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/biz/ - Business & Finance

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6390280 No.6390280 [Reply] [Original]

Already sitting 4 FUCKING HOURS here trying to calculate the taxes I owe because I traded like a fucking retard 50 times in 2016 december alone...

hope you just hold
i will never sell any coin until 1 year minimum hold'd

>> No.6390434

>>6390280

Just transfer everything to a hardware wallet that only you know about and "accidentally lose" it. Later just say that you received some crypto as a gift if anyone asks

>> No.6390542

>>6390434
nah man, it doesnt work like that in germany... especially not when i have a 100k+ portfolio and am actually a student

>> No.6390621

Imagine having bots auto-trading 24/7.
Do your taxes next year son.

>> No.6390677

my dude there are tools online already that automate this for you. it's as simple as uploading the trading history the exchange generates for you and pressing a button

you are wasting your god damn time doing it by hand

>> No.6390708

Seriously, I have a 300k portfolio. I've made literally over 500 trades this year. This is going to be impossible. I'm just avoiding it like someone trying to avoid doing homework. No idea what I'm going to do.

>> No.6390720
File: 55 KB, 285x368, 1515865881705.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6390720

>paying taxes for crypto
>living in a country with any taxes at all

>> No.6390758

>>6390677
Can you give a link to a service like this?

>> No.6390765

Use cointracking.info man
German made uber tax machine for tracking trades through api or csv upload

Use my ref if u likey - C456935

>> No.6390767

>>6390708
see >>6390677

>> No.6390770

>paying taxes
>not just using cointracking.info to track your trades
>cucking yourself twice in a row

>> No.6390807

US people, if I dont cash out I dont need to do taxes do I?

>> No.6390809

>>6390708
Give some to me and I'll do your taxes for you

>> No.6390819

>>6390758
cointracking.info

bitcoin.tax

you're welcome

>> No.6390856

>>6390807
crypto to crypto trades are absolutely taxable events in US, DO NOT listen to shills telling you otherwise. This is the case now, will be the case in the future, and always has been the case

>> No.6390870

>>6390819
bitcoin.tax

I was done in 30 minutes, Coinbase uploaded funky and I had to fix that. Everything else was seamless, and then I had some manual uploads from some shit exchange.

Over 300 trades a month on average, btw.

>> No.6390875

>>6390280
Yeah I'm not claiming shit. I'll wait until they come to me. Maybe teach me how to do taxes in school instead of white guilt next time, faggots.

>> No.6390886

>>6390280
>sitting 4 FUCKING HOURS here trying to calculate the taxes I owe

>4 fucking hours
Spreadsheet much?
One row of formula.
Copy and paste trades.
>30 mins

>> No.6390910
File: 96 KB, 640x799, 1499706197724.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6390910

>>6390280
>buy bitcoin and eth etfs
>broker handles automatically tax calculations end of each year to tax bear
>calculated by end year result, if no profit after trades no taxes ofc

whats so difficult?

>> No.6390927

>>6390886
anon be thankful that there are people out there like this who buy our bags. if spreadsheet is too hard for pajeet, imagine pajeet's portfolio

>> No.6390959

>>6390856
You can do deferred capital gains tax (pay when you actually cash out capital). The new bill doesn't clarify this because they know most crypto traders are retards. Its the same as anything else, otherwise markets would literally never move.

>> No.6390967

>>6390870
Uh oh you actually used that? Rip your coins

>> No.6390969

>>6390870
What was the issue with Coinbase's upload on your end. When I used bitcoin.tax I was left with a BTC balance that I don't actually have.

>> No.6391046

>buy computer hardware to mine coins
>set up all accounts under aliases and throwaway
>trade like a motherfucker

Whenever I cash out I'm consolidating it all under my name and only filing one trade

>> No.6391077

>>6390856
So I'm a grad student, no income, do i even need to file taxes? I dont understand any of this tax shit

>> No.6391096

>>6390677
>>6390819
Do we have to put it in our taxes if we haven't cashed out?

>> No.6391170

Q: How can IRS find out whether or not I traded crypto - crypto?


Q: Can I just pay my capital gains tax and they will just leave me alone? Based on the fact I paid my taxes. Or will they still investigate?

