Universal Basic Income

[Anonymous No.8496213]

I'd like to thanks biz for acknowledging the merits of a UBI, because we now moved on to the problems of its implementation. Fortunately, in the case of USA, the only country that matters, a simple reorganization of the current welfare would mean LESS tax for the rich. So no relocation of businesses is necessary.

I'd like to point out something another anon replied to this point, he said that no one in their right mind would continue working to feed everyone who doesn't. That doesn't make much sense considering that they would be paying LESS tax (AKA more money) if a UBI would be implemented. I am a capitalist so I think more money for me is the only important thing. Regarding being a capitalist, I am quite disappointed that the other anon I was arguing with a few hours ago made a slightly communist suggestion regarding population growth; he said that we should limit it. As far as I know, among relevant countries, only Communist China does this.. I agree with him, however, that communism should be considered a mental disorder.

[Anonymous No.8496294]

>It’s another UBI thread on /biz/
We’re getting closer to pre-inundation /biz/, I can feel it.
>>8496213
This isn’t an answer to the question: where does this money come from? Especially if less tax is to be paid.

[Anonymous No.8496311]

Fuck off with this communist shit

[Anonymous No.8496346]

>>8496294
current welfare and all accompanying socialist programs is more expensive than a capitalist UBI

[Anonymous No.8496376]

>>8496213
Fuck off with this shit. Yes technological unemployment is coming. Yes full automation is coming. In this world we wouldn't need currency anymore, UBI would just be to ensure that the plebs only get breadcrumbs like they do now.

[Anonymous No.8496460]

>>8496376
That sounds like a communist world anon. I want to perpetuate the current capitalist system which is why I am for a UBI. Let the plebs be plebs, we need to give them money so they can keep on being consumers. We NEED to have plebs, so that I can be rich. The one you are proposing, that there wouldn't be currency anymore, iirc, is an inherent part of communism. You should be in a mental hospital.

[Anonymous No.8496539]

UBI in return for sterilization.

[Anonymous No.8496599]

>>8496213

lmao, ubi is not to make your life decent, just to survive.

if a guy with a ubi and part time job can smoke pot, live in a cubicle and eat i'm fine. He'll be a pleb forever.

As for pop growth, we barely have enough resources with this ratio of consumption for 2 generations. If africa level of consumption rises with the expected rise of population + india and china expected trends...

We are at the limit of the current system

[Anonymous No.8496733]

>>8496213
>greetings fellow capitalists

[Anonymous No.8496753]

>>8496346
Yeah but if it is reorganized, how much money would I get a month/year?

>>8496376
Technological automation is coming, but not so quickly that we'll be able to skip over the middle UBI kind of phase
The fact of the matter is that total automation is coming likely in ~150 to 200 years, with sundry levels of unemployment coming between now and then

[Anonymous No.8496794]

>>8496539
>Fewer white people since the only lands with UBI will be majority white

[Anonymous No.8496932]

>>8496460
You idiot, you'd be richer in a moneyless economy than you would even if you was a billionaire in a monetary one

[Anonymous No.8496948]

>>8496753
>150 to 200 years
This anon doesn't understand the exponential function

[Anonymous No.8496958]

>>8496213
>UBI

UBI is the latest opium of the people. Only, unlike religion, UBI is is fake.

SV pushed out the propaganda to comfort slaves so that they'd feel comfortable that everything would be OK after all the jobs get automated away; the meme caught on.

Reality is, the world is fucked unless we start killing off the worthless people.

If there is one thing I know, there have to be rich people and there have to be poor people. Evolution has stamped that in our DNA.

This problem has no short-term solution other than a bodycount and heavy State controls. Expect misery within 10 years.

[Anonymous No.8496964]

>>8496376

Full automation is a meme that will never happen within the next five generations

[Anonymous No.8496985]

>>8496948
This anon believes to heavily in Ray kurzweil but doesn't work in a technical field

[Anonymous No.8497147]

>>8496294
>where does this money come from?
redistributed from the multi trillionaire families who rule over the entire world. the idea that there must be rich and poor - that there must be social classes in society - is so outdated. give me one reason why the rothschild family deserves to have that much money. pro tip: you can't. automation will give us the ability to produce food and other products without needing a person working to produce it. what happens then? will you put people to work, just to "make them useful" or "make them earn it"? what about the person in control of deciding who "earns it"? what does that person do to earn that privilege? releasing humans from the need of being subjects in another man's dreams would only be beneficial to everyone, including the so-called "elites". a world in which everyone is free to pursue their own dreams and has the basic needs satisfied, is a world with less crime, less violence and more overall happiness. think of the boost in creativity and other human expressions that have been suppressed for thousands of years (such as spirituality for example). There are other ways for humans to add value to this world, other than desperately working any shit job for a bunch of soulless narcissists just to put food on the table.

