http://mail.customshirt1.com/ShirtLaundering.html
And yet most people I tell that to think I'm insane. Because I am. Normal people do a rough sort by lights/darks, toss it in the machine, throw some detergent in the detergent slot, and press "go".

Your tying a tie example is a bad one because it is strictly about fashion. A necktie serves no functional purpose other than fashion. And I say this as someone who wears ties for work. Fashion isn't bad, but it is not essential for human survival. So is this about fashion? Seems that way to me. I love fashion, but I'm not going to run up to some stranger asking what's a good parka and start raving about four in hands give the right sprezzatura in today's casually elegant sartorial zeitgeist.

>It's basic and fundamental.
So is shooting all your own meat, and yet... we live in modern times. Crazy. It's ok to go to the grocery store and buy pre-cut meat from the butcher. The gods will not be mad.

>And again, I'm talking about putting a serviceable edge on a knife with a basic stone, not going full-on sperg or gearfag here.
Again, if you just want a serviceable edge, machines exist. You don't need to buy a chef's choice, I'm just using it as an example.

>>8685464

I would agree. But they ought to know given how many dull knives I've come across when cooking for friends and extended family.

And for that matter, most people I know can't do many of the other things I listed either.

I think part of the problem is that while it's honestly very easy to do a basic sharpening job with a stone, people read about all the crazy sharpening hobbyists online and get overwhelmed thinking they need a half-dozen expensive Japanese stones, all sorts of fancy jigs, various magic potions to strop with, etc, etc. I'm not knocking people who do that kind of stuff as a hobby, but it's clearly much more than is actually needed for a typical home cook.

>>8685019
>>8685272
>>8685278
>>8685297
>>8685302
back to /k/

>>8685471
>I was born in the 1970s and it's never been a thing most people do
But like I mentioned in >>8685472, it's something that people need to be doing given how many dull knives are floating around.

>>Funny you should say that when you probably use a machine to do your laundry.
That's what I meant, yes. Believe it or not there are a lot of people who don't know how to operate a washing machine, or a dishwasher for that matter. But anyway, yes, I use a machine because it's convenient. But I know how to wash clothes by hand, and I've done it many times.

>>Your tying a tie example is a bad one because it is strictly about fashion.
You can call it "fashion" if you want, but I'm pretty sure that for most people there will come a time or two where they need to wear a suit and tie out of obligation rather than their personal fashion choice. Perhaps they are going out to a fancy dinner. A friend or family wedding. A funeral. A job interview. Court appearance, etc. Regardless of your personal fashion preferences there are times when society requires you to wear a tie.

>>So is shooting all your own meat,
Good point, I totally forgot that one.

>>Again, if you just want a serviceable edge, machines exist.
Sure. But what good is that going to do you if your machine breaks or if you don't have access to one? If I'm visiting friends for a BBQ and find that all their knives are dull and they don't own a machine I'd be fucked. But if I know how to sharpen using a stone I can grab the bottom of a ceramic mug or plate and get that knife into action. That seems like a very useful skill to me.

>>8685506
>it's something that people need to be doing given how many dull knives are floating around.
I'm not sure why you think I'm saying people shouldn't sharpen their knives. All I'm saying is that there is more than one way to do it and machines are better than nothing (given that nothing is the default choice and machines are easier than freehanding)
>there are a lot of people who don't know how to operate a washing machine, or a dishwasher for that matter
Those people are not wearing unlaundered clothes. They are wearing clothes that someone else laundered for them.
>most people there will come a time or two where they need to wear a suit and tie out of obligation rather than their personal fashion choice
A fancy dinner, funeral, wedding, etc, are all subject to fashion codes. I wear a suit for work because of fashion codes related to occupation. It is my choice, I can also show up with no suit and while I wouldn't get fired, it wouldn't reflect well on me. Likewise you can go to a funeral in sweat pants, and it won't reflect well on you. Fashion is about what others think of you. Much like freehanding to show off what a self-reliant old timey frontier individualist you are.
>But what good is that going to do you if your machine breaks or if you don't have access to one?
What good is a stone going to do you if you don't have access to one?
>But if I know how to sharpen using a stone I can grab the bottom of a ceramic mug or plate and get that knife into action
What if there's no mug?

It seems you're grasping at straws here. Buy Chef's Choice™ now with more Trivor™ System

>>8685520
>>All I'm saying is that there is more than one way to do it
Clearly. Nobody is disagreeing with that. But wouldn't it be better to know how to do it using basic things rather than being dependant on a machine? It's no different than learning to do arithmetic in school despite the fact that calculators and computers exist. Or learning to write with a pen or pencil even though computers and typewriters exist.

>What if there's no mug?
There's always something that will work. Hell, I learned to sharpen knives using a literal rock back when I was in boy scouts. My grandma used to use the bricks on the side of her patio to sharpen her knives.

>>8685489
t. Beta Leftist

>>8685529
>But wouldn't it be better to know how to do it using basic things rather than being dependant on a machine? It's no different than learning to do arithmetic in school despite the fact that calculators and computers exist. Or learning to write with a pen or pencil even though computers and typewriters exist.

Say I've got an expense report to file. I could

1. Use Excel. It does all the work for me, it takes me 3 minutes, I get to file an error-free report and move on with my day.
2. Do it using a paper and pencil. It takes me 20 minutes I could have spent doing the work I'm actually paid for, and if I make a mistake, I get to walk my chicken scratch pencil markings down to the accounting department to get yelled at for filing a fraudulent reimbursement.

