/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>15043609
Ruinart

Is it gay that I enjoyed Moet Rose Brut a lot?
It wasn't sweet at all but had a sort of cranberry taste which I thought was cool.
I had Veuve Cliquot the same night and it was good, but wasn't quite tasty enough to warrant 50 dollars IMO. But I would spend that much money again on either of the Moets I tried.

Taittenger
Billecart-Salmon Rose
Perriet Jouet
Feuillatte Palmes D'Or

>>15043609
Prosecco

I'll see you in FUCKING court, libshits

>>15043609
For me? The champagne of beers.

>>15043609
I like Billecart-Salmon Brut. It is better than both Cliquot and Moet and Chandon at the $50 price point in my opinion.

>>15044496
do you prefer Cliquot or Moet?

For me, it is Henkell Trocken, the best champagne.

Bump

For me

>>15043833
at least choose spumante metodo classico, prosecco is an unpretentious sparkling wine that can't really compete with champagne

Tattinger, I once purchased a double Magnum of it for a family party and it was demolished in about 35 seconds. Way too easy for me to drink

>>15043609
Piper heidsieck

>>15043618
Rose champagne is pretty patrician if I do say so myself. Try as much as you can.

>>15045504
It was way better than I was expecting.
I know people shit on Moet because it's popular, but it was very good.

>>15043609
Miller high life

Cremant, anyone? What's your favorite?

>>15043609
I've had some Veuve at a christmas party for a hotel I worked at before and it was pretty good, but beyond that I'm really not much of a champagne drinker. However after watching James May's wine show I think I'd like to actually travel to France some day and try some of the small local makers in Champagne that don't really export. Maybe when I'm middle aged and can afford to run an old Jag.

>>15043609
Bollinger for normal Imperial
Veuve Cliquot when I'm partying
Taittinger vintage when celebrating
Taittinger Imperial for aperitif
Moët and Perrier Jouet never

are you supposed to drink a whole bottle of champagne while it's still sparkling or is it acceptable to let it get flat? (Like the day after you opened it?)

>>15047228
The real trick to avoid leftover champagne from yesterday is to open the bottle for breakfast on a cozy free day. Plan your meals around finishing that bottle.

>>15043609
cheap, drink it fast, embarass yourself at your friends wedding tier

>>15047228
Champagne is traditionally for celebrations, parties and other special occasions so the general theory is you don't open it unless you're going to finish it. Letting it go flat is a waste of money because then it's just a blended white wine with a funky aftertaste from the double fermentation. If you just want a little champagne now and then invest in some mini bottles.

>>15047515
>mini bottle
>investment
lol

>>15047228
>not finishing a bottle of champagne
It's basically 4 drinks total

Wine Industry veteran of 9+ years here with a harvest in champagne under my belt, feel free to ask me anything. I don't work with the big house champagnes but moreso the smaller, grower-champagnes (Recoltant Manipulant). Please don't ask me about Veuve Cliquot. It's fine, extremely over priced considering the quality and farming, and is just a big marketing gimmick. Of the big houses, I like Roederer (decent farming), Taittinger (good people), and Bollinger. I dated an heiress to a small Champagne house for 4 months in Reims, but she wasn't ready for a real relationship. I've spent weeks visiting vineyards, and personally know some of the cool small producers as well as best towns to visit in the region of Champagne.

Anyways, not trying to be a dick about it but if you have any questions, feel free to ask me.

>>15047694
>but she wasn't ready for a real relationship
Translation: she was just slumming it for a summer to piss off her parents.

>>15047705
Pretty much. She had been in a long relationship with a dude for like 3+ years who was kind of a dick, and met me, an American, and liked me but then 3-4 months in figured out it wasn't time. Oh well, those tits were fucking nice and pouring champagne on my face while having sex was a memory I wont forget.

>>15045235
>spumante metodo classico, prosecco
Shitaly

>>15043609
Any one served to me, as long it's sparkling.
Who can honestly taste any difference?

>>15043609
I get my champagne unlabeled and under the table to circumvent production quotas for 7€ a bottle. It's delicious.

>>15047730
I want a French girl to sit on my face

>>15047744
I'm not a wine autist who sniffs glasses 30 times but I can definitely tell the difference between Champagnes

I bought the meme
gonna open it if anything good ever happens to me

>>15047763
I recommend it mon frère

>>15047838
This is a good wine. Over-priced and slightly meme-y, sure but its well made. 2002 a decent year for it as well. I honestly wouldn't wait too much longer to drink it unless you like your champagnes to get really rich/savory/oxidative and with less bubbles. Store it well, in a cool, dark place, on its side.

Personally, I'd drink it this new years to celebrate the end of 2020 with some fried chicken and caviar.

>>15047790
Yeah, you do need to be a prep school brat to spot the difference between a glass of Bollinger and a glass of Korbel.

