/ck/ - Food & Cooking

You're both faggots, fuck off.

>>14389258
Animals do not deserve to be murdered, of course human on human murders happen but theres no excuse to kill animals when vegan food exists

>>14389258
Really the only case for eating it is that it’s very protein dense and it has a unique role in creating flavor/texture. Other than that there’s no excuse. I’m mostly vegetarian because of my gf but I eat meat occasionally because there’s just no replacing al pastor

I don't care about the animals.

>>14389258
Honestly just give us the arguments against meat to debunk them, but the main argument in favor of meat is that it tastes good.

I eat meat because i'm set in my ways and it tastes good.

>>14389258
Look at it this way: All of the smartest animals in nature eat meat or is an omnivore. All big cats, the great apes, dolphins they all eat meat. It is needed for proper brain development and function. Also, we are the head of the food chain and I’ll eat an animal if it tastes good

>>14389258
>Which are some arguments you have in favour of it?
Humans probably need some amount of animal proteins in their diet for proper growth and functioning. Just look at kids who've grown up on vegetarian diets versus kids who were fed balanced diets. There's a lot of conflicting studies out there, but there's also a general consensus that vegetarian diets need supplements/vitamins to make up for certain nutrients which aren't present in plant based foods that the human body requires.
That being said it's probably okay for grown adults to switch to plant diets, however a little meat every now and then is likely a good idea.

Meat tastes good and cooked protein is the reason we developed into apex predators, these arguments that it's not moral are retarded , I doubt a lion thinks about morality when it's stomach growls and it spots a gazelle

>>14389258
I don't need an argument to eat meat.

https://nourishingtraditions.com/impossible-burger-soy-disgusting/

>>14389258
Just give it up you sound like a quitter anyway

The only reason you'd go vegan is if you want to be a twink with luscious thighs and sensitive nipples granted by the wonders of soy alternatives. Do you want to be a twink, anon? Do you want to bend over and let me pound your cute little bussy? Make your choice...

>>14389258
are americans really afraid of eating regular animal meat? what the fuck is wrong with you people. this is why you are all obese and have diabetes because of your giant sodas, toxic food, GMO, and SSRI. you dont deserve. . absolutely disgusting and shameful.

americans dont have culture, only fast food and fat ass mcdonalds and trump

>>14389737
Too subtle

>>14389369
>we are the head of the food chain

except for polar bears

>>14389258
Isn't that the fake meat that had millions of times more estrogen than regular meat?

>>14389258
>is it okay to take a life just to eat?
The value of a life comes from meaningful connections to others and from the ability to contribute to the advancement of civilisation. Lives aren't inherently valuable.

Farm animals do not (in general) have meaningful connections to others and cannot advance civilisation. There are some exceptions such as weaning calves at a young age for dairy, but even these negatives may be outweighed by the production they enable.

>is it okay to cause suffering?
Even if it's okay to take a life to feed yourself, suffering seems inherently bad.

Farm animals do not have to suffer much from being killed and eaten. In some supply chains, particularly American feedlots, they do suffer, but this is not generalisable to all meat: you should know where your food comes from and source it ethically.

>is it bad for the environment?
Yes. It will raise your greenhouse emissions, and there are some concerns about agricultural runoff. However, consuming a small amount of meat is generally good for you. You can drastically reduce your environmental footprint if you e.g. eat one or two small servings of meat and one of fish each week. It is much better for the environment to go from meat at every meal to meat sparingly, than it is to go from there to completely cutting out all meat.

>>14389804
Polar bear vs atomic weapon I mean, we are literally nearing solar system predators

>>14389725
OP here, anon just sold me. Can't wait to be a cute little twink and choke on cocks

>>14389258
theres only one argument for eating meat:

1 its delicious
2 its literally how life works . there is no life without death and transformation. Your turn is coming.

simple as.

>>14389328
Murder is a legal term reserved for humanity, and if you want less animals killed for food, get a chest freezer, source a farmer who raises pasture raised, grass finished large animals like cattle and hogs, and feed yourself on one of those for a year from nose to tail (aka honor the things that die for your food, because animals always die for your food, regardless if you are vegan or not). One animal dies for your food instead of trillions for vegan food or billions for supermarket animal food.

Lets face it, without industrially processed mock meats and other ungodly petroleum packed, globally imported abominations against humanity you urbanite consumers call "vegan", the vegan movement wouldn't exist outside of a few anorexic nutjobs that would die in a decade from malnutrition.

>>14389852
glownigger troll

>>14390112
Even pasture-raised cattle will be fed with silage or hay during the summer or winter in a lot of areas, so you're still going to be killing a bunch of animals when the feed is harvested.

>>14389258
Why would I even fucking need an argument?

>>14389258
tastes good

>>14389345
>I’m mostly vegetarian because of my gf
Yikes. You sound like an immense faggot.

>>14389737
What's the weather like in Beijing today, Xu?

Animas have a will to live and they can suffer ike us

>>14389258
In favour of eating it or being a vegetarian? Frame your question more specifically you retarded faggot

If "meat tastes good" is your only argument for why you still eat meat, then that's just another point in favor for becoming vegan because plant-based meats have gotten to the point where they perfectly replicate the taste and texture of meat. You can go ahead and say "nu uh plant-based meat tastes bad" but tons of blind taste test scientific studies will disagree with you.

Plant-based meats are a good way for meat eaters to eventually become vegan/vegetarian if their diet is meat heavy. One argument I often see is "well how else are you suppose to get protein", which is a pretty ironic argument because plant-based meats often have MORE protein than their meat counterparts. In fact, since becoming vegan, I've hit more of my macros than ever before. I eat more tofu than I do fake meat; tofu is so fucking cheap in comparison to buying meat, and its unbelievably easy to cook. You just press it and throw it in the fryer and that's it. It also marinates better than most meats.

Also, if your brother is only a vegetarian, he really doesn't have much of a right to say things like "farm animals suffer" since non-meat animal products still exist.

>>14390143
I just want cocks in my mouth...mhhh...

>>14390380
I still eat meat because I tried to be vegetarian for several years and during that time my health took a total shit.

I don't eat meat for "taste pleasure" like so many vegans claim. If I ate for taste pleasure I would still eat processed shit like candy, soda, and other processed empty calories.

