/ck/ - Food & Cooking

>>4179300
I snuck into the business through the back door essentially. I was lucky enough to know three butchers over the years that I've been working at the local grocery store (two old generation one new generation). I was trained by the 3 guys in the back over the first year that I was there and I picked up additional knowledge as the years went on. All of the butchers are gone from the business since the old guys retired (in their mid-late 70's) and the new generation butcher left for another business since he could get paid his manager's rate for being a regular floor worker at another location. In the years that they were there, however, they taught me how to cut every single boxed piece and told me about separation of primals in a real beef/carcass. The real learning came when my friend killed his first deer. I got to apply everything I had been told by the butchers to a real animal. The person who enlisted my help had been butchering his own deer for years, and said he was so impressed with the cuts that I've been cutting for him ever since.

Poultry was the easiest to learn, but the biggest pain in the ass because of all the feathers and pin feathers. Breaking down whole fryers is a great place to start. Once you know the anatomy of the bird, you can buy the whole thing, take out what you want for dinner, and use the rest for stock (they typically come with giblets stuffed in them) and soups. It's a great experience to learn how to cut up a whole fryer because they're typically cheap (less than $2/lb in most areas) and you can get everything out of them.

In honesty, it is definitely a dying trade except for where butchers are getting their modern jobs... typically modern butchers work for wholesaling companies and cut the meat from carcass to sub primals and then they package them for stores. Machines aren't helping, but there's just not the same need for butchers as there used to be (from a store's view).

>>4179238
Good stuff. I don't know of butchering books/game books at my local library, but it's nice to know that there's libraries out there that have them.

I suppose books can be a decent source of information, but nothing beats hands-on training and observational techniques.

Glad to hear the book was enough for you to break down your deer though. There's a lot more to cutting meat than just getting the pieces into roasts and steaks though. I think that the poster would also be interested in knowing what parts are good for what, where they come from in the animal, grain/textural knowledge for muscles in the animals, and some other fun factoids. While books can be a great source of information, apprenticeships and hands on experience (in my opinion) are best suited for learning cuts of animals.

I'm glad to hear the book worked well for you though.

>>4179207
That's a solid question. Typically salts and nitrates are used as preservatives, so depending on how you use them it could effect the overall productivity of your efforts. I haven't experimented with it myself, so I hesitate to give you an answer in detail- but do know that preservatives will repel bacterial growth in moderate to high saturation levels. So if you're looking for the fastest growth and the most productivity for your time, I would avoid the salts and the nitrates (especially in higher concentrations)

>>4179166
That's a complicated sort of question. For a real aged beef, you'll want a temperature controlled area with controlled humidity. If you're just concerned with a basic dry aged beef... you can do it in the fridge at your house (assuming no one will complain about having aging/rotting (essentially) beef in your fridge) by wrapping it in a bunch of cheese cloth. I don't recommend home-aging... but if you're going to do it make sure there's adequate fat on the piece you're buying. Be sure to know that the piece you buy will be shrinking not only due to the aging process, but will also end up shrinking more because you'll need to trim off the aged, dry exterior of the beef that is currently harboring fungal and bacterial colonies in it. Aged beef looks like hell before you trim it. The loss is acceptable, as the flavor gets much more intense than it would have been otherwise due to the natural breakdown of the enzymes of the beef and the assisting of the bacterias that will also be assisting in the breakdown.

If you decide to do it, be careful to keep an eye on the meat and make sure that nothing else is 'contributing' to the aging process. You also wouldn't want to let it go for much more than 5-7 days at a house unless you're ready to lose a LOT of weight from the piece. Obviously the longer it sits, the more you're going to need to sacrifice and the smaller the piece will naturally become due to shrinkage and drying of the beef, and from the bacterial colonies that will be attempting to claim your beef.

If you have more questions, please let me know.