[Anonymous No.8497240]

>>8497147
Easier said than done. How do you plan on getting trillionaire families to redistribute all their wealth? Also there have always been social classes, even in societies that are economically pretty equal. It's like cliques in high school, it's just part of human nature

[Anonymous No.8497278]

>>8497147
In short: the technocrats who control the new technological world will pay UBI for everyone. What is the point of increased production if no one has money to buy the products. Their capitalist system NEEDS a constant demand from consumers. So, they will have to create consumers by giving people UBI, or accept the total collapse of their system. The creation of a class of robotic workers controlled by technocrats and a class of consumers who live to consume... This is the end goal of capitalism, right? The free labor done by the robots will justify the UBI.

[Anonymous No.8497298]

>>8496958
You realize you opinion counts for nothing right?
I read this shit through and I see
>hurr durr opium of the people
>hurr durr propaganda
>hurr Durr 'comfort slaves'
>World is fucked unless we start killing off X people

So first of all anyone who wants to avoid this shitty world where people are killed for X reason (because everyone with this kind of argument has their own special X of person to be killed off) will discard your opinion.
Secondly, your position only even MATTERS if there really is going to be 'misery in the next 10 years' which we'll have to see about, but likely will not happen.
And thirdly, based on your statement of how there 'has to be rich people and poor people' I'm guessing you're angry at this thread for what you see to be its communist-ness, when in reality we here on /biz/ are probably all stronger capitalists than the average normie.
We are just trying to THINK about things; a potential reorganization of the current shitty welfare drains on the economy, and yet I doubt that you are out there protesting against the biggest welfare program of all, social security.
>Also, nice reddit spacing

>>8497147
And wow just as soon as I got done typing the above post, this faggot comes in from the other side being as much of a faggot.
Can you guys just leave?
>We're ready not talking about anything more major than reorganizing the current system of money flow that already goes to bloated programs like SS and welfare programs of sundry kinds, so that they actually help people not keep them poor
Greentext for visibility.

[Anonymous No.8497324]

>>8497240
Answer:
>>8497240

[Anonymous No.8497345]

>>8497240
Answer*:
>>8497278

[Anonymous No.8497390]

>>8496213
We didn’t acknowledge the value of it we said that you deserved to be thrown out of a helicopter for attempting to loot money from people who earned it and give it to people who had nothing to do with its creation. Only a goddamn commie could be this deluded. If the millions of dead bodies caused by your philosophy won’t dissuade you logic won’t do a thing to help I guess. So to the helicopter you go

[Anonymous No.8497412]

>>8496213
It would absolutely decimate prices.

Sorry anon you need to get a job

[Anonymous No.8497436]

There should be kilometers long glory hole walls in every city. Every morning the unemployed should line up for work there. A fair pay would ve €30 a day for this

[Anonymous No.8497440]

>>8497412
Holy shit, a real argument!
Found in the wild?!?

[Anonymous No.8497477]

>>8497390
under our "capitalist" system, the richest families in this world became rich from war profiteering. we're talking the World War kind of war. they didn't "earn it" more than the poor man who loads heavy bags of grain into a truck for a living. remove the elite ball sack from your mouth.. it's preventing the oxygenation of your brain.

[Anonymous No.8497480]

>>8496213
UBI + my own weed plants + VR and word depopulation (95%+ reduction to about 500M) so nature is way less crowded is my version of heaven.

[Anonymous No.8497527]

The same people that support UBI are the same people who use the phrase "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" as a criticism of capitalism, are the same people who say they won't be working the fields under communism.

Everyone that supports these proven ineffective policies think they are just going to get a check every month to stay at home and play video games games

Even as a "civilized society", humans still have to follow basic rules of nature. He who does not work does not eat

>>8497477
>elites abused everything to get rich
>We'll fix this by forcing everyone to be serfs

[Anonymous No.8497574]

>>8497480
I think we can handle 2 billion
500 million is just too lonely; there was already 1 billion in 1804

[Anonymous No.8497586]

>desperately working any shit job for a bunch of soulless narcissists just to put food on the table.