I eat animal foods because they contain (among other things) cholesterol, which allows the biosynthesis of the plethora of fat soluble vitamins, minerals, and amino acids in animal products to be available to my body. Animal foods are the most digestible foods I can eat, especially organs like liver.

But it goes even deeper than that. Vegans want to live in denial that animals had to die for their food. As someone who has a holistic garden and livestock, I can tell you even on a tiny, beyond organic scale, lots of animals die for plant ag. When I eat, it's for gratitude for life. Something had to die for me to live. And you just can't get that same gratitude with a plant. A single plant can maybe feed you for a day if you have a big tuber. But a single animal can provide you with enough calories to last a year or even longer.

Also, on your thing on tofu, I used to eat shittons of tofu, and I can say with full confidence that it is incredibly difficult to cook with and marinade. It's flavorless slop, yes, even your precious extra firm tofu. It never cooked right no matter how long I spent on it.

Its good for soft, puddinglike desserts though.

>>14390467
Is that right? Come on, beg me...in your favorite pair of panties. Have you been eating the impossible burger lately? That soy's been good to your thighs...hehe...

>>14390380
if you need a reason to not be a vegetarian, then just think of the millions of ground dwelling rodents and moles which die every year to automated harvesting machines. If every life have value and is equal ( like you must certainly feel if you're vegan in the first place. ) your chosen manner of sustenance actually claims more life every year then the entire meat industry.

Even better, those rodents are often ground up and showered over the very veggies you eat.

>>14389258
Why are vegans so insufferable, carnivores can just be written off as mentally ill, but vegans will run the fucking mile to convince you that they're a better person then you are because of what they stick in their malnourished mouth

>>14389814
Yes. https://youtu.be/ZhO60j7XsQc

>>14389258
it tastes good, thats literally the only argument necessary

>>14390489
Please give me your cock...I need it in my mouth, I wanna suck and deepthroat it and make it feel good. Ohhh....

>>14390112
Veganism has nothing to do with anorexics, some people do eat raw fruit diets though and that makes them skinny.

Also animal products get processed the same way as vegan food does, the process isn't unique to cow milk, meat or any animal products. Its like claiming only one person can have kids and a meaningless argument

>>14390542
Animal products are not processed the same way vegan food is, are you kidding me?! I can make burger with a cow/goat I raised on grass, kill the animal, butcher it, and grind up the trimming. I can even imagine doing this without any petroleum or electricity. Just a rope, knife, and a hand crank meat grinder. Maybe a few good buddies if it's a large animal.

I cannot, for the life of me, imagine making a beyond burger or even mock butter from plants I grow myself.

You don't need a blender to make cows milk. You just need a cow who has given birth, hands and a bucket.

I mean jesus I don't even know if I could make non cold pressed plant oils without a factory.


https://www.eatingdisorderhope.com/information/anorexia/vegetarianism-risks

>"About half (45 to 54 percent) of patients seeking treatment for anorexia nervosa (AN) reported practicing some form of a vegetarian diet (Bardone-Cone, et al., 2012). "

>>14389369
>Look at it this way: All of the smartest animals in nature eat meat or is an omnivore. All big cats, the great apes, dolphins they all eat meat. It is needed for proper brain development and function. Also, we are the head of the food chain and I’ll eat an animal if it tastes good

Arguments for eating meat: I can whatever I want.

Arguments for being vegan: I like animals.

Fallacies that imply eating meat is wrong: Morals this, morals that (morals don't exist)

Fallacies that imply veganism is wrong: Plant agriculture kills animals too; Humans need meat to survive (first one is using their own incorrect definition of veganism while the second one is just an idiot)

>>14389398
smart and based post

>>14389258

Humans and pre-humans have been eating meat for millions of years.

Our bodies are well adapted to meat consumption and we are perfectly capable of making full use of the nutrients found in meat.

In fact, our digestive systems don’t resemble those of herbivores at all.

We have short colons, long small intestines and plenty of hydrochloric acid in the stomach to help break down animal protein.

Also, the lengths of different parts of our digestive systems are somewhere in between the lengths typical for carnivores and herbivores, indicating that we are naturally “designed” to be omnivores.

The fact that vegans can’t function without B12 supplements or B12 supplemental foods is also a pretty strong argument for these diets not being “natural.”

Studies suggest that our consumption of animal foods helped drive the evolution of our large brains.

Also, hunter-gatherers ate lots of meat. Our genes were shaped in an environment that included plenty of animal products.

The truth is… humans function best eating both animals and plants. Period.

Bottom Line: Humans are naturally omnivores and function best eating a combination of animals and plants. This is reflected in the anatomy of our digestive system.

>>14390920
>>14390920
Do you only have one image saved?

>>14391062
nice naturalistic fallacy you got going on there. are you also antivax?

>>14391009

>Arguments for eating meat: Animals are fucking assholes

>>14391126
are they drowning a female duck? because good. women were a mistake. even when they're ducks.

Veganism is a pseudo religious cult that requires you to take a handful of supplements with poor bioavailability just to stay alive.
Eating meat is moral. Eating meat is healthy. Eating meat and animal products is virtually required to not look and feel like a loser.
It's a coping mechanism for people that reject religion but still want to project made-up morals into others to feel good.

>>14391163
It is common for ducks to gang rape a female to death. I saw a duck raping another duck infront of her screaming babies. He almost drowned her.

Imagine getting this shit shoved into your cloaca.

>>14391177
I'm not sure what biological advantage that confers upon the species but I admire their commitment to misogyny

>>14389328
Killing animals for food isn't murder.

>>14391171
>veganism is religious
>but my morals aren't religious!

>>14391190
Yeah I reckon you should eat chickens. Roosters are generally cucks and will not attack females. They will usually die for their hens. Roosters are noisy and attract predator attention

Male ducks (drakes) don't make a sound. The females are the loud ones.
Silent rapists

>>14391171
>It's a coping mechanism for people that reject religion but still want to project made-up morals into others to feel good.
Very well said.

Never underestimate the IQ and critical thinking skills of the average joe as well. There are people who place their sexual attraction as their #1 in life, and this means an ability to sacrifice health over many things. Someone who can literally work out 5 hours a day will look like someone who does that. Are they interesting? Probably they are boring in some way, like lack of reading, lack of spiritual health or charity. There are sheer number of hours involved in just moving on a tread mill at the expense of something else.

