/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.24611793]

>Americans

LMAO

[Anonymous No.24611864]

>>24611793
Burgers must have great healthcare if their covid testing costs over $300. My cheapass government didn't charge me anything.

[Anonymous No.24611886]

>>24611793
Burgers really fucked up when it comes to healthcare.

[Anonymous No.24611895]

lmao at the ridiculous price but lmao even more at the attempt by the hospital to dodge liability for the work of doctors by framing them as contractors or some shit. the US is so fucked.

[Anonymous No.24611905]

>>24611793
If Biden actually becomes president I'm fleeing the country. The only reason to live in the USA is to have the pleasure of shooting guns. All countries are better by every metric.

[Anonymous No.24611922]

This is the land of the free. Nobody forces you to pay. You can easily choose to die. God damn europoors.

[Anonymous No.24611923]

>>24611905
Good luck faggot, you'll have to move to a third world shit hold if you actually plan on fleeing. You're not going to be able to immigrate into a country like Canada or Sweden

[Anonymous No.24611933]

>>24611905
What if Biden makes improvements to make the US more like a first world country with affordable healthcare?

[Anonymous No.24611954]

>>24611905
Gun rights were better preserved under 8 years of Obama than 4 years of Trump.

[Anonymous No.24611960]

>>24611793
>Richest country on earth. LMAO

[Anonymous No.24611971]

>>24611905
Jesus you are retarded

[Anonymous No.24611978]

>>24611905
depressing but accurate

[Anonymous No.24611981]

>>24611793
Why do US hospitals charge so much?
3.6k for "recovery time"?

[Anonymous No.24611988]

>>24611922
How's your debt doing?
t. "Yuropoor" house owner with Ph. D., never had any student debt, never had any mortgage to pay. 0 debt for lifetime, free healtcare via my wife.

[Anonymous No.24611993]

Median healthcare expenditure in the U.S. is bad, but all other countries have their costs much more hidden. Still 2x as expensive as other comparable countries

[Anonymous No.24612003]

>>24611933
The problem is obviously hospitals overcharging.
Adding socialized healthcare into the mix only makes things worse.

[Anonymous No.24612027]

>>24611988
>Euro house owner
>never had any mortgage to pay

You realize this isn't normal at all, right?

[Anonymous No.24612048]

>>24611864
It would be fine if the test was fucking accurate, the amount of false positives it gives is well known

[Anonymous No.24612055]

>>24611988

Why are you bragging about being a welfare baby? All those things somebody else had to pay for you.

[Anonymous No.24612082]

371 to take a covid test I get paid $100 to take a covid test

[Anonymous No.24612083]

>>24612055
>dude if your tax dollars are spent on you rather than israel you're a socialist

[Anonymous No.24612087]

>>24611923
I lived in Sweden for 11 years and it is a SJW shithole. Sure life is comfortable and easy but everyone acts the same, everyone's apartment looks the same, everyone's fucking kids look and act the same (well, except for arab and black immigrants)... I'm finally getting the fuck out of here in the summer thank fucking god

I mean, America fucking sucks but at least the people are outgoing and have their own personality.

But yeah the healthcare sucks lmao

[Anonymous No.24612093]

>>24612003
>Adding socialized healthcare into the mix only makes things worse.
You burgers always say this but then why do countries with socialised healthcare have cheaper drugs and better patient outcomes per dollar spent?

[Anonymous No.24612102]

>>24612082
Siege was literally written by an alphabet soup asset and is used to entrap right wing men with terrorism and pedophilia.

[Anonymous No.24612109]

>>24612093
>better patient outcomes
This is a meme, declining life expectancies here are mostly from drug od's and homicide

[Anonymous No.24612137]

>>24611922
you can choose to be poor you mean, because it's equivalent

[Anonymous No.24612153]

>>24612093
You are at point A (the american healthcare as it is now). You want to get to point B (socialized healthcare AND much more reasonable prices).
What path can be taken between A and B that does not pass through concentration camps & guillotines for either CEOs or niggers?
For bonus points, explain how your answer accounts for lobbying, corporate welfare, the current anti-citizen political system the US has, big government's inevitable overreach and cronyism.

[Anonymous No.24612267]

>>24612093
Making US healthcare reasonably priced necessitates destroying the US health insurance industry. That's not something that's politically possible, so our choices are expensive healthcare, or expensive healthcare, high taxes, and draconian restrictions on every facet of human life to try to control the cost to the government of healthcare.

[Anonymous No.24612284]

>>24611793
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WHY IS THIS SUCH A FUCKING SHIT HOLE

[Anonymous No.24612293]

>>24612093
Socialized healthcare only means the state guarantees hospital bills, which in turn means higher hospital bills and tons more unnecessary procedures.
Which helps to explain "better patient outcomes", since a ton of procedures aren't even needed so the patient was never in any real danger.

And socialized healthcare systems aren't inherently cheaper, the costs are simply hidden.
For instance: I pay over 1k Euros in "social benefits" every single month.
Over my career, that's well over 150k Euros I've paid that I could've saved myself.

[Anonymous No.24612294]

>>24612083

They're not YOUR tax dollars idiot. Somebody else paid for all that. You really think its fair that guy gets all of those things without any contribution of his own?

[Anonymous No.24612305]

>can't afford to live if you get sick
Pretty based country you got here.

[Anonymous No.24612380]

>>24611905
This is the truth.
Owning and shooting a wide variety of guns is the only thing I miss about America after becoming an expat.

[Anonymous No.24612407]

>>24611905
You're the exact kind of hypocritical Cletus I hate.
>gun ownership sanctioned by constitution to fight tyranny
>modern Americans own guns but only use them to shoot cans in their trailer park parking lot
>not a single American ever rose up and used his guns as intended by the framers in the past 100 years even after Eisenhower told you the federal government was being coopted and JFK was killed by the CIA
You don't deserve to own guns.
You deserve to be killed by a drone.

[Anonymous No.24612412]

Affordable healthcare is communism. Deal with it.

[Anonymous No.24612415]

nobody actually pays their medical bills though. We waste all of our money and state of the art healthcare on fat fucks who never pay anything back

[Anonymous No.24612433]

>>24611905
You are a fucking retard, there are many yurop countries with better gun laws than the us, you faggots are only too much in love with your shithole to realise it. I can legally buy and own fully automatic assault rifles in my homecountry for instance.