Some old-timey individualist types might fly off the handle at being "dependent on a machine". My entire life is ruled by machines, I've accepted it and moved on with my life.

>There's always something that will work. Hell, I learned to sharpen knives using a literal rock back when I was in boy scouts. My grandma used to use the bricks on the side of her patio to sharpen her knives.

It's a fun fantasy, like the flight simulator addicts who fantasize about the pilot passing out and saving the day. But if the 1 in 1000000 chance of being at a random BBQ with only butter knives and some river rocks is the sacrifice that has to be made for people having sharp working edges in their kitchens 365 days a year, it's a sacrifice I think should be made.

>>8677059
>>8677773
>>8677915
>>8677980
>>8678331
>>8678484
>>8678507
>>8678884
>>8678949
>>8679039
>>8680694
>>8682775
>>8682963
>>8683500
>>8684177
>>8685341
>>8685424
>>8685471
>>8685506
>>8685520
This, at minimum, how many posts that one guy has spent furiously discouraging others from even trying to learn how to hand sharpen. Make of that what you will.

>>8685546
Only about half of those are mine. Sorry for being stuck at home in a blizzard.

>>8685545

I think you should use Excel to do the work for you. But I also think that you ought to be able to do it by hand just in case you didn't have access to Excel.

>>ut if the 1 in 1000000 chance of being at a random BBQ
It's happened to me three times that I can recall.

>>Sacrifce that should be made
There is no sacrifice. It's a simple procedure to learn and it might come in handy some day. What's the problem with learning how to do it? What exactly is the downside to learning how to do a basic sharpening job manually?

>>8685558
>But I also think that you ought to be able to do it by hand just in case you didn't have access to Excel.
I can do a lot of things with a pencil. I can even code a basic computer program on a piece of paper if I want to, but if Excel magically disappears and my entire industry is forced to revert to pencil and paper, my willingness to do arithmetic by hand is the least of my worries.
>What's the problem with learning how to do it?
No problem at all. Once again, you seem to be confusing this argument for something that it isn't.
>What exactly is the downside to learning how to do a basic sharpening job manually?
The downside of gimping yourself by rejecting machines completely is that you simply won't bother at all. Like the abstinence-only sex education theory. It's all well and good to imagine people as being perfect little obedient robots who will do everything the PROPER way, but realistically if you run around telling everyone that machines are the devil and autismo stones and meme strops are the only correct way, what you get in return is dull knives in the vast majority of households. People shouldn't be discouraged from sharpening their knives. Telling them freehanding is the only correct way = discouraging them from sharpening their knives. I know it's not nice to think of, but it's true.

>>8685577
Who said anything about excel and computers magically disappearing forever? I was referring to one-shot instances. I've had to do work by hand that I would normally use a computer for when there was a temporary power failure, when I was stuck on the train due to an accident further down the line, or when I had to get something to my boss ASAP while I was out traveling to visit a client.

>>I can do a lot of things with a pencil. I can even code a basic computer program on a piece of paper if I want to
Isn't that a lot like knowing how to sharpen a knife manually if need be?

>>No problem at all.
Then why are you replying? I'm not advocating that everyone needs to sharpen their knives every day using a stone. I'm advocating that people should know how to do it just in case.

>>The downside of gimping yourself by rejecting machines completely

Who said anything about rejecting machines? I'm advocating a basic skill that might serve you well if/when you don't have access to a machine, or if you prefer not to use one for whatever reason.

I never stated that stones were the only way or the "correct" way. I simply said that people ought to know how to use them. And I specifically said a basic sharpening job, not going full on autismo/gearfag.

>>8685587
>Isn't that a lot like knowing how to sharpen a knife manually if need be?
Exactly. It's not a likely scenario and I don't run around with a notepad just because I might not have access to a keyboard.
>Then why are you replying?
Because you seem to be siding with the autismo position that having a machine is bad because it means you will be prevented from doing things by hand in extraordinary circumstances.
>Who said anything about rejecting machines
A lot of people in this thread.
>And I specifically said a basic sharpening job, not going full on autismo/gearfag.
A basic sharpening job by a relatively unskilled sharpener is no better than what you would get with a machine, takes longer, and is far less likely to happen until the knife is so ridiculously dull that the owner of that knife has been smashing food with it for months. If you're not going to go full autismo, don't bother at all. Just get a Chef's Choice™

>>8685608
Or you could get this >>8685031 which not only consistently produces great results with no prior experience, but segues naturally into freehand sharpening... because it is freehand sharpening.

>>8685628
I was actually suggesting an edge pro as a middle ground option, but a sharpmaker isn't a terrible option either. Still, both are harder than a Chef's Choice™ with Trivor™ technology. Just get a Chef's Choice™

>>8685646
Edge Pros are much more expensive, and the cheap knockoffs are pretty shit.

>>8685608
>Because you seem to be siding with the autismo position that having a machine is bad because it means you will be prevented from doing things by hand in extraordinary circumstances.

I never said anything of the sort.

The extent of my point is that people ought to learn how to do a basic sharpening job just in case they need to.

If someone prefers to use a machine that's fine, they can go right ahead. But even if that's their choice for normal maintenance it still makes sense to know how to do it the basic way.

>>A basic sharpening job by a relatively unskilled sharpener is no better than what you would get with a machine

I never said it was. My point is that it's a handy skill to have when you need to sharpen a knife and you don't have a machine handy. And given that it's so easy to learn there's no good excuse for not knowing.