>>15047857
*don't need to be

>>15047851
I'm actually a collectorfag, everything I've read has said it's just now entering it's drinking window. I had it once before at a friend's wedding, but they waited until the end to pop it so I was already toasted.

I'll probably pick up the 1996 too since that's the other one everyone loses their shit over.

Can ye taste some bad champagne or great german sekt?
What is better?

>>15043791
good post

>>15047857
I think where it may be harder to tell the difference is between the 50 dollar NVs and the 150 dollar vintages.
And also they do have varying flavors due to different grape blends and production processes. I have to imagine a blanc de blanc tastes much different from a pinot noir heavy blend.

>>15044942
It's not a champagne

>>15047861
Assuming proper storage and assuming you like the style of aged Champagne, it's entering its drinking window for sure. Not every one does, but if you're a collector you know what you like, so you don't need me to tell you when to drink it. What else do you have in your collection? Any small growers?

>>15048092
I have a few 2008, nv, and vp egly-ouriets and another RM also from les creyers of Le Mesnil Sur Oger's inaugural wine too. Unfortunately not a whole lot directly available in my market, mostly have to buy online

was supposed to go to champagne this year but covid fucked everything up

I wish someone would do a power ranking of the bigger houses

>>15048290
Nice picks there. Egly Ouriet is good and solidly respected in the industry as a great workhorse and consistently delicious line. Their 08 is actually killer. I haven't tried that Launois but I like their stuff. Its hard to find here in California too, I forget who imports it. Where are you located?

If you like Le Mesnil and wines from the CdBlancs I highly recommend you check out wines from Pertois Morisot, Aurelien Suenen, Pascal Agrapart, and of course Pierre Peters, if you haven't already. I would skip Krug, personally, unless you can get a good price on Clos du Mesnil. Both Jacques and Anselme Selosse are industry-meme tier wines (dick measuring contest if you can get them, visit them), but they are undeniably good wines.

You might like Pierre Gimmonet's wines as well in Cuis.

are blanc de noirs any good?

>>15048436
Central Texas, the import market is very consolidated but there are a few websites that I like and can ship to me that support small growers

Oddly enough, I've had several vintage krugs but I think I prefer their grand cuvee.

I've added all of those to my list, but it looks like only Agrapart is available and able to ship to texas (go figure). Appreciate the recommendations. Franck Bonville is another that I was impressed with, but it is on the riper/creamier side of the spectrum

>>15048702
Nice. Texas is definitely opening up market-wise, but shipping there is kind of a bitch still from out of state. I used to run a wine shop in CA and we would ship there but it was a dice-roll. I'll ask my bud at the wine shop if we still ship there if you're interested in some other small grower stuff.

Krug's Grande Cuvee is delicious, and again, everyone should drink it if its available, but I just have way too many RM champagne's i'd rather buy and spend my money on than Krug.

Glad to make recs, Agrapart is great but really racy and taut, I would age it for a few years at least if you're getting some of the younger cuvees.

You might also like Champagne Doyard in the CdBlancs. Some other good non-Cote-de-Blancs wines I'd recommend are Champagne Huré Freres, Raphael Bereche, Marie Courtin, R.H. Coutier, and A. Margaine.

>>15048443
Absolutely. If you like the style.

I like laurent perrier. Not tasted enough champagne side by side to compare the differences but I have good memories from all the times I've drank it.

I've bought 2 bottles of champagne from Lidl this week, and have 2bottles of tattinger in the rack. But desu if I am going to spend £30+ on a bottle of wine I will be going for port.

>>15048751
>if you like the style
What is the style like?

>tfw most liquor stores by me only carry Moet and Cliquot
As far as the two go though, would it be fair to say that Moet Imperial Brut is more fruit forward and Veuve Cliquot Brut is more vinous?

>>15048820
Well since its typically based on Pinot Noir or Pinot Meunier, or both, you'll get often darker fruit flavors. Cherry, blackberry, blood orange, blueberry, etc., combined with toasty richness. There's sometimes more body to the wines, though there are some very full bodied Blanc des Blancs as well (100% Chardonnay or otherwise).

I'm speaking very generally here, but the soils where Pinot and Meunier are more predominantly grown than chardonnay (the Montagne de Reims, Vallee de la Marne, and the Cote de Bar) feature chalk/limestone that has a bit more moisture retention (this is due to higher clay content) and as such the wines tend to have a bit more body and power. All that said, Chardonnay is grown in those regions as well.

Blanc des Noirs you'll also feel more skin tannin that comes from the red grapes (though of course the juice is clear/white), and these are wines that can actually pair really well with meats. I fucking love pork and blanc de noirs. 100% Meunier-based BdN is interesting stuff, and is a bit polarizing in Champagne, with some of the old-school folks thinking its not good enough for 100% and should be used for blending, but mostly now-a-days everyone recognizes its potential. You get a decent amount of skin tannin, spice, wildness, and herby complexity from Meunier that you don't get from Pinot Noir in 100% BdN. It's fun. Laherte Freres makes a Rose from 100% Meunier that is pretty fun and intense.