[Anonymous No.24612462]

>>24612412
but only poor people who dont pay taxes are the ones who get free healthcare wtf.

[Anonymous No.24612488]

>>24612293 Over my career, that's well over 150k Euros I've paid that I could've saved myself.

too bad you get clogged artery from mcdonalds diet midway through your career and need to pay 300k for surgery, stands, and you lose your job.

[Anonymous No.24612498]

>>24612488
Over my career so far, anon.
I'm only a little over 10 years in.

[Anonymous No.24612594]

>>24612153
>>24612267
Yes, I agree with all this but this is just evidence of how the US is cucked to corporatism, not an argument against socialised healthcare per se.
>>24612293
>Socialized healthcare only means the state guarantees hospital bills, which in turn means higher hospital bills and tons more unnecessary procedures.
Lol, literally the exact opposite of this happens. Government healthcare systems get drugs for a fraction of the price that US hospitals pay for them, this is well documented fact. And the only major downside of universal healthcare is that expensive treatments are more likely to be rationed rather than given out liberally like they are if you have insurance in the US. It's telling that you think €1000 euros a month is a lot for healthcare, that's cheap by burger standards.

[Anonymous No.24612608]

>>24611954
how

[Anonymous No.24612614]

>>24612594
>Government healthcare systems get drugs for a fraction of the price that US hospitals pay for them
Source?

>€1,000 per month is cheap by US health insurance standards
You're talking out of your ass.

[Anonymous No.24612631]

>>24612608
Probably from blowing his legislative load on ACA and then losing Congress in the midterms. Presidents can probably only get one big thing done before blowback neuters them, so just hope Biden's big thing isn't gun control.

[Anonymous No.24612692]

>>24612614
>Source
Look it up, I'm not spoonfeeding you basic publicly available information.
>You're talking out of your ass.
I'm not and actually have experience with this, which you clearly don't. Insurance starts out relatively cheap and as you age and accumulate more health issues you end up paying increasingly ridiculous amounts.

[Anonymous No.24612741]

>>24612692
>Look it up, I'm not spoonfeeding you basic publicly available information.
Here's a study that finds that prescription drugs are more "expensive" in the US because lots of people lack insurance: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/sites/default/files/documents/___media_files_publications_issue_brief_2017_oct_sarnak_paying_for_rx_ib_v2.pdf
"U.S. consumers face particularly high out-of-pocket costs, both because the U.S. has a large uninsured population and because cost-sharing requirements for those with coverage are more burdensome than in other countries."

>In 2020, the average national cost for health insurance is $456 for an individual
https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/resources/individual-and-family/how-much-does-individual-health-insurance-cost

[Anonymous No.24612759]

>>24612594
>>24612614
private healthcare in europe costs a few 100's a month (definitely less than 350-400€).
Your numbers don't make sense.

[Anonymous No.24612772]

>>24612759
>private healthcare in europe costs a few 100's a month
I know, I pay that.

ON TOP OF the government-mandated "contributions" I make to nationalized social security, which is 1k Euros every month.

[Anonymous No.24612870]

>>24612267
>destroying the US health insurance industry
Basically this, health insurance is fucking stupid. It's barely insurance, aka a hedge against actually getting sick and needing expensive treatments. They treat all types of health care instead of just shit like cancer and heart attacks et cetera.

[Anonymous No.24612872]

>>24612614
>Source
https://www.drugwatch.com/featured/us-drug-prices-higher-vs-world/

Dude, you're retarded if you honestly dispute the fact that drug companies charge more in the US than they do in other markets.

[Anonymous No.24612890]

>>24612872
See >>24612741
Here's a study that finds that prescription drugs are more "expensive" in the US because lots of people lack insurance: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/sites/default/files/documents/___media_files_publications_issue_brief_2017_oct_sarnak_paying_for_rx_ib_v2.pdf
"U.S. consumers face particularly high out-of-pocket costs, both because the U.S. has a large uninsured population and because cost-sharing requirements for those with coverage are more burdensome than in other countries."

[Anonymous No.24612901]

>>24611905
Are there any expats here that can recommend anywhere for white cis male Americans to go to?

[Anonymous No.24612919]

>>24612890
aka 'commiewealth' site
Nice try Comrade Schlomo

[Anonymous No.24612936]

>>24612741
>>In 2020, the average national cost for health insurance is $456 for an individual
You don't understand how healthcare works in the us. That's just your premium, you have out of pocket costs on top of that that can add 20-40%. That $465 a month is what you pay when you're healthy and not requiring any healthcare, as soon as you start having conditions the costs spiral, as I explained earlier. Also you have to pay for your kids insurance which multiples your premium into the thousands, whilst you won't pay any additional tax in europe for your kids healthcare.

[Anonymous No.24612968]

>>24612890
Read my link first and you'll realise thats only one of multiple reasons, not the only one. Like I said, your retarded of you don't realise drug companies can and do charge more for the same medications in the US market

[Anonymous No.24612981]

>>24612936
Protip: I have socialized healthcare costing me 1k a month, plus private insurance, and I still have to pay out of pocket as well.

>>24612968
>not the only one
The study finds that's the main cause.

[Anonymous No.24612985]

>>24611922
>This is the land of the free.
>Nobody forces you to pay.
>You can easily choose to die.

[Anonymous No.24613016]

>>24611886
And elections.
So much tech and they use paper

[Anonymous No.24613028]

>>24611793
“THANK YOU”

[Anonymous No.24613040]

>>24611793
>Gets angry at capitalism, praises more power to government, when the enemy is corruption

[Anonymous No.24613093]

>>24612981
>The study finds that's the main cause.
No it doesn't, you're just cherry picking excerpts to try to prop up your argument. Even though you're still conceding that drugs cost more in the US regardless. Did you skip over this:
>One reason U.S. prescription drug prices are higher may Be the relative lack of price control strategies. Unlike the U.S., many other countries employ centralized price negotiations, national formularies, and comparative and cost-effectiveness research for determining price ceilings.14 In the U.S., health care deliveries
are fragmented, with numerous, separate negotiations between drug manufacturers and payers and complex
arrangements for various federal and state health programs.15 And, in general, the U.S. allows wider latitude for monopoly pricing of brand-name drugs than other countries are willing to accept.

[Anonymous No.24613113]

>>24613093
>No it doesn't
"U.S. consumers face particularly high out-of-pocket costs, both because the U.S. has a large uninsured population and because cost-sharing requirements for those with coverage are more burdensome than in other countries."

