/XMR/ Monero General

[Anonymous No.26266488]

Welcome to the Monero General, dedicated to the discussion of the world's leading decentralized p2p privacy cryptocurrency!

Monero is secure, low-fee, and borderless, meaning users can send XMR around the globe despite corrupt governments or broken financial systems. Innovative privacy features such as Ring Signatures, Stealth Addresses, and Ring CT (hidden tx amounts) ensure that Monero's blockchain is obfuscated -- the financial history of all Monero users is encrypted from the prying eyes of adversaries on a public blockchain, with transactions being visible only by a Monero user willingly providing a view key for a specific transaction.

Monero has also improved upon the scaling downsides of current popular cryptos. To avoid high fees, dynamic block size ensures that the size of the blocks will increase as the amount of txs increases. Further, the mining network algorithm RandomX establishes that anybody with a CPU can participate in mining, preventing the ASIC miner domination that creates a high barrier of entry. Lastly, the mining network will be preserved by Tail Emission -- instead of the block reward falling to zero like with Bitcoin, the block reward will gradually approach 0.6 XMR in May 2022, where it will forever stay. This constant linear inflation means the inflation rate will asymptotically go to zero while continuing to provide an incentive to miners to maintain the network.

If you still have questions, feel free to ask and a MoneroChad will be with you shortly.


OFFICIAL WEBSITE - https://web.getmonero.org

WHERE TO GET MONERO?

>KYC:
Binance
Kraken
Bitfinex

>Non KYC:
Local Monero
Morphtoken
Bisq
Kucoin
Tradeogre
Crypto ATMs
see: kycnot.me

>Mining
https://archive.is/TWOah

HOW TO STORE MONERO?

>Desktop
Gui/Cli (recommended)
MyMonero
Exodus
Feather

>Mobile
IOS: Cakewallet
Android: Monerujo
NOTE: MYMONERO FOR ANDROID IS A SCAM. DO NOT DOWNLOAD ON GOOGLE PLAY.

>Cold Storage
https://archive.is/DEfsP

[Anonymous No.26266847]

>>26266488
Monegro.

[Anonymous No.26266937]

Attention Monero Chads: if you want to help out with the generals, please copy the OP and feel free to start a general if there are none in the catalog.
We have had a lot of anons helping out recently, but the more the merrier!

[Chronos No.26267233]

>>26266488
>Dogshit stablecoin general

[Anonymous No.26267380]

>>26267233
I take it you only buy transparent ERC20 shit tokens after they’ve already pumped by 300%?

[Anonymous No.26267417]

>>26267233
>Darknet stablecoin

[Anonymous No.26267531]

>>26266937
copied.

[Anonymous No.26267565]

>>26267531
Thanks anon!

[Anonymous No.26267686]

>>26266488
>This constant linear inflation means the inflation rate will asymptotically go to zero
Here you are saying that the supply will approach infinity. Just so you know.

[Anonymous No.26267885]

Im missed the bullrun while holding this trash.
Im out.
Ill just buy back next year after i x10 on real coins and monero finally breaks $200

[Anonymous No.26268001]

>>26267885
thanks. more xmr for me

[Anonymous No.26268122]

>>26266488
we're reaching levels of comfy thought impossible

[Anonymous No.26268135]

>>26267686
Wait, do you mean the chosen words In the copypasta actually mean that, or do you mean that’s what you think Monero does?

[Anonymous No.26268162]

best stablecoin?

[Anonymous No.26268174]

>>26267686
Linear approaching infinity (monero) is different from exponentially approaching infinity (fiat). Inflation only matters for long term investments anyway, and for such please reffer to pic

[Anonymous No.26268286]

>>26268162
whole market crashes, monero -4%

[LebAnon No.26268294]

>>26266937
yes please because jannies ain't letting me off the hook any time soon
thank you to all XMR chads

[LebAnon No.26268356]

>>26268286
truly based

[Anonymous No.26268463]

>>26268162
This
Monero must be going after the Tether market.

Imagine if holding Monero since 2018. I'd be crying watching the whole market while monero only did x3 at best

>>26268286
>whole market crashes, monero -4%
Whole marker x4, monero x1.3

[Anonymous No.26268591]

>>26268174
Yes that is correct but doesn’t mean my objection was not valid to the sloppy formulation I objected to.

[Anonymous No.26268619]

>>26268463
Well it shows XMR is largely decoupled now from BTC. For better or worse.

[Anonymous No.26268664]

>>26268463
>Whole marker x4, monero x1.3
i'm not all in

[Anonymous No.26268681]

>>26268591
Your argument is valid however XMR system is better then fiat and worse then BTC is scarcity is the desired goal.

[Anonymous No.26268697]

>>26268591
Te formulation is correct though, the *inflation rate* will go to zero.

[Anonymous No.26268779]

by posting in this thread i am directly contributing to the sucess of monero and all its future endeavors!

[Anonymous No.26268795]

>>26268697
Inflation will go towards zero supply towards infinity. Weird thing really.

[Anonymous No.26268823]

Would like to point everyone's attention to incognito.org, they stand for similar values as us, still new and under the radar basically feeless dex with the main point of cross-chain anonimity and privacy.

They did say they need more liquidity in monero, and hence when staked we get high interest on it, 13% APY.

I really think this could be a symbiotic relationship between the two communities.

[Anonymous No.26269124]

>>26268795
It’s a dumb argument because infinity is being misused.
The inflation rate approaches zero, and the tail emission recoups lost coins and provides an incentive to miners.
As it is, there will be less monero than bitcoin until 2040.

[Anonymous No.26269173]

>>26268463
>Whole market x4, monero x1.3
Got into crypto early april to escape inflation with the money I had sitting in my 0.00% interest rate savings acount. I'm not mad about "only" +30% in 9 months, it's already more than I've made off all savings accounts in my lifetime (25yo). Combined with my btc holdings the avarage return is more like +180% or so.

[Anonymous No.26269317]

>>26268619
This. I see this as a good sign. It's healthy, unlike BTC. It's a good time to accumulate. BTC has issues with privacy, once the state realizes that you can literally trace every transaction and they start going after your cryptos, people will flee to XMR. The upward pressure will be like nothing else.

Any, ofc, if that doesn happen, it just means that BTC can solve these issues by itself, which means that the good guys have won. I am OK with that, too

[Anonymous No.26269365]

>>26266488
XMR is slowly engulfing the rest of my holdings. This coin will be TRULY IMMENSE in future.

