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/biz/ - Business & Finance


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24823228 No.24823228 [Reply] [Original]

>be independent tech contractor with 7 years of experience
>get hired by companies to build and fix shit when they do not have the resources to do it themselves
>charge a decent rate but zero strings attached and they can terminate me whenever they want if they are not happy with almost zero notice
>every client I've had has positive reviews

Fast-forward to clownworld late-stage 2020:

>looking for new contracts for 2021
>get in touch with a company offering an interesting problem
>have to do technical interview brainteaser BS with company, pass with flying colours
>thought I had this in the bag
>have to do some retarded behavioural interview, cringe at the thought
>get asked questions about past experience, thought it went well

>failed and no offer because didn't use enough buzzwords about scrum and agile and interviewer gave close to zero feedback

This shit is so incredibly ridiculous that it drives me insane. I can understand they want to be careful if they are hiring someone who is going to join them for the long-haul, but I'm not a fucking employee and if they think I'm inexperienced or if I'm an asshole just fucking fire me instead of wasting my time with pointless interviews.

Anyone else know this feel?

>> No.24823254

>>24823228
All of corporate America is going NWOW/Agile. Stay at a smaller firm, it'll make your keys

>t. Kms

>> No.24823287

>>24823254
I don't mind agile and I think doing iterative development is important, but what I do not understand is why these companies filter for people who just memorise all the fucking ceremonies and the details of the process instead of knowing how to do the actual work or simply how to efficiently work with other people regardless of process.

What pisses me off is how dehumanising it all is, like you're a cog in the machine, and this is something I thought I would get away from by being an independent contractor but alas.

>> No.24823314

you don't sound like you're a contractor, you just sound like a wagie who accepts bad terms
why did you do a shitty interview if ur a contractor?

>> No.24823355
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24823355

>>24823314
This.
You need to bend the knee to globohomodiversity mamas.

>> No.24823356

>>24823314
You have a point but the market is pretty dead right now and I need the money, last year was a very different story. Normally I would refuse these terms but god knows what 2021 has in store for us.

>> No.24823385

>>24823228
How else would the recruiting industry make their millions?

>> No.24823392

>>24823356
you vill eat ze bugs.

>> No.24823435

>>24823392
and like it

>> No.24823487

>>24823228
>>24823254
>>24823287
The funny thing about agile is that it led to a lot of really good practices. Version control, continuous integration, TDD, iterative development, and DevOps weren't invented by agile, but they became widely adopted thanks to agile.
All these practices came about because the original agile manifesto was trying to give the middle finger to management and went ahead with it.
Modern Agile™ is middle management trying to get in on it, not realising that bypassing them was the reason it started in the first place.

>> No.24823520

>>24823487
Modern agile/NWOW is the only thing that exists in corporate America and middle management is making it worse by being more involved than they were before.

>> No.24823523

>>24823385
It's not just recruiters, they are also pissed off about this because actually good candidates they submit to companies are getting rejected because of this retarded mechanical interviewing process that selects for people who memorise shit and not for decent people.

The fucked up part is that in my industry (tech) there is a legit shortage of good senior developers, yet companies pull shit like this and wonder why they can't hire anyone. Can someone explain this logic to me?

>> No.24823533

>>24823228
>failed and no offer because didn't use enough buzzwords about scrum and agile and interviewer gave close to zero feedback
How do you know that's why you failed then?

>> No.24823566

>>24823520
I'm based in the EU and not America, but nonetheless the same phenomenon can be observed here. It's also worse here because software engineers are considered low-status plebs by managers so the problem just gets amplified.

>> No.24823567

>>24823314
This. Anon, you're a free agent. Don't do dehumanizing interviews. You let them waste your time on stupid bullshit, don't ever do that again.

>> No.24823586

>>24823533
I've done interviews. A buzzword quota is literally part of the assessment.

>> No.24823595

Seems like you werent hot enough for stacey? Do you do financials? The company I work for hires a shitton of contractors through a consultant.

>t product owner

>> No.24823606

>>24823533
Because the feedback was literally "didn't demonstrate enough understanding of Agile™ processes" despite the fact that I have literally led teams that have delivered large business-critical projects far ahead of schedule precisely because I ensured said teams didn't focus too much on the tedium of process.

>> No.24823630

>>24823595
I am specialised in fintech yes, what rates are you paying and is it tech-oriented?