Literal quote.

[Anonymous No.24613184]

>>24613040
You faggots realise that health insurance is available to burgers?

[Anonymous No.24613237]

>>24613113
So you're ignoring the rest of the reasons in the article and in various other sources based on that one quote? You realise how retarded you sound?

[Anonymous No.24613249]

>>24613184
Futher: europoors aren't even paying much less for their inferior health system

[Anonymous No.24613254]

>>24613237
>So you're ignoring the rest of the reasons in the article
No, I clearly said I'm just stating the MAIN reason according to the study.

[Anonymous No.24613271]

>>24611793
topkek
the "thank you" at the end

[Anonymous No.24613318]

>>24613254
So are you disagreeing with my original statement or not? I said drug companies charge US hospitals more for the same drugs than they charge to other markets. That has nothing to do with end user cost which is what your quote pertains to. Do you accept this finally or not?

[Anonymous No.24613340]

>>24613318
>So are you disagreeing with my original statement or not?

me: "the main reason according to the study is lack of health insurance"
you: "wrong"
me: "but that's literally what the study says"
you: "so are you disagreeing with me or not"

Good talk, anon.

[Anonymous No.24613367]

there's only one blackpill you need re: "muh european promised land"
online, where there's no barrier of entry, yuropoors come into burger spaces to shill yurope
burgers never ever come into european spaces to shill america
this right here is the balance of power
you can ignore it or make excuses for it. i'm a frog myself and there's always a temptation to think of reasons making france "better". but objectively, the US is better. the US attracts highly qualified europeans and bleeds average americans. europe's smarter minds emigrate and only the dumb or the already wealthy come here
when i see an "european" anon shilling "europe" on /biz/, which is a strange proposition in itself because europe is made of distinct countries and widely different cultures, i'd never define myself as european before frenchman but moving on... if you're rational, seeing EU shills doesn't give you the vibe EU is better. it's just the same as the moroccans down the neighborhood shilling their desert shithole and their backwards culture as superior to france, while they're content to live here and scream outrage at a mere suggestion they go back to their country
it's all cope and ego

[Anonymous No.24613377]

>>24611923
Swedistan worst of scandinavian countries to emigrate to

[Anonymous No.24613387]

>>24611981
Because it's just charged out to insurance companies. None of these prices are ever from individual payer bills.

[Anonymous No.24613391]

>>24613340
No, anon. Go back through to start of this exchange. I said US hospitals pay more for drugs than countries that have universal healthcare. You disputed this using the study you're talking about, which pertains to end user pricing. Stop trying to weasle your way out because you're wrong and admit it.

[Anonymous No.24613412]

>>24613249
I pay around 100$ a month and dont have to worry about killing myself after receiving hospital bill, kinda worth it ngl

[Anonymous No.24613425]

>>24613391
>I said US hospitals pay more for drugs than countries that have universal healthcare.

The study I posted shows that end users pay more for drugs mainly because of the health insurance situation.

[Anonymous No.24613434]

>>24612594
>US is cucked to corporatism
Yes.
Fixing this problem would pretty much automatically fix healthcare, don't you agree? Genuine competition would reduce the prices, same way it does for every consumer product or service not heavily regulated to keep small players out of the field while subsidizing big fat corporations.
You're just barking up the wrong tree, I believe.
>not an argument against socialised healthcare
Socialized healthcare can work (in a high-IQ homogenous and armed society), but implementing it in current day USA would most likely make things worse rather than better.

[Anonymous No.24613444]

>>24613425
Right and what has that got to do with the fact that US hospitals pay more for drugs than other healthcare systems?

[Anonymous No.24613457]

>>24613444
Whether that's true or not, it would not be the primary reason why US prescription drug buyers pay more out of pocket.

[Anonymous No.24613507]

>>24612901
Australia/NZ

[Anonymous No.24613516]

>>24612901
Don't come here

[Anonymous No.24613529]

>>24613457
Irrelevant. Plus it's still a contributing factor. Thanks for finally admitting I'm right.

[Anonymous No.24613560]

>>24613529
you: "drugs in the us are more expensive because hospitals pay more for them than socialized countries"

me: "this study shows the main reason is due to the US health insurance situation"

you: "nuh-uh"

me: "it's a literal quote"

you: "ok I concede but it's irrelevant so thanks for conceding"

Take your meds.

[Anonymous No.24613566]

>>24613507
>Chink FOB filled with hapa manlets

[Anonymous No.24613596]

only poor burgers actually pay for this

rich burgers have health insurance.

[Anonymous No.24613611]

>>24613560
>"drugs in the us are more expensive because hospitals pay more for them than socialized countries"
Literally never said this, you schizo. I brought up the fact that drugs are cheaper outside the US because the anon I was responding to said the opposite. Stop being an intellectually dishonest faggot.

[Anonymous No.24613621]

>>24611988

Welfare queen pride yaaaasssss

[Anonymous No.24613630]

>>24613412
>I pay around 100$ a month and dont have to worry about killing myself after receiving hospital bill, kinda worth it ngl

yah, so what? so do burgers. and they actually get better quality health care.

[Anonymous No.24613635]

>>24613611
>Literally never said this, you schizo

So when you said "Government healthcare systems get drugs for a fraction of the price that US hospitals pay for them", you weren't implying this was the main reason drugs are more expensive for end users in the US?

[Anonymous No.24613646]

>>24613560
To recap, you said this:
>Socialized healthcare only means the state guarantees hospital bills, which in turn means higher hospital bills and tons more unnecessary procedures.
We've established that the opposite is true and socialised healthcare is more economically efficient due to economies of scale and price leveraging, e.g. cheaper drugs.

[Anonymous No.24613653]

>>24613596
It's even worse actually, lazy non-working burgers (niggers) get medicaid while low income burgers are fucked.

[Anonymous No.24613660]

>>24613635
No I wasn't, my point was refuting your BS about socialised healthcare costs being greater than in the US when the exact opposite is the case.

[Anonymous No.24613667]

>>24613646
>We've established that the opposite is true
haha what?

>more economically efficient due to economies of scale and price leveraging
But you just told me you never said "drugs in the us are more expensive because hospitals pay more for them than socialized countries".

Lay off the meds, anon.

