GOLD VS BTC AS MONEY

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GOLD VS BTC AS MONEY Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:05:53 2020 No.22838451 [Reply] [Original]

Ok BTC maxis I need your help here. I watched an interview of the founders of the website https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/.. Since the website is about what has happened to the US since the abandonement of the gold standard in 1971, I was sure that these guys were diehard gold bugs. However, in the interview they stated that instead they think that gold failed as money in 1971 (because the standard could simply be abandoned with a stroke of a pen by a corrupt politician) and Bitcoin is the hardest possibly money.

In my view, BTC is a failed project. It was supposed to revolutionize payments as a fast, low cost, trustworthy payment system, which is complete independent of any third parties such as banks or governments. However, the blockchain is slow and simply does not scale and therefore it cannot be used for everyday transactions by a large number of people. The Bitcoin crowd realized this and instead of revolutionizing every day payments it just became a store of value.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:06:14 2020 No.22838460

>>22838451
So, let’s for a sake of argument pretend that gold has 0 real world use cases and is also similarly just a ”store of value”, something outside of the FIAT system that governments cant control. On this ground, gold still has thousands of years of track record as a valuable asset. Independent societies have viewed gold to be something valuable throughout time. I would also argue that it is positive for gold that it exists in the physical form, whereas BTC is simply numbers on a screen. It makes a difference to own an ounce of gold that you can hold in your hand than own some random number of digits in a virtual vallet. I know that BTC is way more scarce than gold if we compare BTC to ounces of gold but you can’t always be analytical since humans often act based on emotion. Currently 1 BTC is about $10.5k and gold is $1850 an ounce. So for 10k USD you could get 5 ounces of gold or you could get less than 1 whole BTC, a number on a screen that has existed for a decade. To me, if I wanted to store wealth it is beyond obvious which I would buy. I would buy gold. The odds that BTC could ever replace gold as money are about the same as predicting a specific date for a world to end. You are basically betting that ”this time it’s different” and somehow this new completely digitally scarce asset is going to take over what humans consider valuable.

In addition, we all know that the big players aka central banks are hoarding gold. For example Russia has been hoarding gold like there is no tomorrow, not BTC.

So what am I missing or have misunderstood, should I sell my yellow rocks to buy some digits because they are the future?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:10:19 2020 No.22838556 DR;NB

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:30:31 2020 No.22839024

>>22838460
Being physical is not an advantage for gold. You have no idea what you’re holding. In the event you actually needed to conceal, transport or safe keep your gold it fails completely when compared to BTC.

BTC is the actual beginning of trust less store of value. A mathematically scarce asset that has already had billions if not hundreds of billions of dollars in marketing pumped into it. Imagine what it would cost in marketing dollars to create the awareness bitcoin has.

Yea btc could fail but it has already encountered extreme hostility when it was weaker and it survived. If you actually read the history of gold you would know that holding gold is not as easy as you think it is. The government has a long track record of gold confiscation. With BTC you can throw out all your electronics Memorize your seed phrase and move to Africa and no one can stop you

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:38:04 2020 No.22839159 >>22838451 Link the Interview you nigger

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:38:06 2020 No.22839160 >>22839024 Have both my dude. BTC is nice, digital ledger technology is great stuff. Gold will always be gold. Different marketplaces.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:43:38 2020 No.22839277
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>>22838451
Bitcoin is the far superior store of value. It's liquidity can not be matched by Gold, it's convenient, and caters to the hipper younger crowd in a way Boomers simply can't understand.

The Warren Buffets, Petter Schiffs, Mike Maloneys and Ron Pauls of the world are outdated relics who will be left behind in the new Technocratic Utopia Crypto currency will charge forward to.
>Me and my hubby from our Bitcoin gains

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:45:10 2020 No.22839305

>>22839024
I agree on the problems gold has relative to verification of authenticity and moving across countries. Also the higher the price gets the bigger the incentive is to counterfeit. However, for normal people I don’t consider storage to be that much of a problem for regular households because you simply don’t have that much gold and it is extremely ”value dense”.

For Bitcoin the biggest problem is that people would have to start believing in it. It would have to be accepted by the masses as a store of value. This is something that gold has done and has a solid record of and this is my biggest problem with bitcoin. Can you imagine a normal family storing their life savings in bitcoin? Bitcoin is sort of experiment that can a digitally scarce asset be accepted as a store of value or not. If BTC eventually fails, it spells doom for a large part if not the entire crypto community. Also sorry about the noob question but what happens to the network when all BTC have been mined?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:45:37 2020 No.22839314 >>22839277 You realize you can just but gold on blockchain right

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:46:13 2020 No.22839331 >>22839159 here you go good sir https://youtu.be/y8QhCW7_DZE

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:47:22 2020 No.22839349 >>22839331 Thanks fren Appreciate it

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:51:39 2020 No.22839438

>>22839305
>Also sorry about the noob question but what happens to the network when all BTC have been mined?
That's the problem. Fucking shitcoin. I hope Monero takes over soon.
But they thought about an auction system: Kind of "who is willing to pay the most for their BTC to be transfered" will be able to do so and the miners get paid this way. Laughable shitcoin.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:55:57 2020 No.22839515

>>22839438
Yeah because I don't have the answer to what happens "at the end of bitcoin" it really feels like it was designed to be a ponzi from the beginning. That it has a certain life span where some people get extremely rich and the ones who come in late get absolutely fucked.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:57:37 2020 No.22839542 >>22838451 BTC = limited edition digital beanie baby

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 12:58:35 2020 No.22839558

>>22838451
Hi bud "former" BTC maxi (dog bless rsknet) here with 60% of wealth in pm.
>BTC is a failed project
>It was supposed to revolutionize payments as a fast
Faster than back settlements and swift 9/10 times
>low cost
Cheaper than swift and currency conversion fees 9/10 times
>trustworthy payment system
Trustless*. I don't get how this is not the case.
>complete independent of any third parties such as banks or governments
It is, just like gold, but the elements that make it trustless and permanent also make it easier to trace and more expensive to obscure.
>the blockchain is slow and simply does not scale
Is gold any better at this? Your solution at scale is going to be something like fractional reserves / fractional custodianship. Silver, currently can be used as a currency, but it too does not have enough supply to not have some kind of fractional note at scale.
>gold has 0 real world use cases and is also similarly just a ”store of value”
Gold and BTC have similar properties and therefore similar intrinsic value.
>Permanent (solar ejection is a real risk to BTC)
>Hard to counterfeit and verifiable
>Scarce
>Can be divisible
The issue with BTC is that it is "difficult" to hold without counterparty risk and it is difficult to transact with full anonymity. The issue with gold is that it is difficult to transact without having a counterparty.
>BTC is simply numbers on a screen
No, it's a ledger where transactions are competitively verified using complex math that hasn't been broken (to our best knowledge for 10 years)
>Currently 1 BTC...
>He has gold
>He counts anything in funny money
Shiggy. Not any kind of argument. BTC is dirty as fuck. Price is set by manipulators and then miners after the supply is up, except the manipulators can't have price go too low because it would open up the system to attack. Bonus points for BTC there.
>The odds that BTC could ever replace gold as money
They're both able to be money, but I think crypto is better as currency.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:05:08 2020 No.22839692

>>22839558
I got off of BTC because there is a centralization happening, and I think it's likely that the network is at severe risk from mining centralization, gov reg & surveillance, excessive price manipulation, and high exposure to a dollar liquidity crunch. I still own BTC, just not nearly as much as I used to.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:05:13 2020 No.22839693

Bitcoin was just the first brand of blockchain, a technology that will undoubtedly transform money and finance permanently. The real question is why would anyone keep money in bitcoin when you can just put assayed gold on the blockchain distributed in global vaults that you are free to withdraw? With bitcoin you are betting on technology and you also have to bet on the specific blockchain brand, not to mention you're better off with a slowly increasing supply of money than a static one, generally speaking.