>>If you're not going to go full autismo, don't bother at all. Just get a Chef's Choice™

So you're a troll™. got it™.

>>8685672
He's been haunting these threads like an atavistic ghost for at least a year.

>>8685666
The basic edgepro setup is about the same price as a Chef's Choice™ with Trivor™

I've always been in favor of spending more on sharpening equipment than on the knife itself

>>8685672
Yes, everyone who has a different opinion than you is a troll. Are you a mod by any chance? This is /ck/ mod logic.

>>8685682

It wasn't the "different opinion" that makes me think he's a troll.

It's the constant use of ™. That is clearly some kind of silly trollish humor.

>>8685698
Sorry for trying to have a little fun while looking out for people who might get tricked by freehand memesters. Feel free to report my posts so the hall monitor can take care of my wrong opinions.

>>8685705

why would you ever discourage someone learning a new skill

homeboy clearly said basic sharpening and not going nuts with fancy shit

do you tell people its dumb to learn maths because they can just use a calculator or app?

>>8685749
See >>8685577

Fuck, anons. Just post some knives. I tire quickly of this sharpening discussion, there's not even some good or funny images to go with this shitflinging.

>>8685646
What, I thought this shitty electric thing would have been $30-50, not $150 and up. The Spyderco, or really any system which uses an angle guide and your hand, utterly annihilates it especially for the price.

>>8685947

The spyderco is actually a great sharpener. I keep one in my hunting bag and another in my tackle box in case I need to touch up a knife in the field. They even do a pretty good job on serrated knives. And if you fish the little groove in the stones can be used to touch up your fishhooks. They pack up in a small size, they're easy to use even if you're wearing gloves.

How do you feel about sharing knifes? Would you share your chef's knife or is it's the holy tool in your arsenal that no one is supposed to touch besides you?

>>8685998'
I let complete rookies use my $300 knives because I don't mind fixing them up. The $500 ones I only let them use under supervision or after training them a little in proper technique.

>>8676588
i got a swiss sheeps foot knife. i use it for more than what its intended. stays sharp. i like it.

>>8686681
Got pics? You post reads like a santoku in my minds eye

I recently got this.
I really like it.

>>8686705
Quite nice anon. If I recall correctly, the choil and spine of those knives are quite rough, you can look into smoothing rounding them out if you need.

>>8686735
Thanks anon. Will look into that at some point perhaps.

>>8686705
I'm looking at one of these Tojiro damascus knives.

I can't decide between the 7" Santoku without hollow grind, or the 8.25" Chef's knife.

I can't afford both right now.

>>8685869
Neat. What brand are these?

>>8686956
Depending who made them and the type of steel, those could easily be $1,000+

At that point it's not about brand but about who was the smith.

>>8686991
Right, right. I'll rephrase the question to better reflect what it was I wanted to know so the poster in question won't misunderstand me.

"Those knives look very nice. Would you mind telling me who manufactured those knives so I might look at more of their work?"

>>8686705
Tojiros come out of the box with an OK edge, but they really benefit from an initial sharpening and they hold the edge for a really long time.

>>8686865
Get a 9-10" chef's knife or gyuto. 8" is fine and workable, but I always wished I had the extra length for slicing bigger foods without sawing and for working larger volumes of food at once.

>>8686703
sorry, i think i was ill informed. i think thats what its called, not sheepsfoot. anyway, i do love it. its the first good knife i actually bought and it really does make everything easier in the kitchen compared to some junky cheap stuff, and it wasnt that expensive either

When you sharpen a 50/50 bevel Japanese knife with kurouchi finish, are you supposed to treat it like "wide bevel" Japanese knives where you regularly start sharpening up at the shinogi line, put a micro bevel on the knife, and then work on rounding the big bevel so it's convex? Or do you just sharpen the micro bevel part until you need to take some shoulder off?

>>8687081
Sheepsfoot and santoku blade styles are very similar. The main difference being that the santoku edge is going to be slightly rounded while the sheepsfoot will ideally have a flat edge. People still talk about santoku knives having a sheepsfoot tip, though.

>>8687048
Close but the autismos will not acknowledge your post unless you phrase it right:

"Anno bōchō look very kawaii desu. Would anata-san mind telling watakushi which tekkō folded those bōchō over 9000 times so watakushi might hang my eyes upon more of their tekkō?"

Buy Chef's Choice™

>>8686956
I got em from this thread.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/18857-Some-of-the-very-special-things-in-our-store

pretty cool pattern welds, huh?

>>8687099
Thanks a lot man, I found the maker's site in the post you linked.

>>8687099
>>8687118
Got a link?

>>8687122
https://www.toshoknifearts.com/

Are Mac knives good?

>>8687124
I thought you meant you found the site of the smith who actually made it.

They're just a knife shop in toronto that import blades from japan, and from what I can tell it was a custom order, so not something they even carry.

>>8687132
Depends on which ones. Some of them are very good. Some (like the Superior line, other than the SB-105) are pretty mediocre. They don't make anything super exciting so you don't hear as much about them as, say, Masamoto or various individual weeb smiths, but they're generally considered to be among the better of the larger brands.

>>8687132
Yes, but on kitchen knife forums, you often see people wanting to upgrade from them, so apparently they can be grown out of...

>>8687132

Get a professional series chef knife if you are thinking mac

>>8676963
You nay have a cutting board that is too small for the knife.