[Anonymous No.26269838]

Gilda wants to know how much [Redacted] you are holding. You WILL tell her, right?
Personally, I'm sitting on [An unknown amount] and feeling comfy.

[Anonymous No.26269969]

I'm buying XMR because I think the Canadian dollar is going to crash any day now. The relative stability and actual use as a currency makes it ideal for that sort of thing.

[Anonymous No.26270010]

>>26269838
I possess [a modest amount] that accounts for a [good proportion] of my money.

[Anonymous No.26270210]

>>26269173
Thats a new one:
>mxr is not that bad because i also hold btc and btc made me a bunch of money!

[Anonymous No.26270414]

>>26270210
kill yourself moonboy faggot

[Anonymous No.26270723]

>>26270210
it's called a "balanced portfolio" and apperantly that's a new thing to /biz/. Uncorrelated assets is a good thing, and I don't even have to bother with traditional banking

[Anonymous No.26270748]

Bumping my questions from a previous thread:

>>26222737
Are there telegram groups like this in other countries, where you meet in person to exchange XMR for cash?

Is it possible to trade stocks for monero, maybe a better question would be, is there a broker that trades both stocks and crypto? Asking for a friend that might want to transfer stock gains into crypto.

I'm interested in mining but if I've understood correctly, for it to breakeven you would need a pretty ridiculous set up and low elec fees.
https://www.cryptocompare.com/mining/calculator/xmr?HashingPower=73&HashingUnit=KH%2Fs&PowerConsumption=2000&CostPerkWh=0.12&MiningPoolFee=1
I have a crappy laptop that I could put to work, how do esitmate its hashrate?

>>26266608
>re send the monero to another address inside your wallet, that exchange can not be traced
Based, did not think of this

[Anonymous No.26271031]

>>26270210

[Anonymous No.26271107]

>>26271031
>Hello

[Anonymous No.26271293]

>>26267686
It's two different ways of saying the same thing.

[Anonymous No.26271576]

>>26270748
>Are there telegram groups like this in other countries, where you meet in person to exchange XMR for cash?
bisq and similar platforms have a cash-bx-mail option. Depending on you local tax laws it might be smart to buy on an exchange so you can prrof you bought it on a certain date. Withdraw from exchange immediately and you can always claim you lost your keys later.

>Is it possible to trade stocks for monero, maybe a better question would be, is there a broker that trades both stocks and crypto? Asking for a friend that might want to transfer stock gains into crypto.
Don't know about any, depending on the amount you may want to contact https://sweetwater.consulting/; the dude is pretty based judging from his yt videos

>I'm interested in mining but if I've understood correctly, for it to breakeven you would need a pretty ridiculous set up and low elec fees.
If electricity is free you can generate cents per day with an avarage computer

>I have a crappy laptop that I could put to work, how do esitmate its hashrate?
Search for a similar CPU on https://monerobenchmarks.info/

Didn't read all of the other thread, but if you live in a contry that doesn't like crypto, you should always hand out new receive addresses for each transaction, churn your monero and practice good opsec to avoid off-chain meta data attact such as timing correlations. And don't ever talk about it irl. Stay safe.

[Anonymous No.26271603]

>>26269969
> the Canadian dollar
so like every other dollar or fiat currency?

[Anonymous No.26271712]

>>26271603
Yes, exactly.

[Anonymous No.26271858]

>>26267417
>>26268162
>>26268286
When tether finally breaks apart we should grab all that marketshare

[Anonymous No.26271972]

>>26269838
Who the fuck is Gilda? Is this some anime shit?

[Anonymous No.26272047]

>>26271858
Tell me more about imagination land

[Anonymous No.26272752]

>>26272047
>Monero must be going after the Tether market.
I only made a new logo to match your suggestion, who the fuck even want to be the next tether

[Anonymous No.26273090]

Waiting for a retrace to 0.007

[Anonymous No.26273398]

>>26269317
that would be the case if XMR had cap, which it doesn't and after initial completion of XMR coins, i think it some fraction? generated into supply per transaction

so it does not seem to be an investment that grows money. hides well yes, hence darknet stablecoin and plenty of trasaction of illegal activities. which will constantly pump XMR into the supply keeping the overall value of still down

XMR will grow but not to the extent some capped supplies will unless govt daddy shuts everything down

XMR growth potential is limited by its actual usability and ability to create new XMR coins. Kind of like steel compared to gold

[Anonymous No.26273811]

>>26273398
Dude, what. I think you are confusing fees collected by the network for transactions happen with miner rewards. Monero transactions do not add to the supply, mining does. Mining rewards will taper off to a stable release of 0.6 XMR per two minutes forever starting in 2022. Fees are paid by the sender and do not add to the overall supply.

[Anonymous No.26273893]

>>26273398
There will be less Monero than Bitcoin until 2040. These worries about too many Monero being in circulation are asinine. Bitcoin is worth 35k and there is more Bitcoin than Monero at this moment.

[Anonymous No.26274144]

why you niggas hodling XMR lmfao

literally the crab token, I made crazy bank in 3 months in all of my tokens except for this piece of shit only up 16%

How pathetic!

[Anonymous No.26274175]

>>26266488
Guys, I have a ryzen 3 3200G is it enough to mine monero? I don’t really care about energy, and while mining can I still use the PC?

[Anonymous No.26274193]

>>26273893
Who the fuck cares about supply? What matters is adoption.

[Anonymous No.26274195]

what unknown amount of monero is a make it stack?

[Anonymous No.26274252]

>>26274144
Monero is to shitcoins what Facebook was to MySpace. We are in that between period.

[Anonymous No.26274323]

>>26274195
Consensus is ~50 stashed in cold storage

[Anonymous No.26274343]

>>26273398
>unless govt daddy shuts everything down
If you don't think that's the most likely outcome in the next 10 years, you're up to some rough awakenings

[Anonymous No.26274396]

>>26274193
Agreed. The “infinite supply” meme is retarded. Adoption is far more important, and on that front, Monero is doing very well.

[Anonymous No.26274417]

>>26274343
The CIA created bitcoin so they could launder money and send money to proxies without dropping cash. If they haven't shut it down in 10 years they probably allow it to exist.