Gold on the blockchain has a 0% chance of ever becoming worthless as well as all of the benefits of any other blockchain project. If people start to doubt the blockchain security, they withdraw their gold and can still transact with it through notes from 100% reserve banks they deposit the gold in. If people get wary of blockchain security in the future with bitcoin, it crashes to 0 and we have a financial crisis and hyperinflation.

https://kinesis.money/

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:06:44 2020 No.22839737 >>22839558 >BTC is dirty as fuck. Price is set by manipulators The gold price is literally set by a handful of bankers every day in London

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:08:29 2020 No.22839784 >>22838451 >In my view, BTC is a failed project. well duh you are a shitcoiner apparently. sucks for you.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:08:54 2020 No.22839792

>>22839692
Can you expand on this centralization, surveillance and manipulation? Manipulation is all too familiar for me in the pm space knowing the tricks banksters such as JPM use to artificially hammer down the price of metals particularly silver and how the comex trades almost solely paper, not actual physical metal. Also if you are afraid of dollar liquidity crunch doesn't that apply to pms as well? So I assume you converted some of your BTC to physical metal but that risk of dollar crunch applies similarly to metals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:10:12 2020 No.22839819 >>22838451 btw nor gold nor btc is money. that's basically the biggest bullshit you have been fed in your life. they are commodities and occasional money substitutes and that's it.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:14:30 2020 No.22839903

>>22839737
I think I appreciate that in the following sentences. The balance between MMs and BTC is more fragile than MMs and gold, which is kind of interesting. I also didn't say that gold isn't dirty. The fact that it's value dense is kind of bad. Since the ownership of gold is heavily centralized, it may imply that silver is a better money than gold in a reset.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:15:21 2020 No.22839921 >>22839693 Thank you for this, I need to check this site out. What you said makes sense and I think a lot of BTC bulls are in denial about the security of the blockchain.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:15:46 2020 No.22839929

if enough people keep it afloat and respect bitcoin's status as currency then it might be a contender.

i don't think industrial demand is a significant force behind gold's value, so i can see bitcoin replacing it in some sense if that's what the powers that be have planned. POW-based coins are a waste of electrical energy though, and hardly ideal as a currency.

silver has more industrial demand, which accounts for a good fraction of its price. industrial silver is often not used in such a way as to be easily recoverable. it has interesting physical properties. it is rare and not really subject to the whims or goals of big investors in the long run. digital security is not an issue and i don't really trust a currency like bitcoin that can be taken from you on a whim.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:16:02 2020 No.22839937 >>22838451 >In my view, BTC is a failed project. based retard

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:17:50 2020 No.22839980 >>22839937 i have been listening to the same crap at $100 and at $1k and back at $4k dip. these people never get the memo.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:20:00 2020 No.22840024 silver is also dirt cheap at the moment. like, ridiculously cheap

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:21:46 2020 No.22840072
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I think Bitcoin will be the digital 'reserve currency'. Meaning the satoshi will be used like USD is now. But, not many will hold or transact with it, and in the longterm it won't represent a very significant portion of the value on blockchains. The gold analogy is apt since it is not only OG money, but it was the first metal we could work/smelt. Now we use hundreds of metals and alloys to do amazing things, which combined are far more valuable than gold, even if the raw forms are not. My thesis is that we are still early enough that Bitcoin still has a huge upside potential, likely the largest asset over the next 5-10 years.

But the truth is no one fucking knows. The world economy has blatantly been heading towards a major change that is all but upon us. The billion dollar questions is how to take advantage.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:22:25 2020 No.22840083

>>22839903
Silver would probably be preferred to gold by governments at first because the quantity of money (silver) would double yoy for the first several years as mining increases and industrial consumption decreases. Assuming that they switch during a hyperinflation, that would allow them to make a much softer landing than gold's 2% increases in supply

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:24:30 2020 No.22840119 >>22840024 it's actually overpriced af it should be around $7

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:25:42 2020 No.22840146 >>22839693 >Gold on the blockchain fuck off with the backed custodial fractional reserve shit! bitcoin was made to fucking sidestep these games.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:29:47 2020 No.22840231 >>22840119 >it should be around $7 you can't even get a big mac and fries for $7. you're out of your mind.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:30:27 2020 No.22840243
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>>22839277

Schiff understands that the only use-case of Bitcoin is to serve as an alternative to gold. People speculate on Bitcoin because they have the deluded hope that it will become the new system of money, and go 100x. But either Bitcoin or gold is going to win; you can't have both. And if it is gold which becomes the new system of money after the reset,--and it obviously will, which is why central banks are hoarding it,--then nobody will be foolish enough to trade their gold for Bitcoin. Schiff doesn't want people to lose everything once the reset takes place. He is especially insistent because the Bitcoin bubble has already burst, so it isn't even intelligent to speculate on it any more; when you have mining stocks, which have the potential to go 150x (average for silver penny stocks from 62 to 68, when silver doubled). BTC is a range-bound dead end at this point. Only Twitter moonboys and ignorant boomers are keeping it alive.

Bitcoin is only here as we transition from the old system of money into the new. People buy it as a hedge against inflation. Once fiat is gone, Bitcoin serves no purpose.

Schiff could make a far better case against Bitcoin if he knew more about it. I doubt he's aware quite how useless it is. Even if the LN, which is perpetually "two years away" was widely implemented, BTC would only be usable by 0.1% of the world's population. BTC requires second-layer solutions which track and trace everything you do. Hence it doesn't even serve the purpose of privacy. This is why Mike Hearn left the project in disgust.

https://blog.plan99.net/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7

BTC looks even worse when you consider the fact that Satoshi is almost certainly Adam Back, the head of Blockstream. It would make perfect sense to me that crypto was designed as a scam from the beginning; as another way, besides the COMEX, to suppress the price of gold, by deluding people away from real money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfcvX0P1b5g

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:31:18 2020 No.22840260

>>22840072
I think gold and BTC investors have a lot in common. Both recognize that the current FIAT system is fucked and some big chance is right around the corner. Some bet on crypto to end up on the winning side of things and other rely on gold. I agree that at this stage no one fucking knows, but something big is for sure coming. I think we have 0 chance of having USD as a reserve currency in 2030 as it is today.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:35:15 2020 No.22840330 >>22840146 It's not fractional retard. With how shit bitcoin's transaction capabilities are, bitcoin also requires 3rd party transaction providers if it becomes the currency.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:36:28 2020 No.22840350
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>>22839693

I love Kinesis and Andrew Maguire, but thought people might find this video where Peter Schiff talks about GoldMoney interesting (formerly called BitGold). It's a different company, but the principles he talks about apply to Kinesis just as truly if not more so. You can break gold down into fragments just as you can a Bitcoin into satoshis. It is possible to buy a cup of coffee with a gold-backed credit card right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjqzyqRz_Mc&ab_channel=Goldmoney