>>4178874
We would absolutely clean pork intestines before selling them if we were a full slaughterhouse. How it currently stands, we order in our hog casings for our sausage from another company- and the sanitation of the intestines is actually a huge deal to the quality of the casing. If there's any residues left, the sausage (and the casing) become worthless due to contamination. Therefore, we can only order from the highest quality casing companies for general public sale.

Cleaning the intestines properly, however, is a pain in the ass. So I'm actually glad we pay the $16-18 a pound to get quality casings in.

Same thing goes for pig stomachs... There was a fiasco with them a few years back, but now they're being properly cleaned again and it's not an issue.

>>4178877
I haven't really turned away from any meats since I started working in the profession. The only thing I don't have any desire to use anymore is Eye Round. If you're looking for lean beef, you've got the right piece. If you're looking for a great steak/roast, look elsewhere. It also costs 5.49/lb at my store. Might as well be used for 93% beef... it'd sell better that way. But if it was all Eye Round the beef would be shit anyway... it's complicated to make good ground beef for a great color and good taste.

I also tend to shy away from any hotdog that's not all beef. If I'm worried about salami and bologna, I'll make them myself when I process a deer for a friend. Summer sausage and what not is delicious when done fresh. Knowing what goes into it and making it yourself from non-scrap and non-'leftover' beefs makes all the difference in the world for processing your own meats.

Good morning /ck/! I'll be online for a few hours if anyone has any questions.

>>4178845
For the pot roast it depends on if you want it to hold together in pieces, or shred itself apart. The Chuck Roast will rip apart very well based on the structure of the muscle whereas a Bottom Round, Rump, Bolar roast or Chuck Tender roast will hold together quite well. I would say your best bets (for the cost) are Chuck Roast (as it has adequate fat and excellent qualities) and the Rump roast (marbling and tenderness) so long as you're letting it sit for a long duration in the pot.

You can always ask questions about the beef that they may not know... Using secondary names for cuts still confuse me on occasion. Ask for English roasts/steaks (shoulder meat), silverside or gooseneck (both bottom round) sometime and see what they give you. Or if you have a real butcher, ask for a baron of beef or poderosa hip if you're looking to entertain for company and see what they try to sell you (pic related)

>>4178873
We don't mind answering questions at all typically. If I'm having a bad day in the shop, sometimes the questions make me feel better knowing that I'm furthering someone's learning.

If I would cut myself while working, the piece that gets contaminated with blood would either be thrown out, or I would take it home for my dinner; as typically cleaning it or refacing the piece would fix the problem- but I'd rather not risk customer health or satisfaction for a single piece of beef on such an important sanitation instance.

As far as the horse meat goes... Horse meat used to be relatively prevalent in the market for centuries in the past; in Europe the shops had to be properly marked with signs so people knew what the meat was. In the US, we have to label each product with its own individual label... so if there's horse meat involved, we would have to label it. You wouldn't find horse meat in anything at the shop I work at, and it is rarely found in local stores.

Headed to bed for the night /ck/. If you have more questions post them and I'll answer your questions when I wake up.

>>4178420

When I get them the skin is still in tact- the only thing missing is the innards from the field dressing. I've not been allowed to keep the hide yet, but perhaps next time I'm working on a deer I will hold the hide and have it tanned.

It's possible that if a butcher is processing something for you that you could get the hide back. It's unlikely that the butcher would keep hides on his person for later sale unless he knew someone was interested. You could try asking a local butcher before a season or harvest that you're looking for a particular type of skin or hide and he might be willing to save it and sell it to you. You'd need to get it from him shortly after it's harvested though so you can have it cleaned and tanned properly.

In short, ask around and see if they'd be willing to sell them to you. I know I'd probably keep the hides for myself since I intend to tan them anyway- but it's worth a shot.

>>4178396
I'm saging to try to protect the bump limit. If the thread goes on for a few days, I'll be happy that I saged a few times so that it'll return to where people can access it again when it needs to return to the front few pages.