[Anonymous No.24613681]

>>24613660
>No I wasn't
But you just said this again: >>24613646
"socialised healthcare is more economically efficient due to economies of scale and price leveraging"

[Anonymous No.24613682]

>>24612594

Man shut the fuck up you don't know anything. Loads of us in Europe see the failings of socialist healthcare every day. In countries like germany and the netherlands it's a THIRD of our government spending. And we have the highest taxes on the planet.

What you want is slavery, just be honest.

[Anonymous No.24613701]

>>24613646
>We've established that the opposite is true and socialised healthcare is more economically efficient due to economies of scale and price leveraging, e.g. cheaper drugs.

tell us more about the economies of scale, mr. armchair economist

[Anonymous No.24613730]

>>24612936

EVERYTHING is highly taxed in northern europe. There is literally nothing with money you can do that doesn't have high taxes. Don't fucking tell me about direct taxes when 80% of incomes are bled to feed and clothe niggers while providing them with "free" healthcare.

[Anonymous No.24613744]

>>24613682
He wants to increase the tax burden to such a degree that everyone gets the same shitty level of healthcare with most being too poor to afford private insurance, which is the case in most European countries where doctors that take publicly insured patients are hopelessly overloaded and the quality of care is next to zero. But due to the tax burden few can afford private insurance which is necessary, as in a lot of cases public insurance doesn't even cover basic shit like skin cancer screening or EKG screening.

[Anonymous No.24613758]

>>24613630
Literally any McDonalds toilet in Europe has better hygiene than US hospitals.

[Anonymous No.24613795]

>>24613667
>>24613681
I refuse to believe your actually this stupid. Socialist healthcare is more economically efficient and hospitals under it pay less for drugs, that's verifiable fact. The other contributing factors to what the end user pays for drugs is beside the point. You're being deliberately obtuse and intellectually dishonest because you don't have a valid argument.

[Anonymous No.24613814]

>>24613744

We literally have an underclass of people larping as doctors who determine whether you are even going to get examined by a real doctor. The specialist then gets 5 minutes to determine whether you are really sick or not. Still, healthcare is so expensive further rationing is needed just to keep it afloat.

[Anonymous No.24613820]

>>24613758
How would you even know? Judging from your insurance bill you shouldn't even be able to afford McDonalds, poorfag.

[Anonymous No.24613835]

>>24613795
You said drugs in the US are more expensive because nationalized healthcare has better price leverage.
I posted a study showing that the main cause drugs are more expensive in the US, is because many individuals simply don't have coverage.
It's not a difficult point to understand, but somehow you're twisting yourself in knots over it.

Oh, and our healthcare system (that I pay 1k into every month) has been going bankrupt for decades, constantly needing bailouts during every singlegovernment budgeting round.

[Anonymous No.24613840]

>>24613795
>Socialist healthcare is more economically efficient and hospitals under it pay less for drugs, that's verifiable fact.

so efficient.

[Anonymous No.24613855]

>>24613682
I'm expat US in UK and you haven't got a fucking clue how the two systems compare. You've just bought into the healthcare lobby propaganda.
>>24613701
So have you. Wow a sensationalist tabloid article showing people had to wait longer for routine treatment (i.e. non life threatening). Zoom out, retard. Also nothing to do with the economic argument. If you actually read my posts you'd already know I said the downsides of universal healthcare are things like rationing, my argument is on the cost.

[Anonymous No.24613857]

>>24613814
Yes, I know I'm yuropoor as well, my father had to wait months for his MRI scan. If he had a private insurance he would have gotten the scan the same day probably.

[Anonymous No.24613907]

>>24613835
>You said drugs in the US are more expensive because nationalized healthcare has better price leverage.
I posted a study showing that the main cause drugs are more expensive in the US, is because many individuals simply don't have coverage.
Are you honestly autistic enough to not realise these statements aren't contradictory. You're also repeatedly rephrasing my statement to make it sound like I'm saying that hospitals paying more for drugs is the only on r primary reason that the end user pays more, when I'm not discussing the end user costs at all. I'm talking about cost efficiency of the two systems, and yes once again the socialist system pays less. Of course you know this but are being deliberately obtuse because you don't have an be actual argument.

[Anonymous No.24613931]

>>24613840
> Guy's operation keeps getting delayed
>This is somehow evidence of cost inefficiency
Wtf is wrong with you, anon?

[Anonymous No.24613940]

US healthcare is known to be one of the worst of 1st world countries

[Anonymous No.24613948]

>>24613855
>Wow a sensationalist tabloid article showing people had to wait longer for routine treatmen
pic related
>Also nothing to do with the economic argument.
retard alarm
>my argument is on the cost.
do you fucking moron understand that mis-pricing of services / goods leads to scarcity and drops of quality? here's the economic argument for you: socialised health care is a cluster fuck and can not be saved because like all centrally planned systems it has no working pricing system. that's why there are waiting lines and shitty outcomes.

[Anonymous No.24614003]

>>24613931
>>This is somehow evidence of cost inefficiency
seriously: are you dumb or don't you just know how economic inefficiency looks like? Waiting lines are a sign of insufficient supply for the given amount of demand, meaning: the system is inefficient.

[Anonymous No.24614011]

>>24613948
Longer wait times are not indicative of economic inefficiency. I don't know what to tell you because it simply doesn't work like that. Efficiency is based on cost vs outcomes. The US system is less efficient.

[Anonymous No.24614025]

>>24611905
Stay in your shit hole country you disgusting fat cunt

[Anonymous No.24614039]

>>24614003
for instance look at this example of very efficient food distribution in venezuela. what a paragon of prosperty and efficiency.

[Anonymous No.24614044]

>>24614003
Lower supply to demand ratio isn't related to cost efficiency. You're sandwiching in the word efficiency to a separate topic it doesn't apply to.

[Anonymous No.24614086]

>>24614039
Again you don't understand what the word efficient means. You seem to think "efficient" means "good" or "ample".

If you have a shortage of food then the most efficient method of distribution is to give everyone an appropriate amount to survive without wastage. Which would probably result in something like that image. I can guarantee that the food in venuzeula is being used more efficiently than food in the US. You won't understand what I mean by that though and think "more food = more efficient"

[Anonymous No.24614093]

>>24614011
>Efficiency is based on cost vs outcomes
and you somehow believe time isn't a cost and isn't detrimental to outcomes?