>>22839737

The dream that BTC could be used as a world-reserve currency was shattered when people suffered 3-day waiting times and $100-dollar transaction fees. BTC survives today only as a bubble propped up by fraudulent tether-printing. When the system collapses, the COMEX will go bankrupt and gold and silver will soar farther than ever before in human history. The precise opposite will happen to BTC. Gold is manipulated downward, BTC is manipulated upward. If you bet on the system collapsing, you buy gold. Why do you think BTC dumped so fast in March, while gold remained stable? Deep down, everybody knows this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:39:47 2020 No.22840420 >>22840260 somewhat ironically, my portfolio right now is more or less- 1/3 gold/pm 1/3 btc crypto 1/3 USD/stocks

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:40:00 2020 No.22840430 BTC is slow is Brainlet FUD as 99% of BTC will be locked away forever and people will just trade securities as fast as the current technology

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:41:35 2020 No.22840465 >>22840350 Gold is retarded in the event of a collapse the first thing the government takes control of is gold

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:42:34 2020 No.22840487 >>22840430 Then why use bitcoin at all if you're going to have to use a different form of money? Why would you transact in bitcoin certificates if you can transact in gold certificates?

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:46:56 2020 No.22840581
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>>22840465

This is fud. First of all, if gold was banned, crypto would be banned too. Secondly, gold coins can be easily hidden. Thirdly, offshore bullion has never been confiscated, not even in 1933, nor have mining stocks. People who bought Homestake Mining, for example, made a 500% gain during the Great Depression, and doubled their money at a time when people who held mainstream stocks were losing 90% of theirs. Homestake is the ancestor of Barrick Gold, which Buffett just bought. Buffett more recently bought several Japanese companies with exposure to PMs; like Sumitomo, which owns the San Cristóbal mine in Bolivia, with 450 million ounces of silver. He wouldn't be doing that for no reason. Anybody who holds a mixture of physical coins, vaulted bullion, and mining stocks, is insulated from risk. Allocated bullion can be bought with PSLV/PHYS/OneGold/GoldSwitzerland/Kinesis/Glint/GoldMoney/BullionVault (avoid SLV and GLD), and the mining stock indices are GDX/GDXJ, SIL/SILJ.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:56:50 2020 No.22840764

>>22840487
It transparency and ease of verification are the biggest reasons a 'bitcoin certificate' is different than a 'gold certificate'.

I have to a trust a bank actually has the gold it's note represents. A smart contract with locked BTC can be easily verified with 100% certainty.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:56:52 2020 No.22840767 >>22840119 >>22840231 and in terms of rarity, there isn't even twice as much gold bullion in the world as there is silver. their relative prices are not commensurate with their rarity or usefulness.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 13:58:16 2020 No.22840797 >>22840119 >>22840231 (You) and in terms of rarity, there isn't even twice as much silver bullion in the world as there is gold. their relative prices are not commensurate with their rarity or usefulness.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 14:00:32 2020 No.22840850 >>22840465 The gov can come for it, but even the sheriff knows that from the front yard to my backyard its a killing floor. Thats why you need to stock gold and ammo.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 14:04:08 2020 No.22840930

come on. you think btc will fail now? all the huge companies buying it? they will just smash a load of money into it every time the price drops. they want to make it seem like they were 'in early'. No way its going down now unless it is banned by a major govmnt, like usa

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 14:13:16 2020 No.22841141 >>22840764 Only a fool keeps unallocated gold at a bank. That's why you register bars in your name in a private vault. >>22840581 In all its history, Switzerland has never surrendered its gold or to a foreign invader or confiscated a single ounce.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 14:22:55 2020 No.22841384

>>22841141
Switzerland obviously cannot hold all the gold and issue gold certificate. A 'personal vault' that does so sounds a lot like a bank to me. Or is the idea I will literally pay for things with physical gold? Because that's just as ridiculous as paying for coffee with Bitcoin.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 14:26:56 2020 No.22841473 >>22840350 >dude buy gold from my site but we'll take your crypto as payment for it though! Sounds a bit fishy to me. Looks like a sales pitch from Schiff. Theres a reason this guy is a billionare. He is a great salesman.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 14:34:21 2020 No.22841634

>>22841384

You can already use gold to buy a cup of coffee right now, look into Kinesis and other allocation services which others here have mentioned. When you buy gold with a bank (or buy GLD or SLV) it is unallocated, you purchase a claim on the bank rather than on the gold itself. Completely useless when the system itself breaks down, which is exactly what you are hedging for. Kinesis Goldmoney etc. also do rigorous daily audits; with banks you have to take their word for everything. Private vaults are outside the banking system.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 14:42:43 2020 No.22841795
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>>22841634
Don't be obtuse. My original point (in reference to the difference between a gold backed or bitcoin backed 'note') still stands- Bitcoin is far more transparent and trustless than gold.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 14:58:26 2020 No.22842099

>>22840330
>It's not fractional
it always is first you go custodial then you notice that everyone is shrugging off the notion of not 100% backed at all times then in a few decades 10% fractional reserve is the new standard.
bitcoin being an unbacked asset transacted inseparably from it's value solves this very fucking problem.
retards call bitcoin trust machine but it's eliminating trust in reality.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:01:07 2020 No.22842155 >>22840930 bans never really impacted the price

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:03:47 2020 No.22842203

>>22841795

>>Bitcoin is far more trustless than gold.

With BTC you risk:

Memory-loss
Dementia
Torture
Theft
Fires
Natural disasters
Human error
Another coin taking BTC's place

Causing you to lose all your money or your keys. When you have gold in a private Swiss vault, it simply sits there. Completely safe from harm. Robberies of gold in private vaults are so rare as to be historical anomalies and "crimes of the century." The BoE hasn't had a robbery in 400 years.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:12:12 2020 No.22842375 >>22842099 you are unironically retarded if you think that free markets have ever accepted reserve ratios that low. Besides, you're a schizo if you are so far gone that you fud every conceivable counter party

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:14:04 2020 No.22842420

>>22842203
You're still being obtuse, or you don't understand what 'trustless' means. And please, I'm not trying to convince you to use Bitcoin, I'm talking very specifically about the trust required to scale the system. So please stop talking about swiss vaults or your personal hang-ups with bitcoin.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:15:37 2020 No.22842454

>>22838451
BTC average transaction is 124k it may not succeed a lot in retail payments for products but hell its overperforming on everything else.

And they are right about gold if the standard worked they could not have gotten away with it.
The advantage of btc is that a ban would actually be bullish by allowing money to enter and leave without kyc.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:16:16 2020 No.22842466 >>22842375 >you are unironically retarded if you think that free markets have ever accepted reserve ratios that low i'm just telling you where custodial securities headed no exception. on the usd the current reserve ratio is 0%.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:19:49 2020 No.22842554

>>22842375
no i'm a botcoin fundamentalist. bitcoin sucks ass at everything else people try to do with it, it can only do one thing: trustless permissionless and secure publicly auditable ledger achieved by byzantine fault tolerant distributed consensus.

that's it. it's never gonna be money. it's never gonna solve all problems. it will never change the world. it will never save poorfags because poorfags are stupid and have weak hands. this is all bitcoin does: removes he need for trust. and because of it's supply curve it is also doomed to appreciate forever which makes it a good hold.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:22:36 2020 No.22842615

>>22838460
The thing you are not getting is the physical part is currently bearish you can't even take money to buy a car with you in most airports anymore or borders for that mater.