[Anonymous No.26274477]

>>26274417
>laundering money with a transparent block chain
Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.26274573]

>>26274477
>He doesn't know about washing coins and is talking shit about bitcoin's privacy shortcomings in a fucking Monero thread
Nigger

[Anonymous No.26274591]

>>26274323
Then I need a lot more, part in cold storage and part in lsd/weed/vpn/emergency active wallet

[Anonymous No.26274639]

Sent one coin to the GUI wallet, gone forever..

[Anonymous No.26274682]

>>26274591
There's plenty time to accumulate, a little less than ~50 is still very good. We're gunna make it anon.

[Anonymous No.26274697]

>>26274573
Anon, bitcoin came before all other crypto. Washing didn’t exist back then. Why would the cia create a blockchain to launder money that literally publically displays every transaction? That’s qanon tier retarded.

[Anonymous No.26274809]

>>26274639
Why?

[Anonymous No.26274834]

>>26274195
people around here usually say:
suicide stack: 18.7
comfy stack: 50
make it stack: 100

This is based on an estimated 5-digit value of xmr in 10 years.

[Anonymous No.26275090]

Utility and adoption are what matter in the long run. Monero by its fundamentally covert nature is inevitably going to prove VERY useful to some VERY wealthy entities, criminal or otherwise.

Tax evasion and money laundering are entering the crypto age, gentlemen. And its agents won't be using anything else but the best, most battle-hardened and demonstrably reliable privacy coin as their freedom will literally depend on them getting it right.

Truly the comfiest of holds.

[Anonymous No.26275105]

>>26274697
There were conferences in the early 2000s about cryptocurrencies that were attended by libertarian types and Feds of various descriptions. There was even an Internet token crypto backed by gold in those days that came from that but I can't remember it's name. Satoshi Nakamoto translates to central intelligence in Jap, the bitcoin protocol was a near flawless execution of something that very few people outside of intelligence services have the skills to accomplish. ISIS and other proxies known to have used bitcoin. NSA well known to have created TOR browser as an anonymous browser for Feds but only allowed for anonymity if it was released to the general public, because if only feds used the browser you know who the feds are. All of this is well understood theory on the origin of bitcoin, which remains unclear and was unlikely to be some savant or a comp Sci project gotten out of control.

[Anonymous No.26275175]

>>26274809
It's not showing lol

[Anonymous No.26275239]

>>26275175
You need to connect to a remote node and scan the block chain. Do you know how to do this?
Go here: https://www.getmonero.org/resources/user-guides/remote_node_gui.html

[Anonymous No.26275243]

>>26275175
XMR transactions take ~30 minutes, and depending on which GUI wallet you have, may need to manually refresh XMR

[Anonymous No.26275269]

>>26275175
It takes around 20 minutes to show
Is your wallet updated?

[Anonymous No.26275297]

>>26273398
kys esl retard

[Anonymous No.26275346]

>>26274175
You can dedicate a couple threads. My 3600 works perfectly fine for desktop work with 10 threads mining

[Anonymous No.26275428]

>>26274591
Based
>>26274834
What's the meaning of a "suicde" stack anyway

[Anonymous No.26275482]

>>26275105
E-gold

[Anonymous No.26275502]

>>26275239
Going to try this now

[Anonymous No.26275508]

>>26274834
>10 years
Nigga, are you fuckin retarded.
In 10 years 5 digits with inflation will be nothing.
Are you 12? Nobody got 10 years to waste waiting on some shitcoin.

It needs to be 5 digits in 3 years max or it wasnt worth it.

[Anonymous No.26275510]

>>26275346
Thanks, I really wanted to know, hopefully I can finally move from an undisclosed amount to an unknown amount

[Anonymous No.26275584]

>>26275482
Ah yes that was it, thanks anon. >>26275508
If you sold bitcoin anytime between 2011 and 2 weeks ago you lost out.

[Anonymous No.26275685]

>>26275428
There are some people who knew about bitcoin extremely early, maybe even had a few, but didn't have any when the price skyrocketed. The though of "I could be a billionair right now" drove some people to suicide.

A suicide stack is the minimum to not kys when it happens to be successful in the future.

[Anonymous No.26275759]

>>26266488
How long until Bitcoin prices Monerbros?

[Anonymous No.26275810]

>>26275759
Tether would finally have to fail or china would have to pull their 51% attack.

[Anonymous No.26276070]

>>26275685
How many Moneros for 200k USD in 5 years?
With that amount I can buy a house without having to pay a dime to the kikes and still have enough to invest in my own business

[Anonymous No.26276093]

If moenro develops atomic swaps basically in a unilateral way, since btc core has no interest/need/consensus to do that, would that make sense that atomic swaps could be roguely implemented on other protocols too? Imagine the so much discussed CBDC and all kind of stuff.
Would XMR hypothetically be able to become a literal black hole for digital assets? Given that the adversary chain has capability to send assets to unrestricted addresses, or a network of nodes running the swap contracts gets big and dynamic enough?

That's the most bull(sh)i(t)sh I can think of.
Sry awake since 4am I am possibly not making any sense rn

[Anonymous No.26276105]

>>26273398
these are the people we're trading against lol

[Anonymous No.26276128]

>>26271576

Thank you!!

>buy on an exchange so you can prrof you bought it on a certain date
I'm UK so I dont think I'd need to

>https://sweetwater.consulting/
Good call, I just watched his (very good) intro vid yesterday and it didn't come to mind haha

>If electricity is free
if only

>https://monerobenchmarks.info/
A similar one came in at a cheeky 1500 H/s. just shy of .3 a year lol

>>26271107
>how can i help

[Anonymous No.26276223]

>>26275105
okay sorry anon, have to call massive bullshit on a few points. of course, i cant comment on early 2000s conferences, and an internet token crypto backed by gold, no information on the internet whatsoever is found on these claims.
this debunk will instead focus on just a couple of points i can disprove with source. it also includes crucial info for monerobros.
first of all, satoshi nakamoto (中本聪) in no way translates to anything even remotely close to "central intelligence"
(聪) : quick at hearing, intelligent, bright
(中) : middle, inbetween
(本) : blades of grass, tree trunks, book
the second claim is that bitcoin is something "near flawless" and only accomplishable by a savant genius mind, is wrong, as this writing argues in lenght (https://www.gwern.net/Bitcoin-is-Worse-is-Better))
the technological pieces for developing bitcoin was ready were all present before 2008, the truly key elements all before 2000
cont.

