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30228495 No.30228495 [Reply] [Original]

Satoshi is just a narcissist who came out with a barebones paper at the right place at the right time when everyone else had been working on the same thing.

Bitcoin is secure because the more money its worth the more energy comes to further guarantee its success, meaning its a belief the price will stay interesting otherwise the large network effect could transfer to another coin and then that coin would be the most secure.

>> No.30228730

>>30228495
What makes you think the "large network effect" can simply TRANSFER to another coin?
Do you understand the laws of physics?

>> No.30228818

>>30228495
If you understand INERTIA then you know that once a network has achieved critical mass and has established itself, it exerts a superior gravitational pull upon all its surrounding objects. That's how planets and stars form.

>> No.30228885
File: 282 KB, 736x1103, sakura 8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
30228885

Cuckoo
Cuckoo
Cuckoo
(The brass quoits of a bed are heard to
jingle)
THE QUOITS: Jigjag, Jigajiga. Jigjag. (A panel of fog rolls back rapidly, revealing rapidly in the jurybox the faces of Martin Cunningham,
foreman silk-hatted, Jack Power, Simon
Dedalus, Tom Kernan, Ned Lambert, John
Henry Menton, Myles Crawford, Lenekan,
Paddy Leonard, Nosey Flynn, M’Coy and the
featureless face of a Nameless One.)
THE NAMELESS ONE: Bareback riding. Weightfor age. Gob, he organised her.
THE JURORS: (All their heads turned to his
voice) Really?
THE NAMELESS ONE: (Snarls) Arse over tip.
Hundred shillings to five.
THE JURORS: (All their heads lowered in
assent) Most of us thought as much.
FIRST WATCH: He is a marked man. Another
girl’s plait cut. Wanted: Jack the Ripper. A
thousand pounds reward.
SECOND WATCH: (Awed, whispers) And in
black. A mormon. Anarchist.

>> No.30228902

>>30228495
You can't simply TRANSFER the network effect like Harry Potter

>> No.30229134

>>30228902
no the belief transfers organically, at first it will be denial when they say bitcoin wont lose its dominance, and then anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance... my guess is as good as any when i say the belief wont be just belief but it will transfer to something that actually has organic use, monero...

>> No.30229526

>>30229134
No, ORGANIC "transfer" only takes place in a CRYSTALLISED network. What you are referring to is organic GROWTH, meaning the gain of new users/nodes/infrastructure/energy to a nucleus that is passed critical mass. Only nuclei which have passed critical mass can experience ORGANIC growth, meaning the Gibbs Free Energy condition is favourable for its size to increase. Monero may have just passed its critical mass, but Bitcoin reached critical mass FIRST. Hence no other coin can EVER catch up with Bitcoin due to entropy favouring the Bitcoin network.

>> No.30229633

>>30228885
is this james joyce?

>> No.30229722

>>30229134
If your scenario here, you are imagining the transfer of Bitcoin MASS into Monero, which could ONLY take place if Bitcoin has NOT passed its critical mass. Meaning it was not GOOD ENOUGH for the free market. The reality is Bitcoin has already passed the critical mass, hence it is GOOD ENOUGH for the free market, hence there is NO REASON OR INCENTIVE for people to switch to another network.

>> No.30230869

>>30229722
the larger bitcoin grows it is impossible to avoid alt coins growing with it, then you naturally give the opportunity for better crypto tools to grow and give that organic growth to them, remember its not the followers who create things, but the leaders who create much better things and are the first to always make their choice, meaning leaders will use the better crypto, followers just follow and blow things up. also you seem to really believe price measures that bitcoin is 'too big to fail'. also dont capitalize all your words its an amateurish writing mistake that you can find plenty enough on reddit

>> No.30231638

>>30230869
it's not even the price that I'm using to measure Bitcoin. It's the number of people user the network and the energy that has been cumulatively put into it. The price is just a proxy to measure its size. Of course alt coins will grow with it - those that have passed critical mass. But they are PHYSICALLY BOUND by the laws of the universe to never catch up and beat Bitcoin BECAUSE it was the first the achieve critical mass. I highlight CRITICAL MASS because there is a MASSIVE difference between the "first to arrive to the market" and the "first to achieve critical mass". These are two very different stories