They put limits on fiat and can be confiscated for no reason and those limits at never updated for inflation.

49 years ago you could travel in a plane with enough money to buy a house now barely a car and a shitty one.

And it's worse for gold, Venezuelans had to sell gold for bitcoin before migrating since gold could not me taken with you due to border customs stealing it or confiscating it.

Search for "Civil forfeiture"

And some countries are literally putting a limit to the jewels people can use while on planes to avoid them moving wealth that way.

Meanwhile you can send 2 billion dollars with a 7 usd fee anywhere with bitcoin.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:29:21 2020 No.22842767 >>22840350 The irony is that those waiting times and fees where still faster and lower than swift kek

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:30:53 2020 No.22842795 >>22842420 "Trustless" is a duplicitous word as Blockchain-enthusiasts use it, for all the reasons given in my post. >>22842203 BTC is deeply insecure when compared to gold, and the only reason to care about trustlessness is security.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:32:03 2020 No.22842819 >>22842615 >Meanwhile you can send 2 billion dollars with a 7 usd fee anywhere with bitcoin. Truly a currency for the common man.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:32:14 2020 No.22842823

>>22842615
yep nobody really needs bitcoin until their government turns on them one way or an other. could be inflation could be worse. venezuela is a prime example.

but the best argument for bitcoin is the past decade bitcoin went from $10 to $10k and gold went from $1500 to $1900

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:33:17 2020 No.22842849 >>22842823 i bet your ass real inflation beat your appreciation on gold. it was definitely more than 30% the past decade.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:36:02 2020 No.22842913

>>22842819
>Truly a currency for the common man.
with it's supply curve it was never gonna be that.
people think bitcoin can't be cash becasue of it's technical properties. but it can't be cash because of it's supply. economically impossible.
in the early days when it's inflation was crazy high and it's adoption was fringe it served as a darknet money substitute for a short while.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:36:15 2020 No.22842914 >>22842819 Well it has economies of scale the more money you send the lest is cost in fees. Gold is the opposite the more gold you have the more it cost to move to the point there used to be armored trains to move gold.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:37:58 2020 No.22842950

>>22842823
Gold has been supressed by the fiat masters they only let it move a little in crisis like this to give the impression it works then they dump it.

What gold bugs don't get is that without international transactions capabilities the real market price can take years to realign itself with reality.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:39:30 2020 No.22842981 File: 27 KB, 1842x236, in-a-nutshell.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22842913 here is what bitcoin ogs already knew in 2013

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:41:35 2020 No.22843018

>>22842950
>Gold has been supressed
retarded meme most gold manipulation that was exposed was to the upside and only few cents. it would be incredibly risky to try create a significant discrepancy between fundamental valuation and market price. that's how a belligerent country could bankrupt an other taking advatage and calling the bluf.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:42:05 2020 No.22843023

>>22842914

>>Gold is the opposite the more gold you have the more it cost to move to the point there used to be armored trains to move gold.

Not the case in the modern era. Look into Kinesis and the other things which people have been mentioning. Allocation and blockchain technology make gold a better currency than ever before in human history. A gold-backed crypto can combine all the ease-of-use of crypto with actual intrinsic value, not simply thin-air.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:43:16 2020 No.22843045 >>22843023 >Look into Kinesis fuck your custodial fractional reserve shit! fuck your trustful games! fuck off! you either have physical gold or you have no gold.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:43:58 2020 No.22843058 File: 54 KB, 768x576, 25645674564545.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22842795 le sigh, if you can't stay on topic there's no point >>22840487 >>22840764

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:44:57 2020 No.22843071 >>22843023 >A gold-backed crypto is a fucking scam like all the other scams out there. totally worthless as it would be trivial to sell the token representation and the underlying asset separately.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:45:07 2020 No.22843080

>>22843045

Kinesis isn't fractional reserve, it's 1:1 correspondent with bullion and fully audited. That's the whole point. You're fudding about something either intentionally or from ignorance, either way you completely misrepresent the system. If there is one good-delivery silver bar in Kinesis, there are only 1000 ounces to distribute; that's it; nothing more.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:46:08 2020 No.22843096

Hey guys, I just made this new cryptocurrency. It's called Coinbit. It's like Bitcoin, but we changed the name. All my friends and I use Coinbit and not bitcoin; we just like it better, no other reason.

I wanted to make an new kind of gold as well, but couldn't make a one-to-one copy of it that had exactly the same properties but was something else, so I decided to just take the easy way out and make a new cryptocurrency instead. Whatdyathinkaboutthat?

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:46:56 2020 No.22843109

>>22843071

Peter Schiff, Alasdair Macleod, Andy Schectman, Andrew Maguire, James Turk, Chris Marcus, and all the most trusted and respected people in the PM community support allocated gold-backed cryptos and ideas like Kinesis. It's only the odd person like you on a forum who tries to spread fud about it.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:47:00 2020 No.22843110

>>22842795
>BTC is deeply insecure when compared to gold
are we talking about imaginary gold that only exists on paper or physical gold that can be easily stolen expensive to transport and to secure and totally illiquid and have crap premium that rapes you on buy/sell?

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:48:13 2020 No.22843126

>>22843080
>Kinesis isn't fractional reserve, it's 1:1
that's what the banks said too... that's what every scammer saying. and i'm telling you it will be fractional reserve before you can blink. every fucking time people go down this road since the medicis or before the end result is the same.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:50:44 2020 No.22843172

>>22843109
>trusted and respected
do you guess how we know you are a retarded boomer cuck? trust is so last millennia. get on with he times grampa! understand crypto! truly understand! there is no way to make a trustless backed asset. it's called a security for a reason. if you want to buy securites the world is chock full of them. we got billions of securities for you. and without exception it ends in betrayal.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:57:12 2020 No.22843301 [DELETED]

>>22843126

The banks don't provide audits; Kinesis, GoldMoney, and these other services do. You can look at a daily-audited bar-list, inspect your registered bars, or take delivery of them, at any time. The metal is fully allocated. I could go and have a look at my gold bars in these vaults right now if I so chose. Banks don't give you allocated bullion nor can you look at their bar-lists, nor do you have an actual claim on the bullion when you go with a bank, only on the bank itself. I don't know of a single person in the PM community who doesn't trust private vaults. I could add to my former list that Mike Maloney and Neil McCoy Ward, who keep their gold in vaults.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:58:27 2020 No.22843337 >>22843096 You're actually halfway there anon, keep following that thought.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:58:35 2020 No.22843339 >>22840420 this is my portfolio

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 15:58:44 2020 No.22843340

>>22843126

The banks don't provide audits; Kinesis, GoldMoney, and these other services do. You can look at a daily-audited bar-list, inspect your registered bars, or take delivery of them, at any time. The metal is fully allocated. I could go and have a look at my gold bars in these vaults right now if I so chose. Banks don't give you allocated bullion nor can you look at their bar-lists, nor do you have an actual claim on the bullion when you go with a bank, only on the bank itself. I don't know of a single person in the PM community who doesn't trust private vaults. I could add to my former list Mike Maloney and Neil McCoy Ward, who keep their gold in vaults. Fud about allocated bullion is a way for thin-air crypto-lovers to puff up crypto at the expense of gold. If you are trying to speak from history you are wrong, since, as I have shown, offshore bullion was safe during prior periods of gold confiscation; and Switzerland wasn't even conquered during WW2.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 16:02:18 2020 No.22843395 File: 50 KB, 767x397, 54785675678675.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22838451