[Anonymous No.26276277]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biden-yellen/act-big-on-stimulus-bidens-treasury-nominee-yellen-tells-lawmakers-idUSKBN29O1WX
BULLISH FOR XMR

[Anonymous No.26276324]

>>26276223
2001: SHA-256 finalized
1999–present: Byzantine fault tolerance (PBFT etc.)
1999–present: P2P networks (excluding early networks like Usenet or FidoNet; MojoNation & BitTorrent, Napster, Gnutella, eDonkey, Freenet, i2p etc.)
1998: Wei Dai, B-money5
1997: HashCash; 19986: Nick Szabo, Bit Gold; ~2000: MojoNation/BitTorrent; ~2001–2003, Karma, etc
1992–1993: Proof-of-work for spam7
1991: cryptographic timestamps
1980: public key cryptography8
1979: Hash tree
as you can see, nothing was added by Satoshi himself, and it requiried no cryptographycal invention on his behalf. he simply had to put the pieces together.
A self-taught programmer skill was more than enough.

[Anonymous No.26276366]

>>26276223
>Intelligent
>Middle
Retard alert

[Anonymous No.26276421]

>>26276128
>>If electricity is free
>if only
Some student apartment (can't remember the correct name) have a fixed rent including heating, electricity and internet. Also if you have an electric heater, you can replace it with your mining rig, it heats and produces some xmr as a byproduct.

just fyi

[Anonymous No.26276504]

>>26276421
>Not taking you XMR rig to your university and just straight stealing electricity from the Government
NGMI

[Anonymous No.26276539]

>>26276093
>If moenro develops atomic swaps basically in a unilateral way, since btc core has no interest/need/consensus to do that, would that make sense that atomic swaps could be roguely implemented on other protocols too?

Yes, the Farcaster (primary AS development) team has indicated they ultimately intend to expand AS capability to other chains. BTC. LTC and ETH are likely next.

>Would XMR hypothetically be able to become a literal black hole for digital assets?

That's kind of the idea: other assets can default to XMR as their privacy layer since Monero's transactional privacy is unparalleled.

[Anonymous No.26276638]

>>26276128
>Why xmr number never do anything. All frens are rich and laughing. I scared I gonna do neck rope soon.

[Anonymous No.26276709]

>>26276539
Nice

[Anonymous No.26276725]

Why hold this over physical gold and silver?

[Anonymous No.26276783]

>>26276725
>Why hold this over physical gold and silver?

Because criminals use it.

[Anonymous No.26276786]

>>26276324
>nothing was added by satoshi himself
except proof of work, adam back is satoshi :p
which kinda sucks because hes retarded

[Anonymous No.26276819]

>>26276504
>student apartments directly build and maintained by university
>internet access through universities backbone connection 50Mbit/s down & 50Mbit/s up
>fully legal mining operation
>extra comfy

[Anonymous No.26276820]

>>26276539
Would atomic swaps count as trade volume?
If so, trade volume would become meaningless because it would be so easy to fake.

[Anonymous No.26276840]

>>26276725
for the same reason you didn't write physical letters, and mailed it by post to all of us, to various locations of the world.

[Anonymous No.26276863]

>>26276725
More fungible. Unless you need gold or silver for industrial purposes, it's a bad investment.

[Anonymous No.26276865]

who else gambling shitcoins to improve monero stack here?

[Anonymous No.26276881]

>>26276725
An infinite amount fits on a rolling paper
Can be sent worldwide without even travelling with nuggets up your lower intestines

[Anonymous No.26276898]

>>26276820
transactions on btc blockchain look identical to normal transactions. This would push the visible transaction volume up and the trading volume on exchanges down

[Anonymous No.26276899]

>>26275090

[Anonymous No.26276900]

>>26276725
executive order 6102
i own gold and silver though

also, this is not a crypto for holding, but for spending. on potions that fortify attributes.

[Anonymous No.26276905]

>>26276783
This is literally the ONLY thing xmr has going for it.

To the extent that i wouldnt be surprised if the xmr dev team were responsible for at least one of the darknet markets that only accept xmr. whm comes to mind because of how secure they're trying to be.

[Anonymous No.26276958]

>>26276786
well proof of work is not a cryptographical invention, it is an IT concept implementation, which includes previously invented cryptographical stuff(namely SHA-256).
And man, i dont know who satoshi was, could have been anybody lol. Maybe it was this "Adam" guy.

[Anonymous No.26276963]

>>26276905
>the only thing xmr has going for it is that its internet money that is actually being used as money

[Anonymous No.26276988]

>>26276898
Yea, but because it doesnt cost anything and cant be traced, whats stopping somebody from writing a script that just trades the same coins back and forth to pump up volume.

[Anonymous No.26277020]

>>26276820
>Would atomic swaps count as trade volume?
>If so, trade volume would become meaningless because it would be so easy to fake.

They're currently figuring it out. I imagine they'll be using some kind of blockchain tech to maintain consensus.

[Anonymous No.26277048]

>>26276421
I did think of this, a coodinated setup with lots of people running sizable rigs from different rooms could net you a fortune worth [REDACTED]

[Anonymous No.26277073]

>>26273811
you are correct, my bad

[Anonymous No.26277140]

>>26275090
Also, adding all that to the current political climate, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say we are soon entering the point of accelerationism for all that to come true.

[Anonymous No.26277222]

>>26266488
Does XMR have any use other than buying illegal goods?

[Anonymous No.26277247]

>>26277222
no. this worthless anonymous money is only good for buying and selling things

[Anonymous No.26277329]

>>26277247
I knew it!
fucking garbage. Im out

[Anonymous No.26277361]

>>26276905
>This is literally the ONLY thing xmr has going for it

Not the ONLY but definitely the PRIMARY. Fortunately, criminals, tax evaders and money launderers tend to be very wealthy and are prone to shifting their assets around with as much stealth and obfuscation as is available to them.

>To the extent that i wouldnt be surprised if the xmr dev team were responsible for at least one of the darknet markets that only accept xmr. whm comes to mind because of how secure they're trying to be.

The XMR devs are OG hodlers, they're already super-rich or well on their way.

[Anonymous No.26277466]

>>26277247
>worthless
>good for buying and selling things

[LebAnon No.26277510]

>>26277361
dangerously based

[Anonymous No.26277513]

>>26277140
>Also, adding all that to the current political climate, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say we are soon entering the point of accelerationism for all that to come true.