>>14389258
We didn't evolve over millions of years as herbivores. We are literally designed to eat meat. Being a vegan/vegetarian is peak bourgeoisie virtue signalling as you need to live in an extremely industrialised society and have access to all sorts of unnatural supplements in order to maintain a vegetarian diet and even then, you will run into all sorts of long term health problems. Animals are cool and people who are cruel to them should get the death penalty but not eating meat literally makes you a fucking faggot.

>>14389328
>Animals do not deserve to be murdered
Fuck animals, I want them to die.

>>14391213
>Roosters are generally cucks and will not attack females.
You've clearly never dealt with an asshole rooster. Those dumb fucking dinosaur shits will go around pecking eggs, disfiguring your hens, clawing your chicks death, then dropkicking you if you come try to stop them. Some people say you can tame an aggressive rooster, but I figure why not just eat the fucker and buy a new one.

If humans developed their current brain mass by eating meat, should we not continue? Are we done evolving?

>>14391235
Pretty much this.
I don't want to support potential poor animal husbandry, so careful sourcing and also raising my own livestock has helped ease my conscious. My ducks live a beautiful life on fresh clean grass every day (daily pasture rotation) eating bugs and crop residue from my garden and playing in a kiddie pool (going to make a pond in the future) under an open sky (sometimes in the shade of trees and shrubs). Most of them are going to be for eggs and breeding stock, but there's a gimpy one that can't walk right (genetic deformity) and struggles to get to its food and it might attract predators to the rest of the flock, so I'm giving it a few more weeks of growing and then I'm putting it out of its misery and yes, I'm gonna eat it.
My livestock probably lives a better life than most vegans.

>>14391306
My retard vegan sister used to tell me as a kid we stopped evolving thousands of years ago.
I think she also believed everything was finished evolving.

Yep. I look at humanity and I agree, this is as good as its gonna get.

>>14389328
meat is tasty and makes people grow.

Vegetarians and vegans are responsible for the loss of more animal lives than people who eat meat. The argument against vegetarianism and veganism is that to produce the amount of grains, vegetables etc needed to satisfy a veg diet you need to have a very large amount of farming area. To be able to grow in that space there needs to be no other living animals there, no insects, no rabbits, no gophers or whatever and you can't exactly just ask them nicely to not eat your crops, so they have to be killed with pesticides, poisons and straight up being mulched by farming equipment. Many, many more animal lives are lost than in harvesting livestock. Why are the lives of those insects and rabbits worth less than that of cows or pigs, for which far fewer need to be killed to feed the same amount of people?

>>14391397
dude nice sources

I think there is a paradigm about the sentience of vegetable life that's pure bullshit. They evolved differently their nervous system but they feel as the animals do, they arent incomplete organisms like say, an early fetus. Vegans wonñt accept this as they loose moral ground.
Reducing consumption of meat may be more ecological maybe, but it's ok to eat meat. You´ll kill either way unless you live from fruit, milk based products and seeds.

>>14391401
What do you want, a 3 ring binder? Look up what it takes to provide food for 100 vegans vs 100 meat eaters.

>>14391401
not the OP but yo, if you grow your own crops you will realize if you don't spray them with chemical pesticides most of them will be infested with insects and other animals. My cabbage, cauliflower, and broccoli this year is RUINED. Its chewed up and filled to the brim in catepillar shit. A human could eat it, but it is fucking disgusting, I've been feeding it to my livestock.
Most of my salad greens had small holes in them as well. I could eat them because I was getting them for free, but if I was trying to sell them it would be a mess. Even if I was selling at a farmers market I would have to kill a lot of shit for the produce I was growing.

But most vegans are getting produce from supermarkets. Those are grown on hundreds if not thousands of acres of monocrop and that means tons of pesticides and hiring hunters to kill whatever is trying to get into your food, even if you built that farm on their home.

No .gov site is gonna tell you this shit. You're gonna have to experience it for yourself by not being a worthless consumer contributing to all our modern environmental and socioeconomic issues by feeding this oligarchical powerhouse that only cares about money.

My friends made their dog vegan, and I just can't get behind that....it's cruel.

The only justification I have for eating meat is that it tastes good and no alternatives exist.

I have thought about it and I literally cannot argue against veganism.

I'd like to think cow flesh grown in vats will be a thing in my lifetime but I doubt it.

>>14389258
It taste good

>>14390857
You nitpicked my post lol. I mean anything can be "processed" It means nothing because its a vague definition. And I didn't process your post because I don't care about what anti-vegans do just like I don't care if someone has sex with my ex, what's with this "I'M GONNA DO IT AND MAKE YOU MAD" bye

>>14391575
Not the guy you're replying to but you sound like a little bitch.
>gets into an argument with an anti-vegan
>reeeee I don't care what anti-vegans say
Little bitch, unquestionably

>>14389258
The only argument with strength is the ethical claim that killing animals is wrong, killing plants isn't wrong, and abstaining from buying meat will result in fewer animals killed.

>>14389328
Where do you draw the ethical line though? The specific point matters.
Chickens bred for meat currently have a life expectancy of like 2 weeks. The preemptive slaughter is so close to the time of death it could be called euthanasia. Also are you claiming that no life is better than a life that ends in slaughter (which makes you necessarily pro abortion too)?

>>14389827
>is it bad for the environment?
This argument often overlooks the type of land and land clearing necessary for grazing vs farming.

>>14390112
>and if you want less animals killed for food
The litmus test for this is veganism vs vegetarianism. Dairy cows are not mistreated. And would you eat the meat of an old dairy cow that died of natural causes? Such meat is available, but not particularly desired.

>>14389258
Animals are objects with no moral standing.

>>14391575
Hey, I’m the poster ur replying to. I’m not exactly “anti” vegan. I just honestly don’t really believe most vegans are actually vegan. It takes a lot more than just consuming plants to optimally reduce harm from your consumer descisions. And the vegan movement always talks about reducing harm as much as possible and practicable, and I think it’s possible and practicable to produce your own produce and avoid unethical crops like cashews, almonds, coconuts, palm, canola, avocado, banana, soy, corn, wheat,cotton, quinoa, chocolate, coffee.... some of those you can get fair trade but mostly they are best avoided unless you can direct source. Lots of animals and humans suffer for the production of those crops.
Just carefully sourcing or self producing is really the way to go.