Also, the interviewer was unironically a woman, surprise surprise.

>> No.24823646

>>24823228
>be me
>work in tech
>study at home as a n33t for years
>work for a few years and gain experience in small jobs here and there
>finally I can step into the real world
>spend 99% of my time cleaning up after companies that hired super cheap indian devs who half built the project before running off with the money
>the feels man
>atleast the money is ok and as long as a pajeet exists to fuck things up I will never be out of work

>> No.24823650

>>24823228
Hiring managers and HR in general are nothing but a drag on the success of a company. they are all just box-ticking drones who actually know nothing about the business they work in other than HR bullshit. they literally just stand in the way of the fluid movement of talent into roles. i make a point of only hiring autodidact applicants, with only 1 exception in 14yrs - self taught people walk the walk in my biz, college is expensive daycare.....

>> No.24823702

>>24823630
>Also, the interviewer was unironically a woman, surprise surprise.
Well I hope you learned your lesson and won't make the mistake of working with a woman ever again.

>> No.24823707

>>24823650
Tell me about it, what's worse is when you have managers of engineering teams that have swallowed all of the HR BS.

I'm also an autodidact and my respect for university-"""educated""" people is shrinking by the day.

>> No.24823752

>>24823650
HR doesn't care about autodidacts.
You're self motivated unlike all the others who need to be managed?
Fuck off.

t. unemployed autodidact

>> No.24823806

>>24823702
Any stories? I have a feeling somewhere that working with women is a fatal mistake but I don't have enough personal experience other than from what I have observed in certain companies.

>> No.24823846

>>24823806
I'm interested in hearing about this too. From my experience women in tech are a giant wreaking ball of cost, time and careers but my experience is limited.

>> No.24823924

>>24823752
This is why /biz/'s "just read books and put stuff on GitHub, bruh" approach is idiotic. You need a degree, preferably a Master's. Anyone telling you that you can advance in this industry with only a portfolio and a CodeCamp certification of achievement is parroting back the 21st century version of the "go to their office and give them a firm handshake" Boomer advice.
I'm lucky enough to already have the advanced degrees that the Karens in HR like. My brother had to do an online degree to advance in his IT career at his company. Everyone there already knew him and knew he could do the job. He was immediately promoted when he got the degree. It was that one stupid fucking piece of paper that was holding him back.

>> No.24823969

>>24823924
I have always thought I was the exception as my annual revenue is roughly $200k a year, but as you say I think there is no chance for me to advance into senior management without a degree.

Regardless, I'd rather neck myself than compromise my principles to please some kike/roaste executive headhunter or management board, so maybe the way forward is to start my own product company/startup.

>> No.24824085
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24824085

>>24823969
incredibly based anon. I can just tell you are going to fucking make it. $200k you pretty much already have made it.
I think I'll be stuck around $70k ish forever. Well my xrp stack is fat so maybe that might do something someday....

>> No.24824113

>>24823969
Out of curiosity, when did you get into the industry?

>> No.24824124

>>24823630
We don’t hire anyone directly we have a vendor that brings folks on in Poland, no clue what they pay

>> No.24824173

>>24823806
>>24823846
I'm not in tech, I'm in the military. But women are shit workers/leaders everywhere so the story would be boring. Also I don't want to give too much information about who I am.

Basically, women are all incompetent until proven otherwise. I'm actually quitting the military because I can't stand working for another fucking female.

>> No.24824202

>>24824113
I don't want to dox myself here but I'm 23, was a turboautist in my teens and got lucky with my choice of languages and tech stacks. Been working professionally since like I was 18.

>> No.24824243

>>24823228
I gave up this year anon. I still have a job, but I've given up looking for a new/better one..... my focus now is building something for myself. it doesn't seem to matter anymore how competent you are or how well the interview goes.....HR will still pass you over for minority and women candidate every time. this industry has completely gone to shit.

>> No.24824359

>>24824085
>if only you knew how bad things really were.

Money isn't everything anon and $70k is still a lot, be happy that you have food on the table and a roof over your head, anything more is just fluff designed to entrap you in a glided jail of hedonism. I just want to earn more money so I won't get wiped out by inflation in the next few years.

