/ck/ - Food & Cooking

Traditional French, Italian, and Spanish cuisine are the top 3 in Europe on account of their lack of aversion to vegetable matter.

As you get too far East or North, the cheese and meat may be good, the grain foods may be good, but it becomes increasingly monochrome on account of climate and culture.

This is perfectly agreeable to many people in the Anglosphere who grew up eating only processed bread and luncheon meats, but it's objectively a limiting, boring diet.

>>8568282
Can confirm, in Poland our cuisine is extremly fat and caloric. It dates back to times when most people were pesant farmer working all day in the field. Food was supposed to fill you up and give you energy for the rest of the day.

>>8568273
no, it's easily the most expansive and best cuisine in the world.

>>8568273
No, but only rustic french cuisine. Get out of Paris and the other cities, visit the country.

>>8568351
>t. Sean Pierre

>>8568364

I'm danish.
granted, a lot of european cuisine is similar.
but literally by virtue of mirepoix alone france beats any other food culture

>>8568273
Yes extremely, real french food is kinda shit, quite a bit of french cuisine is stolen, for example the crepe/galette was stolen from Brittany, a small Celtic region that was unforunately annexed by those faggot frenchwads, anyway, the crepe was peasant food in Brittany due to the abundance of buckwheat growing there.

>>8568282
I've only ever had Italian. What are some good authentic French and Spanish food people should try?

>>8568273
It has had a massive influence on contemporary cuisine, the french culinary tradition has honestly in one way or another influenced every kitchen in the western world. We still use french terms for positions, apparatus, techniques, and ingredients in english (and polish to a lesser extent) professional kitchens.
>>8568343
This is widely true, although you can still find traces of Slavic food served to nobility, and it is fucking godly.

>>8568383
>It has had a massive influence on contemporary cuisine, the french culinary tradition has honestly in one way or another influenced every kitchen in the western world.

In what way?

>We still use french terms for positions, apparatus, techniques, and ingredients in english (and polish to a lesser extent) professional kitchens.

We don´t

>>8568378
If you want something close to authentic french food order orange chicken from your local chinese takeout place and get them to replace chicken with duck, that's pretty much duck a la ronge.

Also anyone who says crepes are full of shit, crepes are a Breton dish (I'm not joking, Bretons are a real group of people, they're celts)

For spanish try paella or ropa vieja

>>8568393
>in what way
Introducing wine snobbery and fart sniffery to the world

>>8568376
>that butthurt Celtic pride guy
Give it a rest, you aren't a real people. Even Furfags have more 'culture' than you

>>8568414
The French aren't real people, they literally have no culture to call their own apart from buttchugging overpriced wine and being massive fags.

It's not even Celtic pride, it's more that the French are taking credit where it isn't due, they have done this to so many other cultures it's hard to list them all.

>>8568424
>they have literally no culture to call their own
Says the guy who thinks his ugly tattoos and shitty ''''music'''' is a culture

Maybe if you weren't so busy defending celtic ''''culture'''' on the internet you'd realize that basically every nation state in Europe contains lands that were once somewhat more autonomous than they are today, that centralization of power is an unstoppable trend, that an amalgam of ethnic groups makes up each country, and that your fantasy fiction graphic novels are not history books.

>>8568393

go be a dumbass somewhere else

>>8568439
>and that your fantasy fiction graphic novels are not history books.
you've gone too far anonymous

>>8568439
Pretty much all "Celtic" tattoo's are shit, trashy and insanely inauthentic to actual Celtic design and modern interpretation of Celtic music is pretty shit.

You must be French, if you weren't such a homo and stopped taking it up the ass for one minute maybe you'd be able to do a little bit of research on the Bretons in between your shitposting sessions and assblasting sessions with Jamal and Ahmed or do you really believe Brittany actually belongs to the french.

Stop calling things you don't like fantasy fiction graphic novels, the Bretons were a real group of people that have been fucked over by the french, even though they aren't mentioned much in history they still exist no matter how much you stick your fingers in your ears and say "LALALALALA THAT'S NOT TRUE LALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING"

>>8568470
>he doesn't subscribe to my inane fantasy ''''culture''''' therefore he must be french
Sure thing tattoo boy. Go listen to some Enya and relax.