>>15048702
I also forgot to mention Françoise Bedel, her wines are INSANELY delicious.

>>15048973
I usually would reverse the two, with the Veuve being more fruity and Moet a bit more on the acid. I don't like Moet much (Moet-Hennesey/LVMH are kind of fucking bad people in Champagne, though they own huge amounts of it). Get Veuve over Moet.

>>15049027
is this English Sparkling Wine any good? Or is it all just hype and marketing?

>>15049027
why are the Moet folks bad? I mean it ain't surprising, but I'd like to know exactly how.

>>15047694
Whats your opinion of natural wines/orange wine?

>>15049027
I really wanna try a BdB from Arbane
Instead of buying a bottle of Dom for my 26th, I'm probably gonna pick up a few "unusual" bottles like that.

>>15049027
Veuve reminds me of brandy a little bit, with Moet tasting more citrusy

>>15049027
tannins come from the grape skins even though they don't include the skins?

I only drink fruit punch.

>>15049128
There are some really good English sparkling wines coming out. I've been consistently impressed by them, though the problem is price. Here in California, at 40-55 dollars you're competing with decent Champagne. That said, the quality of English sparkling is going up and up, especially with climate changes providing differences in number of sunny growing days, but more than anything its growers understanding their terroirs better.

>>15049206
They're essentially the walmart of Champagne. Buying up every little business they can, crushing competition, churning out often times shit "products", spending billions on marketing rather than caring for the land or soil, and worst of all essentially trying to control/own the "Champagne" brand as a whole. They own the Dom Perignon abbey in Hautvillers, and the grounds, and while they're restoring it, they've converted it from a public space to a private "fly-in" space where celebrities come get the royal treatment by LVMH instead of it being accessible for the rest of the people. They don't farm well, and they were in part responsible for all the trash in the vineyards of Champagne (look it up if you're not aware that almost EVERY vineyard in Champagne, especially the Cote des Blancs [ largely owned by LVMH ], was covered in garbage from Paris as part of a dumping program that was supposed to help quality but only raised yields and trashed the quality. Its a nightmare, and was a huge scandal.

>>15049255
That's kind of for a different thread, but there's awesome natural wines and totally garbage meme-tier hipster fashion shit that are worse than the stuff I make in my garage. Anyone can call themselves natural wine.

Orange wines are awesome and everyone should learn more about them as they represent some of the world's most ancient wine styles. They're not for everyone palate wise but some are incredible and super fun to pair with food. Look for ones from the Republic of Georgia (aged in qevri) or Italy.

>>15049299
Those are really hard to find. Definitely don't buy any Dom Perignon (again it's all owned by LVMH/Moet). They make a shit load of it and never tell anyone where the grapes come from, and its really overpriced. I have had a few champagnes that feature Arbanne, but not 100%. I've had some 100% Pinot Blanc champagnes that were INCREDIBLE. Pierre Gerbais makes one or two, and you should definitely find them.

Check out these two wines that blend all 7 champagne varieties and they're incredible wines to splurge on, I personally vouch for both:
Laherte Freres "Les 7"
https://polanerselections.com/producer/laherte-freres#58580

Benoit Lahaye "Jardin de la Grosse Pierre"
https://vosselections.com/product/le-jardin-de-grosse-pierre/

>>15049309
I don't drink either regularly, and I'd say if you can avoid it, do the same, though they're not the worst thing to drink. If you only have big houses, grab Roederer, Bollinger, Taittinger, Ruinart. Avoid Nicolas Feuillatte, the wines are shit and so is the farming.

>>15049319
Tannins come from skins, stems, and seeds, and even though you separate them from the juice, you still get perceptible amounts. I find north facing vineyard Pinot and Meunier in Champagne give more tannin than south facing (for example Bouzy, Ay, etc).

>>15044474
>holy fucking based/just bought a 12 pack tonight
brilliant post anon

>>15050493
>Benoit Lahaye "Jardin de la Grosse Pierre"
I've found a NV and vintage version of this one--from the description, it appears as if it was NV until 2009, unless I'm retarded or these online shops are mislabeling their wines
https://www.publicprinceton.com/wines/Benoit-Lahaye-Le-Jardin-de-la-Grosse-Pierre-w2621789gy

>>15050618
It was blended into his other wines until 2009 at which point he said "holy fuck this makes incredible wine all on its own" which it does. It's a single parcel/vineyard Champagne, from a vineyard called Jardin de Gross Pierre (Garden of the Big Stone). It's most likely labeled as NV due to how he makes it and declares it (doesn't declare it as a Vintage Champagne). It's most likely blended with some reserve wine from the vineyard from past vintages. In Champagne we mostly talk about "base vintage" not single vintage, because Champagne is a culture of blending where you blend past vintages with current vintage. $155 is an OK price for this wine, I've seen it around 130-140 here in CA.