>> No.6391276

And you can't tax it all as a whole entity? I think this is possible in Finland

>> No.6391335

>>6391170
Your bank when you cash out will know you traded crypto. You omitted more than 25% of your taxes. May get audited back for up to 6 yrs if did unknowingly. May get audited for fraud, no time limitation.

>> No.6391348
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6391348

>>6391170
each country has different tax system. first you have to find out are the losses tax deductable, if they are then no problem, you simply sum end of year profits and losses and if green pay taxes on that.

if not then dont trade under your id cause it would be impossible to make profit

>> No.6391381

>>6390959
I am doing research on this now and everything I'm pulling up is pointing me in the direction that tax deferral is only done through Like-Kind Exchanges (clearly not allowed in crypto according to IRS memos) and tax-advantaged retirement accounts

What am I missing? Guess I should talk to a CPA after all

>> No.6391410

For 2017 you only pay capital gains taxes if you cash out to fiat. They didn't clarify the ruling until December that only real estate can do in-kind transfers, not crypto. Next year we will have to document each trade, profit or loss.

Some anon claimed to have an arbitrage bot that did thousands of trades, he made a script that generated the tax reporting and it came out to 73,000+ pages.

>> No.6391432

>>6390708
Just hire an accountant retard

>> No.6391448

Hello fellow Anons, I used bitcoin . tax and could use the free version because less than 100 trades. Was super fucking easy. Have not used cointracking yet, but read good things about it so far.

>> No.6391500

>>6390280
The solution is actually very simple. Don't cashout.

>> No.6391506

>>6391335
Holy fuck your stupid and your a massive faggot for overexagerating how much the IRS cares about nobodies

>> No.6391507

>>6391348
how can you even make losses in this crazy market?

>> No.6391517

>tfw you traded at a loss because litecoin was a shitty coin
>tfw you already recouped the losses from litecoin by trading for a different coin

feels good man

fuck you litecoin, you're shit

>> No.6391530

>>6390856
I would say this is true beginning January 1 of this year going forward under the new tax bill, but would argue for any crypto to crypto trades prior to that it was ambiguous and the IRS provided no guidance to the contrary.

For 2017 taxes I will not be counting crypto to crypto sales as taxable. I imagine many thousands of other will not as well.

But 2018 taxes and all going forward, all sales are taxable.

>> No.6391552

>>6390434
Some euro countries actually have a gift tax.
Depending on who I get shit from, in Netherlandistan the first 25k is free, everything else is taxed 0% (parents once in your life up to 100k for a house), 10% from parents or siblings, up to 50% in the case it's just someone you know I believe

>> No.6391556

Taxation is theft. Convert to Monero to keep statist banding from stealing your wealth. Move to the Bahamas, Bermuda, or United Arab Emirates

>> No.6391568

>export trades to pdf
>email to accountant
Nigga what the fuck is hard about that?

>> No.6391574

>>6390280
fucking idiot trying to pay taxes when you dont have to

>> No.6391583

>>6391381
which IRS memo?

>> No.6391591
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6391591

>>6391410

>the poor IRS fuck that has to read through that

>> No.6391617

>>6390280
You only pay the taxes on the final withdrawal amount you shitlord, IRS doesnt recognize digital shitcoins as stocks and whatnot

>> No.6391634

>>6391170
Say you made profits from exchanges that do not have ID verification. You transfer bitcoin from crypto-crypto exchange to fiat-crypto exchange (gemini, gdax). When I cash out, can I just report the capital gains tax and be done with it?

>> No.6391655

What about if you sell used hard wallets with free crypto on for cash?

>> No.6391669

>>6391617
i'm in germany and yes they tax you on crypto-crypto trades... this is how you pay more taxes than your portfolio consists of in the end

>> No.6391675

>>6391506
Good luck to paying the omission fees and penalties anon.

>> No.6391678

>>6390280
Hopefully you are using 1031 exchanges. Those are legal for all exchanges up until 2018. You will still pay taxes later, but just not yet. So anyone out there paying taxes now, and not deferring their taxes through 1031 like-kind exchanges, is an idiot. Please don't give the IRS a free donation. Use 1031 exchanges.

>> No.6391686

>>6391655
What could possibly go wrong.