>>8568481
No, you just sound like a typical arrogant frenchman saying that anything you don't know enough about is bullshit etc.

Either that or you are an uneducated yankee fuck

>>8568452
not very convincing

>>8568490
I'm an educated yankee fuck, and I enjoy FRENCH foods like crepes, kouign amman, and so on.

Your irrational attachment to graphic novels is sad. You should at least pretend to be Basque or something, at least a real culture not a fake made up one like the so-called '''''celts''''

>>8568376
>for example the crepe/galette was stolen from Brittany
Every single European country makes pancakes. There's evidence the Ancient Greeks made pancakes in the 5th century BC. Brittany didn't invent pancakes. The French didn't either, but then again they never claimed that. It's not as if crepes define French cuisine.

>>8568273
>t I don´t find it any better or worse than other European cuisine
Might be because most european cuisine is heavily influenced by french cuisine by now.
Unless you mean traditional dishes.

>>8568502
Kouign amann is a Celtic name, the fact you try to deny that Celtic culture doesn't exist while using Celtic words is just fucking astounding

>>8568508
>Might be because most european cuisine is heavily influenced by french cuisine by now.
>>8568393
>In what way?

>>8568528
For what purpose are you citing this way? Are you drunk?

>>8568505
It is a type of pancake yes but the crepe originated in Brittany, the preparation of traditional crepes differs a bit from normal pancakes

>>8568535
2 people have claimed that it heavily influenced all Western European cuisines.

Give convincing examples please

>>8568524
>muh tattoos
It's a French name, tattoo boy. Go find another subjugated ''''culture''''' to pretend to be, this time pick one that isn't a figment of some horny graphic novelist's imagination.

>>8568543
>The name derives from the Breton language words for cake ('kouign') and butter ('amann'). The Welsh equivalent is the etymologically identical Cacan menyn, literally 'cake (of) butter'.

Suck my balls yankee fuck, go find a better culture to jerk off to over the nonexistant french culture, there are so many other superior cultures you can furiously beat your one inch warrior to.

>>8568542
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_cuisine
I know it's wikipedia.
But it's still correct.

>>8568543
>>8568556
In fact why don't you try Japanese, there's enough autism in the sushi culture to keep you going for years

>>8568556
Yes, so nonexistent that they have crepes, kouign amman, and special underwater boats that shoot nuclear missiles, while you have... tattoos, enya, and a whole lotta butthurt

There really needs to be a containment board for all these graphic novel otaku who scream about how "Spanish" isn't a language and Alexander the Great wasn't really Greek

>>8568557

>During that time, French cuisine was heavily influenced by Italian cuisine.

Can´t find, pls help

>>8568556
>>8568571

GTFO of my thread.

>>8568572
>In the 17th century, chefs François Pierre La Varenne and Marie-Antoine Carême spearheaded movements that shifted French cooking away from its foreign influences and developed France's own indigenous style.

Why would you cherrypick something like that?
Fuck off if you're just going to shitpost.
French cuisine is what led to modern day gastronomy, fucking deal with it.

>>8568571
Maybe if you used the internet for things other than french gay scat porn and browsing 4chan you might find something new about the history of the world other than the drivel you were taught in your abysmal public school system.

You really should educate yourself on world history or are you too "smart" to learn anything new

>>8568378

I live in Spain. Spanish food is much less consistent across the country, and lends itself to a lot of regional differences.

Probably the most well-known "national" dish is paella, but paella still has a lot variations. Valencian paella is the one paella most people think of then they think paella, and is typically made with shellfish, while paella where I live is more typically made with chicken or rabbit.

Embutidos, which is Spanish charcuterie, is also fairly easy to find across the country, but every comunidad and sometimes individual provinces have unique embutidos. The most common are jamon iberico and jamon serrano, which are dry hams, as well as chorizo and salchichon.

Otherwise, like I said, cuisine gets very regional. Basque cuisine is distinct from the rest of Spain, Leonese cuisine is distinct, Galician cuisine is distinct, etc. etc. etc.

>>8568394

Ropa Vieja is Caribbean, not Spanish.

>>8568589
Shit, really, my mistake, I had it somewhere and I thought it was a spanish place or something cause they had other spanish dishes on the menu too.