It's non-dosage, meaning 0g added sugar, meaning its going to be very dry. That said, you could age it for years as a result. I would want to know the disgorgement date on the particular bottle I'm buying if I'm dropping $155.

>>15043609
The kind from Italy.

>>15047228
You want a rubber wine stopper. It'll still be good the next day.

>>15050493
I've had a taste of a 100% Arbanne Champagne, it's made by Moutard. Was honestly the most mineral wine I have ever had, it was stunning.

Also please be my boyfriend.

>>15043618
>>15045504
>>15045578
From what I've heard from Champagne specialists is that (even for growers) pink Champagne is a bit of a meme made for image rather than taste. That being said they did mention that there are some really good ones.

>>15047228
I decant some really nice Champagnes because they're wines first and sparkling wines second. It benefits from a higher temperature and some aeration like high quality still Chardonnay, for example.

Most Champagne that people buy doesn't benefit from this though.

>>15043791
pleb

>>15050493
Ah so that's who "Nicky Foo" is
Also, it's funny to me (as someone already into beer) how massively different the beer and wine crowds are.

>>15051806
I honestly think Moet Rose is delicious.
It has a cranberry quality to it while still being dry.

>>15050734
>>15051815
Actually, the rubber ones aren't really ideal for champagne, as they can let out a fair amount of CO2. Check out pic related for what the industry standard for best stopper is. This shit will keep a bottle bubbly for two days even if its half full, typically. That said, I don't mind good flat champagne, but only if its good quality wine first. Decanting Champagne makes sense for older champagne, or for Champagnes that are SUPER vinous, or super high in atmospheres (pressure/carbonation). But 99% of the time you shouldn't need to decant, you're right.

>>15051802
I knew there were a few out there, I've had some of the Moutard wines, decent stuff for sure, but not the 100% Arbanne. Where did you have it? Also, sorry I'll be your boyfriend only if you're une femme :(

>>15051806
Not at all the case. Often the Rosé Brut is more expensive than the flagship NV Brut because it's more difficult to make properly and consistently. Rosés are delicious, fun to drink, and well respected in Champagne. Historically (pre 1900's), Champagne was a non-sparkling (still) light red/rose wine. You see it in old paintings all the time, since the royalty drank it. The color would be something like oeil de perdrix (partridge's eye) which is kind of a rosy salmon color.

>>15052659
Champagne was still in the 1800s?
That's crazy, the bubbles are some of the most important quality to me

Im a big fan of Pisson la Fart

>>15052638
I'm hugely into beer as well (I brew my own for fun), and I love seeing how different the cultures are. I've spent weeks in Champagne going to frilly high-society tastings in gilded Louis XIV-styled rooms with caviar and all that bullshit, and I've hung out in dingy little brewpubs with nasty bathrooms and alcoholics facedown in their free bowl of popcorn and I have to say that both are equally as fun to experience. The thing in common is that alcohol's ideal relationship to humans is that of bringing people together. What beer needs to get better as is the food aspect, I don't get why they make fun of wine people for pairing food with wine so adamantly and "intellectually" when beer pairs so well with food as well in such complex ways. I wish wine people would loosen up a bit and relax (like beer folks) and I wish beer folks would get a little more focused/serious on ingredients, regional specificity, and food pairing and have a little more confidence in what they're worth as a culture.

>>15052659
Forgot to post the pic of the good champagne stopper.

>>15052668
Yeah. The history of it is wild. They like to credit Dom Perignon with discovering the bubbles, its a marketing thing with little proof that he actually was the first. Dom Perignon and his abbey are owned by LVMoet Hennessey. Get the idea of why I don't like them? They want to own and change the history to suit their brand.

>>15052690
You're such a fag

>>15052700
And Moet is damn near synonymous with Champagne to the average consumer in the US. That/Dom and Cliquot are the only Champagnes you can count on every liquor store having.
Rappers have been shouting it out for years and that's honestly where I heard of it first.
The funny thing is that Roederer was apparently racist about hip hop shouting out Cristal, while Moet (smartly) embraced it.

>>15052690
Something that's good about Champagne and wine (especially white wine) is that girls love that shit.
Girls hate beer usually (other than the most flavorless shit) but pour some Champagne for her and she'll drop those drawers

>>15052716
on the other hand, Roederer still produces really great wines while Moet has moved into constellation-tier production of a mediocre product

>>15052690
Eh I kinda like that beer doesn't revolve around people sniffing their beers before every sip and taking half an hour to finish a glass.

>>15052723
The entry level Roederers are pretty good right?
That being said, I still think Moet is pretty good. It just tastes more non offensive which might be good if you're serving something to normies who won't appreciate a very vinous, bone dry, mushroom tasting Champagne.