>> No.6391709

>>6390708
I have a much smaller portfolio and several thousand transactions this year...

>> No.6391728

>>6390765
THEY CANT IMPORT FUCKING BINANCE??? AAAHAHAAHA THANKS FOR NOTHING

>> No.6391742

>>6391530
Are you reporting all your 2017 trades under the Like-Kind forms?

I agree they were ambiguous - but what is NOT ambiguous is that the only way to take advantage of their ambiguity LEGALLY is to report the trades as like kind exchanges. Which will probably get you audited but good luck.

You don't just get to exchange property and make gains without reporting it to the IRS. When you eventually cash out or pay your 2018, 2019 and on taxes they will start asking questions unless you are poor

>> No.6391746
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6391746

>>6391669
>this is how you pay more taxes than your portfolio consists of in the end

>> No.6391753

>>6391410
>73k pages
YOU FUCKING WOT M8
Can we try to get tax institution employees to quit their jobs from having to deal with crypto trade horseshit?

>> No.6391769

>>6390807
yes, you need to pay taxes on any gains USD to Crypo, Crypto to Crypto, or Crypto to USD xfers

>> No.6391782

>>6391669
>this is how you pay more taxes than your portfolio consists of in the end
do you really believe this? you obviously can deduct your losses

>> No.6391785

>>6391728
they can

>> No.6391797

>>6391669
you can substract loses...

>> No.6391826

>>6391782
not if you lose the money one year later and haven't paid taxes...

>> No.6391828

>>6391669
dumbass you're doing it wrong get a fucking accountant

>> No.6391845

>>6390875

maybe teach you how to do taxes in jail. good luck. The IRS doesn't play around man.. listen to anyone that has been audited in this forum

>> No.6391857

>>6391769
What happens if you buy a boat load of btc and then only buy into ICO's? How do you determine the value of said ICO purchase? Genuine question famalam, is this why so many ICO's refuse burgerbros?

>> No.6391869
File: 24 KB, 393x435, cointrackinginfo.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6391869

>>6391785
how? it says i dont have a time stamp

>> No.6391880

I use cointracking.info as well. I paid for a year of it. They have an Android app for anyone that doesn't know it's actually really nice I use it in conjunction with blockfolio

>> No.6391900

>>6391845
they don't send you to jail for not reporting. play stupid and you're fine

>> No.6391917

>>6391669
>they tax you for gains between each trade, thats how you end up owing more
>being this retarded

>> No.6391918

>>6391096
yes

>> No.6391926

>>6391880
can it track trades already done?

>> No.6391952

Put it on a all on a hard wallet go outside and punch yourself in the face 5x and go to the police and say you've been mugged. Would that work?

>> No.6391957

>>6391170
exchanges that are US friendly (which is why bitfinex discontinued US relations) are already talking to the IRS

>> No.6391994

>>6390875

Oh man. You're in for a surprise. Being an idiot isn't an excuse and they will fuck you over if they can.

>> No.6392004
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6392004

>>6391507
what are you saying? if you have 1000 trades you gonna have losses and if you are trading a class that is not tax deductable you're in trouble

>> No.6392033

I used bitcoin.tax and it tells me that I have more ether than I acutally do.
What do? I already checked all my withdrawals/deposits from all my exchanges/addresses. What the fuck?

>> No.6392048

>>6391507
DGB

>> No.6392056

>>6391845
>>6391994
I'm not moving to fiat.

>> No.6392072

>>6390280
Invest in TurboCoin which will calculate your taxes automatically through the power of BLOCKCHAIN using synergistic disruptive technologies.

>> No.6392086

I have the option to move to Spain, how would that be on the taxes side?
Just throwing that out there, maybe some anon knows his shit.

>> No.6392109

>>6391617
you're going to jail bro

>> No.6392127

>>6390280
Ill never understand the constant FUD surrounding taxes here. Virtually every exchange provides you with a .csv tracking your trades. Even decentralized exchanges like ED have resources for this.

