/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>16413580
Bread is textbook cultural appropriation.

YOU didn't invent it.

>>16413594
The best spite is for those that don't even have a leg to stand on for their opinion.

>>16413594
My people made bread what it is today. Beer too.

How we standing on sandwiches these days?
Still a big proponent of the stacked slices myself.

>>16413580
>Also, how is it that wet bread dough can be left out at room temperature, in the summer no less, and not develop some toxic shit that gives you food poisoning?
Probably because the vast majority of "food safety" info you picked up in school is there to prevent lawsuits in the edge cases where that actually does occur, not to actually protect people.

>>16413674
Nice conspiracy mate, truly well thought out. It's definitely not the very high dividing or "budding" capabilities of the yeasts overwhelming any other living organisms in a matter of minutes in the Right condition aka in a warm ball of starch just waiting to be converted into simple sugars for our little yeasty Bois to feast on and fart some bubbles.

Flour stays edible in room temp for long time, dough is just that + water so you can imagine it being resistant to bacteria, the water movement level does aid bacteria growth but it's relatively solid material.
Then if you add animal based products like milk or eggs that are nutrient rich the time you can keep it around is much shorter.

I never kept dough in room temp for more than maybe 8h tho. Theres no process where longer time makes sense.

>>16413691
>dough is just that + water so you can imagine it being resistant to bacteria
I can't imagine that at all. That sounds like nearly the perfect food for bacteria to thrive.

>>16413707
Its not animal based with all the possible amino acids, fat & proteins bacteria would like
Its not liquid, the bacteria particles cant move trough the material
It's not rich in oxygen
It's full of active bacteria already and their waste product
It doesnt degrade by itself, its stable, no fat that can break down
99% of the possible nutrients come from wheat so it minimizes potential bacteria variety


Ground meat/porous fish is the perfect food for bacteria

>>16413734
Once you add water to the flour, half of those things are invalidated. Wasn't there that viral video about the guy who ate pasta that was on the stove overnight and it put him in the hospital?

>>16413752
>Once you add water to the flour, half of those things are invalidated.
It doesnt, normal dough isnt very wet and all the points apply.

Pasta is much much better for bacteria growth. Theres more air surface area, theres fats, egg, it's cooked.
Cooked pasta/rice are some of worst things to leave in room temp for more than 4h

>>16413594
>Bread is textbook cultural appropriation.
That's actually a very funny statement when you think about it, But given the boatloads of bullshit we hear from social sciences et al these days I have no doubt this could actually be from a textbook. In a post about no-knead bread no less lmao

>>16413580
Post the recipe

>>16413594
There was no knead for this

>>16413691
>I never kept dough in room temp for more than maybe 8h tho. Theres no process where longer time makes sense.
Sourdough

>>16413691
I leave my no knead bread out for 12 -18 hours

>>16414187
This is what I went off of
https://ourbestbites.com/easy-no-knead-overnight-artisan-bread/

>>16413691
>>16413734
>>16413773
i have never seen a more clear case of dunning kruger

>>16413580
The bacteria is eating plants, not meat. Plants can get diseases all the time but they cannot make the jump to humans. 75% of new diseases are zoonotic jumps from other animals.

It’s the mold that you cannot eat, but yeast and bacteria while alive will secrete chemicals that taste good and also prevent mold from taking hold. Only if they’ve been dead for a long time can the mold establish itself.

>>16415246
And by inedible mold I mean the waste product from mold is what will kill you

>>16415236
You forgot to explain how world truly works.

>>16415060
I tried a recipe that was very similar to this, https://theconscientiouseater.com/easy-4-ingredient-whole-wheat-artisan-bread/, and my bread came out extremely incredibly dense. Which may be a product of the whole wheat, granted. But still, have realistic expectations for how light a bread that hasn't been kneaded can be.

>>16414260
CARLOS

>>16413752
That's Bacillus cereus and they don't grow on dough https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3091561/

And people make too much of a fuss about it. If you boil the rice/pasta and put the lid back on after taking out what you need you'll be fine if you let it sit at room temp for a day. If you still haven't frozen/refrigerated it by day two it'll smell like dish rags anyway and anyone who eats that deserve food poisoning by natural selection

>>16413580
Adding a bunch of yeast gives it a leg up - a half teaspoon is many thousands of yeast cells, and given an hour in tepid water, it will bloom to millions. It creates a mildly acidic environment for itself, filled with carbon dioxide, that most other critters don't like. Lactobacillus will grow alongside a lot of yeasts in a lot of environments, but it's just going to make things tart or sour. Some molds will try to take hold right away, but the ones that grow on bread also tend to be relatively harmless.

If bread and beer were killing people off, agriculture would probably be a much different thing than it is today.

