/ck/ - Food & Cooking

The soy isoflavones genistein and daidzein appear to stimulate existing breast cancer growth indicating risk in consuming soy products if a woman has breast cancer. (Annals of Pharmacotherapy 2001 Sep;35(9):118-21).

Don’t eat soy when you are pregnant ladies! Scientific research has shown that the developing male fetus which is exposed to soy phytoestrogens may suffer from higher susceptibility to prostate cancer later in life (Prostate 1994;24(2):67-78).

>>14405456
1. The data you presented seems to say that soy has anti-estrogenic effects, which is opposite of what the anti-soy people claim
2. Nutritional science is a shit tier field full of kooks, shills, and charlatans
3. 1994 is way to old to be a valuable reference in a rapidly changing field

A study of 12 men aged 18 years and older experienced a 19% drop in serum testosterone in only 28 days when supplemented with 56 grams of soy protein powder over that same time period (Prev 2007;16:829—33).

So far I'm seeing lots of bad stuff and hardly anything good about soy, and the good things apply to FERMENTED soy only
Is big soy real?

>>14405476
but now more people are buying soy stocks, back then people didn't have so much money invested into soy
now I think studies are LESS credible due to the financial situation.
studies dated around 2000 are good enough for me to really listen to.
Also you didn't provide any information that says how soy is healthy, you only insulted my resources, I want proof that soy is healthy and ideally its a pre-2008 study

>>14405476
soy has been shown to decrease test
>>14405477

I've heard a lot of vegetarians and vegans claim soy phytoestrogens don't act on our body, but i recently read this that makes me disagree with that

1978
Martin PM and others. Phytoestrogen interaction with estrogen receptors in human breast cancer cells. Endocrinology 1978 Nov;103(5):1860-7. Phytoestrogens “translocate the cytoplasmic estrogen receptor and bind to unfilled nuclear estrogen receptors in whole cells. Bound nuclear receptors are then processed in a manner similar to estradiol in a step, which rapidly decreases total cellular estrogen receptors. The phytoestrogens are also biologically active; they can markedly enhance tumor cell proliferation.”

>>14405488
I didn't say it was "healthy" whatever that means
If you are worried, then work on limiting your plastic exposure and don't take a job as a cashier who works at a place that uses thermal receipt paper. Those receipts are loaded with BPA, a molecule that has been repeatedly demonstrated to be an endocrine disruptor
And get the flame retardant out of your mattress

>>14405512
>1978

>>14405514
why not limit soy exposure when all these studies say soy chemicals are bad for you?
a lot of this shit is in our food chain, that isnt right

>>14405521
2009
Jefferson W and others. Oral exposure to genistin, the glycosylated form of genistein, during neonatal life adversely affects the female reproductive system. Environmental Health Perspective 2009 Dec;117(12):1883-9. When female newborns are exposed genistin, (the glycosylated form of genistein), it can cause harm to the reproductive system. This harm took the form of “delayed vaginal opening… abnormal estrous cycles, decreased fertility, and delayed parturition.”

>>14405521
2006
Milerova J and others. Actual levels of soy phytoestrogens in children correlate with thyroid laboratory parameters. Clin Chem Lab Med 2006;44(2):171-4. Small differences in the amount of soy phytoestrogen consumed had moderately varying negative effects on the function of the thyroid gland.

>>14405477
FTA
>Serum LH concentrations decreased during the 4-week use of soy protein powder then increased within 2 weeks after we stopped the soy protein powder, but the changes did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.20)
P = 0.20 is shit. And this study, conducted on a tiny number of subjects, is looking at soy supplements for athletes, bodybuilders etc., and not casual soy consumption
Soy supplements, like whey supplements, or any supplement, often fuck you up
And they way that protein is extracted can be nasty, since organic solvents can be used

>>14405456
SOY DOES NOT FEMINIZE MEN OR CAUSE CANCER LIKE THAT FAULTY STUDY SUGGESTS. CITING A STUDY FROM 1994 IS THE FIRST ISSUE.

>>14405565
these studies are on soy food, either normal or above average soy food consumption (vegans/soyboy fall into this category)

2008
Chavarro J and others. Soy food and isoflavone intake in relation to semen quality parameters among men from an infertility clinic. Human Reproduction 2008, Vol. 23. No. 10, 2584-90. Those men who consumed considerable amounts of soy food had lower sperm concentration. These findings stayed consistent with “age, abstinence time, body mass index, caffeine and alcohol intake and smoking.”