Yep, its often said that privacy will be crypto's next killer app.

[Anonymous No.26277706]

>>26276725
Easier to move across borders without confiscation.

[Anonymous No.26277772]

>>26276725
I don't see a conflict in owning both... I would chose PMs first for its tangibility. 1oz=1oz, always.

PMs for inflation security and value in post fiat world, and for tangible means of exchange that isnt just barter. PMs will always be valuable (inb4 asteroids).

There is also the speculative element of silver (and to a lesser extent gold) as an industrial metal that may increase in demand.

XMR I gather is for its privay, and as a consequence the speculative element of it being worth much more than it is now due to adoption potential as >>26275090 describes.

[Anonymous No.26277818]

>>26276905
>>26276963
>the only thing xmr has going for it is that it works

[Anonymous No.26277850]

>Are Cryptocurrencies 'Super' Tax Havens?

>112 Michigan Law Review First Impressions 38 (2013), 11 Pages Posted: 5 Aug 2013 Last revised: 5 Jul 2015

Abstract

I describe the mechanisms by which cryptocurrencies — a subcategory of virtual currencies — could replace tax havens as the weapon-of-choice for tax-evaders. I argue such outcome is reasonably expected in the foreseeable future due to the contemporary convergence of two processes. The first process is the increasing popularity of cryptocurrencies, of which Bitcoin is the most widely recognized example.

The second process is the transformation of financial intermediaries to agents in the service of tax authorities, as part of the fight against offshore tax evasion. Financial institutions are faced with increased governmental pressure to deliver information about account holders, to withhold taxes from earnings accumulating in financial accounts, and to remit such taxes to taxing authorities around the world.

Significantly, cryptocurrencies possess all the traditional characteristics that tax havens do; Earnings are not subject to taxation, and taxpayers’ anonymity is maintained. The operation of cryptocurrencies, however, is not dependent on the existence of financial intermediaries. Thus, cryptocurrencies have the potential of defeating the recent successes of governments in battling offshore tax evasion.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2305863

[Anonymous No.26277943]

>>26276786
Proof of work was originally used as a form DDOS protection long before it was applied to crypto.

[Anonymous No.26277998]

>>26277943
>>26276786
also Satoshi Nakamoto is Nicholas van Saberhagen

[Anonymous No.26278054]

>>26276988
Fees, like right now

[Anonymous No.26278092]

they always say usecase is for criminals but forget that privacy is actually needed for everyone, or do you want to tell Walmart your net worth when you make a purchase?

[Anonymous No.26278108]

>>26277943
I did not know this, thanks!

[Anonymous No.26278357]

>>26278092
that's not even the worse, imagine you got coins that were used to buy drugs in the past and now Walmart doesnt accept it so they dont have to hold "criminal money" they can simply not accept your money because of its history

[Anonymous No.26278578]

>>26275243
cmon senpai, it takes seconds to show up in tx pool and no more than 2 minutes for a single confirmation. merchants + xmr.to accept payment once it shows up in the tx pool which again is seconds functionally

[Anonymous No.26279211]

>>26278578
in my experience, transferring from exchange to my desktop wallet (exodus) has taken ~30 minutes for it to show up.

[Anonymous No.26279919]

>>26277466
also if cryptocurrency actually ever becomes something more than just another speculative bubble, why would anyone use a public blockchain where any random schmuck can view their balances and txs. Imagine if that's how bank accounts worked lmao. Boggles my mind that people still don't get it.

[Anonymous No.26279920]

>>26279211
That is because your exchange is scamming you and putting a to low fee while asking a higher withdrawal. Shit takes like 10m or less

[Anonymous No.26280035]

>>26277222
does paper cash have any other use other than buying illegal goods?

[Anonymous No.26280410]

Monero currently feels like Bitcoin in 2013 desu
Let's see how it will play out

[Anonymous No.26280458]

>>26268174
basically the more XMR is in circulation the less the total supply is affected by measly 0.6 blocks.

I don't understand that valuation they give on the right hand side though, what is it supposed to mean?

[Anonymous No.26280583]

>>26280458
total market cap in million$ by 2120 assuming 8/8/2020 prices

[Anonymous No.26280625]

>>26280458
market cap in million$ by 2120 assuming 8/8/2020 prices

[Anonymous No.26280673]

>>26274477
Blockchains weren't transparent when state actors didn't have the means to read them. What he's saying makes sense, as it also makes sense to imagine that pretty soon the spooks will be paying their pocket dictators and puppet governments in XMR

[Anonymous No.26280703]

>>26278108
np fellow monero chad

[Anonymous No.26280846]

>>26280410
I agree, and i think it has the chance to snowball even faster than btc did.

[Anonymous No.26280857]

>>26280458
>>26280625
It's the price today for 0.0001% of the blockchain (or share of gold in circulation).

[Anonymous No.26281417]

>>26276786
It's definitely not Adam. Adam directly contradicts just about everything satoshi ever wrote. Pretty sure he was Hal Finney.

[Anonymous No.26281425]

>>26277998

[Anonymous No.26281896]

>>26280703
Based photo, saving this in my “Very Important” folder.

[Anonymous No.26282040]

>>26279211
Your exchange is shitty. Try sending to another address yourself. Literally takes seconds to a couple of minutes at most.

[Anonymous No.26282058]

>>26279211
exchanges are retarded brother. i don't mean to be harsh but you should really try using the cryptocurrency for an actual transaction to see how it functions in the real world rather than moving it to and from an exchange.

[Anonymous No.26282906]

bump

[Anonymous No.26283812]

bump

[Anonymous No.26284278]

>>26276905
>This is literally the ONLY thing xmr has going for it.
And that's a good thing! Fuck the po-leece.

[Anonymous No.26284287]

>>26281417
it's adam he just sold his soul for money

[Anonymous No.26285039]

i hate myself for not buying more at 60

[Anonymous No.26285103]

Monero is love

[Anonymous No.26286017]

>>26285039
at least you did buy at 60 though

[Anonymous No.26286286]

>bought a small unknown amount of monero in 2017 at $40
>mooned shortly thereafter
>vowed that if the price ever got that low again I would accumulate a larger unknown amount
>never did
>price went back up, still got one more chance during covid crash
>still didnt fucking buy in, had plenty of cash
>now buying in at 4x the price
Don't be like me.