I'm glad you're finding the information useful. I'm sorry I don't do more with offal though. I do know the hearts are also good to use for giving dogs medicine as well. If you put a pill into the ventricle of the heart, it'll eat the heart without thinking anything of it, and the pill will be taken.

Chicken livers are also great for cat fishing if that's down your alley too.

Chicken necks and backs are good for crabbing- they go nuts for them.

Thanks for your compliment about the thread as well. I appreciate it.

>>4178351
I actually haven't done much with rabbits or other smaller game. My friend is doing what he calls a "Wildlife Killspree" where he'll attempt to kill any living creature that moves while he's out hunting this season since he hasn't seen a deer in his typical hunting grounds for two years now. If he brings anything back for me, I'll post some videos on YouTube and you'll be able to look into it.
For the present time, however, I'm afraid I would be unable to help you at the current time with knowledge about the animals. However, if you have some local markets, you might be able to find them there. If you have a processing house near by (that does game processing), sometimes they'll keep a small portion of each animal they harvest in addition to being paid that they might be willing to part with. Otherwise, look for someone you know that likes to hunt and try to get in on their share.

>>4178355
Pork shanks (smoked) are also called "ham hocks"- they make for excellent soups due to their smoky flavor and the small amount of meat that they provide. It's typically a ham and bean soup that you make with it. If you can find those, they're typically relatively inexpensive and they add a lot to the pot.

>>4178359
Chicken offal is something that most people have specific recipes that they'll stand by and they won't use anyone else's- or at least that's how they act around my house. The hearts can be cooked/simmered in a pan with butter and your choice of seasonings if you so desire. They can also be sliced up and added to other dishes for baking, if that's more down your alley. I typically don't cook much offal, but a lot of people around where I'm from do. The livers are typically pan fried or deep fried (if that's your thing), and the gizzards are used often in recipes from other countries. I don't have much advice on the gizzards though... sorry.
To purchase them, check at a local market if your supermarkets or grocery stores are unable to pull them in for you.

>>4178342

I know of two joint connective places with the thigh. There's a joint that goes between the drum and the thigh, and a joint that connects the thigh to the lower portion of the bird. The piece that connects toward the lower portion of the bird is sometimes called "the kernel" where the joint connects in a ball and socket type of connection that you can cut between. The other portion is between the drum and the thigh. To separate them, you can look for a thin fat line and feel around there to know where to slide the knife between. I don't know that there is necessarily a legendary spot that makes for the juiciest and most tender part of the whole bird, but the dark meat is certainly more juicy and flavorful than the white meat. It's also "not as healthy for you" as the doctors would say.

>>4178316
Oh, sorry. I took that question as it would pertain to beef (typically people in my area are mostly concerned with beef). I deal with beef, veal, lamb, chicken, turkey, bison, and venison. I try to stray from lamb and veal when I can aside from grinds- as they rarely sell on the counter or packaged when we send them across and it's quite expensive for the store to even pull in.

If you have a particular meat you're interested in, please ask and I'll direct my attention toward the other meats for your answer. If it's meat in general, I'll give you whatever information I can give you for cheap deals.

>>4178310
It depends on where you get it.

The main reason you would want to do it yourself is so you can keep the meat in the original cryo-vac it comes in (assuming you're getting it from a grocery store, and not a local butcher store/establishment). Cryo-vacs can last for weeks if you need time to clear out your freezer for the meat you'll be bringing home.

If you're not worried about that, the meat cutters will typically charge you the price of the meat before it's weighed, and then do whatever you tell them to do. Just keep an eye on them while they're cutting though, as they will often cut quickly and aimlessly-- especially at grocery stores. It's possible to lose a decent amount of weight if they're cutting carelessly and they'll just put some of your meat back into their lugs to cut for a later date. Honest stores wouldn't dare. But I've seen them do it at a few stores while I've been shopping close to my house when I was a little short for dinner.

Long and short- they should be willing to help assuming you pay for the original weight; so long as you don't need to take a few days to make room in the freezer for the other pieces of roast you'll get (or steaks if you like swiss steaks/braising steaks).

