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/biz/ - Business & Finance

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4614113 No.4614113 [Reply] [Original]

Is crypto a capital asset?

If yes, then it's incredibly, unbelievably easy to fake capital losses in ways that literally nobody could ever trace. I'm not going to explain how, but anyone with a little creativity or programming skills knows how to do this.

If it's not, then it's property and it's also incredibly easy to send it to a "friend" without every leaving any trace and then have that friend gives your money back to you, with plenty of interest and gains of course, as a gift.

Why the fuck would anybody pay taxes on this when it's that easy?

>I spent $100 on crypto and the next day I decided to buy some Monero, looked promising
>Prove it
>That's simply impossible, sir.
>Then a year later my friend from China sent me $100,000 in crypto as a gift from this address that is not mine and I have never seen before.
Or
>My friend cashed out in China and sent me the money through a Citibank global transfer. It's clearly a gift.

How do you fuck this up?

>> No.4614174

Best way to find out is research.

>> No.4614175 [DELETED] 

Bump.

This is the pajeet and europoor hours so I realize most of you can't understand English but I tried to use small words.

>> No.4614200
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4614200

>>4614113

>> No.4614209

>>4614174
I tried research. Nobody has any clue. Every "financial expert" has only heard of Bitcoin and doesn't really understand it so he thinks it's clearly a capital asset.

None of them have any fucking clue how blockchains work. The other half looked at the old laws and said it's clearly property, but never knows anything about taxes or how gift taxes work, so they don't really know the rules for that either. It's legally kind of a gray area.

>> No.4614225

>>4614200
What's so funny?

Nobody fucking pays taxes on crypto but if it's a capital asset then I, along with everybody else, can use it as a way to offset any other capital gains and get money from the IRS. No matter how much you fucking made, it's unbelievably easy to generate enough evidence to say that it was all lost in a day and remove all evidence suggesting otherwise, even if it's completely untrue. It's incredibly fucking easy to do that.

>> No.4614262

>>4614209
I see it as they never thought this would happen. If they consider it property isn't there a way to make it unclaimable?

I read a post earlier today something about 1034?

>> No.4614275

>>4614225
what if you just purchased items with crypto? that's not a taxable event, if i understand it correctly, since the crypto isn't being converted to USD, right?

>> No.4614287

>>4614113
>my friend cashed out
Hehe
By the way "that's impossible sir" is not a satisfying answer

>> No.4614295

>>4614262
Yeah but it's easier just to disguise it as a gift because there are infinite ways to remove all traces of transactions in crypto and it isn't even hard.

>>4614275
That is taxable. Property to property trades are taxed at fair market value, regardless of whether USD is involved. It's like bartering.

>> No.4614312

>>4614295
good to know.

>> No.4614320

>>4614287
What the fuck do they want me to do? I used private blockchains which have no public ledger.

The money's literally "gone."

Also, if I "lose" my private key just as my coin mooned, is that a capital loss? (assuming it's a capital asset)

>> No.4614326

>>4614320
They'll just tell you to get fucked mate

>> No.4614334

If crypto is a capital asset, is "losing" my private key to Monero (non-public ledger) a capital loss?

>> No.4614373

>>4614326
I get that the burden of proof falls on me, but to say that my $100 Monero purchase is somehow tied to the $100,000 my friend sent me just a year later from some Bitcoin addresses "I've never even heard of" is far-fetched. Let's just assume I used Shapeshift too.

That's too huge of a leap for any IRS agent to reasonably make. I don't have to prove something THAT absurd isn't true because his claim is completely irrational.

And again if it's a capital asset then this is all pointless because it's so easy to artificially create a capital loss with "proof".

>> No.4614407

>>4614373
They will tell you the 100k is clearly a tax scheme and to get fucked, you won't have any evidence to unfuck yourself

>> No.4614440

>>4614407
But that's wrong. 100k as a gift is not "clearly a tax scheme," it's a reasonable gift from a good friend. There's literally nothing wrong with that.

Even better is when the friend cashes out to his bank in the foreign country and just sends you the money via bank transfer (Citi Global).

I have actually done this. He's my "rich friend" sending me money and there are no consequences.

>> No.4614458

Also, chinks have a US50k cap sending money out of the country, so if you actually had a friend to play alibi you can enjoy his execution

>> No.4614474

>>4614458
Correct and I knew this. We have, however, found another way around this but that's on his hands. For the sake of my question, change it to 50k per year.

>> No.4614531

>>4614474
Basically I don't think they're going to buy it, you can try, but the "gift" thing is retarded

>> No.4614583

>>4614531
But in addition, I have also unironically gotten gifts of $10,000 and $20,000 this year from my family through the same method, and my "friend" above is actually a relative on my wife's side too so it all makes sense...

How would they tell my real gifts from the fake ones? Just because it's kind of bigger?

>> No.4614818

>your scheme only works because youre using x amount of money if it was y amount it would raise flags
just keep this in mind anon also too many gifts raises red flags

>> No.4614842

>>4614818
Noted.
I have a habit of keeping every single receipt for every single thing I buy, even if it's under a dollar, in big folders in a room, and every paycheck and statement as proof, so I'm very careful about this stuff.