This is me rn

[Anonymous No.8497610]

>implement UBI
>scrap welfare, give the poor a salary instead
>poor people continue to make shit decisions with money
>poor people complain that they cant afford anything
>leftists scream that the only solution is to give them more money

This is a recursive problem, the only solution is to get rid of the terminally poor...

[Anonymous No.8497672]

>>8497477
That’s nice but I have to friends named augusto and gavrillo that I’m going to link you up with. They are much better at these discussions than I am.

[Anonymous No.8497736]

>>8496985
Ray kurzweil is a fucking idiot though

[Anonymous No.8497748]

>>8497736
That was broadly my point

[Anonymous No.8497752]

kill yourself leftypol
if you make this thread again Ill dox you

[Anonymous No.8497770]

>>8497527
>>8497390
>>8497147
>>8496958
>>8496733
You guys don't seem to understand the debate going on here and should pls leav
If you believe there will be a dystopian world blah blah blah with UBI, then you MUST believe the same will happen under the current system, and yet I don't see active "let's get rid of social security" (aka communism for old people) threads every so often on /biz/, but I do see active UBI ones
So get in the game and debate your point if you really want to, but don't just jump in this thread and complain about how 'da system iz broke!'
SS eats up 2 fucking thirds of the budget anyway!

>>8497527
Also, to you specifically anon, you say "proven ineffective" policies, but this is not the case, the only widescale experiments of UBI that have been done are underway now, and so far they are showing positive outcomes, though I am still skeptical

>>8497610
The only -kinda- argument I found of these is this guy's
I'm not sure whether it would be a recursive problem of the govt giving people more and more money, I think the same could be done under this system, though more insidiously
We would have to make it hard to increase the number paid out, then it could become a way to rally against wanton increases until inflation renders them needed

[Anonymous No.8497802]

anyone who doesn't support UBI (or some sort of it) is basically a retard.

[Anonymous No.8497824]

>I don't want to work.
>I want to plays my videogames all day.
>Why make life changes when I can live with mom and dad until I'm 30?
>Girls don't want me.
>Give me UBI.

Why are leftists so concerned with eliminating personal responsibility and blaming all of life's problems on society?

[Anonymous No.8497880]

>>8496213
>>implying the free market would not immediately raise prices to accomodate the capital flow increase

[Anonymous No.8497911]

>>8497824
Morelike
>I want to eat
>I want to be a NEET
>I want to fap to feet
>give me my plebby treat

>>8497880
This has been one of the only sturdy arguments against put forth in this thread

[Anonymous No.8497933]

>>8496213
>>2027
>>UBI has been implemented by seventeen nation-states around the world via a trackable cryptographic block ledger system and tokens
>>only the poor use crypto
>>the rich scorn non-cash users

[Anonymous No.8497962]

>>8497278
Fair enough. But UBI in this sense would only be a mild expansion of the existing welfare system in Scandinavian and certain other European countries. It would only be enough to meet basic needs. So there would be a large poor underclass living on just UBI, a small middle class who has the few jobs that still need to be done by humans, and a capitalist class who owns the means of production. Not much different than the current system, expect that the poor wouldn't have to work. Not sure where the incentive is make the UBI amount more than the minimum needed- if anything it would be driven by robots/techonology become so productive that it continues to drive costs down, allowing people to afford more with their UBI income. This might actually be deflationary, allowing UBI income to go down over time.

[Anonymous No.8498085]

>>8497147
I agree with you, except (1) children should still be made to do stuff that builds character/smarts/etc, and (2) there are a lot of black people in America (for instance) who already get everything provided for them with welfare, and they still insist on joining gangs, raping, killing, and so on. Regardless of wealth, some people are genetically worthless. We could never have UBI until we fix the problem of hordes of worthless people.

Also, anyone who argues that we need consumers so we need UBI is retarded, because consumers who don’t also produce aren’t creating any wealth. Ultimately that money has to come from somewhere. If it doesn’t come from plebs bc they don’t have jobs, and rich people pay less taxes too, then where does it come from?

Regardless of the system, we should have stopped having wars centuries ago, and the reason we continue isn’t because of a lack of resources, it’s because some elites, who have a strange anti-human religion, want wars to continue. Ultimately they want the human race extinct, because they are insane and don’t even regard themselves as human. To me, UBI for all people seems like a step in the direction of human excinction.

[Anonymous No.8498109]

So this is the oft quoted chart of the US federal budget (from wikipedia, 2016)

There would obviously have to be a period where we pay off the people already in the SS system, but how would you divide the money going to it after that?
Would you have a truly Universal UBI, or would there actually be a cut off point?