>>15052739
Yeah, I like the entry level Roederers, they're not as apple-driven and the acid's a bit more harmonious.
Moet's for conspicuous consumption, same as every mega-brand. People will immediately recognize the amount of money you spent on it because everyone knows it. But if you're just going for normie-friendly, there are tons of cremant de bourgogne/loire/juras that outdrink Moet. Not to mention Franciacorta if your local store carries any.

>>15052755
Do nicer champagnes tend to be funkier or is that only with select styles?

>>15052701
cool story bro

>>15052716
Yeah exactly. They've done a great job, I agree, I cant argue with that fact. The Champenois are the masters of marketing in France's wine world. I've designed labels for wines to import from France and all of our best designers were based in Champagne.

>>15052720
While this may be true here, conveniently enough, its funny when this trope doesn't always follow. In some countries white wine is more for the men and red wine more for the women. Champagne is a great pick for any date though, so long as its not too shitty/sweet that it makes you feel like shit.

>>15052723
>>15052739
>>15052755
Yeah. Roederer's most basic shit is still pretty decent. It's a good call to get a Cremant de Bourgogne or Jura (or Alsace) as a Champagne replacement. Those are typically the closest in terms of variety and style. Cremant de Loire are awesome as well, but less Champagne-like due to often using Chenin Blanc/Cabernet Franc, etc., but depends, obviously.

>>15052728
I agree with you, and I'm not saying beer needs to go that route at all, I just think there's a balance that could be struck so that good beer producers can actually get the respect they deserve.

>>15052769
Completely depends dude. There are funky entry level ones and funky high end ones, and there are bone dry laser crisp entry level and high end ones. It all depends on the producer's intention.

>>15052776
Do you prefer funky or crisp?
While I obviously don't want it taste like apple soda, I do get turned off hearing tasting notes when people start talking about meat.
That reminds me of that nasty meat flavor that PBR has.

>>15052776
Middle aged American women drink plenty of red but for women in their 20s, I would go for the white.
Unless it's a very agreeable red like a Chianti paired with food.

>>15052789
Well, there's an infinite range of stuff inbetween funky and crisp, that wasn't to state that there's a binary either-or for the two. It can be funky and clean/crisp at the same time to be honest. That said, I kind of prefer Champagnes that have a bit more "precision" and less wild funky character to them, but I've had some crazy funky Champagne that was delicious and unlike anything else I've had from the region.

I don't really hear people talking about "meaty" tones with champagne very often, there are definitely savory aspects to wines though. Sometimes people call it minerality, sometimes they call it salinity (becoming a more popular term than minerality in some circles), sometimes they call it umami. I think it has more to do with yeast/protein interactions on our palate. Champagne has a lot of yeast-derived effects on its flavor and aromas due to the aging process where yeast begin to autolyse (break themselves down) and their protein guts spill out into the wine over time, giving it a rich, toasty, umami, dusty character.

I'll post a few pictures of vineyards in Champagne taken in April. April is a great time to go because there's no real leaves on the vines and you can see everyone's farming, which is essentially when you can see the "dirty laundry" getting aired out.

Here's a picture taken in Oiry (in the Cote des Blancs). On the left was a producer I was visiting. He works organically and sustainably, working to bring microbial and insect life back into the soils after generations of chemical mistreatment and nutrient/top soil depletion by "conventional" farming (on the right). 95% of Champagne looks like the vineyard on the right, and that's how Moet farms. Soils are hard chalky limestone clay, with a bedrock of kimmeridgian chalk a few feet below the top soil. This is a particularly cold site often affected by frost in the Spring.

These are some vines in Hautvillers, in the Vallee de la Marne, on the north side facing south/southwest. The river is the Marne. These are Pinot Noir vines. This producer farms sustainably as well, but isn't organic, though they don't use a lot of chemicals at all.

>>15052899
Oops, that's a picture of a vineyard that's going to be replanted, my bad, picked the wrong one. It'll be Pinot Noir this year though. These were taken in spring 2018.

This next photo is taken on the hill of Hautvillers that borders Cumieres. Cumieres is a cool village that has this amphitheatre-style aspect to many of the vineyards on the slope of the hill here. Mostly Pinot but there's Chardonnay and probably some Meunier in there as well.

This is a Pinot Noir vineyard in Ludes, a town on the north side of the Montagne de Reims sub-region of Champagne. It's facing north as well (north-south orientation), and the photo is aimed north-northwest. It's much cooler up here, (north facing gets less sun, obviously) and the wines on this side of the region are typically a bit more vinous, intense, and structured.

>>15052886
Do you think there will be a wider shift towards sustainable farming?
And how do you have insects while avoiding them ruining the grapes?

>>15052952
The shift has already begun. Roederer is shifting huge amounts of land to organic and biodynamic farming, for example. Consumers are demanding it more and more, and its becoming less expensive and controversial to do. Chemicals are expensive. Learning how to take care of your soils and vines without making them dependent on fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, etc., is a skill, and folks did it before the 50's 60's when these agro-chemical businesses were developed and lobbying hard to get their ways of farming as the "standard".