>>8568584
Sorry I didn't play along with your delusional view of reality. Maybe you can argue with this guy since he seems to think sub-regions of a country are still a part of that country >>8568587

Meanwhile here's some more nonexistent FRENCH culture taking place in Breast, FRANCE

>>8568594
It's common in some parts of the US to refer to caribbean hispanics as "spanish" due to some historical anachronisms, racism, and ignorance

>>8568611
Have fun being an uneducated American francophile moron buddy, I'm sure if you shill hard for the french they might accept you one day.

>>8568616
Wasn't even in the US, was at a restaurant in Melbourne Australia

>>8568622
Yes I'm a Francophile just like I'm an Anglophile for thinking that Sealand isn't a real country

Enya fans, ladies and gents

>>8568594

it happens, particularly because Caribbean cuisines exchange a lot more amongst each other, and there is Spanish influence.

but I can tell you firsthand, ropa vieja is not a thing you can very typically get in Spain. I wish it was, because I miss Caribbean food.

>>8568633
I don't even know who the fuck Enya even is let alone why you keep mentioning her as if she represents Celtic culture at all.

>>8568589
>Ropa Vieja is Caribbean, not Spanish.

It's also popular in the Canaries

>>8568273
>better or worse than other European cuisines
well, it's vastly different than eastern european cuisine. It has access to warmer climate veggies, herbs, and luscious fruits throughout most of the year.

Frankly, as the terrain becomes more rocky, wintry, arid, or limiting, the food can get less diverse except where trade fills in the deficient. When food isn't diverse, you can get kind of bored if that's your only choice. I posit this is why butter chicken/curry is so popular in England, it's a welcome flavor burst from more hearty and similar daily menus of traditional English cuisine.

>>8568282
>Traditional French, Italian, and Spanish cuisine are the top 3 in Europe on account of their lack of aversion to vegetable matter.
This.
I wouldn't argue with that whatsoever. The other cuisines are more like "when in the mood" or "when in town" deliciousness, a couple good things at a time like Moules Frites, or smoked salmon and awesome smorbrod choices. Both are heavenly, but they are part of something that would get old fast if that's all you had to eat.

>>8568393
Some french terms include
Sous, commis, chef de partie
Saute, blanche, sous vide, flambe
Bain marie, mandoline,
Mirepoix, jus, bouillon, panee, bavette, entrecote, other cuts
Hors d'oeurves
This is off the top of my head, and not including the countless recipes and styles prevalent across the world.

>>8568634
I've never really tried much Caribbean food, there's not much of it here in Melbourne which is a bit of a shame, I really wanna try jerk chicken

>>8568641

actually, that makes a lot of sense. Canarians in particular exchanged a lot with the Caribbean.

>>8568645

Hell, even the term "Chef" derives from French.

There's also the classic "mother sauces" like bechamel, mornay, etc. Roux. Boudin sausage. The list goes on....

>>8568648
>I really wanna try jerk chicken

So google some recipes and make it yourself.

>>8568502
>kouign amman
oo, I never knew what that was called. Thank you anon.

What I would love the name of....those cookies from brittany region that are buttery shortbread cookies but have corn meal in the batter. They are sweet and very crisp.

>>8568645
>>8568661

Yes and we are writing with arabic numerals and latin letters.

Does not mean I face Mecca and pray to Allah 5x/day

>>8568665
Good idea

>>8568672
This guy

>>8568669
They're just called Breton butter biscuits/cookies or palets breton

>>8568678
Of course he's going to say that, it's just a social nicety because otherwise people will think he's arrogant. It's like when they interview the sports superstar and he says "oh I'm really just a klutz lol" or they interview the most beautiful supermodel and she goes "well, they SAY I'm pretty but I don't really know"

>>8568672
Are you really this retarded?

>>8568692
Based on the fact that he feels the need to put on a tripcode to post it's very likely

>>8568689
Headline was: French cooking: Outdated and overrated?

>>8568692
Maybe?

>>8568700
I'd base it on the fact that he's trying to argue against established facts.

>>8568704
Obviously you are.

>>8568707
>>8568700

I feel like some francophile foodies can´t handle the truth.

>>8568687
>palets breton
Thank you anon. Now I have a google search term. I appreciate it.

>>8568712
>>8568700
I'm actually the Breton guy, I think the french are fags

>>8568712
It has nothing to do with liking frogs or not.
It's fact.