>> No.4614887

What if I actually send it as a gift, then ask the guy to just get it out via ATM and give it to me?

I send 5k to 4 people as a gift, 20k ready.

>> No.4614889

>>4614275
It is taxable. Otherwise businesses could just make deals in monopoly money and never pay taxes.

>> No.4614905

>>4614887
I've done this too, many times. There's always fees involved with the ATM one way or another so something like Citi Global is simply easier for what I figured is the same thing.

>> No.4614918

>>4614887
>>4614905
>>4614905
But if you're worried enough that you need the money to be untraceable, that could work.

The problem with that is that when I tired to put in large amounts given to me that way, I came close to getting hit with structuring charges, which is a whole different problem.

>> No.4615106

If all the vendors in the US decided to start accepting Monero, is the IRS fucked?

>> No.4615145

>>4614113
It only counts as capital gains or loss when you trade USD for it, same as the stock market.

>> No.4615227

>>4615145
You're assuming it's a capital asset. That's the whole point of this thread.

Half the people think it's property, like a car, in which case you pay for gains but not losses. The other half thinks its a capital asset, like a stock, in which you can count losses.

Both ways are so incredibly easy to manipulate with foreign exchanges, non-public ledgers, shapeshift, making your own anonymous coins, etc., that it's completely unenforceable.

But nowhere in this thread has anyone said anything that remotely implied that capital gains or losses were counted for any time except when trading for USD. That was understood.

>> No.4615252

>>4615227
Holy fuck reddit spacing. I don't even go to reddit it's just a habit and I'm sorry.

>> No.4615361

>>4614440
There are consequences to large gifts you fool. On the gifters tax return they have to specify who they gave it to and pay any tax over the annual gift limits. If the IRS can't find record of you getting this gift then you will get fucked.

>> No.4615381

>>4615361
That's true IF the gift giver is a US citizen or in the US. These people are outside the US and have completely different tax laws.

>> No.4615399

>>4615361
Because these gifts were given to me through Citi and sometimes through cash and checks, there are records.

>> No.4615405

>>4614113
Are we just gonna ignore how freaky this is? Are dark eyelashes, brows, and lipstick all a girl needs to climb like 3 or 4 points?

>> No.4615416

>>4615381
Did you pay the transfer tax and or file the forms for this?

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/gifts-from-foreign-person

>> No.4615455

>>4615416
>Gifts or bequests valued at more than $100,000 from a nonresident alien individual
>more than $100,000
Did you even bother to read it?

>> No.4615508

>>4615455
Did you? The rules are for businesses, not individuals. There are other ones for you!

I just wanted to see how you would react. You obviously are lying and are encouraging people to get in trouble with the IRS.

>> No.4615524

>>4615508
Regardless the point of my thread was a simple question:
>Is crypto a capital asset?

I apologize for going so off track.

>> No.4616367

>>4614275
>>4614889
My understanding is that it's taxed as income for the business.
>business receives a cryptocoin payment
>converts immediately to USD
>taxes filed as normal income
This is the suggested IRS Approved™ way

Or
>business does not convert it immediately
>coin gains value
>business cashes it out later, effectively rolling income into capital gains
>taxes filed as ???

As far as the customer goes, I don't see why it would be reported at all because it's not a capital loss or gain. It's just a sale, the taxes of which are handled by the business. So if you bought $100 in BTC and used that to later buy $200 in gift cards, you should be fine. I guess it's like reverse inflation. That's a real thinker, huh?

>> No.4616458

>>4616367
Actually, ignore me. I think I'm confusing a lot of things at once without doing proper research.

>> No.4616756
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4616756

leaving the technical aspects (and new possibilities at tricking the jews) aside, isn't this just another case of dealing with/in foreign currency?

>> No.4616790

>>4616756
No, the IRS treats cryptos as property, like gold.

>> No.4616817

>>4614113
You seem to forget that the IRS operates under the "guilty until proven innocent" protocol. It's not up to them to prove they weren't losses, it's up to you to prove they were losses.

>> No.4616844

>>4616817
and that is exactly why this shit is unconstitutional

>> No.4616889
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4616889

>>4614295
>Property to property trades are taxed
>inb4 transaction fee by uncle on each and every fucking coin out there, no matter what.
How do 12% sound for a start? Just in case: could we toss our coins into the sea? Yes?

>> No.4616963
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4616963

If Trump tax plan passes, what will be the new capital gains tax rate?

>> No.4617226
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4617226

>>4614275
No.
Retail items are not investments.
In order to benefit from a non-taxable exchange of property the property has to be of the same kind you are exchanging it with.

Now buying gold or silver with crypto...
that might be a like-kind exchange.

>> No.4617472

>>4616963
.069%

>> No.4617645

>>4615106
Yes lol

>> No.4617657

>people worried about paying taxes on gains instead of using crypto for its intended purpose
If you have half a brain you will never have to pay taxes again.

>> No.4617720

IRS will tear up every aspect of your life trying to figure out why someone would gift you 100k, then more than likely still make you pay at least 20%

>> No.4617795

>>4615405
It's more that the modified version takes all of her eyelashes away. Pretty gross.

>> No.4617872

>>4614334
It's not if you're in the US

>> No.4618081

Here in scandinavia we have this thing called gift tax. Clever bastards...