>>8676963
This: >>8687260

I have a 12"x18" cutting board and my longest knife (10") is easily wieldable, but it wouldn't make sense to have a knife that long if my cutting board were only 5"x8".

>>8687180
This MTH-80 has been on my wishlist for a long while as my first serious 8" chef knife, in accordance with the knife reviews and roundups I read. At around a $100-150 budget, is it (still) a good selection or has the market moved on like with what happened with Victorinox?
https://www.amazon.com/Mac-Knife-Professional-Hollow-8-Inch/dp/B000N5H2XU/

>>8687762
> Then one day I was cutting a head of cabbage and as I did i heard a "ting" type of sound and there was a gouge out of my knife. I live in Canada and I had a difficult time finding someone at Mac knives so I finally contacted Mac Knives in the states. He advised that because I broke the knife while cutting something hard the most he could do was not a replacement but 70 percent off a new one.

lol

I keep a cheap $10 thin broad knife and a sharpener.

As long as a knife cuts well, who cares what it is.

My knife cuts just about anything. Looks like that mac knife but it is some crap brand.

>>8687806
I'm hoping that's an outlier. I understand that there is always a trade-off to be made between sharpness and blade fragility.

http://www.knifeplanet.net/best-knife-chopping-vegetables/
The other thing is that I've read that the flat-cutting edge of santoku/nakiri knives make them better at vertical chopping vs. horizontal rocking motions of chef knives. This makes them superior for vegetables. True or overstated?

It's important since I'm vegan and 95% of my meals begin with a Mirepoix or Holy Trinity anyway. I looked and found that MAC does make a santoku edge-profile of the MTH-80 (MSK-65):
https://www.macknife.com/collections/professional-series/products/professional-series-6-1-2-santoku-with-dimples-msk-65
https://www.amazon.com/MAC-brand-Santoku-Knife-Bolster/dp/B0006NKY16

Would a square nakiri-style end up being the better tool vs. either of them? If so what models should I look at?

>>8688772
Santoku will be more efficient for chopping than a chef's knife. I think a nakiri is overspecializing even if you're vegan.

>>8688834
Alright. Thanks for the input.

>>8685558
Downside of having no Excel: you can't do important work that your job and others' jobs depend on.

Downside of not having a sharp knife: You have poorly cut food until you can Amazon prime a knife sharpener or find a ceramic knife. (I personally carry a pocket knife at all times and have resorted to using that at others'homes on many occasions)

I don't think you can compare these two scenarios. Also, you need to learn arthmatic because it helps you be a smarter person. Learning these things help your brain develop. While learning to sharpen a knife doesn't really make you a smarter person. It's just another skill that may or may not be convient. Also, you need to learn arthmatic because it's the basis for more complex branches of math like calculus. Don't tell me you're gonna say learning calculus is comparable to learning how to sharpen a knife.

>>8688772
I'm not a vegan, just a Meat Minimalist™ but 95% of my cutting is vegetables and I get by fine with a chef's knife and a petty knife. Granted I cook at home, I'm not prepping barrels of one vegetable type every morning, just cutting up a few random fist-sized objects every day, but the logic that "it's only vegetables so I should get something that resembles a nakiri" seems dubious to me. A pointy tip is useful for a lot of things and if you just want a shorter chef's knife you can get a 210mm or a 180mm instead of getting a santoku like a midwest housewife from 2003

>>8676990
This.

It's why we can't have nice things.

>>8680434
>~2.2mm of edge

Is this blown up from a phone camera?

Other knives with this rough, unfinished look?

Pic is Fujimoto nashiji btw

>>8689200
>Pic is Fujimoto nashiji btw
It's a Fujimoto. Nashiji is actually the finish on the blade.

So if you're looking for the hammered rustic look, you want a Nashiji finished blade. There are plenty out there from many smiths.

>>8689183
It was taken with a USB microscope.

You are all poor. This is the only correct answer for a real knife. Bob Kramer

I got a few 8' chef knives from Cutco when they were running a "special" to give as wedding gifts. Much better than what they were using in their kitchens so I figured more useful than not.

I know they're stamped and overpriced but whatever

I have been considering picking up a few victorinox knives for daily use. Are they good?

I have a set of Wurstof's but they sit in the cabinet for holiday use

>>8689354
>victorinox
They cost 5x what they're worth because some guy endorsed them on TV in 2003 and it's gone the way of Laphroaig 10
>I have a set of Wurstof's but they sit in the cabinet for holiday use
Lol

>>8691014
$32 for perfectly fine 8" knife is overpriced, but not that much.

I have a chef's knife, a paring knife, a petty knife, and I'm looking for a new toy. I was thinking a nakiri or Chinese knife. Or maybe a slicer. A santoku would be cool but I feel like it'd have too much overlap with what I already own.

Thoughts or suggestions?

>>8689354
>I got a few 8' chef knives

Why do so many people screw this up? Are you non-American or an immigrant to America? Single tick is for feet. Double tick, aka single quotation mark, is for inches.

>>8691695
me and my chef knife

>>8681647
I plan on using some files to mess with my cheap butcher knives. When I finally get around to it I'll post results whether calamity, frustration, success. It's a bit of an unfair context, but I figered I have a decent chance of success given the knifes are probably 56 HRC max.

>>8677182
>IKEA knife

Fuck off you pleb. I don't use anything that wasn't forged in the fires of Mount Doom and quenched by being plunged three times through the body of a Tibetan yeti.