>>16416382
I make plenty of no knead bread using bread flour and it comes out light and airy. I think it's just your whole wheat flour sesu

>>16413580
I'd think it would go bad faster if you put in more yeast rather than less. if you put in loads of yeast and let your loaf rise at summer temp it could start smelling like alcohol.

>>16416514
It does.
Some popular no-knead pizza dough recipes use a lot of yeast and end up smelling like a beer by the end of it.

>>16416479
What's the difference in crumb between a no-knead bread and a kneaded bread that have the same hydration level and baking procedure?

>>16413580
>how is it that wet bread dough can be left out at room temperature, in the summer no less, and not develop some toxic shit that gives you food poisoning?
anything you don't understand must be magic eh OP?

>>16413580
Like brewing beer, you really aren't going to get anything that will hurt you unless you do something really dumb. It will get bacteria and wild yeast landing on it but the yeast you added would have enough of a headstart to retard the wild growth. Sour dough is sour because of bacteria, shits good for you.

For 400-500g of flour for the bread, take extra 20-30g of flour and 80-125g of water, cook it to a pudding-like consistency, let it cool, add it to the initial knead.
Ideally spelt, but it should work with any. Adjust water according to the flour's behavior.

>>16413594
cultural appropriation is good and just. take what's worth keeping, and throw out the rest.

Oh yeah, OP here.

It came out pretty good even though I barely shaped it and didn't do all the dutch oven shit. The crust was still nicer than I expected and the texture was soft with a nice chew. I used it to dip in olive oil/vinegar, it was nice. I'll probably be doing this more often, I just hope it also works well with 100% whole grain bread which is what I usually like to bake with (used white flour this time because it's all I had)

>>16416382
I make similar whole wheat bread and it's slightly denser than a white flour loaf but not incredibly dense. It's probably because that recipe has you deflate the dough and then immediately bake, you'll want it to rise a bit after shaping before it goes into the oven.

I let my dough rise for 12~ hours, fold it to deflate and shape it on the baking sheet, then let it rise one more hour before baking. Always comes out with a great texture. The long rising time leads to better oven spring and it always comes out better than the recipes I tried which required kneading. Just have to let it rise one more hour after shaping before it goes into the oven.

I also use a lot less yeast than what that recipe calls for though, not sure if that could be the reason why yours came out dense. It says you need 3/4 tsp of yeast but I only use about 1/8 tsp for that amount of flour.

>no knead
what's wrong with kneading
are y'all really that lazy?
if you really want subpar bread just go to the store and buy it, you don't have to make it yourself

Brought no-knead bread to a potluck once. A girl complimented me on it and we ended up getting drunk and making out.

>>16419269
Kneading is a messy pain in the ass

>>16419131
Why would using more yeast make bread denser? The yeast is a leavener

>>16419899
Too much yeast means it rises faster which can lead to the dough collapsing, and then it won't be able to hold air bubbles as it ruins the gluten formation.

>>16419956
I'm not sure if too much yeast is my problem. See pic related. I just baked a loaf this morning with double the yeast content -- from 0.75 tsp, as given in the recipe, to 1.50 tsp. See pic related. You see how dense the crumb is with the recipe version (0.75 tsp), in comparison to what the crumb should look like (reference image from the website, right). The 1.5 tsp version of the recipe (middle) looks much closer to the right than left. The middle crumb looks fused in places because I fucked up and cut into the bread too early, and the oven was a bit cooler than it should have been. But I'm wondering how I could get the crumb even lighter than that? Add more water to up the hydration ratio?

>>16420083
Hmm. Even the right one looks fairly dense compared to mine. I've tried to make yeast leavened pancakes before and they kind of end up with a texture like that. So I still think it's probably that there's no time for it to rise between shaping and baking, I don't think you can get enough oven spring for it to go from fully deflated to completely risen. Try doing what I said where you let the dough rise, shape it, and then let it rise for one more hour before baking.

Can go down the checklist of other common issues just to make sure it's not something else though. You're properly measuring the flour where you spoon it into the measuring cup and then level it off, making sure to not compress it? Is the dough actually doubled in size after the initial rise? The recipe uses room temperature water but I've never really seen that before, all the recipes I've used call for water that's slightly warmer than body temp. That's going to make the yeast take a lot longer to start working. And you're not refrigerating the dough, or is your kitchen much colder than 70F? That recipe should be about 100% hydration if the flour is measured properly which is what I use, so I don't think you need to increase that.