>> No.24824377

>>24823228
I fucking hate all kinds of devs operations chads rise the fuck up

>> No.24824407

>>24824173
This is why one of my other brothers (not the IT one, no I'm not larping, I have a lot of brothers) quit a certain member of FAGMAN. A bunch of unqualified women were promoted ahead of him to get their diversity points up, and he was paralyzed by their power struggles with each other, to the point that they were giving him completely contradictory orders to fuck over the other female managers.
His (super based) wife told him to quit when they got promoted, he held on for longer. Think she, being a women, knew how they'd act better than he did.

>> No.24824489

>>24824377
I hate devs too anon. I'm pretty good at what I do but I seriously cannot stand the meme childish culture that developers embrace (video games, table-tennis in the office and free soft drinks) and more importantly the fact that they refuse to take care of themselves or their appearance.

I seriously do not understand why these people can't present a polished appearance in professional settings or just not be autistic with other people. Ironically my polished appearance has worked against me as I have once received indirect feedback from an interview that they do not trust developers who wear suits.

Name one other industry that cares about petty shit like this, I cannot.

>> No.24824552

>>24824489
Moreover most devs are so far up their own ass that they think their meme hobby is always superior to business problems. Seriously, most of them are like fucking children jumping between one shiny thing to the next. Just look at the explosion of JS frameworks and the constant battles of system architecture at startups.

>> No.24824558

>>24824489
I work for a US broker-dealer and have been told I seem too serious about the job after interviews on more than one occasion. Retarded HR shit is everywhere. If you don't seem like you'll comply you won't get the job.

>> No.24824572

>>24824489
They are all manchildren who bicker which language is better and how le Linux is better for everything when a proper dev who is worth is pulling his weight uses atleast 2-3 languages a day and never even thinks about arguing about pointless shit like that on /r/ programming
Kinda glad devs like that are being replaced with actual monkeys from india

>> No.24824649

git gud faggots. That's what you Rajeshes get when your hire-ability is based on your tongue and not actual skills.

> .t SWE @ FAG 250k TC

>> No.24824693

>>24824489
Go back and read the history of computing. The attitude that you describe has been the prevailing norm since the 60's. You're the interloper, not us.
I do agree that paint shedding is a serious problem, though, and I don't really give a shit what language/framework I'm using at any given time. Shit, I've been doing a lot of my programming in Fortran lately.

>> No.24824729

>>24824649
I hate this fucking industry and most of all I hate the engineers at FAGMAN who by a large extent hold the record for how far up their asses their head is, no offence.

Joining this meme industry was a fucking mistake and if I could do it all over again I'd learn some practical skill or just become a lawyer, an investment banker, or a loyal state servant because this is what clownworld rewards.

>> No.24824756

>>24824407
Promoting people who are unqualified is always a bad sign, but at least when it's nepotism there's something of an excuse and the idiot can usually be trained how to stay out of the way and quietly collect his paycheck. But with women? No. They believe the bullshit that they know what they're doing and fuck everything up. Your sister in law is smart, tell her a random military officer from your favorite mongolian throat singing email list wishes her a merry christmas.

The FAGMAN companies are really skating on thin ice with their retarded management practices. They're not even going to be like Microsoft after they got smacked down, they're going to be like fucking yahoo if they don't pull their heads out of their asses. I'd definitely be looking to work for their competitors if I was in that industry (and maybe I will be soon, probably going to be a contractor when I get out).

>> No.24824758

>>24824693
>Go back and read the history of computing. The attitude that you describe has been the prevailing norm since the 60's. You're the interloper, not us.

This is not true. My father was a FORTRAN programmer in the 1960's and I can assure you things were very, very different back then. Once upon a time we even had private offices, imagine that.

>> No.24824766

too many mid iq ppl are devs help save me

>> No.24824827

>>24824729

The fact that you're even considering boomer tier careers like law means you were never meant to make it in tech, no offence, I respect people who understand what they're good at and try to push these areas instead of trying to bulldoze their way into programming "cuz they pay good"

>> No.24824873

>>24824377
> operations
lmao this is a joke right? Network admins, SysAdmins, DBAs, etc are all glorified tech support. I could maybe understand if you were doing "DevOps"-y shit (although that buzzword sucks) where you're programmatically managing tens of thousands of cloud instances like Netflix or Amazon, but if all you're doing is maintaining Active Directories, or RDP servers, or performing patches on servers that haven't been meaningfully upgraded since the 2000s, you're just as bad as the India code monkeys are are practically useless.