[Anonymous No.26286317]

>>26285039
No need to hate yourself. 99.999% of the population will never have Monero at the current price. You're one of the lucky few.

[Anonymous No.26286413]

>>26266488
LOKI (now Oxen) XMR. From a spec standpoint. From a market-cap standpoint. From a usage standpoint. Refute this.

[Anonymous No.26286849]

>>26266488
How dependent is Monero's price on BTC's if BTC and USD collapse, will monero's price dump as well? I do notice Monero's price isnt effected by the current bull run.

[Anonymous No.26287150]

>>26286849
Monero has possibly decoupled from btc. Look at the chart on coinmarketcap.

If btc were to crash or disappear tomorrow, xmr would still be used on the darkweb markets.

People havent realized but xmr is replacing btc.

[Anonymous No.26287474]

>>26287150
>xmr is replacing btc
where can I read more about that? Where do I look? Because if thats true thats my buy signal.

[Anonymous No.26287581]

>>26287474
The largest dark net market place White House market only trades in monero.

[Anonymous No.26287780]

>>26287581
I saw that, when I went to a darknet market recently for fun, I sign popped up that said the market recommended using ONLY Monero for transactions, and that the market was going to slowly switch over to Monero. I forgot the name of the market though

[Anonymous No.26287939]

>>26287150
I just looked at the chart on coingecko and it seems to me Monero follows BTC still, only the recent btc dump shows otherwise but if Monero dumps soon following btc it will mean monero has not decoupled from btc right?

[Anonymous No.26288023]

>>26277048
If I hadn't been kicked my university student's government for being a lazy piece of shit, I would do this 100%, I had my own office

[Anonymous No.26288095]

>>26287474
>xmr is replacing btc
>where can I read more about that? Where do I look? Because if thats true thats my buy signal.

[Anonymous No.26288162]

Guys I'm thinking about DCA'ing into this coin but I have a limited budget cuz I'm living in a poor country and I've got roughly $250 worth of money to invest into something every month. Should I buy BTC/ETH too? If so what should my ratios be?

[Anonymous No.26288249]

>>26288162
I forgot to add that I'm thinking about holding for long to short term (2,5 years) if that makes any difference

[Anonymous No.26288253]

>>26268174
Bitcoin only $250k in 100 years? LMAO

[Anonymous No.26288301]

>>26275175
You have to sync the blockchain

[Anonymous No.26288338]

>>26287474
I learned about Monero, about two weeks ago while browsing the darknet, apparently in some sites, where they offer an undisclosed service, you can only register with an undisclosed amount of monero

[Anonymous No.26288386]

>>26276093
Yes once Monero has atomic swaps it will become the primary cleanser of crypto assets. If you want to hide your bitcoin from the government, simply convert it to monero and back to bitcoin, and then send it to your secret bitcoin wallet.

[Anonymous No.26288484]

>>26288338
Monero is probably the only cryptocurrency that is being used as a currency. Everything else is a speculative asset.

[Anonymous No.26288497]

>>26288386
If the atomic swaps work out fine i would expect monero to reach ath if not $1k

[Anonymous No.26288594]

>>26288497
Monero is seriously the comfiest long-term hold.

[Anonymous No.26288657]

>>26288497
>>26288594
Once atomic swaps drops, the big whales come in, I am not talking about a literal who billionare, I am talking about governments and cartels, if KYC is no longer needed, there is no reason not to use monero for your dirty deeds

[Anonymous No.26288769]

>>26288657
I run monero nodes on two PCs and one old laptop. It's nice that you mine Monero with a CPU unlike 99% of other cryptocurrencies. With GPU's skyrocketing in price, just another reason to appreciate XMR

[Anonymous No.26288861]

not gonna lie, I sold at $161
but I kept the ones I mined
I got short term gains to make in DOT but I'm Monero for life.

[Anonymous No.26288978]

Soup boys, I’m downloading the division 2 because it’s dirt cheap on the ps store.

Did I just waste $9? I’m about 70gb through the 111gb download so far.

[Anonymous No.26289042]

>>26288978
Hope you bought it with
M O N E R O

[Anonymous No.26289084]

>>26288978
>Did I just waste $9?
Yes, you could have bought monero with that https://thepiratebay10.org/search/the%20division%202/1/99/0

[Anonymous No.26289165]

>>26274144
pic says it all. we live in a world that we are becoming less private every day. pipl are going to start to realize that and want to take back their privacy. its already starting to happen a bit when trump got banned from twitter. duck duck go has seen a massive increase in usage in 2020, signal has seen a huge increase. I think i saw that proton claimed a increase. its gonna be the future.

[Anonymous No.26289189]

i just bought back into monero after playing with shit coins all day
i improved my stack by 5%
now monero has to do its fucking part and go above 200 dollars, its about god damn time

[Anonymous No.26289196]

>>26266488
dubs of privacy

is it true i can cash out w/o big broski's peeping eyes?

[Anonymous No.26289247]

>>26268619
its not decoupled tho, its like its damped, when btc dumps, monero dumps slower, when btc goes back up, monero goes back up slower.
the net effect is we are bleeding USD right now tho

[Anonymous No.26289546]

>>26289042
I mean, when I get paid I spend whatever was left in my checking on XMR, so I’m a roundabout way I kind of did.

>>26289084
I need to get back into pirating games Ive gone too normie with it.

[Anonymous No.26289568]

I'm a uniswap millienial boomer.
Can someone point me to a Monero tutorial that takes me from fiat on-ramp in a non-KYC exchange to cold storage?

[Anonymous No.26289602]

really intelligble talk that you should all watch because i know most of you cumbrains arent well versed on these topics. i would know because i mainboard biz.

>cryptocurrencies getting regulated to cash or a bearer check
>monero scaling is better before we even talk about privacy between bitcoin
>transaction fees decrease when the network increases
>bitcoin is worse of a regulatory nightmare somewhat
>reddit bitcoiners are in denial mode and will ban you if you mention scaling
>crypto chain analytics are lobbying for regulating because they have their product to sell
>bittrex delisting possibly for political clout
>bitcoin overvalued, privacy, scaling, and decentralization na. chinese pilled.
>2 chads existing in the same room who own no bitcoin

also a really important thing he says at the end which is what i knew before but some of you virgin investors dont understand, you should anchor your crypto portfolio with monero. but like real estate, like gold, you should find other assets if you need to

youtube.com/watch?v=WZItfC5d8Bc

[Anonymous No.26289730]

>>26288861
What are your miners configs?