>>14391441
https://youtu.be/KYo3lEQTiMY

>>14391758
>Chickens bred for meat currently have a life expectancy of like 2 weeks

... 8 weeks for your typical broiler. They are still chicky poos at 2 weeks. Please interact with some livestock irl.

Also most hamburger is retired dairy cow. Most dairy cows don’t die of natural causes in modern mass production industrial dairy. They overwork the cow and after it passes it’s peak it’s slaughtered. Of course you can support small scale dairies who don’t overwork their cows and the cows will live significantly longer. But you can eat a cow at any age, I saw a vid of a guy eating a steak from a 17 year old cow. Looked delicious!!!!

>>14389258
"Hey anons my brother is telling me why a vegetarian diet is not only healthier but a more ethical choice, but how do I totally own this soiboi fag with meat facts and logic and debunk him???"
OP you're a manchild

>>14389258
taste good

>>14389258
Who is gonna stop me?

>>14391944
Tough guy vegans

>>14389258
I like meat because it tastes good but am not a fan of our agro. It abuses animals and then kills them horribly. I don't believe in karma but if there was such a thing humans would be fucked from all the suffering animals go through. I wish I could quit meat, I'm trying but I like it. It's hard to say no to bacon despite pigs being smarter than dogs. I'm eating less meat, so that's something.

>>14391994
have you tried plant-based meats?

>>14392015
>plant-based meats
no such thing

Humans are supposed to eat meat and neglecting to do so results in nutritional deficiency. There are no replacements for real food.

>>14390488
Based

man evolved because he cooked meat. we eat it today just as animals eat each other. we are a part of an ecosystem in which we dominate. the only thing i feel bad about is not killing the animal myself.

>>14391994
> It's hard to say no to bacon despite pigs being smarter than dogs
just quit pork and sub turkey retard. turkey bacon.

>>14392113
pigs are smart enough to eat bacon

>>14392140
what did you mean by this

>>14389258
I don't think there's many strong arguments for eating meat outside of it being a huge part of human cultures around the world. If you have a sentimental attachment to it, eat it, otherwise a vegetarian diet is a good option

>>14392145
1 bacon is delicious
2 pigs are cannibals

>>14392113
But sir, turkey bacon is shit

>>14392165
bacon is delicious but if your concern is that you feel bad about their intelligence being wasted on meat, you can just eat turkey bacon
>>14392170
i dont agree. it obviously doesnt taste the same but it's still pretty great. i dont eat bacon very often in general, though.

Meat is delicious
I'm sorry about the animals, but meat is delicious.

>>14389258
We are genetically predisposed to eating meat (and produce) and protein substitutes are expensive and not as effective as the real deal. If you have an issue with corporate farming treatment of animals just eat organic/local.

>>14389258
tell him the animal has already been breed feed and slaughtered, not eating it and not using it worse than eating it cause eating give it a purpose and it the lively hood and hard work of others, he should stop being entitled and just eat meat when severed cause no eating it worse than eating it. IMAGINE FARMING FEEDING TRANSPORTING SLAUGHTERING TRANSPORTING IT AND THEN COOKING IT AND GIVING IT TO YOU AND YOU JUST THROW IT AWAY.

>>14389258
I ate pic related and literally bled out my ass because of it. Yes it was cooked through.

So there's that.

>>14392582
yeah thats uh. that is certainly a you problem

>>14389258
Allow body to rest without animal products 90 days 120 even better and you will understand what a detriment it is day in and day out

>>14392613
take your meds schizo

>>14392620
Back to fit
Ed fuckwad

>>14392611
You're not wrong, but it's worth pointing out foods like this aren't magical fairy morsels and they can wreck some people's digestion systems

>>14392613

>>14389258
How about the fact that you're a functioning adult and you should be able to eat anything you're not allergic to?

What gives you the right to kill plants?

>>14389258
We're omnivores, so not having meat in your diet at least occasionally is going to mean you're not at optimal health. Meat alternatives don't provide as much nutrition or high quality protein. Most studies show that people who don't eat meat have less muscle mass, and less muscle mass is tied to a number of negative health outcomes, especially for older people. You won't become malnourished and die without meat but you're still sacrificing some of your health.

But I'm not completely supportive of it either. While it's natural for us to eat meat and I don't agree with trying to turn everyone vegan, there are a lot of problems with modern factory farming and how animals can be treated. Even if it's not done on purpose, sometimes things go wrong and the animals end up suffering. Lab-grown meat seems to be the best compromise for that, as long as the technology keeps improving we'll be able to get real meat that's just as nutritious, without having to kill for it. A lot of non-vegans even say they'd support this.

Don't eat that dirty animal, eat our patented and trademarked slop made of industrial waste instead

>>14390380
>plant-based meats have gotten to the point where they perfectly replicate the taste and texture of meat. You can go ahead and say "nu uh plant-based meat tastes bad" but tons of blind taste test scientific studies will disagree with you.
When was the last time you tasted real meat? I've basically tasted every kind of meat alternative and none of them completely accurately recreate it. Some of them get pretty close, and I still like the way a lot of them taste, but it's still definitely not a perfect replica. Most people have a warped perception of taste due to a lifetime of consuming processed food as well. It's harder to tell when the plant-based meats are mixed in with other things and you've got condiments and sugar on it, but it's really easy to tell it's not the real thing if you taste it on its own.

Plant protein is also not utilized by the body as well. With some forms of plant protein half of it basically doesn't get used. They're mostly not complete proteins and not digested as well. If you're entirely relying on plant protein you need to eat about 20% more to compensate for that.

vegans are a disease, all they do is post false info like claiming that broccoli has more protein than red meat, then when you prove them wrong they give you links of guys on steroids like this, all of which happened just earlier in another thread

or they just jerk off their ego about how they're better than you because they "dont cause animal suffering" while they cause themselves and others to become emaciated and sickly from their lies

Vegans are faggots. Genghis Khan and the mongols ate meat and milk. "Raw" (real) milk at that. Took over most of Asia. The only competition was rice eating faggot chinks.

>>14392752
stale copypasta

>>14392905
I love raw milk and raw cream.

Raw cream is so thick and sweet. Pasturization is just a way for companies to lower the standard of welfare for their dairy cows.

I'm gonna get my own dairy cow and get the best cream.

>>14389725
Doesn't work like that. Always eat meat.

>>14391190
Well you see, female ducks have evolved complex vaginas in order to avoid giving birth to rape babies. Being able to select the most ideal partner generally is good for a species. Duck penises had to evolve too in order to deal with the females.