>> No.24824902

>>24824827
Fuck you, this is exactly the kind of attitude that is destroying tech and allowing manchildren like yourself to flourish. I've been programming since I was a kid and I'm not too far off from your salary, but I'm not going to delude myself and make this fucking career the centrepoint of my life like some of the fagmen at the FAGMAN's. Some of us are actually well-rounded yet can still produce quality code and can remain passionate about it.

>> No.24824983

>>24824902

Hey if you're good you're good, you can be roided up guido but if you pass the hiring bar we'll take you. More than 200k in non FAG/NFLX is means you're good.

>> No.24824989

>>24824902
dont argue with the cuck, go lift instead

>> No.24825016

>>24824902
>Some of us are actually well-rounded yet can still produce quality code and can remain passionate about it.
Bro you shouldn't be applying for codemonkey or autismdev positions, you should be working at startups communicating what the autist founder built to VCs and banks and lawyers.

>> No.24825031

>>24824489
>embrace (video games, table-tennis in the office and free soft drinks) and more importantly the fact that they refuse to take care of themselves or their appearance.
Agree with everything except the video games part. For me at least, the video games part came first and just the fact that I'd spend most of my time on a PC in my teen years exposed me to 'dev' stuff one way or another (whether through randomly meeting people in MMOs/forums, looking for hacks like every kid does, or stumbling on some kind of development update from your fav online game)

>> No.24825041

>>24824989

Lift my cock into your mouth princess

>> No.24825066

KEK, how it can be? Don’t lose and be retard
take part it right now
>https://medium.com/@BaseProtocol/this-week-in-base-protocol-12-07-5257c7436372

I have already made x5 just for a week!!!!

>> No.24825074

>>24824202
Someone trying to switch into tech industry. What tech stacks and languages would you suggest?

>> No.24825090

>>24825016
I've looked into this but it doesn't pay as well unfortunately. Feels like the only path that I can go now is to just build my own company.

>>24825031
I agree, video games introduced me to programming as well, but I think most normal well-rounded people grow out of it and stop making it their primary hobby once they reach adulthood. Let's not delude ourselves and think it is anything but a form of escapism.

>> No.24825100

>>24823520
>>24823487
PMCs have to justify their continued existence.
So glad I'm working with a team to automate like 70% of what a "middle" manager does.

>> No.24825173

>>24825074
Look into something niche and up-and-coming. Python and JS and all of these meme languages that bootcamps teach is incredibly oversaturated especially at the junior levels. Start browsing Hacker News and feel the pulse on the sector and eventually you'll be able to identify which areas are going to be big in the future.

If I were you I'd look into Rust.

>> No.24825177

>>24824766
Get into infosec
It's mostly compliance
>>24824873
Those monkey tier jobs have been automated for years now, they don't exist anymore in a professional setting

>> No.24825204

>>24825090
> but I think most normal well-rounded people grow out of it and stop making it their primary hobby once they reach adulthood.
Even worse, most video games have been utter shit for the last 10 years. Anybody excited for the newest COD or Mario game shouldn't be allowed near a computer, let alone given a dev position.

>I've looked into this but it doesn't pay as well unfortunately. Feels like the only path that I can go now is to just build my own company.
Getting paid at startups is tough, yeah, but that's what I was saying, get paid to build someone else's company. Sure, you can make your own company but then you're in competition with all of India. Another option is to go to investment firms and do evaluations of the technical side of startups.

Good luck man.

>> No.24825233

>>24825173
Solidity.

>> No.24825263

>>24825173
He could go the other way and learn COBOL, very underserved market. Even better if he learns COBOL and also one of the hip new languages and works porting COBOL programs to modern languages, that's going to be a huge constellation of projects in the next few decades.

>> No.24825297

>>24825177

im buds with the security ppl at my job that aren't security by checklist idiots. idk i feel like i can make more as dev / infra. the compliance security jobs bum me out fuck ISO

>> No.24825309

>>24825204
>Getting paid at startups is tough, yeah, but that's what I was saying, get paid to build someone else's company. Sure, you can make your own company but then you're in competition with all of India. Another option is to go to investment firms and do evaluations of the technical side of startups.

Doing technical due diligence at VCs is something that has crossed my mind, I'll look into it thanks.