>If you just take the 1.498 Trilly going to SS and Medicare right now, divided by some 325 million people, you get about $4,600 per person per year
This is why I would have a cut off somewhere around the 50th percentile earner mark ($~56,000 I think), which on a side note could become like a cool badge of status in society, like haha I'm officially better than half the people, I am the upper half, but I digress

[Anonymous No.8498112]

>>8496213

Sounds too good to be true. Youre a faggot

[Anonymous No.8498154]

>>8498085
>human excintion
You are sooo duuumb
See
>>8497298

[Anonymous No.8498155]

>>8496213
>I'd like to thanks biz for acknowledging the merits of a UBI, because we now moved on to the problems of its implementation.
Fucking how?

We already covered this in last night's thread you mongoloid. The only way you could implement an EFFECTIVE UBI and not some piss allowance of $100 a person would mean to tax the shit out of everything which would drive away businesses and industry and driving prices up even higher.

That question was in ADDITION to nobody addressing these stated problems. This has to be forum sliding and consent manufacturing of the highest degree.

[Anonymous No.8498163]

So this is the oft quoted chart of the US federal budget (from wikipedia, 2016)

There would obviously have to be a period where we pay off the people already in the SS system, but how would you divide the money going to it after that?
Would you have a truly Universal UBI, or would there actually be a cut off point?

>If you just take the 1.498 Trilly going to SS and Medicare right now, divided by some 325 million people, you get about $4,600 per person per year
This is why I would have a cut off somewhere around the 50th percentile earner mark ($~56,000 I think), which on a side note could become like a cool badge of status in society, like haha I'm officially better than half the people, I am the upper half, but I digress

[Anonymous No.8498175]

>If you don't work for your food, you don't deserve to have it
>mfw robots and AI are able to do every task better than humans nobody works but robots, everybody starves to death except robot owners.
>blessedcapitalism
ITT literal brainlets indoctrinated by the Rockefellerian labor based ethics of the (once) great petro economy (so Amerimutts). Have fun starving when the Bezos family owns the world and has a complete automated vertical monopoly from raw materials to final products.

Capitalism doesn't make you impervious to cuckdom, you cucks.

[Anonymous No.8498186]

>>8497962
Another problem with increasing UBI too much is that it reduces incentives. You will still need some people in the middle class to do the few jobs remaining. And you need some ambitious entrepreneurs who aspire to be capitalists. If UBI income is too good, it reduces incentive for anyone to try to get more income than what they do from UBI. This would also results in stagnation of growth, and is just as bad as not having any consumers to buy products.

[Anonymous No.8498207]

>>8498155
>believing in forum sliding and consent manufacturing on /biz/
to that, hwere the proofs?

>would drive away businesses and industry and driving prices up even higher.
and to this, you could at least do some math to show us this if it is so obvious

[Anonymous No.8498275]

a UBI replacing existing welfare schemes that are too expensive, don't work, and create social and economic distortions would save the USA about 1.5 trillion dollars a year which is almost what we spent to "liberate" Iraq which cost every single taxpayer about 24,000 USD.

every dollar off a UBI would follow directly back into local economies.

there would be instant relief in the wage market as companies would then have to pay the fair market price for free labor.

most importantly though, it would remove the coersive reality of being forced to work just to survive.

Read or listen to Charles Murrays arguments on the topic. Or other smart people.

Im hoping the millennial generation will be the first woke generation on this issue otherwise we are going to be a nation of illegal immigrants working shitty jobs for corporations at poverty wages and the streets filled with homeless Americans

[Anonymous No.8498286]

>>8496213
taxes are extortion

voluntary donations can support social safety nets

in the states the only organizations that provide food and shelter to homeless people are right wing christian churches

[Anonymous No.8498298]

>>8498286
offtopic tho

[Anonymous No.8498325]

>>8497770
>then you MUST believe the same will happen under the current system
Except we're not Le Guin reading manchildren who are incapable of seeing outside the "capitalist rich vs communist poor" dichotomy. Smart people every day are making the barrier for entry on self determination and self starting easier, and increases in communication technologies mean a new system is emerging from the noise that you're wholly incapable of seeing but will create new industries for the working people that have immense amounts of opportunity to let them grow.

>>8498207
>proofz pls
You're already proving to be entirely intellectually dishonest. I was in that thread OP image was taken from last night, there was no consensus.