>> No.30231729

>>30228495
>projecting

>> No.30231751

>>30231638
The "first to arrive to a market" CAN be beaten by another coin IF it has NOT passed critical mass. The "first to achieve critical mass" however, CAN NOT be beaten

>> No.30231842

>>30231638
i have a much simpler measure, if people find the need to use it then it will attract more people to use it simply because it is the best tool to meet consumers demands, i call it "the invisible hand"

>> No.30232141

>>30231638
>the energy that has been cumulatively put into it.
I don't understand why smart people keep saying this.
No energy has been "put" into it. Energy have been used but such energy has been destroyed in the process, it is nowhere to be found.

>> No.30232216

>>30228495
Satoshi is not a narcissist nigga what are you talking about?
Unless you mean to imply that Craig Wright is Satoshi, which he absolutely isn't

>> No.30232249

>>30232141
energy has been STORED in the encryption and the security of the blockchain. You cannot have SECURITY without ENERGY.

>> No.30232347

>>30232141
In order to hack Bitcoin, you need to invalidate ALL transactions in the HISTORY of the blockchain. With each transaction requiring multiple kWh s of energy through the CPU hashing. That is cumulative energy

>> No.30232728

>>30232249
>>30232347
Maybe, I'm too brainlet to understand, but you can't get this "energy" back, can you? If I use my great strength to lock a door in such a way that only someone with a greater strength can force it open, that doesn't mean my strength has been locked in the door

>> No.30233102

>>30232728
The energy is what manifests as VALUE. Energy has been proven to be the base unit of value. It is essentially money in its purest form. The annual GDP of any country is closely correlated with the energy consumption of that country. In your example, if you use GREAT STRENGTH to lock a door, ONLY someone with a GREATER strength can "unlock" the door. Hence, that means only someone with greater ENERGY can unlock it. Then YES that essentially means the energy of you locking the door has been effectively STORED in the door. If you just shut the door without locking it, then it requires NO ENERGY input for anyone to enter, as there is no lock. Hence no energy has been stored on the door

>> No.30233219

>>30229134
Oh look it's another laggard cope thread
>muh monero is like bitcorns only 7 years ago

>> No.30233235

>>30232249

wrong, storing energy implies you can release that energy at a later date, which you can't do with bitcoin. every watt spent on bitcoin can never be retrieved, and the hash value itself has no mathematical value or significance.

>> No.30233255

>>30232728
An energy storage device usually means one can retrieve that energy at will at any time, and people RETRIEVE that energy in the form of wealth, in spending Bitcoins through transactions. This effectively dematerializes the energy of value back into a MASS of value. E = mc^2

>> No.30233318

>>30233102
But if you can't get the energy back, how can you say it is stored?
The energy is lost forever, the rest is just a fabrication of your mind

>> No.30233319

>>30233235
see this comment >>30233255

>> No.30233381

>>30233255
*this effectively MATERIALIZES the energy of value back in the mass of value. By exchanging value for goods and services

>> No.30233465

>>30233318
see this comment >>30233255

>> No.30233555

>>30228495
>narcissist
?????

>> No.30233667

The value of the Bitcoin network is directly DERIVED from the security of the network, which is directly DERIVED from the ENERGY put into securing the network through hashing. So yes, the energy is retrieved OUT of Bitcoin in the form of value. And YES, It IS an ENERGY STORAGE Device.

>> No.30233930

>>30233381

this is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. you have a fundamental misunderstanding of basic economics.

that's like saying if i spend $10,000 to drill deep into the ground to retrieve a rock, that rock is worth more than the same type of rock that i can pick up on the surface for free. the fact that i spent a lot of energy to get that rock doesn't give it value if the rock itself doesn't have intrinsic value.

>> No.30234022

>>30233930
>that's like saying if i spend $10,000 to drill deep into the ground to retrieve a rock, that rock is worth more than the same type of rock that i can pick up on the surface for free. the fact that i spent a lot of energy to get that rock doesn't give it value if the rock itself doesn't have intrinsic value.

what is Gold? KEK

>> No.30234228

>>30233667

it's not an energy storage device, the best you can say is it's a reflection of energy spent.

you also seem to be under the impression that every bitcoin computation is necessary for security, which is incorrect. bitcoin is specifically designed to be very inefficient, to extend the timeline for mining, otherwise all 21 million coins would've been mined very quickly. it has nothing to do with security.