As for competing with India, you have a point but that is only if you are going to do regular outsourcing. I plan on building some kind of product, possibly related to crypto. That is a bit more difficult for Indians to compete with seeing as they have zero sense for design or UX.

>> No.24825335

>>24823646
I'm doing this right now. Currently reengineering our tech toolset for a low voltage company and building a SPA in React that replaces an old and busted SQL db to allow our techs to do 90% of what our in house secretaries do (which is literally just paper pushing). Time cards, scheduling, all the dumb shit.
Any advice? I'm thinking of applying to my first real software dev job once it's stable for a month. My title is currently just "head of IT" which is meaningless in any company with less than 50 employees.

>> No.24825351

>>24825335
First rule of this business is never refer to yourself as an IT specialist. Consider yourself an engineer or software engineer. IT is for pajeets and while this may sound meaningless hiring managers care.

>> No.24825355

>>24825297
Landing a very well paying Dev job is hard as it's an oversaturated market, landing a well paying infosec job is pretty attainable if you got the certs and there is a huge demand for it bear that in mind
Getting a good job in infosec nowadays is alot more realistic I would say but I am biased

>> No.24825364

>>24825335

your experience rn is more valuable than working at a big company if you are working from requirements up to port it over and theres no pm micromanagement. idk im sure it pays bad tho

>> No.24825401

>>24825355

what certs? pls dont say CEH

>> No.24825429

>>24825335
>applying to my first real software dev job

your job is paying you money to make software, you are already a real software professional

>> No.24825452

>>24825355
I keep hearing about these fucking infosec jobs and certs on /g/ but I've never in my life actually met an infosec professional in the course of my career.

Where are these jobs and who are these people?

>> No.24825484

>>24825364
Strong agree with this, >>24825335 you're already doing real software engineering and you are delivering more business value than what at least 60% of devs do at larger companies. Cherish it.

>> No.24825498

>>24825173
>>24825233
>>24825263
Well, those are very different. Lets say within 6months-1year. Which one has the highest chance to give me employment? What about 5 years?

>> No.24825529

>>24825401
For entry level ones hr loves comptia, nothing beats it
Sec+, network+, pentest + if you are into that , cysa+ any of these will get you good goy points with HR
As for intermediate ones I think getting a vendor specific ngfw cert is better, Palo alto, checkpoint, juniper whatever
Then once you got experience you go for the big boy certs like cisa and the likes, depending on what route you want to take, most of these require 5 years of experience to even enroll

>> No.24825538

hijo de puta!

>> No.24825556

>>24824243
I’ve about given up too, I’m going to be stuck at this fucking job forever even though I’m more experienced than the entire pool of candidates.

>> No.24825557

>>24825452
Most infosec professionals are glorified network/sysadmins who focus on security, some are independent contractor who do pentesting, some are basically compliance guys who understands IT basically back office

>> No.24825558

>>24825429
I'm not. My main work is customer-facing break-fix for in-the-field equipment. I got hired because I was able to do 4x as much work without going on site and rolling a truck than the guy before me. I also am building the app 100% in my spare time so I can show source code to potential employers if need be. My bosses have already said I can develop it on the clock, but I'm worried about IP stickiness because I'm the only guy here who can code, let alone sysadmin. Maybe I shouldn't be so worried and my logic is flawed, but w/e
>>24825364
Appreciate the encouragement. Pay is awful. I'm hourly at less than $20. Very few benefits. It's a skelly crew operation.
>>24825351
Ty. I feel a sense of imposter syndrome because I lack institutional creds, but I will keep this in mind.

>> No.24825575

>>24824359
i live in the Netherlands and make 40k which is well above average.

i dont think euro's are worth that much more compared to dollars.

>> No.24825659

>>24825575
Unfortunately EU managers consider software devs to be subhumans and you will never earn the money you want to earn here unless you start your own business or get into contracting.

>> No.24825693
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24825693

>>24825452
>but I've never in my life actually met an infosec professional in the course of my career.
I work with them in the government. It's a completely mindless job, all they do is get emails about new vulnerabilities and get told to update their scanning software with new data and run scans. The hardest thing they do is manage an inventory of everything plugged into the network (ie, finding random printers in back offices).