>>4178283
You can definitely get good soup from the cheek/neck meat and bones. I actually don't know anywhere where you can order a beef head though unless it's a local butcher. I don't have a pricing guide for that either.

The cheapest readily available piece of beef is typically the bottom round. If you have room in a freezer, you can get the whole bottom round. Typically you can expect a discount if you buy the entire piece. All you'd really have to do is trim the top cab and cut straight down. You'd also have to watch out for the silverside though. I have a video on youtube showing how to cut a whole bottom round. It's angus, but you'd get the idea. It's nice and slow too for learning about the piece.

Uncommon pieces in my area are tail, tripe, kidney (pretty much any offal), beef spare ribs (expensive around here) and shoulder clods. All of which are more expensive than the bottom round when it's on sale (with exception of the tail).

>>4178270
If I ever had a shop, I wouldn't take shit from the customers either. I might not be quite as crazy in the return fire... but maybe if she deserved it I'd find a way to make sure she knew she was a "special" customer in my book.

We had customers take stickers off of bottom round roasts and put them over the fillet mignon price tags before. They got their full fillet (8lbs) for like 16.50 or some shit. I wanted to wreck them, but we're not allowed to get physical or voice our observation to the customers. They'll rob you blind if you don't put them in their place.

>>4178251
This is a very good option. Neck bone and oxtail are great for soups and stocks. I just don't typically have them on hand at the store, so I didn't bother mentioning them (as they're a specialty order most places around where I live).

>>4178223
I'll see what I can do about the recipes.

I was in the shop last week doing my normal business playing defense on the front counter (taking orders from customers, giving them items from our reach in case and cutting when needed for specialty items) when I had a huge hippo-looking broad get up in my face about the importance of a proper piece of meat for her 'holier than thou rich people's dinner'. She desired a lean piece of meat- so I began going over her options of fillet mignon, select grade New York Strips (as choice starts to have better marbling), and a few other generic steaks. She began telling me that they're not at all what she's looking for, and that I wouldn't know a good steak if it came up and bit me in the face. The regulars in the store were starting to feel uncomfortable as I began explaining to her what her options were from a standpoint of lean, tender meats (when cooked properly, of course). She got extremely loud and demanded a leaner cut... at this time, she saw the Eye Round steak in the case (Angus) and said that if it was leaner, she'd buy two whole Eye Rounds.

I decided to abide, and grabbed her to Select grade Eye Rounds. Typically, I wouldn't advise it- as they're notoriously lean and typically people end up over cooking them. However, she demanded it, so I got it for her. I explained that the fat on the outside would be an asset to keeping the crappy meat alive. She asked for ALL the fat to be removed from it, and even told me that if I delved into the meat some to remove all the exterior fat cab, she would be alright with paying for the lost meat.

After a few minutes of attempting to help her out, I ended up caving in and doing what she told me. I feared for my life and my job since she was essentially grabbing a shit-bomb cocktail, as the bitch was loud, obnoxious, and apparently very wealthy and well known.

I received thanks the next day.
-Everything went better than expected.

>>4178210

I have yet to run into one since I've been at the shop (7 years or so). We definitely run into some bloodshot pieces or have some pieces that are terribly marbled or obviously mistreated beefs... But I've never ran into puss-filled meats or even spoiled meats.

The worse I saw since I've been here is a bloodshot piece of chuck roast with a broken cryo-vac. We had to discount the piece in order to sell it because it looked bad. It also had a little bit of blue dye on it since it was marked when it was processed at the facility it came from. Nothing was really wrong with it, it just looked unappetizing.

If you mean ever... Then I did have a deer one time that had the stomach hit by a knife when it was being field cleaned. I had to deal with bile-ridden meat in the lower quarter and some of the lower ribs had to be sacrificed from the side because of the contamination.