>mafs
Look at what existing cuts to taxes are doing. A great relief to business owners if you actually knew what it was like to run a business.

http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/358786-trump-hands-american-small-businesses-and-workers-a-win

[Anonymous No.8498337]

>>8498298
How the fuck else are you paying for everyone's neet bux

[Anonymous No.8498462]

>>8496213
>I'd like to thanks biz for acknowledging the merits of a UBI
>acknowledging the merits of a UBI
In the last thread, you people got destroyed and had no arguments for funding said program, or dealing with the consequences, like raising taxes while companies moving out of the country.

[Anonymous No.8498498]

>>8498462
All countries will have high taxes dumbass.

[Anonymous No.8498511]

>>8498275
>there would be instant relief in the wage market as companies would then have to pay the fair market price for free labor.
Or they just relocate their whole operation to another country, while you have even more mouths to feed via UBI, and less means to pay for the bill.
Let alone all the people who are leaving said country too and taking their knowledge with them.

[Anonymous No.8498515]

>>8498325
>Le Linguine meme
must as in obligation not must as in necessity

>I was in that thread OP image was taken from last night, there was no consensus
well I was not, so I didn't know whether there was or wasn't consensus, but I'm certainly not sliding for an agenda or so, I'm just trying to have a debate (whether or not there was consensus doesn't really matter since this debate/thread will have no real continuation or real world consequences)

As you yourself pointed out, technological innovation are enabling things we would not have formerly imagined, thus what I'm saying is we can afford to throw a higher and higher quality bone to the bottom of society as tech gets better
100 years ago meat used to be expensive as fuck, nowadays even the poor can get a burger at mcdonald's once in a while

>>8498337
taxation is theft is what I agree with but it's offtopic for this thread

[Anonymous No.8498520]

Why don't we just use a portion of sales tax when we purchase everyday items for UBI?

[Anonymous No.8498532]

>>8498498
> All countries will have high taxes dumbass.
Because you said so?
Go ahead and lobby for implementing it, and watch your country go to shit because others are going to see the consequences and wont follow suit

[Anonymous No.8498540]

>>8498462
What about just a negative income tax?
It was Milton Friedman's idea back in the day
So like, those below the poverty line get money, until you make $11,500 where you then begin to pay taxes

[Anonymous No.8498546]

>>8498207

235,248,000 people over the age of 18 in the US x $200/month = 564, 595,200, 000 per year

Do you not understand how ridiculous this is just from a mathematical perspective?

[Anonymous No.8498576]

>>8498532
My bad, I thought this thread was talking about the inevitable UBI of the future and not the socialist pipe dream of today.

[Anonymous No.8498625]

>>8498540
Dont you already have something similar in place ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit

[Anonymous No.8498657]

>>8498576
If you cant even implement that failed idea, without having every nation on board, because otherwhise it is going to fail, then I would stop refering to it as "inevitable"

[Anonymous No.8498830]

There's a good argument against UBI, which is that it would be insufficient to have an UBI within such a corrupt and artififically arranged economic system as exists right now. It would turn into distraction crumbs for the plebs (bread and circus), while kikes and cronies go on fulfilling the commandments of talmud unabashed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAkGkFfhJRs

[Anonymous No.8498834]

UBI seems inevitable when technology has automated the majority of human labor, there are much fewer new jobs being created than jobs lost, and unemployment is permanently high. But right now a real UBI system doesn't make sense. You still want people to work, and any country that disincentivizes people from working because of UBI will have lower growth and stagnate relative to other countries.

[Anonymous No.8498951]

>>8498546
>564,595,200,000
aka ~565 Bill
aka about 100 billion less than the defense budget
aka one THIRD of the current welfare system for old people known as Social Security and Medicare

yeah so I'm not worried

[Anonymous No.8498981]

>>8496213
not gonna happen, and if it does.. I will already be financially independent... waiting to leave for the off-world colonies

[Anonymous No.8499074]

>>8496539
>Universal Basic Income
>Universal

Hurr lets sterilize everyone.