>>14389258
Cause you feel like it idk
Circle of life or sum shit

killing is fun and meat tastes good

>>14392799
>another thread

link please

>>14389328
"vegan meat" is by galaxies far the most crappy carcinogenic crap in the supermarkets

>>14393528
literally this. do what you like , based anon

>>14389258
I will only eat meat if it's high quality, pasture raised, and organic. That factory shit is disgusting. Meat is good in moderation.

If animals don’t want to be killed they should evolve so they can fight us back.

>>14391268
Based and niggerpilled

>>14389258
There is no non-animal source of b12. Anyone on a strictly vegan diet will suffer from b12 deficiency after 5 years.

>>14394835
>Anyone on a strictly vegan diet will suffer from b12 deficiency after 5 years.
what about supplements?

>>14389258
We are literally designed to be omnivores, just eat everything in moderation. Life is too short, live it however you want to the fullest and not get bogged down by petty shit like this.

>>14393149
>Pasturization is just a way for companies to lower the standard of welfare for their dairy cows.
Why does no one have any respect for the hard work that's been put into stopping retards from getting food poisoning?

>>14394842
I can't imagine a way to make supplements that is sustainable and environmentally friendly.

>>14394842
From what I hear vegan b12 requires cobalt to make, and cobalt is mined by slave children in the congo. But I mean if you value animals more than people i guess it makes sense. Even though you could just rescue a laying hen and eat her eggs.

>>14389258
Eating cow tongue in Mexican burritos shows how based the food culture is. Mexicans do not give a fuck. At least convince him to be a pescatarian and eat some eggs.

>>14389258
What Sam says here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8RMVET_vA0

What's the vegan endgame? A complete disconnect between humans and animals to avoid all animal suffering? Animals to only exist in the ever dwindling wild nature? I honestly think the system we have right now has the potential to be ethically superior to whatever endgame the vegans have in mind. We just need to improve the living conditions for all livestock to the point where it becomes a symbiotic relationship between them and us. We gift them a life worth living and in return we feed off their healthy and nutritious meat.

>>14389328

I think killing can be an ethically neutral act when it comes to non-human animals. Because it doesn't necessarily involve suffering. The problem arises with need for oversight because animals can't vouch for their own interests and call law enforcement or something if abused, and that, as well as ecological, public health, and even economic reasons, are the best justifications for transitioning away from meat-based diets.

The reason murder is wrong in humans even when it involves no suffering is because a harmonious society requires a degree of peace of mind that we won't be offed just for cconvenience. Whereas an animal with no relationship with another will not know or care if the other is killed.

This is the same reason abortion needn't be more unethical than killing a chicken. Fetuses don't suffer from the knowledge they may be killed. And we have too many humans anyway given the current ecological and technological carrying capacity of the world.

>>14396368
I can't speak for everyone but I think a worthy endgame is a world that doesn't arbitrarily privilege compassion toward the dominant lifeforms. I don't think we should expect to cause no suffering; only to be more considerate of maximizing freedom for all sentient things in the long-term.

>>14396396
Details? Like what do you think these animals want? Specifically what do you think the domestic animals want? Should only non human animals be allowed to kill and eat other animals?

What does freedom look like for livestock? There are people who keep chickens without cages or fences and they just hang out where the food and shelter is. People even do this with rabbits.

Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if you could do this with hogs and cattle, but hogs have to be contained as they are already a destructive invasive species and cattle should be on rotating paddocks to prevent over or under grazing.

>>14396396
Also the world has and always will favor the dominant organisms. Even humanity is not spared that law of nature. A vegan movement don’t prevent that. Sure, it would be nice if that weren’t true... I guess... but honestly I can’t even comprehend it, because the favoring of the dominant has always been the only way things have worked.

>>14389258
It's estimated there are large portions of the population with undiagnosed iron, zinc, B3, B12 deficiencies.
The meat-form of vitamin A is far more effective in the body.
Eating more steak will do them some good.
Instead of the standard American junk food diet, that is.

Though not only relative to the standard American diet. Many people who eat restrictive diets of any kind -- as far as this thread is concerned, eg vegetarian -- will often find themselves with various nutrient deficiencies.

I went from vegetarian to eating a lot of red meat. And my performance in the gym dramatically improved and my physique too. This is with eating the same amount of protein and doing my best to hit all the micros according to cronometer.
My blood pressure, thyroid and insulin sensitivity also massively improved.
Pic is the cronometer for my current diet containing 850 g of red meat per day.

>tfw pescatarian
>omnivores and vegans constantly argue with each other and forget that I exist

>>14396651
You know whats funny? Vegan cultists actually think that you are worse than omnivores. Yes, just choosing to eat fish/seafood instead of going all the way and being a vegan, makes you worse than either outright being a vegan or outright being an omnivore.

>>14389258
if you're in the modernized world there is literally no argument for being omnivorous, unless you just take the "animals can't form a social contract with me so I'm not obligated to honor one with them" sorta route

>>14396569
nutrient deficiency isn't a good argument if you're in the modernized world. There's plenty of artificial sources for nutrients that we traditionally get from meat. If you're diagnosed with an iron deficiency, you're recommended/prescribed a supplement, not a steak

>>14396374
>public health
>best justification for transitioning away from meat-based diet
AHAHAHAHA, all long-term vegans are barely fertile, bloated and excessively farting, malnourished skeletons with lost periods and libido, hair loss, terrible teeth, pre-mature wrinkles and all kinds of other health issues. I can't wait until all those vegan babies grow up to be complete abominations compared to their meat eating counterparts. There's going to be an epedemic of underdeveloped, low IQ subhumans with rotten teeth and dentures in their early 20s all over the western world and veganism will be exposed as the trash "lifestyle" it is.

>>14389328
Let me guess, abortion is fine though

Tried one of these burgers and they were bretty good would eat again 8/10

>>14396727
Going back really far in cronometer is a pain so I won't post a screenshot from back when I was eating vegetarian.
I was hitting all my micronutrients just like in the pic in my post above.
Yet I still felt horrible and had terrible health markers of blood pressure, thyroid and insulin. (My doc didn't check for nutrient deficiencies other than vitamin D, just broad health markers)

Of course I'm eager to share my anecdote because it was life changing for me.