[Anonymous No.24614143]

>>24614093
>and you somehow believe time isn't a cost and isn't detrimental to outcomes?
No, it absolutely is, and that's why routine procedures are more likely to be delayed in a universal healthcare system than an urgent one. In a universal system your wait time is likely to depend mostly on the severity of your condition whilst in a privatised one it's dependant on how much money you pay, with the wait times being infinity if you don't have any means to pay.

[Anonymous No.24614171]

>>24611793
This bill gets handled by your insurance and they negotiate down the price. Similar to how when your car is in an accident, the shop charges a huge bill then your insurer trys to chop it down but you only pay the deductible.
Are non-Americans really this dumb? Probably.

[Anonymous No.24614210]

switzerland is considered one of the most capitalistic country on earth. education is "free" here (paid via tax) and everybody must have health insurance. Americans are so brainwashed by lobbies they scream communism for any social policies that should be implemented. reminder that capitalism without social policies can't work.

[Anonymous No.24614241]

>>24614171
>and they negotiate down the price
so you're saying it works like a 3rd-world bazaar?
-40k bill my friend, good service
-no no no too expensive Ahmed, 20k.
-ah no no no maybe 35k good deal because you're a friend

[Anonymous No.24614409]

>>24614086
>If you have a shortage of food then the most efficient method of distribution is to give everyone an appropriate amount to survive without wastage
do you understand that the shortage of food is already a knock-on effect of the given pricing-inefficiencies in venezuela that started with the nationalisation of foreign supermarkets and the subsequent replacement with state sponsored stores that sold food below production costs (and thereby driving native chains out of the market) and then some other shit about farm nationalisations and oil .. yada yada ... the waiting line is a symptom of economic inefficiency. where ever there are waiting lines the market is inefficient.

> I can guarantee that the food in venuzeula is being used more efficiently than food in the US.
i bet that's why pic related happened

>You won't understand what I mean by that though and think "more food = more efficient"

more food = more efficient. look you're trying to argue from the position that economic efficiency is the elimination of waste in the distribution of a given good to the most valuable uses in an economy, but you're failing to see that a) elimination of waste means the price is high enough to disincentivize abuse of the good by those who don't need it (meaning they won't buy because too expensive for bs and b) distribution to the most valuable uses means that proportional to usecase the good is distributed to those who need it (that means: those who need it, can afford it).
the logical result of a and b means there is no waiting line because SUPPLY MEETS DEMAND.

[Anonymous No.24614438]

>>24611895
that's true, I mean the "doctors are not employees of the hospital" part

[Anonymous No.24614461]

>>24614241
>institutions negotiating
>3rd world bazaar
Not even close.
Just like when you get handled your bill from Joe's Auto Body and it says $9,542 to replace your hood, bumper, headlamp, 60 man hours, plus materials cost and disposal it's not actually that much
I'm sure it's the same processs in whatever place you live except it's done between the state and the hospital unless the hospitals are also state run?
It basically works out the same. The difference is that in the US if you don't have insurance you are SOL if you have cancer or something but if you're too poor for private insurance you usually have a state provided one subsidized through taxpayers so there's not really an excuse. You also don't have to wait absurd amounts of time to get treatment like I hear you do in europe.
Go share a border with Mexico and have a billion 3rd world shitskins right below you and tell me how much of a good idea it is to have "free" healthcare for everyone who steps foot in the country. There is no such fucking thing as free it is tax payer funded and I am already paying like 30% in taxes and I'm in my fucking 30s with 2 other roommates. I've also been to the hospital zero fucking times. But every fucking spic with state healthcare goes to the doctor every time they get a runny nose. Fuck this country man, I hope we get nuked.

[Anonymous No.24614494]

>>24614241
seeing as the only thing you can imagine when it comes to an insurance company dealing with a hospital is two third worlders in a market arguing, i think you're projecting a litle there, ahmed

[Anonymous No.24614525]

ITT: Americans defending their retarded 4th world healthcare policies

Seriously, no other country is this retarded when it comes to paying for healthcare.

[Anonymous No.24614590]

>>24611793
Wait so you get paid 41k for going to the hospital? Pretty based.

[Anonymous No.24614654]

It pays to be poor in amrickia
Food stamps
Free housing
Free health care
Welfare checks
And soon UBI for those poor enough
Keep your faggot wage jobs
If you make less than 30K just quit and be a nigger

[Anonymous No.24614704]

>>24614654
You’re right. I used to make 50k but now because of carona I am cut to part time only making 400 a week after taxes. I still can’t apply for food stamps because I have TOO MUCH MONEY SAVED IN MY FUCKING BANK ACCOUNT. If I just withdrew all my money and stored it in a mattress or crypto I probably could qualify for all the gibs

[Anonymous No.24614713]

>>24613907
>Are you honestly autistic enough to not realise these statements aren't contradictory.
They are contradictory.

You said the main reason was leverage.
That study shows it is not, but rather the individual health insurance situation.

[Anonymous No.24614754]

>>24613016
>>24611886
elections, media, tech, finance, healthcare.
can you guys just start again?

[Anonymous No.24615001]

>>24614713
>You said the main reason was leverage.
No I didn't, I'm using it as an example of the efficiencies of state run healthcare vs privatised. This is like the fourth time I've told you this. Stop being dishonest.

[Anonymous No.24615068]

>>24615001
>No I didn't
You literally said "Government healthcare systems get drugs for a fraction of the price that US hospitals pay for them" in reply to a claim that socialized healthcare "means higher hospital bills".

No amount of backpedaling will save you.

[Anonymous No.24615095]

>>24611864
>Burgers must have great healthcare if their covid testing costs over $300. My
You'd think that, wouldn't you? But we get pretty bad bang for buck here.

[Anonymous No.24615121]

>>24611933
>What if Biden makes improvements to make the US more like a first world country with affordable healthcare?
I'm all for taxpayers coving a big portion of the charge but something needs to regulate costs. If we keep private medicine then we need laws to enforce price shopping instead of these surprise bills.

[Anonymous No.24615171]

OP literally taken from reddit's front page. This is absolute proof this place is dead, it's all pajeet shills and normies.

[Anonymous No.24615185]

>>24611905
wtf are you talking about,
i was on range just last week
t. a finn

[Anonymous No.24615229]

>>24611886
yeah, but their taxes are like 20 percent at the most.

[Anonymous No.24615272]

>>24615171
Just need flags then you can already ignore the post before reading it.

[Anonymous No.24615392]

>>24612093

It’s a matter of incentives.