[Anonymous No.8499142]

>>8497610
Or teach them proper spending habits. Why isn't that shit a class in highschool? The stuff you're forces to learn there is trash anyway

[Anonymous No.8499238]

>>8496346
yes but you wouldnt get rid of them, think in representative democracy, not rational.
UBI is implemented? good, voters will most likely take it, if presented correctly by the right people. get rid of pensions, welfatre, money for mommies, etc to redistribute it tro everyone?
never going to happen, as society deems a single black mom more worthy of handouts than a basement dwelling neet
both living on the same ubi would, unironically, be considered unfair

[Anonymous No.8499239]

>>8499142
>the stuff you're forced to learn is trash

>history
>languages
>basic algebra and mathematics
>government

Your argument is the most retarded high-school-tier argument in the world

[Anonymous No.8499315]

>>8496964
thanks for this
its like UBI proponents never went abroad
human labor is waaaaaaay cheaper than a robot and will, most likely, be so for the next 25 years
thats one generation that will never see UBI implemented out of necessity
all this "automation leads to socialism" is so retarded, its insane wishful thinking. you know what automation leads to? cheaper exports to places where there is no automation. that creates opportunitty in those places (read africa, asia, south america) to develop native industries etcetc
we are still in the phase where the whole world is homogenized when it comes to roads, railroads, ports, industry standards, etc
UBI is already implemented in some developed nations - look up Hartz4 in Germany

[Anonymous No.8499364]

>>8497147
muh elites
in todays world, where knowledge and ability matter above everything else, you are your own capital
sentences like "automation will give us the ability to produce food and other products without needing a person working to produce it" show how little you thought this through.
someone needs to develop the automation, you fucking imbecile piece of shit communist that wants to redistribute OTHER PEOPLES abilities and fruits of labor AFTER they have been generated
>>8497240
its the old socialist call for violence and a clear indication that this person does not want to build something sustainable

[Anonymous No.8499395]

>>8497278
in a representative democracy, you are the technocrat

[Anonymous No.8499428]

>>8496213
He probably meant limit shitskin population growth, which seems obvious

[Anonymous No.8499434]

>>8497477
someone who is able to profit from war understands more about almost everything than someone who unloads trucks

[Anonymous No.8499442]

>>8496213
100% America is the only country that matters if you don’t think so you’re in denial. Whenever the new world order comes into play who do you think will run the entire world? America.

[Anonymous No.8499461]

>>8497610
now add that UBI will, most likely, be financed through deficit spending and you have the government literally printing money and handing it to the retards in society
thereby the government will fuck over EVERY productive member of society

[Anonymous No.8499512]

>>8497962
"only be enough to meet basic needs" until it was raised, again and again, to meet the "rising costs of basic needs"
mongoloid socialist mouthbreathers will print money and hand it to the poor, who will get used to it, and demand more, until the whole system collapses
by that time, everyone with a brain will have moved their wealth into assets that arent given out freely

[Anonymous No.8499552]

>>8499442
but the usa is on the slide. Your power is waning and your reserve currency is on the way out. further you are the most retarded people who genuinely believe you are the exceptionals. the rest of the world just sniggers

[Anonymous No.8499553]

>>8498175
get your robot to chop down a tree, right now, for less than it would cost to let a professional do it

yes, youre living in lala fantasy land, my friend

your arguments need like another 50 years to be valid, but its nice to have this discussion in advance

[Anonymous No.8499567]

>>8499315
>human labor is waaaaaaay cheaper than a robot and will, most likely, be so for the next 25 years
You can't be serious making such a dumb blanket statement.

A human driving a car or really doing any kind of labor where they are sitting in an automated machine using a control console will be more expensive than AI this decade.

[Anonymous No.8499575]

>>8496213
The world is not ready for UBI. People are still very much needed for work and I can't see a mass automation replacement occurring any time soon. US has record low unemployment. The best thing to do would be to remove income tax for anyone making under $250,000

[Anonymous No.8499581]

>>8498298
not at all, UBI is yet another power grab of the government

[Anonymous No.8499627]

>>8497824
>Defending boomers

[Anonymous No.8499670]

>>8499567
well good point
when does UBI become a necessity though? because, right now, there are people planting trees, extinguishing fires, and driving cars, arent there?
do we UBI once we have the star trek replicator and our economy is officially not driven by scarcity, or do you want to force UBI down peoples throats before that time comes?

[Anonymous No.8499692]

>>8499575
exactly
thats some sort of 'conditional basic income', like dont pay taxes for the first 50k you make that year

[Anonymous No.8499709]

>>8499552
>>8499442

It's obvious at this point that the new reserve currency will be Bitcoin or some other crypto.
Also once a civil war starts in America no more policing the world.
Europe&Asia will descend into a series of bloody wars to decide who will rule next.

[Anonymous No.8499734]

>>8498186
This is dumb not everyone is driven by money. Even with enough money to be taken care of or even well off entrepreneur types will still pursue their passions and create new businesses. Elon musk made a rocket company out of passion, he was already excessively rich from PayPal.