Not all insects are bad! Some are needed to maintain a healthy ecosystem in the vines, and eat the bugs that eat the leaves/grapes/roots, whatever. For a long time the idea that any bug is a bad bug was the norm, but now its not the case. We can see that vineyards are healthier with a normalized insect population. In the picture you referenced, the vineyard on the right was dead silent if you stood in it. On the left, flies, bees, ladybugs, spiders, all natural inhabitants of a healthy space, keeping each one in check. It sounds like hippie bullshit but its honestly true.

>>15053083
It sure looks a hell of a lot better.
The one on the right looks like a desert.
I hope all the houses move in that direction. Euros are really into hippie stuff so maybe the demand over there is even greater.

>>15053083
Also, do a lot of people drink Moet and Cliquot even in France?

>>15053094
It's an incredible difference. Champagne is like printing money out of the ground, so the vineyard on the right produces about 2-3x as many grapes as the vineyard on the left, however the quality is much worse. Its a money thing though, when you sell to someone its by weight, not quality, typically.

>>15053177
I don't see anyone ever drinking Veuve Cliquot in France with some exceptions for the higher end stuff from them, like La Grande Dame which is incredibly good stuff, but this is more due to the fact I mostly hang out with wine nerdy people in France and Veuve Cliquot is more entry level stuff. People do drink it, obviously. Same with Moet, but these brands are extremely successful in export, not domestic, at the moment.

>>15053214
But the markup on champagne is so high already, that you would think the sustainable farming could easily be accounted for
Kind of like how the minimum wage is 15 dollars in much of the US now, but it hasn't caused McDonald's to get much more expensive.

I prefer champagne with more toast and brioche notes than green apple or citrus, although some fruit is obviously good. Any recommendations?

>>15054588
I wonder how grapes can even produce toast flavor

>>15054588
what's your price range? Toast/brioche typically comes from bottle age and an extended period of time on the lees

My favorite toasty champagne is J Lassalle Preference, but I haven't seen it on the shelf in a long time

>>15054617
What are your favorite sub 100 dollar bottles of Champagne?

>>15054617
I'm not very rich but for a special occasion I'd spend 100 or so. I usually buy things around 30$

>>15054630
J Lassalle Preference is ~50-60, or it was a few years ago. Fantastic wine for the money, I used to buy it by the case. You may be able to order it online, but it's only in certain markets because smaller producer.
Georges Vesselle vintage 2002/2004 are great, I think around 80 or 90
If you're willing to go slightly above 100, Piper Heidseik Rare can be had around 120-150 and has tons of rich brioche / roasted nut / cooked apple qualities. Would always get it instead of dom if given the choice.

>>15054679
Thanks man I'll check those out

>>15043609
This crap

>>15054679
In general or are you just referring to toasty ones?
I appreciate all different flavors.

>>15054679
I think I might get the Piper for my birthday
What's the best champagne you've ever had, and what did you like about it?

What is it about Champagne that makes most people like it on their first try, as opposed to still wine which is more of an acquired taste?

>>15044474
>>15045716
>>15050494

bump

>>15043609
a cremant du jura

Whats the best demi-sec Champagne? I want to crush pussy, but bitches like sweet shit. Also Im gay if that helps.

>>15055584
If I'm not mistaken, Demi-Secs are usually just the flagship Brut non-vintage of the house but with more sugar
So just go with whatever House you like

>>15054769
the 2008 Egly Ouriet is genuinely one of the best liquids ever put into a bottle, just crazily expressive, tight and firm acid, long, long finish. black and white fruits, toast, nuts, white flowers, chalk, carmelized lemon, the whole 9 yards. I'm still sitting on a few bottles because there's still room for growth and the acid still dominates. I got 3 bottles at 240 bucks a pop before it got rated and it feels like I got away with something.

>>15054734
Egly-ouriet then, all of them, they're all fantastic. The VP if you're in the mood to drop ~100, the vintage if you're looking to drop more.
If you like high-acid, Lanson BdB and Brut Cuvee are nice and you can get their 2002 vintage for a lot less than most other 2002s.

>>15054813
crisp and carbonated, the difference in sugar level from wine compared to juice/soda is made less apparent by the presence of bubbles. The same reason most people like or feel neutral on flavored sparkling water but if you gave them flavored sparkling water that had gone flat, most of them would hate it.

>>15055768
The bubbles really make you want to go back for another sip. Especially when the bubble, acid, flavor, etc. balance is just right.
I know you hate LVMH but what's funny is that Moet is rated relatively very high on Vivino, higher than the flagship NVs of most other houses. Dom is rated higher than Cristal. I wonder if this is because normies are influenced by the marketing or if these Champs are actually that good.