2009
Eustache F and others. Chronic dietary exposure to a low-dose mixture of genistein and vinclozolin modifies the reproductive axis, testis transcriptome, and fertility. Environmental Health Perspec 2009 Aug;117(8):1272-9. “Chronic exposure to a mixture of a dose of phytoestrogen equivalent to that in the human diet and a low dose… of a common anti-androgenic food contaminant may seriously affect the male reproductive tract and fertility.”

>>14405554
They omitted crucial data that showed why it wasn't the soy.

>>14405528
The only things that nutritional science can say for everyone is, don't get too fat or too skinny, and eat a varied diet
And I ask again, are you avoiding plastic, receipt paper, and flame retardant? Or are you just parroting the anti-soy stance popular on these boards?

>>14405585
2010
Ward H and others. Breast, colorectal, and prostate cancer risk in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition-Norfolk in relation to phytoestrogen intake derived from an improved database. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 2010 Feb;91(2):440-8. “Dietary phytoestrogens may contribute to the risk of colorectal cancer among women and prostate cancer among men.”

>>14405592
I avoid plastic and receipts and im pretty sure my mattress is some type of fancy organic, are flame retardant free mattresses readily available?

>>14405477
There's more to research than looking at the summarized results of one study
https://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/16/12/2795
>These data are inconsistent with the results of a meta-analysis recently completed by the authors of this letter. This inconsistency, as judged by Fig. 1 in the paper by Goodin et al. (1), may stem largely from the change that occurred in just one subject (SP #2)
>His baseline testosterone level was more than twice that of any other subject and ∼50% greater than the normal reference range as stated in the paper. Additionally, this subject experienced an ∼40% decrease in testosterone within just 4 weeks and a further 30% or so decrease during the 2-week post-soy consumption period, whereas the mean value for all other subjects increased during this 2-week period.

>>14405588
>2008
>Chavarro J and others
Asking limp dicked dudes to jerk off in a cup and then trusting them to report on their eating habits is not relevant
>2009
>Eustache F and others
This one is a lot more controlled, and "Centre d'Etude et de Conservation du Sperme Humain" made me laugh, but will take longer for me to read

>>14405612
so the high test male suffers more from soy products?
thats alarming and doesn't make me want soy at all

>>14405612
I know. It's like they only read the abstracts, and not carefully either

>>14405635
sperm concentration isn't measured by nut size, it counts the number of sperm in an equal measurement of semen. cmon, use your brain if you're going to try to get me to eat or trust or support this poison

The soy isoflavones genistein and daidzein appear to stimulate existing breast cancer growth indicating risk in consuming soy products if a woman has breast cancer. (Annals of Pharmacotherapy 2001 Sep;35(9):118-21).
>>14405585

im allergic to soy

>>14405603
Big Chem wants to sell that flame retardant
In CA, if you want one for a child, you need a doctor's note

>>14405653
it literally hurts high test men the most, of course someone with a diet already high in doy because of additives wont show such a dramatic change

>>14405638
More that it was one person that seemed to show this effect and therefore the chances that it had nothing to do with soy was much greater. The vast majority of these studies aren't controlled carefully enough to completely isolated the variable they're introducing. A 4 week study isn't a strict lab experiment where subjects are confined

>>14405656
I never said anything about nut size, I just dismissed the first paper because it was flawed
Infertile males are not a representative sample, and self report data is useless
Biomedical research is usually a scam, and even these scammers laugh at nutritional science

>NOOOOOOOOOOO NOT MY SOY STOCK PRICES
>YOU CAN'T SAY THAT IT'S FAKE NEWS DEBUNKED BY SNOPES

>>14405682
so if these studies cant prove soy to be UNSAFE they also cant prove it to be SAFE... so why is it for sale for human consumption?
however we DO know that animal meat is SAFE, history tells us that, we dont need studies to prove meat is good and safe

>>14405693
SAFE and UNSAFE are relative terms
Toxicity is all about the dosage
Anything, at a sufficiently large concentration, can kill you
Receipt paper is probably far more dangerous than soy. Where is the outrage? What people care about, or not care about, usually has very little to do with reality
The largest slave raids of the 20th century happened in the 90s. Where was the liberal outrage? Few libs cared about the deadliest conflict since WW2 either

>>14405725
>dude everything's bad and chemicals
>dude everything gives you cancer
>so just feminize yourself with phytoestrogen

>>14405725
most ppl: touch a receipt 1-3 times a week, especially now with covid
most ppl: eat soy and soy additives multiple times a day
dose is poison and im willing to bet we are consuming too much soy to our detriment