Private healthcare systems are incentivized to maximize revenue extraction, so there will be more money spent and more invented “services” rendered. This is where the $590 IV drip and $300 fee for administering it comes in.

Public healthcare systems are incentivized to minimize expenditure, so there will be less spent per patient... they’ll just stick a $4 saline drip in your arm and go on with life.

These plebbit horror stories make it seem like everybody in the US experiences this. The reality is that with private insurance you pay up to your deductible and nothing more. If you don’t have insurance, that’s on you.

[Anonymous No.24615643]

>>24615068
>You literally said "Government healthcare systems get drugs for a fraction of the price that US hospitals pay for them"
Which is verifiably correct.
>in reply to a claim that socialized healthcare "means higher hospital bills".
And? Do you think cheaper drugs creates higher hospital bills? Because that's what you're implying now. The fact that not only are the drugs more expensive for hospitals to buy but they them have to tack on more to account for the cost of those getting them without insurance just refutes your point about universal healthcare creating higher bills even further. Why don't you just come clean and admit you've fucked up here and don't have an argument? Because so far you've:

>Tried to assert socialised healthcare creates bigger hospital bills
>Conceded drugs are cheaper for socialised healthcare systems to buy
>Added that drugs are made even more expensive in private healthcare systems to account for those without insurance

Do you see the contradiction here?

[Anonymous No.24615657]

>>24615643
>Which is verifiably correct.
But not the main reason, right?

[Anonymous No.24615678]

>>24611864
the sad thing is that the US govt. spends more taxpayer money on healthcare percentage wise than any other country on earth

[Anonymous No.24615701]

I'm going to be 29 soon and am quitting my job. First time ever getting insurance on the open market. Its only going to be for a year or so. How much should I be expecting to pay for standard coverage?Should I opt for only getting catastrophic coverage?

[Anonymous No.24615813]

>>24615657
I don't know, but I never claimed it was, nor does it matter. I'd imagine there are numerous factors involved far beyond the single sentence in the short pdf you linked that you seem to think is the definitive authority on the subject. Even the pdf you linked listed numerous factors that you don't seem to acknowledge.

Now, care to explain your inconsistent reasoning as to why you believe that socialised medicine results in higher hospital fees when you acknowledge that drugs are more expensive in the US and then charged even higher due to no-insurance patients? Or are you going to try and ignore that point again beer you've run out of distractions?

[Anonymous No.24615851]

>>24615813
>but I never claimed it was
lel but leverage was the point you brought up to show that socialized healthcare was cheaper.
It would be very bizarre if you weren't implying that "leverage" was the main reason.

I showed you a study saying the main reason was the individual health insurance situation, but you literally said "no it doesn't".

[Anonymous No.24615883]

>>24615701
Are you healthy and take care of yourself or are fat, sick, diabetic, and about to have a stroke cuz you think government will take care of you? Of the latter, kys. You can get catastrophic (10k deductible) for 50/mth. Thanks to trump.

[Anonymous No.24615887]

>>24612087
>no diversity
everyone acts the same
>diversity
everyone acts the same except the diverse ones who don't
>I mean, America fucking sucks but at least the people are outgoing and have their own personality.
kek burgers are the biggest npcs in the world.

[Anonymous No.24615943]

>>24613249
B-b-but my burgerland healthcare meme! Reeeeeee!!!

[Anonymous No.24615953]

>>24615851
No, you don't seem to understand the word "example". Cheaper drugs are an example of the efficiencies of socialised healthcare vs the US system. Now what you've mentioned is another example. Now I've answered your questions multiple times, perhaps you'd like to finally answer the ones I've asked you that you keep dodging.

See: >>24615813

>Now, care to explain your inconsistent reasoning as to why you believe that socialised medicine results in higher hospital fees when you acknowledge that drugs are more expensive in the US and then charged even higher due to no-insurance patients? Or are you going to try and ignore that point again beer you've run out of distractions?

[Anonymous No.24615954]

>>24615229
In Germany we pay roughly 45% but at least we arent bankrupted by medical emergencies and we dont have to drink and eat literal poison.
There are flaws here but the US literally seems like a shithole to any european, trust me.

[Anonymous No.24615979]

>>24615953
>No, you don't seem to understand the word "example".
That's just you backpedaling.

I showed you a study indicating that the main reason for the expensive drugs in the US lies with the individual health insurance situation, not "national leverage vs hospital leverage".
You tried to deny this.

[ShiriruBesuto No.24616006]

The occupation of private detectives is becoming more popular nowadays. That’s why after the prosperous pre-sale the GTX price can grow x10!

[Anonymous No.24616038]

>>24611922
>Brainlet tier mutt

[Anonymous No.24616062]

>>24615979
I knew you would dodge the question again. Once again, please tell me your justification for why you think socialised healthcare has higher costs than the US system when you've acknowledged that drugs are more expensive in the US and then made even more expensive to the patient due to the insurance system. Stop being a dishonest coward finally.

[Anonymous No.24616091]

>>24616062
Anon, just admit you messed up.

You brought up "muh leverage" as the reason why drugs are more expensive in the US, but my study shows the main reason is the individual health insurance situation.

[Anonymous No.24616092]

>>24613820
>decent healthcare must be expensive

Is that what they teach you in Americano schools boyo?

[Anonymous No.24616142]

>>24616091
Absolute fucking coward, pathetic anon. You fucked up and your only defense is a single line from a single study that you're misquoting and even then it only damages your case and strengthens mine further.

[Anonymous No.24616148]

>>24616092
I'm from germany, moron

[Anonymous No.24616160]

>>24611933
as long as jews run the government and hospitals, healthcare will never be "affordable"

[Anonymous No.24616171]

>>24616142
Just admit you were wrong you absolute sperg lmao.

[Anonymous No.24616238]

>>24611864
spoiler alert. Its not great - not relative to how much more we get charged.

[Anonymous No.24616277]

>>24616171
As I've explained multiple times the only things you're claiming I've days wrong are things I never said and you're desperately trying to claim I inferred. Meanwhile give point blank refused to be answer my whole question every single time now. Basically this exchange has been.

>Retard-anon: socialised healthcare results in higher costs!
>Me: no anon, it's the opposite. For instance, drugs are much cheaper in stuff systems due to leverage
>Retard-anon: hey look at this pdf I found that has a sentence saying the drugs cost more in US because of uninsured patients! That means you're wrong!
>Me: that doesn't refute my point, and in fact re-enforces it
>Retard-anon: lalalala not listening!