I live like 5km away from France atm and every French dish I tried was quite lackluster, hence my question.

Maybe the fancy haute cuisine is a different world.
But again who wears haute couture?

>>8568672
You fucking dunce, the formats, methods, and techniques of classical french cuisine form the basis of any decent professional kitchen and you'd know that had you stepped in one and/or read larousse. I don't even like the classic french dishes that much, but anyone ignorant of the role it played on contemporary cuisine should open a book.

>>8568714
No worries mate, I'm not too sure whether the recipe is supposed to have cornmeal though, Bretons usually used buckwheat flour or just normal flour, I've never heard of the Bretons growing corn historically or them using any corn products in their food.

Another traditional Breton sweet you might wanna try is "far breton", it's kinda like a flan

>>8568738
Yeah ok.
But again are PRESENT DAY French dishes any better then these of other European countries?

>>8568745
Short answer; no, long answer; no.

People like to glorify French cuisine and make it out as if it's gods gift to the culinary world, it's just food at the end of the day and all that matters is the taste of the dish in front of you.

>>8568738

understanding the influence of French cuisine on professional kitchens is different than talking about whether or not French cuisine is, in and of itself, good

influence and quality are two different conversations; you're arguing about the importance of French cuisine to modern cooking, but OP is about French food itself bud

>>8568756
>influence and quality are two different conversations; you're arguing about the importance of French cuisine to modern cooking, but OP is about French food itself bud

Yes excatly that.
Sorry as you can see I am not a native english speaker.

No doubt the French contributed much to modern cooking. Like the Greek did with natural sciences.

But modern day Greek scientists are well....

>>8568611

what are you even talking about? all I said was "Spanish cuisine" has a lot more regional variation than most people assume.

>>8568776
He's a retard, don't mind him

>>8568776
Right. SPANISH cuisine, not 'boo hoo muh graphic novels, the visigoths invented molecular gastronomy'

>spanish food
>good

>>8568769
Niggle you contested the influence. As for the quality I would say they have the most refined, widespread restaurant tradition in Europe. There exists good food everywhere, and the flavours are largely preferance, but I would say it is easier to find an excellent restaurant in France than anywhere else.

>>8568273

Extremely overrated. Probably the most overrated food in existence. That doesn't mean it's not good, there's just nothing very exciting about it. It's great for people who love rich, fatty, buttery dishes, and that's about it.

>>8569092
>It's great for people who love rich, fatty, buttery dishes, and that's about it.
Yes and all vegetarian food resembles "the Moosewood Cookbook"

t. fellow time traveler from 1975 middle america

>>8568394
> a la range

What french cuisine is there besides the bread, pastries and dessert? I guess there's french onion soup which is probably a bastardization of french cuisine but what else is there?

I don't think I've had french cuisine otherwise.

>>8569570
get the fuck out of this board, pleb

>>8569570
doing anything with garlic, onion, celery or carrot? you're probably working with a french dish or a derivative. In fact, almost all food is a french derivative

>>8569576
I live in a city but I've just never gone to the few french restaurants around. Most restaurants here are American, Greek, some sort of Spanish, Italian or some kind of East Asian restaurant.

I've had quiche a handful of times but that's really it.

>>8569570
Wow really? The French take food pretty seriously. French cheeses, duck everything, coq au vin, beef bourguignon, pot au feu, etc.

>>8569592
>I've just never gone to the few french restaurants
GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT

>>8569576
Nice animu, fag.

>>8569613
Just name some good meat, vegetable and grain french cuisine. Do french people actually eat their own kind of pasta? Do they eat rice? What is their staple food?

I spent some time in rural France visiting a friend, and the food was so plain.
>muh fresh local ingredients
A local cow doesn't taste better just because it's local. And I'll take Buddha's delight over ratatouille any day of the week. The best thing I ate in my time there were sausages handmade by an English pig farmer. Good God, and what is up with their operating hours. If it's not national eating time, you're shit out of luck.

>>8569604
You forgot the most important one

>>8569623
Bread, dumbass. That's why there's a bakery on every corner.

>>8569660
Hey dumbass:

>>8569570
>What french cuisine is there besides the bread, pastries and dessert?
>besides the bread

>>8569666
There's just so much variety it's hard to start. French cuisine isn't like Italian or Chinese that's been shoehorned into 4 or 5 dishes.