[Anonymous No.8499820]

>>8498275
other suggestions? i only posted this thread as a quip to be honest because the thread got archived when i got back home from work. wanted to reply to that anon who made that slightly communist remark. i don't really want to bother arguing in this thread because it's difficult for us anons to argue the actual implementation because i doubt we'd have the data. regarding people who are saying businesses would relocate to other countries, it's not like they can just uproot their likely entrenched businesses that easily. so we'd argue that it's still more expensive for them to do so rather than just staying if we tax them, etc etc. or that the countries they'd flee to will have taxes anyway so you'd have to find out if it's cheaper altogether than to just stay and deal with the UBI (if they'd have to be taxed higher, which they prolly won't be). Prolly won't be because contrary to higher prices that would make UBI irrelevant anyway (aka inflation), the largest beneficiaries of the UBI would be the poorest. they are also the ones who'd increase their spending the most, rather than hoarding it. aka they'd be increasing demand for products because they now have the "income" to purchase said products. again, kind of retarded to be arguing this because we don't have numbers to actually determine it. we can only go from experiments that have been conducted but the few (albeit positive) ones are in my opinion inconclusive, more experiments need to be done. it's hard to argue the implementations because of lack of data so at least the "principles" behind it. i don't get how people don't realize that there is a capitalistic angle to the idea, immediately branding it as socialist/communist/what have you when a slew of economists from different ideologies (hayek, friedman, modern contemporaries) argue for it. i dont even know why im typing all this shit, i'll check our charles murray but i'd rather see arguments against it because he seems to be pro UBI. thanks anyway

[Anonymous No.8499877]

>>8499442
just lol, you fool
every great nation has its time
1500-1600 portugal, spain
1600-1700 dutch, french, english
1700-1800 england (plus all those twats russia japan, etc)
1800-1900 england, france, germany
1900-2000 USA
2000-2100 choyna, asia in general - important mining areas will be africa, australia, etc

if you dont like it, go home

[Anonymous No.8499941]

>>8498186
menial tasks (manual labor) correlates positively with increased rewards. "mental" tasks, majority of the work right now, after a certain point, correlates negatively with increased rewards. https://www.bostonfed.org/-/media/Documents/Workingpapers/PDF/wp0511.pdf study by federal bank

[Anonymous No.8499955]

>>8499877
you see the pattern here, english power stretched across three centuries, in varying degrees, American power will do the same
I bet we have at least one good century left

[Anonymous No.8499973]

>>8496964
>will never happen within the next five generations
>five generations ago we had just invented electricity
It'll happen within two.

[Anonymous No.8499994]

>>8499973
a generation is usually considered about 25 years

[Anonymous No.8500007]

Hi guys I am totally a capitalist and as a capitalist I have to say universal basic income is very sound and we really haven’t given communism a chance yet.

t. Capitalist

[Anonymous No.8500013]

MODS do your jobs why is this shit allowed

[Anonymous No.8500017]

>>8499670
>when does UBI become a necessity
Never. It's a permutation of communism. Looks good on paper and in theory. But there are too many variables to account for such that, as history shows, in practice it's bound for failure.

[Anonymous No.8500101]

>>8499709
i agree with the first, it will most likely be bitcoin, because its the first, but im open for debate
dont believe in civil war in the us though, neither wars between superpowers like europe, russia and china
most likely low intensity warfare of allied states of said superpowers in africa and asia
also very interesting to see who south america aligns with. by what we see unfold in mercosur, its most likely going to be europe
the vacuum the us leaves behind is already being filled

[Anonymous No.8500130]

>>8499955
maybe, but this is clearly not the united states peak in power

[Anonymous No.8500157]

>>8499994
hey, its good to have debates early, right?

[Anonymous No.8500215]

>>8499877
By England you mean UK as most English achievementsbwerw actually achieved by Scotland directly or indirectly through their administrative skills. Don't believe me go read more fgts. England is a nation of dogshit and white van men

[Anonymous No.8500243]

>>8498951

Cutting military spending is a stupid idea as ww3 is inevitable in the nect 50 yeard

You will never eliminate ss, medicare, meficaid, etc, in this country. Those gibs are guaranteed votes for their respective parties. Creating permanent serfs cannot be undone. You may be able to do that in small Scandinavian countries with homogeneous people, but it simply can't be done in the US without rope.