>>8691014
Why on earth do you leave your wursties in a cabinet? They are quite possibly the best workhorses for a basic level cook.
>>8691623
The biggest question (unless you have too much money and are autistic), is what do you need a knife for? What functions would you like to perform (better) that you currently cannot. If you want to take apart bones, buy a cleaver. If your style of veg chop is so inclined, grab a chinese cleaver.

>>8678912

>Why go through all of that or spend hundreds of dollars on an Edge Pro when learning to freehand is not super difficult or expensive?

A Ruixin pro will be 25$.

>>8693307
>trying to talk reason to a MGTOW
he thinks he's getting back at roasties by making love to his edgelord battle ready pocket fedoras

>>8693307

Sure, though I believe they require a few modifications to work well. The more fundamental issue is that guided systems focus on precise angle control, but in reality precise angle control isn't the most important factor in sharpening. Ensuring an apex has been achieved all g the whole length of the edge and ensuring no burr remains at the end of sharpening are actually the more important than factors. If someone uses a pasted strop or microbevels on a stone when they are finished shaping the edge bevel, then angle precision becomes a non-issue.

Whether one uses a guided system or learns to freehand, they will still have to learn how to reliably be sure they have apexed the edge and how to eliminate the burr. Guided systems don't change that, and they are slower.

>>8693673
Strops don't need to be pasted, but it does speed up the polishing process.

>>8693673
>precise angle control isn't the most important factor in sharpening. Ensuring an apex has been achieved all g the whole length of the edge and ensuring no burr remains at the end of sharpening are actually the more important than factors

Lol? That's like saying "scales are fine for baking I guess, though I believe they require using the tare function in order to work well. The more fundamental issue with scales is that scales focus on the precise mass of each ingredient, but in reality the mass is not important, the important part is that you don't use too much or too little of one thing or another"

You get a consistent apex along the entire blade length by not fucking up the angles, it's like you have no idea how sharpening actually works

A strop isn't going to do shit for "finishing" if you rolled the edge off on some of your pull strokes or dug it into the stone on some of your push strokes, strops are the last step and if you're doing it right, are completely optional

>>8694895

Obviously if your angle control is so poor that you are gouging the stone it's going to be a problem.

However, plus or minus a few degrees isn't going to make a huge difference so long as each side is worked long enough to reach a full length burr from heel to tip.

My point regarding a pasted strop (or microbeveling on a stone) is that creating a microbevel at a slightly higher angle than was used to shape the edge bevel can eliminate any concerns about the apex being malformed due to not precisely controlling the angle.

This concept comes from a sharpening approach known as the three step method as shown here:

https://youtu.be/sXYI1yRBHiU

And here:

https://youtu.be/OPGGo3W15HQ

Basically, separating the shaping of the edge bevel from setting the apex with a microbevel puts much less emphasis on precise angle control than a traditional burr based approach.

For beginners totally new to freehanding, combining the use of a burr based approach on the coarsest stone with setting the apex with a microbevel as a separate final step is, in my eyes, the absolute easiest way for a total beginner to learn to freehand and achieve good results quickly. For more experienced sharpeners I would recommend using a three step approach as a whole as it is much faster.

>>8694692
I use pasted strops to create and maintain convex microbevels, instead of microbeveling on a stone. I've kept my gyuto touched up at a high enough level of sharpness to do cross-grain pushcuts on newsprint at 90 degrees after multiple months since the last time I fully sharpened it.

>>8695360
>Obviously if your angle control is so poor that you are gouging the stone it's going to be a problem.

You talk like this is a small issue. Stone gouging is mostly limited to very soft stones but the same angle problem that causes gouging on some stones is enough to cause a big problem with edge development even if the stone doesn't make it too obvious. Precisely controlling the angle is a requirement to have enough of an apex to need to think about microbevels. I think what you are calling "precise" must be assuming some machine-level of precision that reasonable people are not suggesting. The point of a machine like an EdgePro is not to achieve an inhuman level of precision, as if that is necessary. The point is NOT to achieve a rather human level of imprecision guaranteed to result from a person sitting down with a stone for the first time. Even the relatively low level (as you put it) of precision that an experienced sharpener can achieve is still quite a ways beyond the capabilities of a novice, and they're not going to achieve it for quite some time, and not without quite a bit of trial and error, microbevels or no microbevels.

Which is fine (the extended period of trial and error and shitty results), if they want to make a spergy personal home hobby out of it and be an absolutist stone nazi purist who refuses to let his bouchou ever be used on anything other than water-soaked toishi while wearing a full yukata and banzai headband. Hobbies are great.

But it's not necessary and most people are better off with Chef's Choice™ now with more Trivox™

>>8695468
On chef's knives it is a small issue. Put your thumb on the spine at the angle you want to hold, such that your thumb touches the spine and the stone at the same time. Wala. No risk of large enough angle deviations that would damage the apex.

Look, it's not that I think guided systems are bad, I'm just saying that they don't eliminate the need to actually learn the principles involved and, because they are much slower than benchstones, they can be counter-productive to getting novices to stick to sharpening one side of the edge with a coarse stone until they have a full length burr.

If someone really has no desire to learn the muscle memory to hold an angle to within a few degrees plus or minus, doesn't mind guided systems being significantly slower, is willing to spend the money, and understands that they still need to learn the principles I of sharpening, then they can be a reasonable choice. I'd certainly recommend a guided system over any sort of pull-through of electric pull-through sharpener.