>>4178187

If you're looking for roasts, stewing pieces, jerky making beefs, or something different from a steak, please let me know and I'll reconsider my answer for your particular needs.

>>4178187
The region and community environment effect the prices of particular pieces of beef. In my area, the best "cheap" cut would have to be Top Sirloin (commonly just called "Sirloin") or Steakhouse Sirloin. When they show up on sale in a store, they're one of the first steaks I would pick. I can see them for around 4.99/lb on sale in stores- though they're typically 8.99-9.99/lb in the local area.

They're typically fairly lean with decent fat coverage on the exterior and some stores on the interior as light marbling.

The Steakhouse Sirloin is a smaller piece off the top of the Top Sirloin that is better marbled, and is more tasteful and tender. I typically use them for tender tips if I'm not cutting a lot of fillets for the shelves or for customers.

>>4178147
Absolutely. Lamb is going through the roof lately, and mutton in general is becoming a less occurrent item to be sold in stores. At my store, fats that aren't attached to much meat are often discarded or thrown into the composting bin. I'm not really sure why they don't want to stock mutton or fats, but I suppose not enough people use it anymore to make it worthwhile getting in such a sensitive piece for the cost it'd take to bring it in and not sell a lot of it.

>>4178156
Trade school, apprenticeships, and shadowing. If you could find a job as a meat cutter or butcher without training, hop on it. The trade is dying off and there's less and less people who know how to do it ever year. I'm the youngest person I know that can still process a legged animal from a full carcass.
-On the job training for the position isn't nearly as common as it used to be.

>>4178157
I'm actually not a fan of beef tripe.
However, oxtail soup can be an absolutely delicious delicacy if you know how to properly make it. You can use cheek meat, neck meat, and tail (depending on if you get it as a bony tail, or a tail with some meat still on it... not that there's much on there) to make some very delicious bases and add whatever else you want to the pot for eating and more flavor.

>>4178141
If I were to share all of my terrible/hilarious butcher stories, I would probably hit the bump limit. I can give you one I ran into last week though, if you'd like.

For stock, I used to use marrow bones... But if I'm working with a lot of rib-eyes, I'll steal the beef spare ribs so I can get some fat, bone, and a little bit of meat for additional flavor. If you're picking (affordable) bones and just bones, I'd say marrow bones and knuckle bones fit the budget and should work relatively well for you.

I'm not the best with demi glaces, but my uncle is a phenomenal cook. If I see him before the thread dies, I'll ask for some of his recipes.

Braising... Well, the "Braising steak" is typically a bottom round, but they're not the best. You can really braise any piece of meat you'd like- it's just down to a cost-to-efficiency ratio. I suppose the bottom round would fit the bill if it needed to. I'm not sure what your budget would look like for it though.

Customers can request any thickness of steak they'd like, but it has to come from sub primals, as we only have boxed beef at the grocery store. If it was from my garage or wherever I'm cutting for a friend, that's absolutely possible.

>>4178110

Unless you mean they're charging outrageous prices for shank meat and knuckle bones/knuckle meat... then that's completely crazy.

>>4178110

The best way to learn about meat cutting would be through an apprenticeship if you have a local butcher. Another way would be to go to a technical institution for it, as there are trade schools to learn how to butcher/cut meat. If you have grocery stores near your house that have meat cutters, you could get a job there and peek in on them/ask them to take you under their wing while they're cutting. It depends on how deeply involved you'd like to get with your meat cutting.

Typically "Stew Meat" is cut from the Round primal, and could be used for roasts or crock pots/slow cooking. The price of beef is steadily rising, and cheap beef is not as easily obtained as it once was. Other than that, I have no explanation for why stew beef is as expensive as it is.

>>4178119
I work at a local grocery store and cut meat there (boxed meat, but it's better than just stocking shelves). However, I was trained by old butchers that worked there and harvest and butcher for all my friends when they hunt and get sides of beef. I learned the old school slaughter methods and learned about proper beef preparation. Unfortunately, I don't work full time with it.