Bitcoin.tax aggregates all this data and provides the USD conversion automatically. You literally do nothing except upload these files

Track your ICO contributions manually, and you're fucking finished

If people didn't wait till the last minute to calculate their exposure, you'd recognize you don't owe nearly as much as you think, and you need to do far less work than you realize to report it

>> No.6392131

>>6391381
Wrong. Like kind-exchanges apply to all types of property pre-2018. Crypto most closely relates to gold and silver so it will follow the rules related to precious metals like-kind exchanges. There are four basic rules for like-kind exchanges with precious metals. Firstly the metals must have similar use-cases, for example an industrial metal is not like-kind with an investment metal. This first rule does not apply to crypto because all of cypto is investment property other than a few edge cases no one really owns. The next rule is that you cannot define a property as legal tender and then get like-kind transfers with other legal tender, so this only applies to things like Tether and GoldMoney which are pegged to the value of the dollar and precious metals respectively, but they are used as cryptos. This means even trades to Tether and GoldMoney are like kind exchanges. The third rule is that specific gold content of coins used in like-kind exchanges don't matter so long as the coins are valued for their gold. This means that specific algorithms used for blockchain based crypto-currencies don't matter so long as they are valued for their blockchain. The fourth and final rule is that selling for numismatics (rare collectibles) is not like-kind. This means if you ever bought a physical Bitcoin at a jacked up price this is not a like-kind transfer.

There are more indicators like the way they changed the definition in2018 of crypto from "property" to "intangible property" and then required all 1031 exchanges to be done with "real property" which now disqualifies crypto from like-kind exchanges, but they wouldn't have changed this if like-kind exchanges were already illegal. Also some of the lawyers working on the tax bill specifically said it closes a crypto loophole for like-kind exchanges, so if they are closing a loophole that means the loophole exists. If you want to give the IRS a free donation go ahead. I'm going to legally keep my money.

>> No.6392147

>>6391634
good luck moving your crypto with that low limit because of lack of validation.. some exchanges won't let you make any withdraw without a verification or will be moving to this soon

>> No.6392173

>>6392109
You don't go to jail for legally deferring your taxes you bootlicking retard.

>> No.6392210

>>6392147
>what are decentralized exchanges

>> No.6392214

Or you could just put it all on a hard wallet and hand it over to Mohammed and his 12 kids down the road, because that's where it's all gonna go anyway.

>> No.6392224

>>6390856
This is retarded, you don't pay tax on the runescape gold you've made picking fucking flax, and that shits was easier to actually transfer into real money

>> No.6392238

>>6392173
you don't go to jail because they simply confiscate the taxes themselves if you don't pay

>> No.6392251

>>6390434

Does this bullshit actually work in america

>> No.6392274

>>6391769
they don't care about hypotheticals you cuck, they will see that boatload of btc and when you bought it (that price at that time) and wonder where all that money went.. good luck proving it as losses.. they aren't friendly and going to show you what you did wrong or prove you wrong.. they are going to send you a bill tacked on with fees and an IRS court date

>> No.6392317

>>6390856
Then why does this article say the 2018 law closed a loophole. Why would they change the tax code to close a loophole if that loophole doesn't exist? Are you retarded? Have fun paying extra taxes this year so you can pay the welfare for Daquans fifteen children to different mothers.

>> No.6392319

Being culturally enriched doesn't come cheap, pay your fucking taxes!

>> No.6392322

>>6392131
Thank you anon. I'm not going to blindly trust you but I'll run this through a CPA.

>> No.6392374

>>6391900
you must be some young entitled cuck that thinks you can play "stupid" becuase you have shitty parents that let you get away with shit because you played "stupid".. IRS DOESNT CARE HOW RETARDED OR STUPID OR CLUELESS YOU ARE. THEY CARE ABOUT GETTING PAID. THEY PAY MORE MONEY IN PRIVATE COLLECTORS THAN WHAT THEY GET IN RETURN FROM THOSE SAID COLLECTORS.. thats how little they care about you, and if you think you will just get a "warning" and then just pay what you owe then.. you are dead fucking wrong. I'm just trying to help you

>> No.6392384

>>6391530
Bro, good luck with that. unless it's under 5k worth of trades IRS is gonna audit and add blast you...

>> No.6392430

I love how the IRS is above constitutional law. Americans use to literally murder people and start revolutions over less.