Well if stone autist is finished I just bought pic related, should be here tomorrow

>>8695804
Nice meme knife

>>8695664
>I'm just saying that they don't eliminate the need to actually learn the principles involved

No one ever suggested that. I don't know why people ITT are so fixated on this idea that knife sharpening is an intellectual exercise on par with learning algebra. It's not, and spending a lot of time on this hobby doesn't make you some kind of genius. It just makes you a hobbyist. It's like the kids on /g/ who think that putting some cards into slots instead of just walking down to the Apple store and buying a pre-fab unit makes them super geniuses who "made a computer from scratch". A fun time sink, nothing more

>because they are much slower than benchstones

What a bizarre misconception. The speed is based on the knife steel, the abrasive, and the width of the contact point, none of which have anything to do with whether you're using a guided system or a bench stone. Different guided systems have different abrasives. With an edgepro you can get generic aluminum oxide stones, chosera, shapton glass, atoma diamond, DMT, and even naturally quarried Japanese waterstones. Common grits range from 120 to 16k. If it's cutting slow you picked the wrong grit. Also, since the stones are smaller, you can assemble a wider range of grits for cheaper than bench stones, and a wider range of grits lets you work faster since you are not forced to scrub away at your 270mm PS gyuto at a snail's pace with your 1.2k because some memester said coarse stones are too dangerous to be allowed for novices (don't even pretend you're not one of those memesters, I know you are)

Just which magical property of holding the knife angle manually do you think causes a benchstone to cut steel faster than a couple of steel rods holding a fixed angle?

>they can be counter-productive to getting novices

Right, a method that requires a full day of hands on training is totally attractive to novices but reading a page worth of simple instructions is "counter productive and slow"

Buy Chef's Choice™

>>8696875

Actually I just thought of a situation where bench stones would be faster than an edge pro: an usuba, since the edge is ruler-straight and therefore the width of the contact point is determined by the stone size.

So yes, I will concede if you are sharpening usubas, you need a bench stone. Then again if you already own an usuba you already know that because single bevel sharpening is not properly done on a guided system. And yet that accounts for approximately 0.00001% of use cases, so, not really relevant since the vast majority of cooking knives have some amount of curve.

>>8696875
My point was that guided systems overemphasize precise angle control, which beginners often assume is the most important factor in sharpening when it isn't. Angle control within +/- 5 degrees is good enough to not be a major issue. Grinding long enough to reach a full burr and successfully removing that burr are far more important. Again, this isn't saying that angle control is totally unimportant, just that guided systems are vastly overemphasizing it.

I happen to think that focussing too much on precise (as bin better than plus or minus a few degrees) angle control is a trap beginners often fall into, when often their issues are because they aren't fully apexing the knife due to using too fine a stone, randomly switching sides, and trying to move to finer stones before an apex has been reached. I'm not suggesting anywhere that sharpening is brain surgery, just pointing out that people need to focus on understanding the basic principles involved and this need will not be solved by buying an edge pro.

As for grinding speed, there are four factors going on.

The first is a simple matter of physics that benchstones are typically much larger than stones used on guided systems, so the edge passes over a larger area of abrasive per pass.

The second is that scrubbing passes can typically be made at a higher speed freehand than a guided system can.

The third is that full sized waterstones can be flattened prior to each use and can be used with the mud from flattening them left on the stone. Using waterstones this way greatly increases their cutting speed, and is usually not feasible to do with the small and inverted stones on something like an edge pro.

The fourth, which applies to very coarse stones (below 320 grit) is that you usually cannot use enough pressure on a guided system to even come close to maximizing their cutting speed.

>>8696911
>Again, this isn't saying that angle control is totally unimportant, just that guided systems are vastly overemphasizing it.

Guided systems aren't "emphasizing" anything, they are inanimate objects. I am emphasizing angle control because, objectively, it is important. I think you've been immersed in your hobby far too deep and you've only been interacting with spergs on bladeforums, causing you to lose the ability to look at this from an outsider's perspective because your subculture patrols its perimeters for anyone who might violate "the rules" and ostracizes violators.

Angle control seems like no big deal to you because you're at a point in the hobby where it's a given. You're assuming that the REAL challenge is figuring out the interesting questions like whether carbide boundaries or grain size are more important when it comes to subjective sharpening feedback. Take a step back, if you possibly can at this point, and understand that when a person says "wat knife iz gud" they are NOT asking you for an autistic dissertation on high speed tool steels. They just want to know if they should get wusthof or shun. If you jump down their throat and start raving about how guided rod systems are an anti-intellectual cancer that encourages kids to require warning labels on everything and back in my day we had to go uphill both ways in the snow, it is the same as saying "please don't sharpen your knives, it's for crazy hobbyists with nothing better to do"

>>8696875
>and a wider range of grits lets you work faster since you are not forced to scrub away at your 270mm PS gyuto at a snail's pace with your 1.2k because some memester said coarse stones are too dangerous to be allowed for novices (don't even pretend you're not one of those memesters, I know you are)

Is there any limit to your intellectual dishonesty? Why would you brazenly lie like that?

In the video tutorial I shared on a burr-based sharpening approach up-thread and in at least one post in this thread I explicitly recommended that beginners start with a cheap knife, a Norton India coarse/fine combination oilstone, and some light mineral oil. I clearly note in the video that one of the common mistakes beginners make and bad advice they get is to start on too fine a stone, and that a coarser stone is essential for a beginner to achieve results in a timely fashion.