>> No.30234322

>>30234022

gold on the surface would have just as much value as gold a mile down. the value of gold is it's usefulness, the price of gold is its scarcity. energy spent has nothing to do with it.

>> No.30234461

>>30234322

i should clarify this, gold you retrieved from a mile down subsequently has the same value as gold on the surface. but before you go get it, the gold on the surface is worth more, assuming it doesn't belong to someone else, because you don't have to SPEND (NOT STORE) energy to go get it

>> No.30234998

>>30234461
>>>30234228
>>you also seem to be under the impression that every bitcoin computation is necessary for security,
>erm, but yes it is. In order to double spend Bitcoins you need to invalidate the history of all transactions by breaking the blockchain which requires a 51% attack on all Bitcoin nodes, in effect you need more energy than the cumlative energy of half the network's CPUs in its entire history in order to INVALIDATE the blockchain just so you can double spend.

>> No.30235065

>>30234322
How much time do you need to search for a gold nugget per KILO GRAM on the surface vs how much time do you need to search for a gold per KILOGRAM underground with advanced mining equipment?

>> No.30235222

>>30234322
The value of Gold is given to it by the network of people who consider Gold as a monetary metal and good representation of value . That's why it is worth 11 trillion. That is the main use case for Gold.

>> No.30235224

if you want another example, which i suspect will apply to many people currently paying thousands of dollars for internet tokens, consider this...

assume i order a pizza from a store 1 mile away and have it delivered
assume i order a pizza from a store 5 miles away and have it delivered, which is otherwise identical, except that i tell them to leave it in the oven longer, because i enjoy burnt pizza

the burnt pizza from 5 miles away does not store any more energy than the regular pizza from 1 mile away, despite requiring more time in the oven, and more gasoline to have it delivered. you can absolutely waste energy, and that's what the vast majority of crypto calculations represent.

>> No.30235541

>>30235224
The energy required to produce and deliver the 5 mile pizza to you is GREATER than the energy required to produce and deliver the 1 mile pizza to you. The restaurant therefore will charge you more money , if it has not already factored that into the price. IF both pizzas were cooked and DELIVERED to you, was the energy used in cooking and in delivering wasted?

>> No.30235633

>>30235541
If that energy was not spent, then the pizza would not have been cooked, and the would not have been any pizza to deliver. Then you will end up with no pizza. Then you end with no energy to sustain you for the day as you have nothing to eat.

>> No.30235721

>>30235224
Burning pizza doesn't accomplish anything. The more expensive it is to mine a coin the more expensive it is to attack the system. You're criticizing the only interesting thing about crypto and the thing that made it possible as if it's something irrelevant and optional. If you're not interested in the only thing that makes crypto work you're not interested in crypto.
>but all those other features
What other features? PoW security is the only feature in crypto you can't easily implement with traditional tech, only in a less secure way since it's missing PoW security.

>> No.30235772

>>30235222

no, that's how the price is derived. you're confusing price and value.

if gold were 100x more plentiful, the price would be lower, but it would be more valuable to society, because we'd be able to use it in a wider range of applications, which are not viable at the current level of scarcity.

>> No.30235776

its a strange kind of narcissist that doesn't take credit and doesn't want fame

>> No.30235887

>>30235541

the "energy" of the pizza would be the calories available to be consumed, not how much energy was spent making/delivering it, and not the price i paid

>> No.30236042

>>30235887
In your example, you said both the 5 mile and the 1 mile pizza was to be COOKED and DELIVERED to YOU. Hence, if there was NO ENERGY used for making the PIZZA, and there was NO ENERGY used for DELIVERING the pizza, then YOU WOULD END UP WITH NO PIZZA. Do you understand? You will end up with no calories at all.

>> No.30236056

>>30235887
Fuck you retard.