>> No.6392442
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6392442

Because of the tax mess i would avoid any broker that requires your real id currently. Secondly, if you want make things even more clear trade crypto etfs/eth that are listed and taxed completely similarly as traditional stocks or etfs in every country

>> No.6392444

>>6390280
Can any one of you faggots explain to me why you want to willingly pay taxes on anonymous currency? You realize that taxation is theft, that you can safely hide your cryptocurrency from the thieves, and that it was in fact designed to do so?

>> No.6392468

>>6390280
Pay30 buck for the crypto accountant program.

>> No.6392481
File: 311 KB, 500x497, 1515625157979.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6392481

If I just cashed out $400 once as an emergency to pay rent should I worry? Thats all that I've cashed out

>> No.6392484

>>6392251

Yes, but you can only get about $15,000 in tax-free gifts per year

>> No.6392501

>>6391900
Ignorance is no excuse when it comes to laws. I didn't know I couldn't rob that bank huurrr duurrr

>> No.6392502

>>6392238
If you legally defer your crypto taxes through 1031 exchanges they cannot confiscate your money. This was literally addressed in the 2018 tax bill meaning that there were like-kind exchanges on all crypto to crypto changes pre-2018. It is the IRS's fault because they released only one document on the subject and never directly addressed whether like-kind exchanges were permissible. By not addressing the issue, they also never defined like-kind exchanges to crypto as impermissible. That means they cannot legally punish you as there is no statute for them to do so. After 2018 you better pay up, but before that there is literally no article within the IRS code that bans crypto from using like-kind exchanges. If you want to be a beta who says that because they didn't define it you want to pay the taxes just in case, go for it. But there is no legal standing for the IRS to make a case against you so long as you fill out the proper forms for a 1031 exchange.

>> No.6392519

>>6392251
no

>> No.6392533

>>6392444
They ain't anonymous only a hand full are and they are not the ones you use to enter fuck face.

>> No.6392546

>>6392317
http://fortune.com/2017/12/21/bitcoin-tax/
I never posted the article, sorry.

>> No.6392611
File: 1.49 MB, 2000x2000, 1472934938385.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6392611

>>6392481
If you cashed to fiat and to your regular bank account you should report those capital gains tax definitely. Crypto to crypto trades depends on each country, most countries tax when you switch to fiat or use cryptos to buy fiat things

>> No.6392616

>>6392502
I meant after you cash out to fiat in your bank not in crypto

>> No.6392681

>>6392384
They cannot penalize you unless there is some part of the IRS code that allows them to. They literally never addressed like-kind transfers between crypto so they cannot penalize you as no such penalization exists in the IRS code.

>> No.6392683

>>6392131
WRONG
Crypto is not and never was like kind acceptable

>> No.6392685

>>6392533
Bitcoin is anonymous if you use it right. It doesn’t require KYC/AML to get a bitcoin wallet. I know in your shitty ‘civilized’ countries moat people buy on Coinbase, but you don’t have to, you can buy on Localbitcoins P2P for cash or an online wallet. Don’t be a slave.

E

>> No.6392740

>>6392502
WRONG. The only thing addressed was that ALL trades after 2017 ARE taxable events BY LAW. You have no fucking idea how the IRS will interpret every single trade you made. Are all crypto s link kind or just the ones that act like a currency? These are the questions the IT'S is going to sort through and if you don't have enough liquid assets to cover it you could get JUSTED.

>> No.6392743

>>6392683
http://fortune.com/2017/12/21/bitcoin-tax/

>> No.6392809

Get some dogs, any dogs will do just go grab some off the street. Then start a stray dog charity, pay yourself to look after the dogs your own money but say it is money donated by people to your charity.

>> No.6392817

>>6391096
Yes it is the epitome of stupidity but you have to do it..

>> No.6392831

>>6392681
You are simply wrong. We have no idea what the IRS will do with 2017. You can make a good faith effort and report all trades as like kind. Just be ready to get audited and have liquid assets to pay any fines.

>> No.6392925

>>6392740
Two things here. If you look at how they treat like-kind exchanges with crypto then all crypto to crypto is like kind. Secondly ex post facto laws are illegal by the United States Constitution in two separate articles. So you cannot be punished for the new crypto definition the IRS has in 2018 for trades you did pre-2018. That's illegal according to the U.S Constitution. You have to read the law according to the time the trade was made, and according to the law hat existed at the time of the trade there was no definition or clause in the code that banned using 1031 exchanges on crypto to crypto transfers. 1031 exchanges can be used for all types of property.