[Anonymous No.26289834]

How exactly do atomic swaps solve the tainted bitcoin issue?

[Anonymous No.26289852]

>>26289730
just crap dell workstations running windows 7
mostly 4770s
i havent tweaked the config file for optimizations, so maybe im leaving money on the table

[Anonymous No.26289937]

>>26268823
Is this save for my XMR?

[Anonymous No.26289956]

>>26289834
they dont, unless the atomic swap client joins IN on the banning of tainted addresses

[Anonymous No.26290011]

>>26289834
Because it allows to trade your btc to xmr and never go back

[Anonymous No.26290325]

>>26290011
>Because it allows to trade your btc to xmr and never go back

This isn't good for Bitcoin.

[Anonymous No.26290614]

>>26289834
Also different people have different tolerance for taint.
An American already starts sweating bullets when they have BTC from prostitution or from mining them but not declared taxes. They could swap them to XMR which is saver and world make it easier to come up with a story of questions are asked.

Literally the same BTC nobody would give a fuck about South America, Eastern Europe, Africa or Asia.

[Anonymous No.26290816]

>>26287474
>>26287939
normies are realizing BTC isn't private and everything can be tracked on the ledger.

[Anonymous No.26290842]

>>26266488
Is there an equivalent to xmr.to for US? They've seem to block US transactions now. I could vpn I assume as well.

[Anonymous No.26291010]

>>26288861
Is it actually worth it considering the money paid for electricity

[Anonymous No.26291097]

>>26291010
>considering the money paid for electricity
when the electricity is free, yes
in my case, electricity is included in our lease

[Anonymous No.26291180]

>>26291097
But not worth it if you had to pay for it?

[Anonymous No.26291208]

the amount of dumping monero gets when its trying to price rally is disgusting, who the fuck is doing this?

[Anonymous No.26291237]

>>26291180
maybe, maybe not
if you have low cost power, yes
if you have high cost power no
ymmv

[Anonymous No.26291276]

>>26290842
localmonero

[anonymous No.26291410]

bump for monero

[Anonymous No.26292322]

[Anonymous No.26292474]

>>26291208
Well, it's not me selling for sure. Quite the opposite.

Maybe we need to frame the right to own Monero the same as the right to own guns.

George Orwell wrote: "That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

So very similar, the strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and transact in anonymous money is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

[Anonymous No.26292755]

>>26289602
Thanks, watching now.
>>26291410
Just read that old post. Wow, to think he posted that almost 7 years ago. Who wouldn't trade 2021 for 2013? Horrific.

[Anonymous No.26293376]

>>26289247
Not always.

Seems like XMR started a bearish trend unfortunately. Back to 130 we go.

[Anonymous No.26293406]

>>26293376
Been hitting 160 to much. Huge resistance there. And around 200 aswell.

[Anonymous No.26293448]

>>26291208
what does it matter? people selling for other currencies perhaps? In the end monero's privacy is it's value, people will wise up to how important private transactions are

[Anonymous No.26293743]

>>26291208
Please, I need XMR to drop to $1

[Anonymous No.26294626]

>>26292474

A big part of it also is once block rewards get reduced at tail emission in May 2022 that reduces miner selling pressure by 80%

I dont believe in the inflation bug nonsense i know the supply can be audited.

I just think we are all super early. XMR to me is destined to become a future trillion dollar asset.

Wealthy people who are smart will understand that crypto is inevitable as a much better store of value than offshore asset fiat which is being devalued into oblivion.

There first stop is BTC but once they realie its a surveillance coin Monero with atomic swaps is the next stop.

I think once they start storing value in Monero instead of BTC the price will absolutely explode as they trully get the fact that Monero is a better store of value because its fungible, is better at being digital gold than BTC, can be used as cash, and also more scarce with supply until 2040.

No one gives a fuck if BTC is capped at 21 million none of us are going to be able in 2140 anyway.

Just hang in there...when I saw a youtube video of Winklevoss brothers shilling BTC as the rarest asset on earth I just laughed. Being smart is seeing ahead of the curve and its clear to any of us in crypto the way the world is headed that Monero is the future and possible global reserve asset for all offshore wealth and the entire shadow economy. Insane.

[Anonymous No.26294715]

Market has decided that Monero is a shit coin?

Charts from the last few months comparative to other alts is horrendous viewing.

Would be a minor miracle to claw it's way back to 0.01 at this stage.

[Anonymous No.26294891]

>>26266488
Look at those wasted digits. Monero is a government honeypot, use 0xMonero.

[Anonymous No.26294990]

>>26294891
nope. 0xmonero is still vaporware bullshit
just like the last hundred times you spammed it
stop trying to steal from people by lying to them about the capabilities of the project
https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoMoonShots/comments/i27fhk/0xmonero_summary_of_findings/
>>/biz/thread/S24750658#p24755504

[Anonymous No.26295019]

>>26266488
Every one of you needs to be hosting a Monero node on your computer. According to MoneroHash there are only 1,674 people worldwide hosting a Monero node.

[Anonymous No.26295059]

>>26293406
Yea I guessed that was the problem. No fucking clue why there is a huge resistance at 160. Seems like an arbitrary number.

200 is just ate standard "muh round number" resistance.

[Anonymous No.26295064]

>>26295019
We need to strengthen the network before atomic swaps get here and take XMR to the moon.

[Anonymous No.26295073]

>>26295019
The payouts are shit. I have a 3950 and 2080 Super and you get next to nothing.

[Anonymous No.26295096]

>>26295019
Nobody will care. People will consider if price crashes but XMR has been doing reeeeaaalllyy bad in the price department lately. If anything nodes will likely decrease as the price falls.

Maybe Whitehouse will figure something out.

[Anonymous No.26295198]

>>26295073
I'm not talking about mining, but just running a node.

[Anonymous No.26295228]

>>26289568

[Anonymous No.26295255]

>>26289568
I acquire Monero on Kucoin

[Anonymous No.26295380]

>>26295019
i want to run a dedicated SBC (like a raspberry or smth), but I want to be economical both in terms of initial cost and electric cost. Also want the performance to be sufficient for as long as possible. I know even a Pi3B can be a node, but with increased trafic maybe not for long.