>> No.30236211

>>30235721

this sounds good, but if it actually applied to bitcoin, the early tokens that could be mined very easily would be worth less than the tokens being mined now, which isn't the case.

the mining slope is 100% artificial, it has nothing to do with security.

>> No.30236425

>>30235776
Maybe it was craig wright after all

>> No.30236630

I love arguing with idiots because it only serves to confirm that I am correct in my logic

>> No.30236638

>>30236042

the pizza doesn't get its calories from the energy of the oven or the car. yes, the energy to cook and deliver it is necessary if i want to consume it, but neither of things adds anything to the total number of calories in the pizza.

so mining a bitcoin requires energy for computation, but the computation does add any energy to the hash value itself, which is zero.

>> No.30236772

>>30236211
>, the early tokens that could be mined very easily would be worth less than the tokens being mined now, which isn't the case.
Why? There's no difference between tokens and the price is set by supply and demand, nothing else so what the fuck do you even think you are talking about?
When the early tokens were mined they were worth much less and the security was much cheaper to break. Why am I explaining this to you? Why are you even talking about a subject you know nothing about?
>it has nothing to do with security
What do you base any of your incoherent nonsense on? Why did Bitcoin work and all the other tokens before it didn't? Just luck?

>> No.30236937

>>30236638
You have moved to goal post originally from using the 5 mile and 1 mile pizza to now only looking at the CALORIES in the pizza. In your example, BOTH PIZZAS had to be COOKED and DELIVERED in order for its calories to have been consumed. The final value of the pizza = ingredients value + delivery value + cooking value = ingredients' energy in the form of CALORIES + delivery energy in the form of PETROL + cooking energy in the form of HEAT. The restaurant WILL NOT charge you BELOW that price

>> No.30237127

>>30236638
You really don't understand how retarded talking about the calories of the pizza is? For some braindead incomprehensible reason you decided that to argue against PoW the best course of action was to make arguments about how the price of food is related to the calorie content.. which it is not.
The price is in fact related to the amount of effort or "energy" it took to serve you the pizza like the other guy said since otherwise the seller would go out of business but it has nothing to do with the caloric energy content of the product.

>> No.30237190

>>30236937
The pizza's final and Ultimate USE case is to act as FOOD. Period.
Just as Gold's final and Ultimate USE case is to act as a MONETARY METAL. Period.
Just as Bitcoin's final and Ultimate USE case is to act as MONEY in its purest form - ENERGY. Period.

>> No.30237532

>>30228495
>Bitcoin is secure because the more money its worth the more [miners] come to further guarantee its success, meaning its a belief the price will stay interesting otherwise the large network effect could transfer to another coin and then that coin would be the most secure.

they are spending a scarce resource, energy, which has alternative uses to create an object which brings profit for their business (formerly hobby). its the belief that bitcoins price will remain high, so more serious miners can come in and acquire a piece of that pie, if price was lower it wont mean there is less energy combined holding the network together, it would mean demand has decreased, and less serious miners can stay in profit. if demand doesnt increase or remain stable over time miners will also leave the network because there is no more incentive

>> No.30238103

>>30237190

but we're not talking about use cases, we're talking about energy, and i haven't moved those goalposts.

if you want to say bitcoin is a reflection of energy consumed, fine. if it is a store of energy, it's the worst store ever. how big is the blockchain? 300gb? i can fit that on a thumbdrive. how much energy does it use? more than the country of argentina. don't tell me a ledger on a flash drive is a store of energy comparable to what a major country consumes.

>> No.30238398

>>30238103
>How much energy does it use? More than argentina.

Bitcoin is a GLOBAL currency because it is sovereign only to the INTERNET. Go figure.

The Ledger on a flash drive is not what stores the energy, again it is the SECURITY through information that is storing the energy.

Energy is interchangeable with value.

Water is valuable to humans because we biologically demand it in order to survive. If humans and all life were extinct tomorrow, there would be no such thing as value, or even "intrinsic" value, which is a made up term by Keynesian economists who aren't even considered scientists.