>>15055845
I'm not champagne-sama, but I do hate LVMH

The problem with vivino is norm-core wines like Austin Hope and Belle Glos don't get weighted for the fact that their wines are jammy and without structure. People who only drink Moet and Veuve will indeed think they are the two best champagnes. Vivino themselves have no incentive to add a weighted/expert differentiator like metacritic because it helps them move product, and I'm pretty sure they just get a percentage cut of their partners who sell through them and don't hold any inventory.

>>15043613
Mon negre.

>>15056160
I think it could also work like this: if you've never had real Champagne and just had Andre or even Korbel, a bottle of Moet would blow your mind.
The people seeking out grower champagnes or the lesser known big houses are more experienced in wine/champ and will be a little harsher with reviews even if they really dig the champ. Like an excellent but not mind blowing (such as maybe a Pol Roger NV for instance) will get a 4 star from them.

what are the best bottles 45 USD and under?

>>15056497
depends on where you live because of liquor/importer taxes and what store chains are near you
some of the costco-only champagnes are very nice for the money. Not the kirkland brand specifically, but the other ones too.

>>15056654
wait, Costco has actual Champagne?

>>15056660
yes, any champagne with the letters MA on the label somewhere (it'll ususally be hidden on the back) is a store-brand that's made to the specification of the store ordering it. These are usually sourced from cooperatives unless it's a giant business like costco.

They sell one around winter every year that comes in a weird bell-bottle that's around 20 dollars and is great for the money.

let me know about some affordable grower champagnes that I could realistically get in New York

https://cluboenologique.com/story/tyson-stelzer-the-era-of-grower-champagnes-is-over/

This article (from June) claims that grower Champagnes will vastly dwindle in upcoming years. Is it true or sensationalist bullshit?

>>15043609
I just mix pinot grigio with soda water. It' basically the same thing.

>>15043609
>mfw OP wasn't a faggot and posted the best champagne right away

Bump

>>15054613
>>15054588
The grapes themselves don't produce the toasty flavor. That comes from malolactic fermentation, barrel toast, and yeast autolysis (self breakdown overtime) which results in lees (spent yeast cells). The toasty richness is a combination of all of these things plus aging (slow oxidation) on the lees.

>>15055584
Any one you can find. They're actually kind of hard to find since Americans "don't like sweet wine" (they do), so the market for demi-sec and moelleux/sec Champagne isn't large. I love sweet Champagne when its good. Honestly Veuve Cliquot White Label isn't horrible for this purpose, but call around at wine shops.

>>15055598
This is only the case for the bigger houses, some of the smaller grower houses specifically make a Demi-Sec not as an afterthought. A. Margaine in Villers Marmery is one I can think of. Should be able to find on West and East Coast of US.

>>15055768
Egly-Ouriet-Anon you're not wrong the 08 is extremely delicious. For another good Ambonnay house that's less known (and less expensive) check out R.H.Coutier. I also love everything from Andre Clouet in Bouzy.

>>15055845
Yeah that wasn't me but I do hate LVMH. Their wines can be rated high on Vivino and still meh. I used to do consulting work for Vivino back when they were getting started and honestly tons of their ratings are fucking bullshit/faked, especially the "professional" ratings on their daily deals.

>>15056160
Thanks for laying it out, you got it pretty much right with the way Vivino works. They take a cut from their retail partners for making the sale but they don't really hold any inventory, all that risk is on the retail partner in exchange for large-scale exposure. A daily deal can sell like 4-6 pallets (200-300 cs) in 24 hours.

>>15056236
This is the case. A lot of folks only ever know Veuve Cliquot, Moet, Taittinger, Piper, etc., maybe Dom once or something, but once you taste a decent big house like Roederer, Pol Roger, etc, they rate very high.

>>15043609
None. Every one i've tried gives me a killer headache.

>>15056497
>>15056654
This is such a tough question to answer without knowing where you live, as other anon said. Post a list and I'll be glad to make some recs. Unfortunately wine distribution isn't as uniform as beer/liquor in most states.

>>15056859
Check out Chambers Street Wines, they have an insanely good selection, and are well respected. Any of the Champagnes imported by Skurnik Wines are good (though Michael Skurnik is a bit of a dick). Most of the Champagnes imported by Kermit Lynch are quite good as well.

>>15057423
Bullshit. I've visited Champagne every year since 2016 and each year all the growers I'm talking to are doubling down on their brands, and the big houses are releasing more single-parcel, sustainably farmed releases than ever. There will be consolidation, however, which we are seeing in every aspect of the wine business. And the pandemic hasn't helped, but the demand is there. We're not going back to the days of only big houses in the good restaurants. People want diversity in their wines.

That said its tough times for France - USA wine markets especially, since retard in chief's trade tariff war that accomplished nothing tanked the import market for wines here and killed thousands of jobs.