>>16420132
In the left image, I shaped it and put it on the parchment as soon as I turned the oven on to preheat. Since I was preheating a massive dutch oven along with it, that process took around 40 minutes, during which the dough was sitting on the parchment getting that quick 2nd rise. I forgot to do it for the middle picture, but given how it didn't work in the left, I don't think it would have helped in the middle.
Some other things I already made sure to take care of
>fluffing the flour prior to scooping, and leveling off the measurements with a knife instead of packing the flour
>only letting the yeast and salt come into direct contact immediately before mixing with the water
>using lukewarm water instead of ice cold or hot water
>letting the dough rest overnight at room temperature instead of in the fridge
The middle pic definitely rose by 2x when I checked in on it in the morning. One of the reasons why I thought I might need to add more yeast is that the left pic (recipe yeast content) didn't rise as much as I thought it would overnight.
The only thing I can possibly think of is that I covered the dough with a damp towel instead of plastic wrap while it rose, but I've seen tons of people do that so I don't see why that would make a difference.

>>16420150
Strange. I usually eat my bread with salty cheese or something, so I don't put salt into the dough. I'm not sure if that would explain why I can use so much less yeast and get it to fully rise in that amount of time. But if the dough doubled in size in 12~ hours there must be another reason why it still came out so dense.

Are you using all of the 2 cups of water for the 4 cups of flour? Is your dough more like a batter that's easy to mix with the spoon at first or do you have to actually use your hands to get everything incorporated?

>>16420235
Salt is integral to a sturdy structure that can trap a lot of air
Salt also retards the yeast (which is important for flavour)
Basically fuck you for assuming you can just leave it out

>>16413580
>commercial yeast
>no knead bread
>leaving at room temperature
>for 15 hours
yeah, I don't think this is gonna go well...

>>16420235
>I don't put salt into the dough

>>16418960
post pics so we can laugh at you and then smirk in some questionable advice

>>16420243
Slow rises help with proper gluten formation, I don't have any issue with the texture. Don't need to retard the yeast since I use such a small amount at the start anyway. I always see someone get upset when I mention this, but it's just too salty if I add salt to the bread and then eat it with salty cheese. And I kind of like the really mild sweetness that bread can have when there's no salt added to it. I'm not sure why you would push someone to do something that tastes worse to them just because someone might consider it "wrong".

>>16420235
I use 2 cups of water to 4 cups of yeast. Provided that I mix the dough intelligently, pouring small quantities of the dry ingredients to a bowl of the wet, there's an initial period of dryness while there's still flour out of contact with the water. But it quickly becomes borderline too sticky to handle by hand. I usually work the last portion of dry dough in by hand anyway because I've found it goes faster than stirring it in with a spoon.
I'm not sure what is going wrong. It has been colder here since we've had a huge cold front all week, but it's summertime so "cold" is still nighttime lows in the low 70s and high 60s F.
I think what I'm going to do is double the amount of time I let it sit in a ball before baking. A full 2 hour second rise, following the 12-14 hour first rise that constitutes me letting it rest, covered, overnight.

>>16420275
>double the amount of time I let it sit in a ball before baking
Yeah I was going to suggest that. And ask if you have trouble with any other baking recipes using that yeast. 1.5 tsp of yeast is almost enough to leaven that amount of dough within an hour or two, and that's not even factoring in that high hydration whole wheat doughs typically rise faster.

>only letting the yeast and salt come into direct contact immediately before mixing with the water
Also wanted to ask if by this you mean you're mixing the yeast and salt with the water, then adding that to the flour? The salt could potentially kill some of the yeast that way.

>>16420338
I'm using the active dry yeast that comes in the individual packets, stored at room temperature. I don't normally use that, I use the stuff that comes in jars. And I mean that I mix the yeast and flour into two different regions of the pile of flour, then mix the whole pile together, then immediately start adding it to the water.

>>16413594
>bread is cultural appropriation
what the fuck am I reading

>>16420415
Sounds like you're pretty much doing everything right then, so maybe that 2 hour rise is just what it needs.

But I also noticed that in that recipe link, the dough after mixing looks a lot drier than mine even though it should be at the same hydration. Right after mixing mine it's really just like a spreadable batter, almost like peanut butter. I don't even have to use my hands to get everything evenly mixed. It's only after the 12 hour rise that I can handle it but it's still soft enough that I barely have to work to shape it into the loaf. But I live in a more humid area, so perhaps if there's less humidity where you live you do need to add a bit more water if the flour is drier. I'd still just give the 2 hour rise a try first and then if there's still a problem try adding maybe an extra 1/4 cup of water next time.

>>16413683
shhh don't talk basic biology you'll scare him

>>16413580
The yeast consume the sugars in the flour and release co2 and alcohol, that's fermentation. It's the alcohol. Also, get a scale

>>16419269
Really its best if you're making a lot of bread at once.
Each loaf tends to take 15-30 min to knead out depending on a lot of factors in my experience. If you're doing several loaves of bread at once, thats going to get either tiring, boring, or just take up too much time.

>>16421117
but even a two peanut brainer knows you're supposed to knead a whole batch together and only separate the loafs when reading to move to the proofing pan

>>16418425
why?