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 16:08:22 2020 No.22843480 >>22843340 >gold confiscation i don't understand how this is even a concern for someone who's not so filthy rich that they have more than a square meter of PM to hide away.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 16:25:18 2020 No.22843812 >>22838451 when an olympic athlete wins, which is the bigger deal? having his or her name added to a list of winners in a database, or being in possession of the gold medal.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 16:30:11 2020 No.22843893

>>22843340
again audits are by definition bring you a trustful relationship unless you can d it yourself. bitcoin is publicly auditable. by any college kid any journalist anyone. fuck off with the trustful games! you have to understand why any backed crypto is total bullshit! unless that backing is enforced by deterministic smart contracts but that only works with other crpyto assets it would never work with physical asset.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 16:37:08 2020 No.22844002

>>22838460
>It makes a difference to own an ounce of gold that you can hold in your hand than own some random number of digits in a virtual vallet.
only boomers think like this. in the future no one will give a shit about physicality of their store of value

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 16:39:31 2020 No.22844041 >>22840072 based, i believe the same thing but like you said, if it's not true there is still lots of upside in the next decade

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 16:43:57 2020 No.22844124

>>22844002

paper fiat and worse yet digital currency has an unfortunate psychological effect. i don't believe people value their work in the same way if the compensation they receive is intangible or symbolic, and i think this has far-reaching effects on people's spending habits.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 17:37:42 2020 No.22845172 File: 119 KB, 929x1175, 1566056274788.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22840465 Meanwhile multiple nations already banned, or is in the process of banning, crypto (Russia, India, etc).

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 17:49:18 2020 No.22845374 >>22845172 notice only the shitholes with currency going down the crapper feel threatened by crypto?

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 17:54:12 2020 No.22845471
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>>22845374
Seeing how poorer nations react to this financial crisis is only an early warning test for what's to come for wealthier nations.

So don't point and laugh like someone viewing a city fire from across the river; the fire will come to your side too soon enough.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 18:17:02 2020 No.22845885 >>22839438 Monero is superior to bitcoin in almost every way

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 18:18:48 2020 No.22845924 >>22843893 >bitcoin is publicly auditable Publicly auditable, and absolutely worthless both intrinsically and as a medium of exchange.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 18:26:14 2020 No.22846064 >>22840243 Oh so Adam Beck created one of the most important creations in computer science as a scam to lead people away from gold?

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 18:37:26 2020 No.22846320

>>22846064

Back either 1) Is Satoshi, and always intended Bitcoin to be a scam, or 2) Isn't Satoshi and ruined Satoshi's creation to make money. Either way, it isn't a good look for him. Blockstream, his organization, is owned by the banks, and the banks do everything they can to suppress the price of gold; so, yes, Back is at the very least their willing tool. Have you not noticed how fervently the mainstream media promotes Bitcoin, how all the glossy shallow celebrities like the Winklevoss twins support it. Whom do you know with a mainstream platform that is supporting gold?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 19:03:03 2020 No.22846797 what ever happenend to http://didthesystemcollapse.com/ suddenly it is gone.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 19:06:59 2020 No.22846871 >>22846797 did the website collapse?

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 19:07:51 2020 No.22846891

>>22838460
From satoshi;
"Re: Bitcoin does NOT violate Mises' Regression Theorem
2010-08-27 - Link
As a thought experiment, imagine there was a base metal as scarce as gold but with the following properties: - boring grey in colour - not a good conductor of electricity - not particularly strong, but not ductile or easily malleable either - not useful for any practical or ornamental purpose and one special, magical property: - can be transported over a communications channel If it somehow acquired any value at all for whatever reason, then anyone wanting to transfer wealth over a long distance could buy some, transmit it, and have the recipient sell it. Maybe it could get an initial value circularly as you've suggested, by people foreseeing its potential usefulness for exchange. (I would definitely want some) Maybe collectors, any random reason could spark it. "
First time I read that it sounded like a very good explanation of the core important value proposition for bitcoin. Right up until 2017 fork that was true and sensible.
Now though you can repeat the thought experiment quoted above and add the condition that the ability to transmit the metal via a communication channel degrades the more people are doing it, and at an unforeseeable moment in the future that ability will dissolve entirely.
When you look at it that way, you're right, BTC just doesn't make sense anymore. As for whether anything else has the potential to takeover you better have a good answer as to why the sabotage that happened to bitcoin in 2017 won't happen to your substitute, and your explanation better account for limitless manipulation on the part of the existing system coupled with limitless stupidity from the vast majority of all people involved.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 19:23:22 2020 No.22847180 >>22846891 This is an extremely good point, and analysis of the first principles involved in this subject.

>>	Rarigold Sat Sep 26 19:27:10 2020 No.22847242 >>22838460 Why not both? If you're honestly betting on a failure of money, if you're 50/50 between the two of them and either does what it's supposed to, you'll be better off than 90% of people.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 19:32:51 2020 No.22847339 >>22838451 XRP will replace BTC.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 19:48:00 2020 No.22847624 >>22847339 Of all the things that won't happen this won't happen the most. EVE ISK would be just as likely.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 19:54:09 2020 No.22847728 File: 602 KB, 2048x1569, 1560845126551.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] BTC is not Bitcoin. BTC´s only use case is number go up

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 19:58:42 2020 No.22847804 >>22847728 I stand corrected, this is even less likely than XRP.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 20:08:39 2020 No.22847985

>>22839792
>centralization
Blockstream, mining farms, and mining pools. It's the economy of the BTC pow ecosystem.
>Surveillance
The ledger makes everything traceable. Anyone including alphabets and your barista can watch.
>Manipulation
Pretty sure crypto mms are old time scammers from wall street in the 80s and 90s. That's what the word on the block is, anyway.

>>22839819
Define money and it's properties, smooth brain.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 20:10:51 2020 No.22848026 >>22847242 Every penny which I put into Bitcoin instead of a junior mining stock is a waste in opportunity cost. I don't have the shadow of a doubt that Bitcoin with fail, and I don't have the shadow of a doubt that gold and miners will soar.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 20:15:28 2020 No.22848104

>>22847242

Every penny which I put into Bitcoin instead of a junior mining stock is a waste in opportunity cost. I don't have the shadow of a doubt that Bitcoin will fail, and I don't have the shadow of a doubt that gold and miners will soar. There is not the slightest chance that a proven fraud like BTC will succeed. Read Mike Hearn's post from 2016. https://blog.plan99.net/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7 Everything in it is still true. Most of the intelligent and principled people, like him, are long gone. By and large, anybody who is still in BTC after the block-size debate, and all the scandals, and censorship, and the takeover by Blockstream, is either naively ignorant, or an utter predator.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 20:25:29 2020 No.22848270
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>>22848104
This. There's the slimmest hope that something manages to get through all of that, like a non-broken post abc bchn based coin that slowly gains massive acceptance and value in the face of a collapse of the usdt manipulation racket artificially keeping btc in place and sucking all the air out of the room, but that chance is slim indeed as much as I wish it were otherwise.
We carried here our flag, and with it our ideals. The best we had and knew, in hope that our fellows would triumph over the mindless hordes arrayed against us.
But it is cold and dark here, and the sun may not arrive.
My battery is low.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 20:38:36 2020 No.22848486 >>22847985 >Define money >money is a currency that is legal tender >currency is a unit of account and a medium of exchange >medium of exchange must be portable and durable >unit of account must be fungible and divisible