>>15059037
I looked at at least 2 Demi Secs on medium sized houses' websites where the description was along the lines of "same as our brut but with added dosage"

>>15059037
I've never even seen Tattinger or Piper in real life. Obviously those are popular but the average liquor store in the US only has Moet, Cliquot, and Dom.

>>15059080
I would check out Billecarte-Salmon, Laurent-Perrier, or Lanson for some decent Demi-sec as well. Where are you located?

>>15059094
Yeah sometimes local liquor stores only stock what they get from their liquor distributor (usually Youngs Market and Southern/Henry Wine Group), Where are you located?

>>15059113
New York

>>15059113
Ironically, Moet's Demi Sec is actually considerably different from their Inperial Brut

>>15059116
Check out Flatiron Wines & Spirits, Brix, Chambers Street Wines, or Astor Wines. Those are all decent shops with great selections. Flatiron I know for a fact will have a good Champagne selection, they host a lot of Champagne growers each year and get some great allocations. They ship relatively inexpensively as well. I'm assuming you're in NYC but if you're upstate let me know as well as there are some good shops up there too. The best way honestly is just to call the shop and talk to someone/go in, and they'll guide you to some good stuff.

>>15059127
I haven't had the Moet Demi Sec in a long long time, so I honestly can't say I remember it. Personally, as much as I dislike Moet as people, if there's pretty much any Champagne in my glass I'm happy.

>>15059143
I'm on Long Island but I go to the city pretty often. Less so since Covid but I would not mind going at all.
Have you ever had a champagne that was actually awful?

>>15059163
I have had some pretty awful ones yeah. The worst ones I have are from big bulk brand ones that aren't the big houses and aren't the smaller houses. Its hard to describe, they're like the Malt-o-Meal versions of off-brand Champagnes. They look like cheap mass-market big house wines, but with names you don't think you've heard of. They're just cheap shitty grapes that were bought at co-ops or in bulk and turned into garbage wine by a company that just needs a brand. This is how I feel about Nicolas Feuillatte. Just the most basic history-less shit. They were started in the 70's. That said, I'd still drink it over a lot of other garbage wine out there.

Last one I bought was Moets Imperial Brut and it was kinda meh, really paying the champagne tax there.

>>15047492
patricians choise. Keeping a slight buzz going through the day with sparkling.

>>15059322
Any thoughts on Pol Couronne? I had it at a tasting in Reims and enjoyed it.

>>15059322
Is being historyless a bad thing necessarily? Aren't there a lot of newer houses releasing good champagnes?

Bump

Bump

>>15055845
vivino is mostly used by tasteless boomers - every shitty marlborough sauvignon gets 4+, every sweet overextracted garbage malbec does well etc

Really liked the bottle of Pol Roger I had. But I guess that might have also been because of the occasion.

>>15064245
Yeah like are Moet and Cliquot really better than almost every other house's flagship NV Brut? Piper, Pol, Drappier, etc. all score like 3.9 while Moet and Cliquot are 4.2

>>15059595
I've never had it. I'll keep an eye out for it though! What did you like about it?

>>15060408
No, you're right its not a bad thing. There are many new producers who are doing great things and making wonderful wines with small plots of land. The reason I used that term was to denote that some of these brands/labels are board-room marketing concoctions with no real thought for the farming/vision for quality other than making money. It is what it is, and the wines can be fine, but I just personally would rather drink something else, and find some of them downright awful.

>>15064640
This is why Vivino isn't always a great method for determining quality. Honestly the best way is to just taste on your own and take your own notes when you taste wines and keep a log. I don't really like trusting critics either because honestly they're all influenced by trends and gifts/perks/distributors/importers. Taste your own wines if you can.

>>15064251
Pol Roger is well respected in the business, and the wines are delicious. It is good of you to know that context can be pretty significant in a wine's enjoyment and despite what most people might think, that's totally OK. I think looking at wines in a vacuum and trying to be overly objective about quality is what kills the fun and magic of wine. Of course its just grape juice, of course you could break it down to just chemical components and analyze which ones are the combination that make the "best" wines. But why? There's so much history/art to wine and such a long tradition of it being a conduit for human connection so why not understand it as being influenced by the occasion?

Sorry for being a fag about it but this is often part of my answer to "what's the best wine".

BEST CK THREAD OF 2020

>>15047884
>>15051816
the duality of man

Cheurlin when I'm being cheapo
Veuve almost all other times, the Grand Dame cuvees are really good for rare occasions

>>15064912
Do you happen to like Piper-Heidseik Brut NV?

Perrier-Jouët

Do you prefer blanc de blanc or blanc de noirs?

>>15066179
I actually don't like the basic Piper-Heidsieck, I think Charles Heidsieck makes way better wines personally. The last NV Piper I had was tasting pretty bad. Their higher end stuff is alright though.

>>15066759
Kind of an apples an oranges question. I love both, they're different styles and I love seeing all the different ways they get made. It depends on what I'm eating/doing whatever to say I'd pick one over the other.