[Anonymous No.24616296]

>>24616148
Then why the fuck would you even talk about US healthcare if you know shit about it.

[Anonymous No.24616298]

>>24616277
You:
>drugs in the US are expensive because nationalized healthcare has more leverage on price

Reality:
>drugs in the US are expensive primarily due to the individual health insurance situation

Time 2 cope

[Anonymous No.24616353]

>>24611793
Is this a patient bill or insurance being billed?

[Anonymous No.24616378]

>>24611922
> I have the freedom to die
By that measure, Somalia and Syria sound like countries with even more freedoms, and you even get to shoot muh guns at actual people without needing it to be "self-defense". Moving to syria would be the perfect move for you trumpcucks

[Anonymous No.24616379]

>>24612901
stay in your shithole country please. every time a white man enters a foreign country, they ruin it.

[Anonymous No.24616393]

>>24616296
don't you think you're being a little hypocritical asking that question?

[Anonymous No.24616398]

>>24616298
Lol, you're not even direct quoting me bit even then give fucked up because both that statements are true. Stop squirming on the head on a pin, you faggot and answer the question. How do you reconcile claiming that socialised healthcare has higher costs when you're openly staying the opposite?

>Inb4 lalala not answering! Copecope!

[Anonymous No.24616419]

>>24616398
>both that statements are true
Only one can be the main reason.
You denied the fact that the study said the main reason was the individual health insurance situation.

[Anonymous No.24616471]

>>24616419
>lalala not answering! Copecope!
What a surprise.

[Anonymous No.24616499]

>>24615883
I'm thin and pretty healthy i guess. I don't exactly have a healthy lifestyle. I smoke, drink, use a lot of stimulants and don't work out as often as I should, but I haven't had to go to the hospital in years. Take care if my teeth, only had a single cavity in my life over 10 years ago. I dont expect any medical emergencies anytime soon. I'll get my check ups and blood work done before I quit I guess just to be sure.

[Anonymous No.24616554]

>>24616471
>not answering
But I did answer.
The main reason behind the expensive drugs is the individual health insurance situation.
Not "national leverage vs hospital leverage".

[Anonymous No.24616661]

>>24616554
>But I did answer
That's an answer to a question that was never asked. The question is how can you claim that socialised healthcare results in higher costs when the inverse is true?

[Anonymous No.24616755]

>>24616471
>>lalala not answering! Copecope!
>What a surprise.
>>24614409

[Anonymous No.24616761]

>>24616661
>That's an answer to a question that was never asked
You said "US drugs are more expensive because leverage".
I posted a study that contradicts that.

Cope.

[Anonymous No.24616888]

>>24616761
>You said "US drugs are more expensive because leverage"
Which is correct
>I posted a study that contradicts that.
It doesn't contradict that though, it even states it as a contributing factor in addition to the issue you're talking about.

But yet again you're failing to answer the question: how can you claim that socialised healthcare results in higher costs when the inverse is true? But go ahead and keep squirming around on a pedantic detail like a faggot.

[Anonymous No.24616932]

>>24616888
>Which is correct
But not the main reason.
Which is the impression you give when that's the only reason you volunteer.

[Anonymous No.24616960]

>>24616755
I don't actually disagree with any of this really which is why I never responded, but we're talking about different measurements of efficiency. If you think I'm disagreeing with the points you raised or think Venezuela has a good economic model you're misunderstanding me.

[Anonymous No.24617015]

>>24616932
>keeps squirming around on a pedantic detail like a faggot.
What impression you decide to take from it isn't my concern. I already clarified my position hours ago. You just don't want to accept it because it's easier to argue against a strawman than to actually back up your original assertion (which is now in tatters).

[Anonymous No.24617060]

>>24617015
That's the discussion, anon.

Just cope.

[Anonymous No.24617098]

>>24617060
>Maybe if I just keep saying cope
No, anon. The question is how can you claim that socialised healthcare results in higher costs when the inverse is true? Like I've asked you a dozen times and you fail to answer.

[Anonymous No.24617132]

>>24611793

OY VEY
ALL YOUR MONEY ARE BELONG TO US

[Anonymous No.24617133]

>>24617098
You:
>drugs in the US are expensive because nationalized healthcare has more leverage on price

Reality:
>drugs in the US are expensive primarily due to the individual health insurance situation

Just admit you were wrong, anon.

[Anonymous No.24617243]

>>24617133
Once again those statements aren't mutually exclusive and you've wussed out of answering the question again. Absolute tranny.

[Anonymous No.24617258]

>>24617243
>Once again those statements aren't mutually exclusive
You presented leverage as the main reason.
It is not.

[Anonymous No.24617303]

>>24617258
I like that you could dispute that point but you basically concede you're a coward and a tranny by not disputing that parts of my post.

[Anonymous No.24617326]

>>24617303
Imagine getting this angry over sperging out.

[Anonymous No.24617365]

>poorfags die on the streets because they are too poor to afford healthcare
based

[Anonymous No.24617429]

>>24617326
The fact you'll go to such lengths to avoid returning to your original point shows how little confidence you have in your own intellect.

[Anonymous No.24617466]

>>24617429
>returning to your original point
What?

[Anonymous No.24617518]

>>24617365
More like: poorfags get treated for life-threatening issues, never pay and cause costs to rise for everyone else, then go bankrupt and have to go on government assistance, which is again paid for by people who can afford it (taxpayers)

[Anonymous No.24617523]

41k for cough treatment
yep, I'm thinking this is the U.S. of A.

[Anonymous No.24617685]

>>24617466
>Socialized healthcare only means the state guarantees hospital bills, which in turn means higher hospital bills and tons more unnecessary procedures.
You claim that socialised medicine results in higher costs then the US system yet have repeatedly acknowledged the exact opposite.

[Anonymous No.24617764]

>>24611988
Lol welfare nigger

[Anonymous No.24617787]

>>24616960
>I don't actually disagree with any of this really
>but we're talking about different measurements of efficiency
>If you think I'm disagreeing with the points you raised ... you're misunderstanding me.

backpaddling much? You weren't talking about some other measurement of efficiency, you explicitely said:

>Socialist healthcare is more economically efficient ...

economic efficiency is a well defined term in economics. also I don't know whether you realise but if you agree with what I said almost everything you claimed is wrong.

anyway, have a nice day, m8.