>>24825498
If you're reasonably intelligent you should be able to learn COBOL in 6-12 months no problem. Then you basically have job security for life because most COBOL programmers are old as fuck and just babysit decades old systems that are too costly to port to modern languages. So you'll either become the new babysitter or you'll work to port them to modern languages.

Do a search for COBOL jobs. It's pretty in demand and it's not a fluff job where they'll only take minorities, there's simply not enough people available to do the work so I think they'll be more lenient if you have the wrong skin color, genitals, sexual orientation, gender identity, or lack a degree.

>> No.24825694

new info engineering grad, wondering what sort of stuff i can learn while applying for jobs..
im proficient at python and numpy/tensorflow for MLE, and i know stats very well. is there a point in just learning rust or solidity for an extra edge? i can really see the smart contract space popping of in the next 5 years and with all the hours spent on biz i probably know more about the space than most in the market

>> No.24825761

>>24825558
>I also am building the app 100% in my spare time so I can show source code to potential employers if need be. My bosses have already said I can develop it on the clock, but I'm worried about IP stickiness because I'm the only guy here who can code, let alone sysadmin. Maybe I shouldn't be so worried and my logic is flawed, but w/e
TALK TO A LAWYER ASAP. You absolutely should be worried about IP. In fact stop doing all work until you talk to a lawyer and figure out if you own your work or not.

>> No.24825765

>>24825693
>all they do is get emails about new vulnerabilities and get told to update their scanning software with new data and run scans. The hardest thing they do is manage an inventory of everything plugged into the network (ie, finding random printers in back offices).
This is also accurate this is what I do on most days, rarely we need to do quantitative/qualitive analysis or any pentesting (as whitebox pentesting is not that useful according to my boss)

>> No.24825880

>>24825765
Infosec is similar to HR in that the purpose isn't to secure computer systems (like HR isn't about hiring good talent). Infosec is about showing compliance to "industry best practices" to limit liability for hacks when they do occur. Basically, the company needs documentation to show that they took reasonable precautions before being hacked so that the company can't be sued for the damages from loss of data.

If something actually needs to be secure (ie, no hacks) you airgap that data/system/network entirely. There's no other way to be sure. If data actually cannot be lost no matter what, you set up an automated backup system that matches your data requirements (ie, nightly to local backup, weekly to cloud, monthly to offline tape storage), and you do regular test restores to verify everything works.

>> No.24825886

>>24825761
Fair enough. I'm not looking to sell my work as a separate product, but I do want something to show for it for portfolio reasons. I have never developed while at the office. I'll find the time to talk with someone. Thank you.

>> No.24825970

>>24825880
Ye pretty much but it's fun cuz I get to deny roasties asking for access to Instagram on the work network

>> No.24825991

>>24825364
Also fyi I am building up from requirements. One of the biggest hurdles right now is I'm trying to keep the timecard system compatible with our legacy paper system while things are being tested. There is a separate API in place that can be switched on that allows the time card system to expose itself to other systems down the line when further automation work is done (or automating payroll)

>> No.24826459

>>24825991

what you are doing is leading a project / being "lead developer" imo after you do this if you sell it right youre more experienced than other devs

>> No.24826503 [DELETED] 

>>24823228
Yea desu I would rather stagnate at my job than keep going to engineering interviews. It’s just cringe.

>> No.24826523

>>24823228
How can I make it bros? I think I'm gonna be a manager soon.

>> No.24826557

>>24823228
>Jump through the burning hoops goy!

>> No.24826706

>>24823523
Because if they reject enough people then they can use the h1b to send your work to pajeet who will do it for pennies.

>> No.24827296

>>24826706
Are you saying the solution is to become a pajeet?

>> No.24827424

>>24827296
Fuck no, you want to get skills that can't be outsourced or work as a consultant to unfuck what the pajeets fuck up.

>> No.24828726

>>24823228
You are thinking about this all wrong OP. You are trying to sell yourself on a technical and skill basis.

The permanent employers maintain their positions through entrenched sinecures and bureaucracy. Hence the behavioural interview us not about finding out whether you will get along and are a good person to work with, the goal is to suss out whether you will reinforce the tribe by copying its formalism and rituals.

Making it in corporate is more about understanding human nature then it is about technical prowess. Unless you have some skill that literally no one has and is absolutely essential, like being a rocket engineer during the cold war. You have learn to toe the party line so the speak.