>> No.6392927

>>6390280

Just don't report it bro.

Fuck the IRS, they don't know how to handle this shit yet anyway.

If we all hold out on paying crypto tax they won't be able to handle it.

Wait till 2019 or 2020 when they have legit rules, we'll pay tax then.

>> No.6392978

>>6390542
>>6390708
>They think they can cash out 50k+ portfolios

Ha. Good luck trying. There's a reason so many people cashed out during the normie rush that it caused a bear market last week. You cashing out depends on others buying, that money isn't just sitting around in a digital safe somewhere.

>> No.6392995

>>6392831
I will have liquid assets, but I cannot be fined for the IRS for something they have never addressed. That's the point. They never addressed this, so it is like-kind until they addressed it in 2018. I almost expect to be audited but so long as I file the 1031 correctly there will be no penalties.

>> No.6393007

>>6392033
Im in the same boat, but with BTC. How is this possible and how do we fix it? I suppose its due to transaction fees. Question is, how do we balance it out?

>> No.6393041
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6393041

>>6392831
>>6392740
>>6392681
>>6392683
>>6392502

Clearly there are reasonable arguments ON BOTH SIDES. The takeaway from this is - if you have ANY reasonable amount of money in Crypto and you have done anything other than HODL xD!1! you should be speaking with a CPA before filing taxes this year

otherwise enjoy getting assraped. This will be the year the IRS starts auditing and fining people... the amount of wealth gained this past year compared to years past in the crypto space make it inevitable

/thread

>> No.6393131

>>6391335
>Your bank will know

Lol. Trade it to a service like MoneyGram and cash out like drug dealers and spics sending our money overseas do. I think ripple or monero are already looking into a trade service with MoneyGram.

>> No.6393169

>>6392925
Did I say they will use the new law for 2017? Look. I believe certain cryptos should be like kind assets. However some if not most should not. If the IRS sees it this way for 2017 you could end up oweing lot more.

>> No.6393181

Invest it all on Litecoin then in 6 months you can just claim bankruptcy.

>> No.6393246

>>6392995
Fined was the wrong word. Get ready to pay the IRS what they believe you owe them.

>> No.6393469

I've invested only like $500 buck this month, and I haven't made and any gains yet. Do I have to worry about any of this?

>> No.6393475

So if you get taxed on every trade, does that mean you lose 25% every time you trade?

>> No.6393571
File: 547 KB, 465x490, protect_ya_neck.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6393571

just pay taxes on what you cash in and cash out,at the moment the govt has literally no way of tracking trades.

its all the honor system at the moment. dont give the govt extra money for no reason

>> No.6393690

>>6393246
This is correct. Or be ready to take them to court.

>> No.6393719

also conbase literally stated in their tax info disclaimer that the irs only had records of people who hold 20k+

>> No.6393818

>>6392251
could you not do this with monero? if so they would change the law or just put in jail. they literally do not care. if you get 15k a year in monero as gift i wonder how that would go down.

>> No.6393826

>>6393719
Yeah and even that is only records of 20k buys or higher from before 2015 I think.

>> No.6393996

>>6393181
kek

>> No.6394058

Fucking burgers make me laugh, they pay all this taxes and shit, but they don't see it reflected on any social services, like free health, education, etc.

>> No.6394095

File under Mark a market status.
Its what the hodlers don't qualify for, but the day traders do. There is a middle ground you can fall into that is really gonna wreck yo shit.

>> No.6394100

>>6394058
No we give it all to niggers, think of the niggers. Okay?

>> No.6394106

>>6393818
You "could" but if they investigate and find out, you could be pretty fucked. You'd probably want a really good cover, anyways.

>> No.6394131

>tfw live a 2nd world shithole that doesn't know how to collect taxes

>> No.6394539

>>6390280
crypto taxes are based on archaic rules

you got crypto to crypto trading,dividends and forks.

What the fuck do you do with all the forks?

>> No.6394856

>>6390542
> it doesnt work like that in germany
Retard, move to Paraguay for 3 months, report it as your place of residence in the embassy, cash in and come back with 0% taxes.