>>14405725
you are a disgrace to your family.
people cannot stop stores from printing receipts, but people can stop eating soy.
acting like the lowest common denominator gets you no where
which is why I will continue to not eat soy

>>14405752
>most ppl: touch a receipt 1-3 times a week, especially now with covid
Maybe post covid, but pre-covid not so much, and it's worse for cashiers, or servers
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5453537/
>most ppl: eat soy and soy additives multiple times a day
Most people eat shit tier processed food that is full of nasty shit. I would argue to avoid processed food altogether and not just the foods containing soy extracts, and not worry about fermented soy products like tofu or natto
This might be too subtle for this board though, that tends to see things in absolutes, like many young people do

>>14405876
>goalpost shifting to fermented soy shit instead of all soy shit in food
Based retard

>>14405889
>reading is hard
I never said soy was bad or good, but that might be hard to understand for someone who only deals in absolutes

>>14405456
I started posting on /ck/ solely to call libcuck soyboys without the filter.

>>14405876
thanks for telling me what I already know, retard
I mentioned fermented soy posts earlier, if you're going to be a centrist about a possibly carcinogenic every day food, fuck you
the evidence is abundant that soy is harmful and causes reproductive issues, it is a way to chemically castrate men and give women infertility issues

>>14405456
All I know or care about soy is that taking Soy Lecithin supplements along with L-Arginine helps you shoot big ropes of cum.

>>14405943
You insulted the whole board and shifted goalposts because you were losing an argument, retard. kys

>>14405970
Are you also concerned about butylated hydroxytoluene, food dyes, brominated vegetable oil, nitrosamine, pthalates, perchlorate etc. that are found in processed foods or their packaging? Many of these have been determined to be harmful, with better evidence than soy. Some are dick shrivelers too
Or are you only concerned about soy because it is popular to be concerned about soy on these boards?
Or are you so insecure about your own masculinity that you are afraid of soy?

>>14405977
See
>>14405514
>I didn't say it was "healthy" whatever that means
>You insulted the whole board
ah bloo bloo bloo. I'm sorry if I hurt your feewings

>>14406019
>"ah bloo bloo bloo"
>called out for logical fallacies
>literally starts crying

>>14406004
yeah I'm concerned about all of that which I why I buy meat and dairy from a farm directly and grow my own produce and go for plastic free packaging when possible
soy is the only processed food that people cling to, saying its healthy, when there's evidence otherwise

I for one will keep enjoying soy, I love my budding female breasts!

>>14406127
are you a man or woman?
if man you do not have female breasts, if woman, you are jeopardizing your health and fertility

>>14406129
I was born into a male body but my brain is 110% female.
I'm currently enjoying breast tissue growth and if soy enhances my womanhood, I'm all for it!
I have also noticed my sweat is smelling sweeter since taking hormone replacement medication.

>>14406154
soy destroys actual womanhood, and promotes androgynous features in both men and women

>>14406154
tits or GTFO

What about the Japanese? They seem perfectly fine with soy in their diets.

>>14406206
they eat fermented soy and only ate fermented soy to begin with

>>14406206
Soy sauce has traditionally been fermented, but much of the cheap shit isn't anymore. Unfermented soy is unfit for human consumption

>>14406213
Yeah they don't eat tofu at all or anything. It's unheard of in Japanese cuisine.

>>14406213
>>14406214

Yea, but tofu isn't necessarily fermented.

Honestly I have a bigger problem with the mercury in fish more than the soy gig, but then again I don't eat enough soy stuff to really cause any problems.

>>14406218
The problem is that soy has been added to almost everything and also the plant-based "meats" that are highly processed unfermented soy products. Neither of that is natural or normal nor had it been done until recently.

>>14406227
Then just avoid processed shit.

>>14406216
Lol. I know right.

they pretend they know shit
they never admit they got it wrong
and they keep arguing whatever they can sperg out

>>14406216
tofu is traditionally Chinese

>>14406280
>implying that has anything to do with the fact that they still eat it and have for a very long time
Based retard

>>14406227
>natural
Corn isn't "natural" either, so you'd better avoid that as well

>>14406308
do you look like a chink? do you think your body can handle soy like theirs?
do you want to be a little bugman with only 1 child?
what makes you think you're a fucking chink who has the evolutionary experience to digest fermented soy and tofu?

>>14406319
Imagine being so weak that a bit of soy sauce turns you into a woman.

>>14406309
>implying

>>14406330
I'm already a woman, I'd like to stay a woman

>>14406345
No you're a greasy neckbeard troll that tries too hard to bait people.