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 20:40:34 2020 No.22848529 >>22845471 yeah but they had zero success banning bitcoin in practice so that's not really an issue.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 20:42:51 2020 No.22848588 File: 96 KB, 902x717, IMG_4139.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22848529 Ban it? They own it.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 20:55:26 2020 No.22848814

>>22848588
meh you still don't get what consensus means i see.
opensource development means it takes 5 minutes for devs to set up a new repo if one becomes compromised. actually git works without a hub/server even it's just rather inconvenient to sync with direct ip.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 21:00:01 2020 No.22848891

>>22848814
It's impressive you can maintain the illusion that's possible three years after the time at which it already happened and was mostly ignored by the ignorant hordes who have stormed the space en masse and have no metric beyond number go up muh lambo.
I never fully realized just how stupid people are until bitcoin. I still distinctly remember reading hearn's post and laughing at the idea that people could possibly be so stupid as to not scale when the time came to do so.
This world is hell and it is largely because of people like you. Your stupidity outright baffles me. I honestly don't understand how you exist given your mindblowing demonstrated ineptitude.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 21:28:22 2020 No.22849394

>>22843071
> worthless as it would be trivial to sell the token representation and the underlying asset separately.
You mean like BTC on the LN ledger or liquid ledger as opposed to on the blockchain ledger?
They're right, smoothbrained as fuck. Wake up cunt.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 21:29:30 2020 No.22849411

>>22848891

It's actually the failure of Bitcoin Cash that put me off crypto once and for all. It has been, what, four years now since Hearn made that post, and exposed BTC clearly and concisely. BCH was not only fundamentally sound, but couldn't have had a more principled or charismatic advocate in Roger Ver. And nobody cares. Absolutely no one. All the coin does is lose price, be neglected, and continue to to infight and fork. If BCH is a failed project, then I consider "thin-air" crypto a failed project also. As you say:

"Repeat Satoshi's classic thought-experiment, and add the condition of the ability to transmit the metal via a communication channel which degrades the more people are using it, and, which, at an unforeseeable moment in the future, will dissolve entirely."

I am a complete and utter believer in gold and silver now. God's money, the only things which you can't replicate, and which can be used in harmony with Blockchain technology in any event. I have completely disassociated myself from crypto in every possible way. The central bankers are going back to gold, and that is what money will revert to being, once our financial house, built on sand, comes tumbling down.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 21:34:04 2020 No.22849506 File: 171 KB, 1200x818, 0cq31r4i0u221.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22849411 Checked. Hard times create strong men. It's not over until the last man falls.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 21:43:31 2020 No.22849667 >>22839277 wow how dose a fat ass score such a tall godess of a woman like that

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 21:44:56 2020 No.22849698
File: 203 KB, 1000x1200, __gokou_ruri_kousaka_kirino_and_aragaki_ayase_ore_no_imouto_ga_konna_ni_kawaii_wake_ga_nai_drawn_by_hairu__2667623490b9a3f4d06d369175b0922f.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22840243
Gold is a scam designed to distract people from real money.

Silver

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 21:48:16 2020 No.22849766 PERSON WHO SENDS THE MOST WINS!! :warning: bc1q3tccztdt7cm5wcwfmrvc6tq6s4aeg6aj4ym066:warning:

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:02:36 2020 No.22850020 >>22847728 is this Daniel? i liked your transformers schizo vid

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:05:57 2020 No.22850071 >>22849667 dude they're both trans. the "woman" is a man. the man is literally pregnant, and is a woman.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:19:01 2020 No.22850283 >>22838451 nice blog post, drns/b

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:42:47 2020 No.22850640 >>22849394 >You mean like BTC on the LN ledger no that's not how ln works it's settled on main-chain so there is no token and underlying asset only unconfirmed settlement transactions.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:46:04 2020 No.22850705

>>22850640
You're clueless. There is a state of all present LN based channels that differs from the state which the underlying blockchain ledger would be at the time those channels terminated and all the chickens came home to roost, and more to the point that state difference is a *necessarily architectural consequence* of the design. It will never be fixed. This was pointed out a long time ago https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7fsbw5/divorcing_the_settlement_and_transaction_layers/

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:49:48 2020 No.22850765

>>22850705
>There is a state of all present LN based channels that differs from the state which the underlying blockchain ledger would be at the time those channels terminated and all the chickens came home to roost
that state is literally an unconfirmed transaction that has yet to be broadcasted. ln is not magically something different. it's just bitcoin. there is no trusted 3rd party.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:50:13 2020 No.22850772

>>22848486
How are gold and BTC not these things. You've also missed some characteristics.
From the St. Louis Fed
>The characteristics of money are durability, portability, divisibility, uniformity, limited supply, and acceptability.
Fiat misses the mark on
>uniformity
>limited supply
>in circumstances acceptability
Money isn't uniform, because your money and my money can't be used the same way it's used by more wealthy people.
>You're retarded, that's just because you don't have enough
That's exactly the point, money isn't able to afford you privileges until you reach a certain threshold. It's a ceiling that separates the money of the poor and the rich. It's essentially not uniform
>limited supply
We don't need to argue here
>At times acceptability
Alex Jones payment deplatforming, coinbase restrictions

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:51:55 2020 No.22850805
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>>22838451
>In my view, BTC is a failed project. It was supposed to revolutionize payments as a fast, low cost, trustworthy payment system, which is complete independent of any third parties such as banks or governments. However, the blockchain is slow and simply does not scale and therefore it cannot be used for everyday transactions by a large number of people. The Bitcoin crowd realized this and instead of revolutionizing every day payments it just became a store of value.

if only you knew how incredible things are going to become

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:52:30 2020 No.22850812 >>22850772 >How are gold and BTC not these things. not legal tender some gold coins specifically are legal tender at face value. but that's it. and in that case them being printed on gold is a technicality it's just fiat coin.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:52:45 2020 No.22850818

>>22850765
> yet to be broadcasted.
that *can't* be broadcast at a rate greater than x, whilst the market moves at a rate many orders of magnitude greater than x.
The necessary consequence is that the purchasing power represented by an LN locked BTC has no relation whatsoever to the purchasing power represented by an unlocked blockchain unit.
The fact people have missed this is further evidence of just how fucking stupid they are.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:53:55 2020 No.22850840 >>22850812 >not legal tender I forgot, people on 4chan can still really lick boots clean.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:56:05 2020 No.22850889

>>22850772
also read carefully some characteristics are derived form others and all the important ones are listed. the limited supply is obviously not a characteristic of money because fiat supply is pretty much infinite and it's undoubtedly money acceptability is covered by legal tender, uniformity is just an other word for fungible just less specific.

you should try to understand what you are talking about first.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:57:12 2020 No.22850913 >>22850818 that's retarded m8. totally bollocks. btc locked in a smart contract is just any btc. since all utxo-s are locked in a smart contract however primitive it is.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:58:25 2020 No.22850936 >>22850840 that's what money is m8. you can't have money without it being legal tender. that's called a foreign currency or crypto currency or whatever else. what makes a currency money is law.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 22:59:43 2020 No.22850949 >>22850913 OK, how many ounces of gold will you pay me for a BTC blockchain transaction paying you 0.2 BTC at block height 108174?