And I do consider supplements a problem.
Similar to other medication, your doctor should be helping you to cure the underlying cause while the medicine is a temporary band-aid.

>>14396732
No one said you have to be vegan if you don't want to eat meat.

Eggs are still delicious.

I went vegatarian for a year with my girlfriend. I never felt like shit more in my life, and I was covering all my bases nutrient wise.
I ended up having an unrelated injury that required me to get an xray, and the first thing the doctor asked was if I was a vegetarian or vegan, because he could tell by looking at my bones.
There are some major differences in protein and animal protein. People who don't consume animal protein are going to be physically more frail and prone to injury than those who do, no matter what. It isn't something you can deal with through basic supplementation. That is why you see vegans, who even at a healthy weight, look sick or malnourished, even when they claim they supplement.

On top of this, the most annoying fucking thing about vegans is their inability to understand that not every person's body is the same. Some people can go vegan for years, take meticulous care of themselves and still end up suffering some long term health consequence because of it, others may not. When it comes down to it, taking care of my health > being on an illusory moral highground.

>>14396651
Why just fish tho

>>14390488
Nta, but tofu isn't hard to cook properly. I don't know what shit tofu you're getting or recipes you're using.

>>14397304
Every time I try to cook tofu it sticks to the pan and falls apart. Can't cook it like meat at all.

>>14389258
I worked in the meat department of a store for a while and when I had to dispose of meat the vegetarian shit I always dreading because it always smelled like putrid garbage. I don’t know how anyone could ever eat something that smells like it just came from the inside of a bellybutton

>>14396253
Thinly sliced cow tongue pan fried with a bit of salt and lemon is fucking delicious

>>14397320
Have you tried cooking it in a work with a good heap of oil? I only ever cook it Canto style though, haven't had any issues. Also tastes nice if you cook it with sliced pork and let it soak in the fat.

>>14391078
>following a species-appropriate diet is a fallacy
>evolution is a fallacy
This is your brain on plants.

>>14397351
Well, I was a vegetarian when I was eating tofu, so probably eating it with pork lard would make it taste and cook better.

I avoid most vegetable oils.

>>14389258
they taste good, and having been around animals and butchering them myself they are generally so dumb that I don't believe they care about being killed, its just one second not dead the next gone, and chickens are just the worst always sqwaking and raping each other, and if you don't keep them away they will go and eat the heads and guts of the other chickens, cows are better but we have had to help them many times when they get out and they try to get into a feed barrel then they get stuck like a cat and a pringles can, I treat them well during life and make sure to kill them as quickly and painlessly as possible, pigs and cows get shot, chickens get beheaded, geese get shot because they are damm tough.

>>14389737
O B S E S S E D

I've been vegan for eleven years and feel great. I'm 35 and box, training 3x a week.

>>14399159
I don't eat soy, though. Going vegan without over-eating soy and with supplements is hard but the best system

>>14389258
>It tastes good
>My diet is very high in protein
>Soy both tastes awful and causes manboobs

>>14391758
>This argument often overlooks the type of land and land clearing necessary for grazing vs farming.
Some animals graze but a lot are fed plants that had to be grown on good farmland that could have fed 10 times more people if they ate those plants instead

>>14399162
>I don't eat soy
why though? I get my protein from many sources. I understand not wanting to eat soy, but to avoid it altogether seems weird.

>>14399319
>I understand not wanting to eat soy
Sorry, I meant to say

I understand not wanting to JUST eat soy AS YOUR ONLY PROTEIN SOURCE.

>>14389258
a full vegetarian diet is cool but as a person who loves cooking i dont go full vegetarian because i would lack skill in meat recipes, a flexitarian diet i would recomend since its healthy, good for your body and you dont kill any beings

>>14399490

>>14391345
are you that guy who butchered his duck in a thread sometime last week? if so how did it turn out?

>>14399490
Why do they always lump pork with ruminant shit?
It's white meat. I eat pork but I don't eat lamb or beef.

>>14399681
because a cow is a ruminant animal

>>14399678
No but I saw that thread! I'm gonna have to slaughter one of my ducks soon. It's all fucked up due to bad genetics and its painful just looking at it, the other ducks pick on it too.
That guy didn't stun his ducks before slaughtering, I'm gonna be knocking this one out before bleeding it out.

>>14399159
Ok thats nice but what about the people who eat vegan for as long as you have and feel like absolute shit?

>>14389258
>>14389328
>>14390380
Maybe you fucks should offer your "vegan meat" cheaper than real meat instead of 3x the price.
As far as I can tell, all "vegan meats" commercially available so far have been scams to sell a chunk of vegetable-oil-infused plant fiber, that costs like 10 cents to produce for 10$ + for an insane profit margin.

If you can offer a product that is cheaper (x), more nutritious (x) and has taste and texture similar to meat (x), customers will flock to it. Objectively, none of these three has been accomplished yet and so vegan meats are bought for purely ideological reasons for now.

>>14389258
Humans would not be as smart as they are today without meat.
Meat provides nutrients that plants realistically can't. Bioavailability means you absorb more from meat that from plants (e.g. 25% of haem iron from meat is absorbed, but only 5% of non-haem iron from plants is) - plant-based diets are inherently poorly nutritional.
Importing soya from abroad is also much more taxing on the environment than moderate consumption of locally-produced organic meat. Soya contributes to Amazon rainforest destruction and carbon emissions with flight; does a locally-raised animal that tramples in and fertilises the natural pastures on which it lives do the same?

>>14389266
Animal protein is estrogenic. Plants aren't. That includes soy (exogenous plant estrogen in soy does not synthesis in the human body).

You either don't value animals morally at all (as in: murdering a cat for no reason is morally neutral) or you must be vegan if you want to be consistent. Those are really the only two options you can take. If there was a philosophically sound argument against veganism while still caring about animals in a general sense, people would be using it. But there isn't, which is why the standard response to vegans is just "fuck off faggot".

As for the position of not valuing animal life in itself at all, well, most people do (and want to) care about animals in a general sense. Saying you don't value animal life at all and think needlessly killing helpless animals isn't a bad thing is pretty much the position of a sociopath. Maybe some people are okay with that but I'd wager for most people it's not an acceptable position. Thus we can conclude that those people do have to be vegans if they don't want to be hypocrites or logically inconsistent.