[Anonymous No.8500262]

>>8500017
i share that opinion
its just too simplistic
>>the current welfare system could save money by just distributing UBI to everyone
sure, maybe for a while, but once the democratic masses start demanding 'more' UBI the whole house of cards will fall
UBI will be financed through deficit spending, the state will just print money and hand it out, thus devaluing the currency and fucking over the part of the population that didnt leave with all their wealth by then
>>youre forced to work to survive and thats bad so UBI is a necessity to create muh creativity
really? go fucking fuck yourself. life is struggle. i doubt anyone is as creative/hard working as a person whose life depends on it

this debate is boring me because there is one simple question proponents of UBI are not willing to answer: could UBI work in a society where money and state are separated? could the state build a sustainable, non deficit spending model, where UBI is linked to ACTUAL tax income? if so, why in the fucking fuck would those providing the money/gold for that UBI decide to spend it on handouts? now dont give me "well we will just force them to do it". thats fucking communism and taking shit by force is last century shit

[Anonymous No.8500298]

>>8500215
what have you jocks produced? deep fried mars bar and haggis thats what

[Anonymous No.8500309]

>>8500215
whatever. im guessing anglo-saxon aggression played a vital role in building their empire

[Anonymous No.8500320]

>>8500298
let him be proud of his backwards sheepnation
the only thing the scots did was not get conquered immediately

[Anonymous No.8500345]

>>8496213
Universal basic income does not work cause it goes directly against human nature. We will have advance tehcnologially another 100 years to make it work when planet, feeding and shelter is run by robots

[Anonymous No.8500350]

>>8499552
That’s funny you forgot the part where we would absolutely shit on any country we went to war with

[Anonymous No.8500362]

>>8500320
Fucking kek lad, nice education really

[Anonymous No.8500383]

>>8500350
would being the operative word. All nations eventually slide and its just your turn

[Anonymous No.8500408]

>>8500320
no you just surrendered instead

[Anonymous No.8500443]

>>8500362
let me guess
youre scottish and you heard how great your nations skills were in your history classes?
im german btw and i heard out engineering is the absolute shit

[Anonymous No.8500445]

>>8496213

Yes please implement UBI soon, can't wait for fiat to crash and burn. I'll be wiping my ass with all those UBI dollars 6 months later.

[Anonymous No.8500634]

>>8499820
What stimulant/s are you on?
Please use paragraphs.

[Anonymous No.8500992]

>>8496213
>population growth meme
This only becomes a problem if your carrying capacity becomes limited by your own society's inefficient use of available resources. I for one, welcome the day people incorporate widespread vertical farms, green energy farms(solar, hydro,etc), and other forms of production more efficient than whatever we're using.

The only reason our Western society isn't advancing is because there are people who want to keep it as it is now. When these dinosaurs die off, we'll be seeing massive changes to infrastructure, for better or for worse.

[Anonymous No.8501245]

>>8496346
No because you aren't thinking of the substitution effect.

[Anonymous No.8501824]

>>8500262
But you have to acknowledge the flaw in your argument here which is that all the things you've described could be achieved under the current system as well and indeed are happening
Our democracy causes more and more handouts to be given out over the years like Social Security itself and our various welfare programs
So clearly this issue of democracy leading to greater entitlement is a separate issue in and of itself

[Anonymous No.8501903]

>>8498576
>inevitable UBI of the future
What debate is there to be had if you've already decided for yourself UBI's inevitability? Why do you need people to affirm your conclusion if you already believe in it so strongly?

There's no point to this, we've sat here arguing with a brick wall while you've already seem to have spoken for the people and the debate. This is entirely a sham.

[Anonymous No.8501929]

>>8501903
>it took him 4 posts to realize this is a leftypol thread

[Anonymous No.8501977]

Damn commies. Learn basic economics.

[Anonymous No.8501988]

I'm okay with UBI but what I hate is the billionaires who say it will make everyone an entrepreneur and innovator.

[Anonymous No.8502000]

>>8498951
Social security maybe, you're not getting rid of medicare though.

And $200/month is barely enough to live in most places you're literally throwing out money for no good use.

Only candidate right now that's advocating for a UBI is also advocating for a VAT along with it, which will radically increase prices behind what producers would already increase them by with increased economic flow, therefore effectively nullifying the actual benefits your UBI would supposedly create.

>>8501929
You're right, I'm just gonna close the thread now, we should be universally distributing helicopter rides for these fuckers

[Anonymous No.8502156]

>>8500243
This is a legitimate downside of UBI I think, but it might be possible with a replacement of such programs
However it would be tough

>>8502000
Checked
It doesn't really have to be enough to live on, but also it can be more like $400 if we replaced SS or even $600 with M+M too