So it's just a generalized endocrine disruptor? They're sure these people aren't eating pesticides or something?

>>14406352
well check this out, you might be right, the impossible burger constrains 11x the amount of pesticides than the beyond burger
it could have something to do with the soy hemoglobin fake blood mad scientist experiment thats in the impossible burger but not the beyond burger

>>14406363
forgot link
https://www.momsacrossamerica.com/gmo_impossible_burger_positive_for_carcinogenic_glyphosate

soy is still has antinutrients that aren't properly deactivated

>>14406375
The "antinutrients" thing is a scaremongering meme. Most of those compounds are good for you and fight cancer.

>>14406375
>momsacrossamerica
This has to be a falseflag, otherwise you're a retard lmao

>>14406444
Trips have spoken

>>14406444
it's an academic source

>>14406444
>Moms Across America is a 501c3 non-profit whose mission is to educate mother and others to transform the food industry and environment, creating healthy communities together. Their motto is Empowered Moms, Healthy Kids.

what is wrong with this?

>>14406456
He hates his mother and all mothers everywhere. He thinks children should be ripped from their mothers and raised by the state and corporations instead.

>>14406469
rippen

>>14405741
>no argument
i didn't expect much more from a wojakcuck.

I tried chocolate soy milk for the first time today. Was pretty meh.

>>14407795
Dark chocolate almond milk is pretty good.

>>14405656
>>14405635
t. load experts
arbiters of nut knowledge

>>14407632
the only argument for soy here is that there are other worse endocrine harmning every day toxins out there which isn't an argument
thats just stating something thats true and saying "DUDE TH3 WORLD IS TOXIC, WHO CARES ABOUT SOY IF EVERYTHING IS BAD AND IT TAKES WORK TO ELIMINATE ALL TH3 BAD THINGS"

NOT AN ARGUMENT
please provide an argument, soyshill

>>14407802
almonds support bee slavery and are terrible to the environment

>>14409161
>tee hee I associate smart ppl who threaten my false narrative with funny words like le load and le nut and it totally cancels out whatever scientific merit the studies have!

NOT AN ARGUMENT

>>14405456
What caused soy specifically to have this rumor around it? What compels people to protect the milk industry? Wouldn't milk be more suspicious of female hormones?

>>14409234
not sure the milk industry is behind it, 70% of soy produced in america feeds livestock, poultry first but dairy cows not too far behind. The dairy industry very much needs soy, as well as the rest of the livestock producers

>>14409234
soy is a newfangled food, with a history of fermented use only and in a specific region until recently
milk is an ancient food seen all across the world, typically consumed raw, dating back thousands upon thousands of years
soy and tofu have been around for less than a thousand years

the buzz is because when scientists attempted to study the isoflavones in soy they found them to be cancerous and endocrine disruptive
raw milk doesn't have the same history, and the mayo clinic actually promoted a 3 day raw milk fast for ailments.
a 3 day soy milk fast isnt reccomended by anyone sane and will probably make your problems worse

so the problem is soy is this overhyped newfangled creation that cannot compare to animal products in terms of health and wellbeing

>>14409267
why do you think the cows fart so much? they're eating something completely unnatural to their intended diets of grass

>>14409268
>soy is a newfangled food
not to asians

>>14409272
>unnatural
i'm not sure you know what that word means. as for cow farts, the issue is with the size of herds, not the amount an individual cow farts

>>14409277
yes even to asians, asians have been around longer than 1000 years, yet soy hasn't. you mouth breathing fucking retard. if you could read the arguments instead of being such a dunning Kruger retard you would know this
>>14409278
proof? evidence? any type of source for that claim?

>>14409277
https://dailyhealthpost.com/stop-eating-commercial-soy-products/
Asians also eat soy in small amounts, not in the isolated forms that Americans do, like soy protein
a typical Asian lunch is meat with 2 cubes of tofu or a soup with a cube or two of tofu
they aren't eating imposible burgers and tufo burritos
your argument is based on a logical fallacy, try again mouth breathing retard

>>14405456
It's a forced meme loved by unmasculine teenagers who want to pretend that their political opponents are more feminine than them.