>> No.30238519

>>30238398
DEMAND, on the other hand, is a function of the NETWORK EFFECT, Which further increases the value at the mid market price

>> No.30238739

>>30238398

brb, enabling bitlocker in case the power ever goes out

>> No.30238879

>>30228902
Xrp

>> No.30238930

>>30228495
the bitcoin whitepaper is genius and will unironically be one of the most important papers written in the 21st century

>> No.30239382

>>30229134
Bitcoin only gets replaced by Monero if there's a government attack on crypto which Monero survives and Bitcoin doesn't. That scenario has a reasonable probability over the long term, though I am not convinced Monero survives either. Some cryptocurrency will survive or be built afterward, but it's an open question whether any cryptocurrency which exists today is capable of surviving a concerted attack by one or more superpowers.
What will not happen, ever, is Bitcoin slowly and peacefully getting replaced by Monero. The only thing that stands any chance of flipping Bitcoin that way is a smart contract chain, most likely Ethereum but possibly one of the ETH killers.

>> No.30239435

>>30238398

AVAILABLE energy is interchangeable with value

SPENT energy is gone. hopefully it was used on something productive, but it can absolutely be wasted.

>> No.30239685

>>30228495
>Satoshi is just a narcissist who came out with a barebones paper at the right place at the right time when everyone else had been working on the same thing.

Holy fuck imagine being THAT insecure lmao, ngmi

>> No.30240512

>>30239435
WASTED is a subjective term just like value. Instead, of comparing energy consumption of just producing Bitcoin, perhaps you should consider the EFFICIENCY of transacting using a ledger instead of the current banking system.
SPENDING energy means you EXCHANGE it for something. SPENDING value means you exchange it for goods and services. The value of the Bitcoin as a medium of exchange is therefore a REPRESENTATIVE of the value of the goods and services which can be transacted. That's why Bitcoin is a MEDIUM of exchange.

>> No.30240888
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30240888

>> No.30240968
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30240968

Bitcoin is a scam.

>> No.30241038
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30241038

>>30240968
Take the silver pill.

>> No.30241159

>>30239382
see which prefer monero over bitcoin, that should conclusively tell. but who doesnt choose to transact with litecoin everytime they are given the choice between bitcoin and litecoin? but not just transactions, but how many are willing to hold onto the supply to construe the supply and demand so price goes up like that. its a funny thing with these crypto currencies that almost all of them there is no difference between the need for 0.000001 or 100 of them, only human greed finds a need to hold more supply, there is no economic benefit of holding more, except for those currencies which have proof of stake. but monero is a tool, bitcoin is not a tool unless you prefer it for peer-to-peer exchange. if gold has the use case where you are holding onto it so later machinery can always use your gold, and you have the option to sell it, monero is similar that you always have the option to transact privately, so that might be the need to hold more, because later more people might demand having access to that tool. that is how the fair price of monero is found if we don't like how useless cryptocurrencies might be, you just might have the incentive to hold more than 0.00000001 monero because you like its use, and other people might also like the use so it is more than just a belief system. i guess the interesting thing with monero is if the price was 1 dollar, instead of finding use for 0.0000001 monero, youd need 100s of monero so you can buy some shopping gift card, again thats because of its benefit as a tool, that it can be more private and faster than bitcoin

>> No.30242134

>Satoshi is just a narcissist

Ah, yes, the stereotypical anonymous narcissist who never steps forward to receive acclaim for his achievements, even after ten years of accelerating adoption of his invention that is literally changing the world

Even when charlatans like Craig Wright claim to be him and bandwagoneers try to fork and clone his IP left and right.

Classic narcissism right there

>> No.30242152
File: 1.53 MB, 1150x4384, monero-is-the-future.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
30242152

>>30239382
>What will not happen, ever, is Bitcoin slowly and peacefully getting replaced by Monero.

Oh yeah?

>> No.30243121

>>30232141
Lol bitcoin is a store of energy. Wait no it isnt. Electricity is expelled and cannot be stored. It can however be created through alternative processes that do less environmental damage. Bitcoin is the first decentralised payment system that works very well. It also requires a lot of energy, speculation, and nodes to keep the network going. 0xBitcoin does not since it carries the fundamentals of Bitcoin over to the Ethereum network and doesnt require wrapping by a centralised middle man.

Check it out

0xbitcoin.org. The best form of bitcoin there is.