But then, who really cares about being "logically consistent" but fedora tipping autists? Think about it.
As for me personally, I don't think you can justify morality in any resolute way just based on empathy alone. Empathy is a garbage fucking starting point for grounding morality. Morality can only be justified if it actually serves human needs. It's like a social contract, you get something out of your behavior in return, this is how society becomes stable. Does being kind to animals serve human needs? No it doesn't. So I don't really see how morality for animals can be justified. It's not like they can sign a social contract. I don't actually get anything out of caring for them (I just do). This sucks because I am an animal lover but I see no way to justify a moral OBLIGATION to be nice to animals. I just do it because I like them. But I know I don't feel morally compelled to be a vegan.

I have nothing against alternative meat products if they offer an experience as good if not better than actual meat.
The beyond meat/impossible stuff is honestly pretty good but still bit too pricey. I'm not a fucking asshole that lies to myself it's a healthier alternative or anything though. If the costs and flavor of these alternatives get even better I see no reason why they don't become more mainstream. Cutting down on factory livestock production isn't a bad thing.

>>14401142
It't not like humans can sign a social contract either.

also bruh bruh there is a middle ground, why you gotta' stratify things.

>>14401142
Listen, I'm gonna release this mouse I nursed back to health tonight, and tomorrow start planning to slaughter my gimp duck and eat him top to bottom, and there's NOTHING you can do about it. There is no consistency in life. Consistency is a fantasy world urban autists live in. Life isn't consistent and that's what makes it beautiful.

>>14390489
>>14390521

>>14389258
Animals are fucking delicious and if it wasn't true these vegan faggots wouldn't be trying so hard to replicate the flavor and texture.

>>14401142
>needlessly killing helpless animals
What do you think happens when acres of land is cleared so we can grow your precious soy beans and lettuce? Millions of insects are killed along with any other animals that might want to eat something as well, in many cases hunters get brought in to cull wild pig or fox populations to stop them ruining the crops. Where exactly does your moral compass point on these issues? Or do you grow everything you eat in a terrarium?

>>14402293
>needlessly

>>14391235
>Being a vegan/vegetarian is peak bourgeoisie virtue signalling as you need to live in an extremely industrialised society and have access to all sorts of unnatural supplements in order to maintain a vegetarian diet and even then, you will run into all sorts of long term health problems.
The majority of India is vegetarian, and I’m pretty sure they don’t usually have long term health problems or take supplements

>>14402314
Doesn't answer the question. You need to be able to explain why killing millions of insects, rabbits, wild pigs, foxes etc to protect crops in order to accommodate your oh-so morally superior diet is fine but killing pigs, chickens, cows, fish etc is wrong.

>>14402386
Yes it does. Animals killed by harvesting crops are by definition not killed "needlessly" since harvesting crops serves a purpose.

>>14402454
>yo lemme avoid this guys question real quick lmfao

>>14402719
>NOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST CORRECT ME AND BE DONE WITH IT!!

>>14402386
In one the killing is necessary to survive. In the other you're just killing to get something more tasty, so you're just killing for pleasure.
Are you going to pretend you didn't understand my answer as well and say I'm also avoiding the question?

>>14389258
ur brother is a retard faggot and so are u.
queer

>>14402758
Both instances count the killing of living creatures as necessary to survive, only one of them is dishonest about killing so that it makes people think they're saving animal lives. You're still not answering the question, how is it that it is better for millions of insects and other wildlife to die versus far fewer livestock lives? How many ants or beetles or gophers are equivalent to one cow or pig?

>>14402386
Killing a few bugs doesn't amount to the billions of chicken Auschwitzed every year.

>>14402770
Because a sizable amount of crops end up feeding cattle. See less cattle, less beetle killed.

>>14402807
Yeah, and factory farming is a horrible practice that needs to end. I source as much as I can from hunters. Is your problem with eating animals or with factory farming specifically?
Also you're talking about a few billion bugs dying for wheat, beans, and whatever else.

>>14389258
There is no god so you're not subject to any higher laws than those humans choose for themselves.

>>14393149
>I'm gonna get my own dairy cow and get the best cream

you're gonna be buying your milk at wal-mart , and it will be loaded with steroids and traces of whatever antibiotics they were feeding to the cow during it's life. It will pasteurized and homogenized and any superior qualities that fresh milk has will be stripped from it completely. And you'll drink it out of a plastic jug that will be leeching plastics hormones and other chemicals into it before you drink it.

>>14402770
No, it's a lot more killing to eat meat since it takes a lot more land to grow crops to feed to animals than to grow crops to eat directly.

>>14402832
>Also you're talking about a few billion bugs dying for wheat, beans, and whatever else.
And 10 times more when you're growing those crops for feeding animals

>>14403154
Does that picture look like it's from walmart?

>>14403238

>Vegans: Supports massive crop monocultures and eats products like corn and soy oil because they don't get any cholesterol in their diet

Livestock: Eats the byproducts of cash crop residue and inedible byproducts from processing said crops

Vegans: ALL CROPS ARE GROWN FOR LIVESTOCK! IF THE WORLD WENT VEGAN WE WOULDN'T NEED THESE CROP MONOCULTURES. ALL THE WORLDS PROBLEMS WOULD BE SOLVED IF WE GENOCIDED THESE DOMESTIC DEMONS

>>14402812
>>14402454
Destroying habitat is totally necessary. Animal ag uses up SOOOO much land and the land they use is SOOO destructive. Ignore the claims that holistically managed livestock grazing actually HEALS the land, reverses desertification and BENEFITS wildlife. Thats not true and we need not look into this claim! We need to concentrate into our megacities and live on imports and never produce anything! Thats what the government says is good and will save the earth!

>>14390112
>murder is a legal term reserved for humanity

cringe. legalism is the most boomer cringe liberal nonsense in existence

>>14389258
probably a huge liberal
just tell him how non-whites are reliant on the meat industry

>>14404488
I mean, would you want to charge people for putting their dogs to sleep? Or what about hitting an animal with a car? Is that vehicular murder? What about the animals that are intentionally killed in crop production? Is that murder? Why is it only murder when someone kills an animal and eats them? Can only humans murder animals and eat them? Or does a lion murder a gazelle when it eats them?

Do you really want to have animal rights?