>>8569634
I hope someone drowns me in Armagnac too.

>>8569678
>haphazardly throw meat in a bowl of beans

>>8569734
Bait I'm sure, but if not, have you ever experienced the pain in the dick that is making cassoulet? Takes forever, but it might be the best meat and bean dish out there.

>>8569570
I eat Italian cuisine all the time, but French?
Not really

>>8568393
>In what way?
They basically invented restaurants. Ever heard of a sous chef? even chef itself is a borrowed word

>>8569932
Restaurant is itself a French word.

>>8569932
Yet your average person probably isn't familiar with most french cuisine outside of bread, pastries, dessert and maybe a few soups; in contrast to other ethnic food. At best they have some vague idea of haute cuisine, which is outside of the price range or eating habits of most people.

>>8569623
As of meats the most consumed are the usual pork, chicken and beef trinity but you'll have no problem finding duck, goose, mutton, lamb, veal, game (pheasant, boar, hare and so on).
>Various charcuterie (personally fond of andouillette and saucisson à l'ail), poule au pot, daube, duck magret, blanquette de veau...

Veggies-wise France is quite big on green salads and it's quite frequent to have some during meals, alone or as a side. Otherwise most consumed are green beans, carrots, endives, leeks, zucchini, onions. Tomatoes too if you take the broad sense of vegetable.
>Ratatouille, piperade, various gratins, carotte vichy, farci poitevin, tomates farcies...

Grain is mostly breads, potatoes and pasta. France does have its own pasta, mostly from the east and south-east with recipes such as the raviole du dauphiné, crozets and the crouzet.
Potatoes have countless recipes such as the aligot, truffade, hachis parmentier, gratin dauphinois, paté aux pommes de terre, tartiflette and all the pommes-something (anna, soufflées, dauphines, duchesse...).
It's kind of funny to see so many potatoes based recipes in France when you know how difficult it was for the French to start eating them.

Rice is mostly eaten as a side or used in stuffing. Some desserts recipes like the riz au lait (though every country had its own version of the rice pudding) and the teurgoule.

In the end, as for any country in the world, the specialties vary between the regions and what is common in one may be unknow in the others.

>>8568470
>do you really believe Brittany actually belongs to the french.
it's belonged to france for nearly 500 years

>it's a Brittany is hostile towards France episode

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RwCnSeuzQ4

>>8569936
Cuisine is a French word too.

>>8569963
Have an internet my good sir.

>>8570229
Related picture.

>>8570229
The Bretons will rise as the Irish did and we'll reclaim our land with blood and steel

>>8570741
>brittany will rise again

Yeah, all 3.2 million of you against the rest of the 63 million french. Not even once.

>>8570781
Why do you think the Romans had to bring in ridiculously large armies to beat a comparatively smaller army of Celts and why did they refer to us as barbarians or savages in warfare

>>8570789
Standard guerilla warfare which could be effective to some degree against larger forces, but the French should have learned the techniques to defeat that with their debacle in vietnam. Then again, we are talking about the french, so maybe you have a point.

>>8570890
>wat is Algeria
They won't have any trouble with a few pasty NEETs who listen to enya

>>8570924
>The war against French rule concluded in 1962, when Algeria gained complete independence following the March 1962 Evian agreements and the July 1962 self-determination referendum.

The french lost that one to a bunch of muslims doing hit and runs, try again buddy

>>8570982
>lost that one
Sure, after killing a quarter million Algerians. Something tells me the number of people in Brittany who like things the way they are outnumber the NEETs with their celtic ''''body art'''' but if they want to "rise up" against the rightful government then I'll be here waiting with my popcorn at the ready

>>8570996
A loss is still a loss no matter how many of the other side you kill, in fact losing after killing a quarter million of the opposition is really fucking pathetic.

And anyway, as I said "celtic" body art is trashy and not at all an accurate representation of actual celtic culture, nor is Enya.

The Bretons have also campaigned to have the two regions of Brittany reunited, I'm not sure on how that's going though, they still use the language and feel a strong connection to Celtic culture and more specifically to Breton culture, if you'd actually been to Brittany and seen what goes on you would know that but you're just an uneducated yank that's too arrogant to admit he's wrong and learn something new.