[Anonymous No.26295388]

>>26295198
I’m not running that shit for free you jew

[Anonymous No.26295523]

>>26295019
I'll give it a shot this weekend if it's not too difficult, are there any guides for linux users?

[Anonymous No.26295529]

comfy

[Anonymous No.26295645]

>>26295523
Try this https://freedomnode.com/blog/how-to-install-and-set-up-full-monero-node-on-linux/

[Anonymous No.26295659]

>>26295019
What are the benefits of running a full node? Does my node participate in broadcasting transactions to the network? Sorry if it's a noob question.

[Anonymous No.26295693]

>>26266488
Whats the deal with monero not moving with BTC? Is it an issue with calculating its value because you cant assume the price because no public blockchain? Are exchanges being manipulated?
I cant figure out why this is a 140-160 stable coin?

[Anonymous No.26295783]

>>26295693
Maybe has to do with how Tether fucks with the markets.

[Anonymous No.26295795]

>>26295380
It doesn't cost much CPU and RAM to have a Monero node running in the background. Only when you start mining do the costs increase.

[Anonymous No.26295844]

>>26295795
For various reasons I can't use my main computer, I'd rather pay a small amount to have a dedicated 24/7 computer running only a node.

[Anonymous No.26295865]

>>26295693
>I cant figure out why this is a 140-160 stable coin?
Monero is the only cryptocurrency that is actively being used as a currency.
>Is it an issue with calculating its value because you cant assume the price because no public blockchain?
As long as the PoW algorithm is intact then the supply rate is secure.

[Anonymous No.26295923]

>>26295844
I don't use my main computer for that. I use my old PC to host 5 different cryptocurrency nodes.

[Anonymous No.26295976]

>>26294990
bot

[Anonymous No.26296212]

>>26295923
Electricity is expensive here, so even if the PC only consumes 25W (including power supply losses) that'd be 65€/year. Most old desktop PCs take mor like 50W in idle, so 130€/year.

Having a small 3-5W SBC becomes very quickly ecomonic. Plus they can be passivly cooled without fan noise.

[Anonymous No.26296265]

i got ripped by buying minero at 290 on kraken a few years back... how can i trust it would ever go back to 200? even litecoin is doing better....but i still cant get rid of it...

[Anonymous No.26296272]

>>26295976
wrong again

[Anonymous No.26296564]

My youngest son has some BTC and XMR. I've helped him out the past few years. I have his wallet seed and keep an eye on things. I noticed a month ago that there had been some withdraws. I was a little concerned and he was embarrassed to tell me he sent a bunch to Binance and bought Cardano. I asked why and he said "The Monero you got me doesn't do anything. I can't wait around forever Dad". Well the past few weeks Cardano is up over 100%. The Monero I've I constantly talked about for years has done F all. Yes, theres this argument or that but WTF? Little shit!

[Anonymous No.26296734]

>>26296564
Monero is like a long-long term hold. It's better to be in other cryptocurrencies for quick gains. Keep an eye on the progress of atomic swaps for XMR-BTC. That will be bullish for Monero because it will become a de facto privacy layer on top of Bitcoin.

[Anonymous No.26296921]

>>26296564
Kids these days. Too smart for their own good. Ha!

[Anonymous No.26297034]

>>26296564
Kek
Your son gambles, before u Know it he's buying calls on WSB with your 401k

[Anonymous No.26297577]

when moon sirs

[Anonymous No.26297646]

Monero is approaching shit coin region according to the market

[Anonymous No.26297668]

>>26289165
zion don getting all his retarded followers b& from social media os the best thing that xould have happened to xmr. donnie and hillary are cousins from the royal bloodline btw, they're all in this together

[Anonymous No.26297702]

>>26297646
Seems so, I have like 50 XMR in a cold wallet. I am just letting it ride and not adding any more to my stack and focusing on other coins

[Anonymous No.26297707]

>>26296564
guess the one thing your son should learn from all this is "not your keys..."

[Anonymous No.26297818]

>>26295198
>>26295523
the gui wallet that runs from appimage has a setting to use as a full node (70ish gb requirement) which allows you to solo mine if you're feeling lucky. otherwise try xmr-stak

[Anonymous No.26297858]

>>26297818
I'd spend more in electricity than get in monero from mining, my computer is mid-tier from 2017. I just want to support the network and I'm already running a couple p2p things off of my machine anyway so it's always online.

[Anonymous No.26297913]

>>26297858
i'm writting electricity off as a business expense so it's fine in my case

[Anonymous No.26297964]

Today would be a good day to proof the decoupling.

[Anonymous No.26297979]

>>26276865
*puts hand up*

[Anonymous No.26298033]

>>26297577

[Anonymous No.26298061]

>>26297964
There is no decoupling. This craps somewhat less when btc craps and rises much less when BTC rises

[Anonymous No.26298115]

I thought it was xmr that would decouple, not rbc

[Anonymous No.26298417]

>>26297577
Not until atomic swaps are added, which will be awhile.

[Anonymous No.26298545]

same shit was said about Bulletproofs "it will moon then"

They didn't do shit and atomic swaps won't do shit. This coin hasn't mooned in forever.

The ratio has done nothing but go down the entire year it is practically a shit coin in terms of price.

[Anonymous No.26298710]

>>26298545
Yes sirs, better imvest in rubic, truly a good coin

[Anonymous No.26298711]

Tfw i warned all you retards to not buy before the massive correction. Also xmr will be chained to btc forever because thats where its utilities lie.

For anyone thats still clueless, the success of monero relies btc to stay relevant on crypto exchanges, and the success of atomic swaps. Monero is the ultimate money laundering machine in a cashless future. Druggies deal in monero and atomicly swap into btc and proceed to cashout into fiat using a crypto exchange. Or potentially atomic swapping for a cbdc fiat (might not be possible)

[Anonymous No.26298788]

Hey im gonna invest on coins i ve decided Monero is the most reasonable since bros also use it

I may buy like 5k worth of Monero

I m thinking buying from Binance.com

any suggestions on easier buying options ?

[Anonymous No.26298853]

>>26298788
Binance is good, buy using USDT instead of BTC

[Anonymous No.26298954]

>>26298788
morphtoken

[Anonymous No.26299214]

test

[Anonymous No.26299481]

>>26266488
Losing so much money on this :(