>>14409287
https://www.alltech.com/features-podcast-blog/frank-mitloehner-cattle-climate-change-and-methane-myth

here's a excerpt:
[...]Methane is really very different from the other greenhouse gases. The three main greenhouse gases we're dealing with are methane, CO2 and nitrous oxide.
So, how are they different? The last two — the carbon dioxide, or CO2, and the nitrous oxide — they have a very long lifespan. Once they are in the air, they stay there for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Any kind of CO2 that you have ever put into the air by driving a car is still in the air. The only way that gas goes is upward. The more we emit, the more accumulates in the air. These gases are called stock gases because they always add up; they don't go down. Methane is very different. It does not have a lifespan of 1,000 years; it has a lifespan of 10 years. So, after a decade, it's gone. There's a process that destroys methane, and that's called hydroxy-oxidation. What that really means is that, if you were to be the owner of a dairy or a beef operation, and let's say you've been in the business for 50 years with 1,000 animals, then, 50 years ago, your thousand animals put out methane. For the first ten years, that methane was new because you just started that business.
After that, you did not add any new methane to the atmosphere, because anything that's emitted is also being destroyed. After ten years, that gas is gone. That makes methane very, very different from the other gases. This is critical to know.
What this means is, if a country like Ireland, New Zealand or the United States keeps their livestock herds steady, then they keep their methane steady. If they keep their methane steady, then they are not increasing global warming. So, do we increase global warming with our livestock herds? The answer to that is no, as long as we don't increase herd sizes.

>>14409432
this doesn't take into account the unnatural grain fed diet
I've lived around grass fed cows who had a large circuit they could feed upon and I've never heard or seen a cow fart, only cow shit full of grass that dries up eventually and turns to a light green after all the shit is gone
this doesn't address the root issue, it assumes we can omly reduce methane by reducing cows when we can reduce methane other ways as well, like reducing fossil fuels

>>14409835
>it assumes we can omly reduce methane by reducing cows...
Nowhere does it imply cattle is the only source of methane, nor does is state herd reduction as the only strategy to mitigate methane emissions. It does however say that the total methane emissions by cattle have more to do with the size of the herd than anything else.
>this doesn't take into account the unnatural grain fed diet
https://academic.oup.com/af/article/9/1/69/5173494 this study shows that forage quality and feed processing have a low impact on enteric methane mitigation, with at best a 5% reduction. meaning if you have 20 cows on the best possible diet they will produce as much methane as 21 cows on a standard diet. Good, but not nearly enough to imply herd size isn't the decisive factor.
>I've lived around grass fed cows who had a large circuit they could feed upon and I've never heard or seen a cow fart,
akshually it's cow burps, not farts. as for the rest of your anecdote:
Enteric fermentation is a natural part of the digestive process of ruminants where bacteria, protozoa, and fungi contained in the fore-stomach of the animal (rumen), ferment and break down the plant biomass eaten by the animal. Plant biomass in the rumen is converted into volatile fatty acids, which pass the rumen wall and go to the liver through the circulatory system. This process supplies a major part of the energy needs of the animal and enables the high conversion efficiency of cellulose and semi-cellulose, which is typical of ruminants. The gaseous waste products of enteric fermentation, carbon dioxide and methane, are mainly removed from the rumen by eructation. Methane emission in the reticulorumen is an evolutionary adaptation that enables the rumen ecosystem to dispose hydrogen, which may otherwise accumulate and inhibit carbohydrate fermentation and fiber degradation (McAllister and Newbold, 2008). The emission rate of enteric methane varies according to feed intake and digestibility

>>14409287
>asians have been around longer than 1000 years, yet soy hasn't
holy shit kill yourself retard

>>14405456

>>14411076
Soy was first discovered 3000 years ago, and it was only fit for human consumption for a small part of the global population 2000 years ago.
He isnt wrong
>>14409268
This sums it up

>>14405456
Soy food is processed and processed food is bad for you no matter what, simple as.

>>14405456
>six women

>>14405477
>12 men

from that alone it's not a very robust study

>>14413405
cooking meat is processing it.
you eat raw meat?
>inb4 "yes" with a chad pic

>>14405528
You should avoided phospholipids?
Yeah good luck with that, since literally every living cell is composed of it

i like frying tofu and dipping it in soysauce mixed with vinegar and red onions.
its pretty good.

>>14405476
Anti soy people claim it's an endocrine disrupter and it is

>>14410110
t. cringy autist

ITT: Super hypermasculine chads so afraid of plant horomones affecting them while they lead their testosterone dependent lives of sitting on their arse eating butter and lard.

>>14413405
>processed food is bad
picking fruit off a tree is processing.

>>14413783
>NOOOOOO YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO PROVE ME WRONG A-AUTIST I HATE YOU!!!!!!
I accept your apology

So... what about making my own tofu?

>>14405456
I'm lactose intolerant (gives me bad breath, basically), what alternatives do you suggest that aren't soy? I tried almond milk but it makes it difficult to shit

>>14414001
Lactose free milk?