>>8570982
When was the last war the french won again? It wasn't in the early 1800's because Napolean got his ass kicked. Educate me. I'm just a curious amerilard. Was it in the 1600's?

>>8571212
The Sino-French war in 1884-1885, they fought the Chinese in this war and somehow won control over Vietnam which was under Chinese protection.

Since then it's been constant failure or they've had to call in allies so they don't get completely annihilated but even then they don't fare too well

>>8571243
WWII ya dingus

>>8571252
They didn't win that at all, they got completely steamrolled by the Nazi's and were occupied until they got saved by everyone else, getting saved doesn't count as a win mate.

>>8571260
yeah it does, fuck it

>>8571269
no it doesn't

>>8568378
Ratatouille it a more recent french food, but its characteristic of most french food I've had. It's a complex and subtle combination of flavours, that emphasises the whole rather than the parts. I find French foods tend to have a refreshing and light quality that isn't found in other European styles of food except for some Spanish dishes.

>>8571113
A loss is when your military or political objectives are not achieved. Such as, in the case of Algeria, maintaining a short-lived colony over a culturally and religiously, not to mention geographically distinct region.

You can watch Riverdance as many times as you want, but Brittany is not looking for independence and nobody other than some Enya fans actually care. So in your case they won't have to kill a quarter million. They probably won't have to kill anyone. They'll just call your mom and say "your son is posting stupid shit on the internet, isn't it past his bedtime?" And your mom will come downstairs and unplug your computer.

>>8571260
>they
You mean "we". You are French, Breton is a made-up ethnicity.

>>8572469
>>8572476
You seem really butthurt at the suggestion that Bretons are a real group of people, did a Breton rape your mother or something?

Plus Enya is Irish, not a Breton

>>8572486
Bumping for the French are fags

>>8572527
Indeed, the French are fags

Bumping with Bretons in traditional clothing.

>>8568378
In France snails, frog legs, baguette while riding a bicycle. In Spain paella and donkey meat freshly thrown from a church bell tower.

>>8572597
Bretons appear to be a lot more hardy and strong looking than the typical limp wristed french faggot. So I guess the odds of 3 million against 63 million are in the Bretons' favor.

ITT: Celtic internet defence force

There is a saying in the French Foreign Legion, "The French put shit on a platter and call it gold."

The Foreign Legion is known by its romantic image of mercenary troops of all colors and creeds escaping from misfortune and coming together to form new lives. In reality it's a bunch of third world shitskins and slavs who can't cut it in society so they sign up to hand out bread and medical care to Africans, and occasionally shoot somebody when a chimpout happens.

I have no reason to believe the same does not apply to French cuisine. It's probably a meme.

french cuisine is good if you like the flavors of french food but this point the technique aspect that was their hallmark is now present in pretty much every other cuisine. I prefer provencial/nicoise preparations with more vegetables and seafood, rather than heartier Breton/Burgundian/Parisian/Alsatian cuisines, but that's because I prefer Italian/Mediterranean cuisine generally. If you enjoy a particular style of dish then some of the preparations/classics are top-tier (buerre blanc is great with fish, Steak au Puarve is a great beef dish, coq a vin is a good way to use rooster e.g.) and, as mentioned earlier, it was greatly influential on food culture generally, not just in the US but in Japan as well (trigger warning, reddit; https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/537bio/spoilers_shokugeki_no_souma_ni_no_sara_episode_12/d7qkddy/?sh=144edd59&st=it7m8cdw).).

At this point the hype is due to the pedigree, and less to the food itself, so no, i wouldn't say that french food is (currently) overrated.

>turn on /ck/
>it's a muh culture x invented y a billion years before culture j invented """""""k"""""""""
Can you people just accept that humans aren't that creative and come up with the same general ideas? And that if your primary concern is how to not starve to death and you see some fag across the river doing something that looks like it would help you with that goal you would do it too? Literally no different then the black historical revisionists trying to say Lincoln was black.

>>8573498
>I have no reason to believe the same does not apply to French cuisine.

So what you're saying is that you're ignorant?

>>8568273
bf's mom brought me a box of pic related back from a trip to france and they were my first macarons. even three days old they were amazing... later tried some from a bakery in sf and was so disappointed and confused.

>>8573791
>Can you stop being racist idiots?
NEVER!