[Anonymous No.24617804]

>>24615954
It used to be good, now it's just brazil

[Anonymous No.24617820]

>>24612093
>what is taxes?
What rock did you fucking morons crawl under from

[Anonymous No.24617866]

>>24617685
You think I'm going to discuss the actual merits of my original point from hours ago when you just spent 6 fucking hours spergtastically denying an obvious truth?

[Anonymous No.24617872]

>>24611905

Are you one of those dummies that think biden is gonna send cops to your house and take your guns away? Biden is just a step more left than trump, both are auth-right

[Anonymous No.24617985]

>>24617866
>You think I'm going to discuss the actual merits of my original point from hours ago when I've just spent 6 fucking hours inadvertently arguing the opposite of it because I got hung up on a pedantic detail
Thank you.

[Anonymous No.24617994]

>>24614086
>I can guarantee that the food in venuzeula is being used more efficiently than food in the US
>from Venezuela
>See daily kids and people eating from the trash because they can't afford anything
>Most people can't afford basic stuff due extreme inflation
>commie faggot tells otherwise even though he has never been here

go back nigger.

[Anonymous No.24618017]

>>24617985
>pedantic detail
There's a big difference between leverage and individual health insurance situations, anon.

[Anonymous No.24618046]

>>24611793
I can't believe they get away with charging this much! It's criminal. We should tax everyone heavily and just pay them as much as they want, no questions asked.

[Anonymous No.24618083]

>>24616393
Ive worked in states(AL) for 6 months, my friend broke his arm, worst experience in hospital ever. Next time Id rather shoot him instead of taking him to emergency

[Anonymous No.24618084]

>>24617994
No you dunce, I'm not saying the system is better I'm saying that poorfags in Venezuela are actually eating the food they get, whilst in the USA half the food people buy goes in the garbage, or the excess calories goes into their adipose tissue. I'm using it as an analogy, not praising the system (which is obviously fucked). Sorry you're from a shithole tier country and ESL.

[Anonymous No.24618097]

Burger here, the funny part is that we could have Medicare for all but our working class is too fucking stupid to vote for their own interests.

Like OP's $40k hospital bill, that would bankrupt 99% of working class americans, but they still vote for politicians that support the current system (including biden, he's still a corporate shitlord).

But it's literally only that, it's the stupidity of our working class. They're just too fucking stupid. People die every day just because they're too stupid to vote progressive/socialist.

>but ben shapiro said...
He's a grifter, funded by millionaires

>but steven chowder said...
He's a grifter, funded by millionaires

[Anonymous No.24618154]

>>24618017
It's completely irrelevant in terms of your original point and tube just used it as a distraction to detract from the fact you're wrong. Not only that but just because drugs are expensive because of how insurance works doesn't detract from the fact that the drugs are more expensive for hospitals to buy in the first place. All it does is lend more weight toy argument.

[Anonymous No.24618190]

>>24613507
The most authoritarian countries in the Anglosphere, nice choice genius

[Anonymous No.24618194]

>>24618154
>It's completely irrelevant in terms of your original point
So why did you just spend 6 hours strenuously arguing about it?

[Anonymous No.24618214]

Imagine arguing in favour of the US health system when it literally happens nowhere else on earth. Hilarious scam.

[Anonymous No.24618269]

>>24618097
You couldn't have made a more NPC post without being a literal bot

[Anonymous No.24618281]

>>24618194
I didn't. I've spent 6 hours asking you about your original point while you've droned on about it instead.

[Anonymous No.24618294]

>>24618084
They are eating it because they have nothing left, fucking retard, extremely shitty "analogy" people are throwing food in US because they can and its part of the culture, europeans do it also, because again they can afford it.

[Anonymous No.24618296]

>>24611793
fake lol

[Anonymous No.24618311]

>>24618281
>I've spent 6 hours asking you about your original point
No, you haven't.
You spent it first denying the study, and then denying you denied it.

[Anonymous No.24618495]

>>24618083
And yet despite being such a worldly man it doesn't occur to you that others too might have traveled the world or even worse: have better arguments than stupid anecdotes.

[Anonymous No.24618617]

>>24611988
Congrats on earning half the wage you would in the US while having a 70% tax rate
Oh, and everything is more expensive! enjoy paying 5.5 bucks per pound of beef
t. europoor who isn't delusional

[Anonymous No.24618796]

>>24618294
Why are you arguing with me you retard? I know it's shit. Eating trash is as efficient a use of food as it gets.

[Anonymous No.24618853]

>>24611793
Burgers are really retarded, what a shithole :D

[Anonymous No.24618905]

>>24611905
Based

[Anonymous No.24618993]

If you made it this far... rub, tug & kys this thread is doom.

[Anonymous No.24619016]

>>24611886
I pay a fucking medicaid tax out of every paycheck but don't even have or get to have Healthcare. Fucking retard tier country system. Poor and rich get everything and the middle class foot the bill. Ill write an epic about this someday so future generations can study how the great American empire declined.

[Anonymous No.24619189]

>>24611793
Reddit tier thread
Saged

[Anonymous No.24619242]

>>24611922
tens of thousands of people do, every year

[Anonymous No.24619268]

>>24613387
bullshit! medical debt is a huge problem and people lose their house and everything they own all the time! you are full of shit go fuck your self

[Anonymous No.24619290]

>>24612901
i lived in vietnam for 7 years and am considering returning, it's paradise

[Anonymous No.24619521]

>>24615229
but all the added expenses really add up to like 40% anyway, except if it goes wrong it goes really wrong.

[Anonymous No.24619562]

>>24612294
>dude if we spend our tax dollars on ourselves instead of israel we are literally socialists

[Anonymous No.24620464]

>>24611793
*Americucks

[Anonymous No.24620811]

>>24613387
medical debt is the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in burgerland

[Anonymous No.24620899]

>>24615954
>In Germany we pay roughly 45%
Add Krankenkasse, MwSt., extremely low wages, higher costs of living to the equation and see that you pay far more than the average mutt in the end.
>and we dont have to drink and eat literal poison
lol do you really believe that?

[Anonymous No.24621325]

if you're white and still living in murrica you're fucking retarded

[Anonymous No.24621418]

>>24611905
>the pleasure of shooting guns
But USA is the best country for this...

[Anonymous No.24622202]

>>24615954
How much are you paying for the replacement migration?