>>14404541
I'd consider it murder if it was done deliberately. Putting your dog to sleep because it was in pain would be more like euthenasia. If you're just a spoiled brat who kills their dog because you didn't anticipate the time you'd need to spend or something, then yes, I'd consider that murder, and people who do that should go to jail. As for less direct examples, like roadkill and those killed as a byproduct of harvesting crops. Those are also bad and ought to be minimized, but they aren't murder. Not because animals state of rights but because its not deliberate, and indirect. As an example, dozens of people are killed in developing countries working in sweatshops or rare-earth mineral extraction, in the supply chain of electronics sold by the west. But saying any of these deaths are murders by apple/samsung/microsoft etc doesn't make sense to most people. Thats how I see it anyways

>>14404623
in the west*

>>14404623
Those deaths for crops are NOT indirect. If spraying crops (and the homes of these wild animals) with pesticide is not direct and deliberate killing of animals, then gassing the jews with pesticides (zyklon b) was also indirect.

You can't pick and choose which death is more justified. All animals, and in fact all living things fight to live and don't want to die. Just because you waste the flesh they leave behind doesn't make you a better person. Things have to die in order for you to live.

I bet you also support peta, who steals peoples pets and gasses them because "they are suffering just by existing"

P.S If you take supplimental B12 you are supporting the mining of cobalt even more than some jackass who constantly buys the latest smart phone every year. Since you are literally consuming the cobalt and you need to take it all the time.

Also tell me how you can minimize crop deaths on these massive monocultures? Especially when its been shown that you can minimize wildlife suffering by just having cattle on their natural diet. Are you proposing we kill all the wildlife?

>>14389258
The weak should fear the strong

>>14389258
I have this idea of banning fast food, I think it would solve a lot of ethical problems by itself. This is only if we get a super strict Communist society because Twitter demands it.

I would make 'Meat Holidays' where people can consume meats, these are just July 4th and whatnot. Also hunting for population control still is a thing, a lot of peoples exposure to meat might be from deer.

Personally, the abomination of the country is just this casual meat eating like "oh i don't know what to do, I guess eat McDonalds for the 7th time this week" if we got people down to an average of eating meat once a week but it was super high quality and delicious, I think we would eat 90% less and still be happy.

>>14404909
But if you kill one high quality cow, you can eat off it almost daily for a year, especially if you eat nose to tail.
I mean, shoot, your average commercial breed hog can get to on average 600-1000 lbs, a heritage organic cow gets heavier. So you could eat one lb of meat a day and still have enough meat to last you another year.

I agree getting rid of fast food would be great though. Vegans seem to support fast food more and more, since their food sucks and is difficult to prepare satisfying meals from scratch, and to top it off they are malnourished so they lose the energy to prepare said foods, so they desperately seek out highly processed animal mimicking food from fast food places.

I wouldn't rely strictly on hunting. Without animal husbandry of domestic livestock, poaching might become more prevalent and we would quickly run out of wildlife.

>>14404868
Monocultures have nothing to do with veganism, in fact, large parts, even the majority of monocultures go towards feeding livestock. Monocultures like wheat, corn, soy, palm, aren't even good for you. If you need to use it you should be able to source it locally, and from farms that don't use methods that ruin the terrain, use pesticides, kill local animals.

As for whether those animal deaths are indirect or not, I'd say they're not because they're not intentional. When you kill jews, you know you're killing jews, whether you do it with cyclon B or whatever. When you're making meat, that process inveitably involves killing an animal. With monocultures its merely a byproduct of a certain way of production. I have a private garden, and I can supply myself with enough food to eat. Only really buy fancy stuff like certain fruits that won't grow in my area, and I've never killed an animal, except some insects if you count that. However, if you want to "produce" your own meat, thats inevitably going to require you to kill an animal, so its intrinsic and deliberate thats what I see as the difference. Now this is mostly semantic. If it was the case that monocultures killed as many sentient animals as keeping livestock does, it'd be morally as bad as eating livestock, even though it technically isn't murder. The evidence that this is the case is extremely weak though.

As for "eating b12 is worse than buying electronics because you have to do it every day", thats just very dumb. B12 is produces synthetically using yeast and sugar. It requires very little of anything. Your argument is like saying using an electric tooth brush is worse for the environment than leasing a 200ft yacht because you're only gonna use the yacht a week.

>>14404909
I would support this even though Im vegan. Fast food is terrible. If people had to have a more conscious relationship with the food they're eating they'd probably eat less garbage/meat anyways.

>>14404961
seethe more

>>14389258
>Which are some arguments you have in favour of it?
I like it so fuck off and stop trying to sell me on your shit, thanks

>>14405003
You don't get it, do you? Even on a small scale, if a farmer is trying to sell their crop, they have to ruin the terrain, use pesticides, and kill local animals. Even you admit that you had to kill "some insects". How did you kill them? Did you squish them? Did you crystalize their bodies from the inside? Did you poision them? If an animal ate your poisioned insects will they get sick?

I also have a private garden, and I am very adamant against using any unnatural pesticides. Anything that gets destroyed by insects becomes food for my livestock (who provide better nutrition for me). No flesh is wasted. If anything, the stuff I grew as livestock fodder (wheat, borage, alfalfa, etc) has done the best as far as pest resistance goes.

Why is it okay for you to kill insects, who clearly are sentient beings who don't want to die, and you waste their flesh, but it's not okay for me to kill my livestock? Insects are animals too, just because they are small doesn't mean they don't have families and personalities. Haven't you ever seen a wolf spider carry her babies on her back? Or a mantis chase a lazer pointer like a cat?

And I'd like to see you live 100 percent off what you grow. Which means sourcing your own fat, no coconut, olive, or vegetable oils unless you can grow and press the seeds yourself.

Good luck being a vegan who doesn't suck bayer monstanto dick.

You can keep telling yourself that domestic animals, no matter how they are raised, are the worst thing in the world for the environment and they need to be eradicated.

You can say you aren't "intentionally" killing your "pest" animals all you want. You are still killing things that don't want to die..

>>14397543
has nothing to do with ethics.

>>14389328
Man has dominion over nature.

>>14389258
I don't care if you want to be vegetarian, but don't buy those beyond burgers. They are absurdly over priced considering what they're made of

>>14405003
You are still unable to justify why insects or other animals that will try to eat those crops are worth less than that of livestock.
>and I've never killed an animal, except some insects if you count that
You should you if you want to claim to be anything close to philosophically consistent. If one of the founding principles of veganism is that killing animals is wrong then you don't get to decide that killing some animals is fine.