Here, let me quote what I wrote and you obviously read earlier:

>>8680703
>Of course, they could also buy a Norton India coarse/fine oilstone, some light mineral oil

>>8680759
>You'd be better off with a $20 Dexter, a coarse/fine oilstone, and a pasted strop than the overwhelming majority of people using butter knife dull knives or using knives with damaged edges from power sharpening or steeling.

>>8685285
>It's just a matter of using a coarse enough stone to produce results in a timely fashion for a novice

Since you've been reading the thread, how can anyone come to any other conclusion other than that you are knowingly and deliberately lying?

>>8697012
>someone didn't want to listen to hours of nasal droning
I'm shocked

>>8696985
>You're assuming that the REAL challenge is figuring out the interesting questions like whether carbide boundaries or grain size are more important when it comes to subjective sharpening feedback.
>an autistic dissertation on high speed tool steels

Why are you continuing to deliberately lie? Anyone can go back and read the thread and see I've never mentioned anything of the sort. What I have repeatedly said is that it is more important for beginners to understand how and why to make sure they have fully apexed the edge on the coarsest stone (by forming a full length burr on one side then flipping it to the other side), and to understand how to remove a burr once it has been created, rather than worrying about having angle cotrol better than plus or minus a few degrees.

>>8697076
Why is everything you disagree with an anti-intellectual lie? It's a fact that angle control matters. Downplaying this is not helping anyone. It doesn't matter if your hobby subculture is fixated on carbides or on (as you posted) microscope images of an edge you find religiously objectionable, or whether burrs should be removed with wine corks or horse butt or monocrystalline diamond charged felt. Either way you are taking the discussion into territory that does not matter to most people. It's not a decision between uchigumori vs binsui toishi. It is between (A) a tool that's easy, and (B) dull knives that DON'T GET SHARPENED AT ALL. And by "easy" I mean in a sense that a non-hobbyist would agree with. Not "you aren't doing it right dumbass you have to watch hours of nasal droning or you might as well go to McDonalds"

Not even sharpening professionals would actually claim that an edgepro is harder or that it's being promoted on the premise that the user shouldn't make any attempt at understanding how the tool works. You don't need to freehand to grasp sharpening, and even if you did, the point of sharpening is to cut food effectively, not to e-peen about how you don't consider it hard.

>>8697907
I have no interest in enabling your knowing and deliberate lying any further, thank you.

>>8697907
glad someone finally assblasted that autist

>>8697920
Just shut up, all his points are correct. You're taking WAY further than 99% of people will ever care about. Enjoy it for yourself, and stop proselytizing.

>>8695804
So, did it arrive? You should make a new thread, this one is getting close to bump limit

>>8695360
>click link
>"in this video, I'm going to give a brief explanation and demonstration of..."
>46 minutes long
Nope.

>>8695360
>click the second link
>guy thinks he NEEDS to dull his knives before sharpening them or they won't take a good edge
>freehanding the fucking stone and not just using a tabletop
What the fuck. I could have found so many good videos to show how to sharpen, but you pick these?

>>8697026
>75 Posters

>>8697907
>Still 75 Posters

>>8697924
>Still 75 Posters

>>8698793
>Still 75 Posters

>>8698837
>Still 75 Posters

>>8698847
>Still 75 Posters

Really sets the noggin joggin.

>>8698847
He picked them because he made them

And now he's going to rage autistically against your "intellectual dishonesty" because you didn't watch all 7 of them from start to finish and there was something in your post that he "refuted" at some point in the hours and hours of endless nasal droning

>>8698854
>Still 75 Posters

Really sends the brain down the lane.

I haven't entered this argument yet, but as someone who has been sharpening for over a decade and gets paid to do so, let me say:
- Almost everyone knows that a skilled person sharpening by hand is better than a guided system.
- Most people have no interest in learning how to sharpen by hand. Scraping expensive metal against a brick feels terrible to a beginner.
- Guided and automatic systems are made for these people, and there is no shame in using them on cheap knives. Many professional kitchens around the world churn out hundreds of meals a week with cheap knives and crappy sharpening systems. They work.
- Don't go around saying that everyone should learn the basics of hand sharpening. The same could be said for loads of topics (programming, automotive repair, electronics, repairing and maintaining clothes, cookery, etc...) and chances are you don't know most them.

I'm all for hand sharpening, but I think the stone advocates get carried away and forget these points sometimes.

>>8698853
considering the thread is several days old, why wouldnt people come back and point out your retardedness?

So I have this one sharpening stone I got from my dad which is probably like 3 times as old as I am. No idea what grit it is or whether I'm supposed to use water or oil or anything. I do have some shitty dull knives to practice on though, is it worth trying?

>>8698914
Yeah man go nuts. Do you understand some of the basic theory in sharpening or is it all new to you?

>>8698914

razor hone #118S
http://straightrazorplace.com/srpwiki/index.php/Carborundum_Hones

would be classified as a medium grit stone from a knife point of view. it's an extraordinarily coarse hone for razor purposes, not something you would use except on a severely damaged razor, but if you have some dull knives, especially knives made of not particularly wear resistant steel, it could be useful for practice

>>8698954
>>8698914
actually the previous link said #118, I found another for #118S and this guy calls it a 5-6k equivalent

http://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/can-someone-tell-me-the-grit-of-carborundum-118s-barber-hone.239209/

5-6k would definitely not be very useful for any knife until you're fairly proficient, and even if you're fairly proficient it's kinda pointless except on a fairly hard steel capable of holding that level of edge

>>8698963
>>8698954
actually disregard all that, I'm an idiot. I suspect the guy who said 900-1000 meant ANSI and the guy calling it a 5-6k meant JIS

that's still a ways off (1k ANSI is really like 2k JIS) but with stuff that old you have to be careful which system you're talking about since JIS was unheard of outside Japan and people may be referring to catalog grit (from the period) or their estimate on the grit (from the modern point of view where JIS has pretty much taken over)

>>8698914
Here's what I could dig up about that stone with some quick Google-Fu:

http://www.tomonagura.com/synthetic-razor-hones/barber-hones/carborundum-118s.html

It is a silicon carbide oilstone that is around 4,000 grit.

>>8698963
Yeah, just came across the same link after a bunch of ebay "vintage carborundum stone" auctions, lel. Given I am a total beginner, it sounds rather futile even for practice.

Harbor freight sells some really cheap dual-grit stones http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/sharpeners.html also a diamond block one. Do they seem good enough to start with? I imagine it's hard to screw up a brick of sand, but I dunno.

>>8698992
diamonds cut much faster than anything else given the same grit level, so I'm highly in favor of them. the cheaper ones have disadvantages of size, less perfect flatness, and probably diamonds getting broken out of the matrix more quickly which would make the stone less effective over time, but I haven't used enough diamond stuff to have a strong opinion

I'm not so keen on cheap mineral stones (silicon carbide or whatever else), my experiences with them have been universally bad. not that you can't sharpen with them but they often require extensive work to flatten before using, they give terrible feedback, they load up like crazy, and they wear fast

that being said, $3 isn't much to lose sleep over

>>8699006
>extensive work to flatten before using
Hmm, how bad? According to internet you can flatten sharpening stones with regular sandpaper and a piece of glass.

But yeah, for 3 bux I'll try one. Will post results if this thread is still around.

>>8699006
Having used diamond and ceramic, I greatly prefer ceramic. Diamond stones are quite delicate.

>>8699053
>According to internet you can flatten sharpening stones with regular sandpaper and a piece of glass.

Yeah and according to the internet, freehand sharpening is totally easy (all you need to do is listen to hours and hours of nasal droning and get a full day's worth of hands-on in person tutorials)

Yes, you can flatten stones with sandpaper, you don't need glass, any flat and hard object will do. You can also sharpen them with a sidewalk, or another stone, or a coarse diamond lapping plate, or various "stone fixer" things that you can buy. Flattening stones, especially at this grit level and for this purpose, is not rocket science. You'll want to get pickier when you move on to flattening stones for straight razors, those are picky.

Thing is "hard" is not the issue, the issue is I've got other things that I'd rather do with my hands than scraping two pieces of abrasive together for 45 minutes (if you're lucky... sometimes it's even slower). Some people say they like to watch TV. Nope, you can't even hear what they're saying with the din of scraping. You're stuck just scraping, like shortbus over there spinning a sippy cup in the corner while rocking back and forth. Nope. I'd rather just spend an extra $30 and get something that works out of the box.

Having said that, hey you just spent $30 why not spend $50 and get something really nice! Oh man but now you want a better flattening plate, wouldn't it also be nice to have a coarser stone for bevel setting? And a finer one? Also the grit progression isn't right anymore I'd rather go double the grit for every step. Hmm I could sure use a rubber stone base to keep things neater and more stable. Maybe I should get a strop. My knives kind of suck, maybe I should upgrade.

And this is how it starts, and then fast forward a bit and you're spending friday night accusing strangers of samefagging on the internet because more than one person made fun of your sharpening autism videos.

Just get a Chef's Choice™.

>>8698992
If you are looking for a first sharpening stone, I would recommend avoiding the super cheap aluminum oxide or silicon carbide oilstones as they often come very far from flat. I don't see the point when you can get a Norton India oilstone (which is composed of aluminum oxide) or a Norton Crystolon oilstone (which is composed of silicon carbide) for $20 and they will come flat enough to use out of the box.

>>8699053
While you can flatten sharpening stones with sandpaper applied to glass, it is much more effective and faster to purchase loose silicon carbide abrasive grit and a sheet of glass to flatten sharpening stones instead. Mind you, with a quality aluminum oxide oilstone it would require quite a lot of use of the stone to wear it enough to require flattening again (so long as you always use mineral oil on the stone when using it. The oil is critical for preventing the metal swarf coming off the blade being sharpened from sticking to the stone and reducing its cutting speed).

Silicon carbide oilstones probably should be flattened before being used for the first time and at least occasionally afterawards because silicon carbide stones have a much weaker bond holding the abrasive together into a block. As a result, when you use these types of stones they tend to shed grit fairly easily, but since they shed grit when they are used they eventually stop being flat and need to be re-flattened. This can be done easily and cheaply using coarse silicon carbide abrasive powder and a glass plate, both of which can be easily purchased from Lee Valley Tools.

If you are planning on just using the stone for kitchen knives, then a Norton India oilstone (which is made out of aluminum oxide) would probably suit your needs better since it will not need to be flattened out of the box and probably will never need to be flattened (again, so long as you always coat it with light mineral oil while using it).

>>8685441
>>8685441
>Is IKEA 365+ good?
For what you pay for them, yes, they are. I have that exact same knife and it performs really nicely. The geometry is pretty thin, too.