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:00:55 2020 No.22850967

>>22850936
and so you understand this simple thing: in my country the usd is not money. that's right good old dollar is not money. you can't buy shit with it in a store it's not accepted by anyone really. it could be a money substitute in certain situations but it's a foreign currency.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:01:36 2020 No.22850981

>>22850949
Block height 1,083,174.
If the answer is anything other than "I have no idea what purchasing power BTC will have at that block height" you're just providing further evidence of your stupidity.
And that situation is *better* than an LN locked transaction, because at least you know exactly at which block height the transaction will finally resolve and you will be able to spend for purchasing power. LN you have absolutely no idea.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:07:29 2020 No.22851066

>>22850981
dude you are a moron you don't understand any of this shit. a transaction with a simple timelock would be worthless. it would have to be a multistage multisig timelocked smart contract. where i can spend with my private key unilaterally if i can show a secret for h(s) or something. then with btc locked in that smart contract once you reveal to me the secret in exchange for the physical gold you can't screw me over anymore.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:09:17 2020 No.22851099 >>22851066 but i will give you that blockheight is too far in the future for me to bother with that transaction most likely but probably would give you 1oz of gold for it just to bury your argument here.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:10:22 2020 No.22851119

>>22838451
>>22838451
a gold standard is not a good thing it is what allows debasement
take 1933, where they reduced the value of the standard as an example:

Under gold standard:
1932 dollar pegged at 1/20th an ounce of gold
wage $5000usd (250 ounces)
savings $10,000usd (500 ounces)
then
1934 dollar now 1/35th an ounce
wage $5000usd (142 ounces)
savings $10,000usd (285 ounes) -43% in wealth 0% change in dollars

vs

Priced in gold with free market currency
1932
wage 250 ounces ($5000)
savings 500 ounces ($10,000)
then
1934
wage 250 ounces ($8750)
savings 500 ounces ($17,500) 0% change in wealth 75% increase in $

Debasement makes you do more for less. It is war time economics. The only question is, is the war a racket or is it real

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:12:41 2020 No.22851152

>>22851066
You're exactly proving my point. Throwing in buzzwords that you don't understand the meaning of doesn't change the experiment at all. When the chain is congested (which it must be by design, see maxwell's comments toasting champaign when it broke 50 USD fees three years ago, this is not an accident and it will not change) you cannot make any deterministic estimate of the block height at which you will have access to the unit on the blockchain again, therefore it's *WORSE* than the case where you know there is some definite point in future where you will have it, despite even that case being inestimable due to uncertainty in the changing state of the market over time.
There's no need to screw you over, you've already screwed yourself over.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:13:06 2020 No.22851159

>>22851119
>a gold standard is not a good thing it is what allows debasement
that's what i tried to explain to the brainlets here.
not just debasement but what preludes that debasement. first on paper the security is 100% backed with gold. then it turns out it isn't. then it becomes official it isn't and you are all screwed for trusting said authority in the first place.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:16:50 2020 No.22851227 >>22851152 rofl your timelock will be way longer then mine a temporary congestion is no issue. and 0.2 btc by the time we reach that blockheigh will be worth a lambo pretty much, if i have to pay $50 for claiming it so be it.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:17:14 2020 No.22851231

>>22838451
BTC used to be $1. The "store of value meme" only worked when big inst. money bought alongside the Chinese miners, and they know exactly when to buy and sell.

It's a psyop, really.

Chainlink was your best bet for true, untainted riches.

Now it's Verasity.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:20:03 2020 No.22851276

>>22851227
It's not going to be 50 USD, try the cost of an oil tanker. it doesn't matter how high fees climb or how dysfunctional the BTC chain gets, they have already made very clear that it will remain broken in the current state regardless.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-weirdly-similar-oil-tanker-193055717.html

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:21:34 2020 No.22851291

>>22851159
yeah it does my head in all these retards would think a new gold standard would be a good thing when it would actually be the largest debasement of the wealth so far (99% loss of wealth). The us has like 4000 tonnes of gold. Then the standard would just be reduced again by the next leftist president.
People can only blame themselves though you do not have to measure wealth in usd

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:24:13 2020 No.22851333 >>22851276 nah you are a stupid nigger cashie that's all

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:25:33 2020 No.22851347 >>22851333 I rest my case. Enjoy the ruins of the shitcoin you purchased. You deserve what's coming.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:26:14 2020 No.22851363
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>>22848104
>I don't have the shadow of a doubt that Bitcoin will fail, and I don't have the shadow of a doubt that gold and miners will soar.
Anyone with this much certainty about the future of the economy and money is 100% confirmed a brainlet schizo.
The smartest people in the world admit they can't predict exactly what will happen, or when.
Regardless of your personal conclusions, diversify and hedge anons. The world is crazy place and anything is possible.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:28:46 2020 No.22851398

>>22851347
even in the event which is total baseless bollocks btw that the bitcoin blockchain would become largely unusable for private persons it would still be insanely worth to hold bitcoin that long. that's generational wealth. and it has nothing to do with network properties or anything only it's supply and the meme alone would carry it.

but of course i don't believe for a second you are correctly assessing either bitcoin capabilities or the intent of it's developers. you are just spouting empty cashie propaganda.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:30:40 2020 No.22851426 >>22851398 exhibit a for the rank stupidity of mankind. "Yeah even if it does turn out to be just rust imagine holding it until everybody becomes aware of that! GENERATIONAL WEALTH!" I'm done with you kid, fuck off.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:32:05 2020 No.22851447 >>22851398 it already is unusable. It can't do more than 144mb/day that is statistically unusable for private citizens. That adoption limit was reached in 2017

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:32:29 2020 No.22851454

>>22851426
you don't understand what bitcoin is. at all. you also don't even understand it's smart contract capabilities apparently. i bet you have no clue about what taproot will bring to bitcoin either. and you try to run your mouth and pretend you have a brain.
funny.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:33:34 2020 No.22851474 >>22851447 never had a problem using it. so far every time i transacted in btc i was amazed by how fast and cheap it is compared to international wires.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:33:57 2020 No.22851478 >>22851454 the original bitcoin script is turing complete

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:33:58 2020 No.22851479 >>22851454 "you don't understand the powerful features of my dysfunctional rust, pheer". This shit is like warez bbs' in 1994, fuck this planet, really.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:38:01 2020 No.22851548 >>22851474 >even in the event which is total baseless bollocks btw that the bitcoin blockchain would become largely unusable for private persons >7tps max are you retarded?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:40:30 2020 No.22851602 File: 170 KB, 360x346, 236262362362.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22851478 >the original bitcoin script is turing complete You have fully exposed yourself

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:44:56 2020 No.22851692 >>22851602 https://youtu.be/QJ1DTeexpvA it is though

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:47:30 2020 No.22851738 >>22838451 only rich people can have gold, everybody can have bitcoin

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:49:31 2020 No.22851778 >>22851692 I'm not going to watch a 20 min video from a 'SV' schizo. Bitcoin, as in the thing 99.9% of people think of when you say 'Bitcoin' is not turning complete by design.

Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:53:41 2020 No.22851842
File: 9 KB, 259x194, 445.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22851778
great argument bro.
here's some more evidence for you to ignore
https://youtu.be/K1N9yE_I1ng
https://youtu.be/MwGRfJ0L5eQ
https://youtu.be/moA7KASx3WE
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3265157
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3160279
https://medium.com/@craig_10243/bitcoin-a-total-turing-machine-5a6c3c68f5a7

satoshi put those op codes in for no reason right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 26 23:54:58 2020 No.22851860 >>22851842 https://youtu.be/YOh_ghmeDAM

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 00:08:04 2020 No.22852096

>>22851842
>30 mins of video about 'Bitcoin SV', other links broken
If you can't summarize the point you're trying to make I'm not going to waste hours of my time watching rando videos or reading papers. And again, I have zero interest in discussing Bitcoin SV. We're having not an argument. I'm trying to discuss apples and you keep pointing out features of oranges.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 00:12:04 2020 No.22852148

>>22852096
The summary is that the textbook definition of turing completeness isn't actually 'correct' in some sense because no extant computer (read; turing machine) has an infinite tape, therefore given that limitation it comes down to what is *practically* a turing machine, and the argument becomes that you can use bitcoin script in order to do anything that a turing machine could do simply by expanding the outer loops out into an imperative direct declaration to perform them instead.
Doesn't really sound that convincing to me but whatever I guess. It just sounds like fucking with definitions in the opposite direction to make some fundamentally irrelevant point that elevates your profile from the perspective of the clueless and buzzword obsessed.
To be fair, that's most of the fucking planet.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 00:23:17 2020 No.22852333

>>22852096
>summarise the points
bitcoin is turing complete
you say >>22851778
>'Bitcoin' is not turning complete by design.
not when you remove the original op codes

>>22852148
yeah you could have an argument about that but at the end of the day we are expressing that everything can be done on bitcoin in script which is true.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 00:39:14 2020 No.22852623 Should I trade my gold for silver?

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 00:42:40 2020 No.22852680

>>22852148
>>22852333
I won't sit here and claim to personally understand the code, but I've been in bitcoin for a decade and have seen the turing argument many times and people who are far smarter than me continually refute it.
That this anon keeps linking SV videos makes me believe that the current BTC, that'd I'd get from coinbase or whatever, isn't turing complete or useful for any scripting use.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 00:43:38 2020 No.22852688 >>22839515 >>22845885 >>22839438 /thread >>22838451 You're right OP. Basically people that still shill for BTC are cucked retards.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 00:50:57 2020 No.22852828

>>22852680
btc is not turing complete because core disabled the op codes.
The original bitcon is

here's the links that were broken before
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3160279
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3265146
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3265157

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 00:51:01 2020 No.22852829 >>22852688 The 'end' of Bitcoin will be approximately 2140. I'll start worrying about this FUD after I get my cyborg body in 2080.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:05:13 2020 No.22853092 >>22852829 Bitcoin 'ended' as MoE sooner than you thought. I hope you've got something to replace SoV in the next decade.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:13:34 2020 No.22853240

>>22850936
>>22850967
I'm arguing a bit of semantics here. Money is much more similar to BTC and gold. Currency is much more similar to paper, BTC, and crypto. money doesn't have to be the currency. A currency can be accepted as legal tender and not be sound money. In the seventies, us loans were at "exorbitant" rates due to the change from backing with hard money to tax liability tickets. One of the major tools we have, debt, would be seen as completely unusable given the "unlimited supply" + unfunded liabilities issues. We could still originate fiat legal tender loans, but they would be with high rates and likely have hard money as collateral.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:20:35 2020 No.22853362

>>22853092
So you admit the 'what happens when all BTC are mined' is weak FUD? Anyone with a brain (including satoshi and original devs) knew from the very start BTC can't scale as MoE (despite this it has been and still is used in this way). SoV's longevity is still to be seen, but please do make your case for why it will fail in this regard.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:24:17 2020 No.22853439 File: 199 KB, 1450x942, 1_u7NkBginyyMMFvM9Ei6hAA.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22853362 >calls bitcoin peer to peer electronic cash system >thinks it can't scale as a medium of exchange kys https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:30:51 2020 No.22853565 >>22853439 Where do I say bitcoin is 'peer to peer electronic cash system'? It objectively cannot scale as MoE, or are you still talking about oranges?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:33:52 2020 No.22853625 >>22853565 >satoshi and original devs knew from the very start BTC can't scale as MoE. unless you want to argue cash is not a medium of exchange or the pic is not satoshis quote?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:37:45 2020 No.22853694 >>22853625 >still talking about oranges Ok anon. You clearly have a hardon for SV, and thats fine. But it's completely retarded to intentionally confuse the discussion about BTC in its current form without being clear what your talking about.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:39:27 2020 No.22853724 >>22853694 you claim satoshi though bitcoin couldn't scale as a medium of exchange. that is false.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:43:27 2020 No.22853793 >>22853724 Ok pedant. Satoshi knew the system that we currently have as bitcoin couldn't scale as a medium as exchange. The fact he envisioned solutions (that didn't get implemented) proves this. Idk why you're being so intentionally dense.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:45:00 2020 No.22853819

>>22853694
How can you get this far through the thread and still think btc in its current form is anything but useless?
Go back to the thought experiment;
"Repeat Satoshi's classic thought-experiment, and add the condition of the ability to transmit the metal via a communication channel which degrades the more people are using it, and, which, at an unforeseeable moment in the future, will dissolve entirely."
What's the market value of dull rust?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 01:47:43 2020 No.22853860 >>22853793 satoshi never commented on the 2020 cryptocurrency btc. The fact you need to make the distinction between "the system that we currently have as bitcoin" and bitcoin shows btc isn't bitcoin >he envisioned solutions what solutions?

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 02:00:32 2020 No.22854054

>>22851454

> i bet you have no clue about...

id pBTz8Jvc is refuting you in any event; but the fact that you have to keep boasting, and telling everybody how clever you are, and how little they know, and how silly they are, is one main reason why BTC will never succeed. You talk in technobabble, and what is gibberish to 99.99% of mankind, and yet you think that Bitcoin will somehow win against gold, which is universal and simple to understand. People won't surrender to living under a technocracy, and being dictated to by people like you, nor should they. Money should be easy, not difficult.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 02:02:13 2020 No.22854076

>>22853860
>The fact you need to make the distinction between "the system that we currently have as bitcoin" and bitcoin shows btc isn't bitcoin
You are the one that keeps disingenuously using the world 'bitcoin' to describe something different to what 99.9% of the world knows as bitcoin, forcing me to make the distinction. If you were being honest and used 'BSV' I wouldn't have to be hyper-specific like that in an attempt to prevent your weaseling
>what solutions?
You know what I'm talking about. There are pages of archived threads discussing the scaling problem

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 02:06:03 2020 No.22854150

>>22854076
I define bitcoin by the whitepaper and I define what satoshi thought by what he wrote.

there is no scaling problem. Satoshi believed bitcoin could scale what scaling solutions did he have to a problem he didn't believe existed?

the cryptocurrency btc can't scale because it has an arbitrary 144mb/day limit

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 02:18:02 2020 No.22854330
File: 53 KB, 1743x267, 5484464864648.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22854150
Again, you know this and are intentionally being dense to push your BSV hardon, but for other anons looking for truth, here is the relevant thread-

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.0

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 02:25:32 2020 No.22854439

>>22854330
You're repeating exactly what your interlocutor is saying; Satoshi believed bitcoin could scale, you even quote him directly illustrating how you would do it.
It didn't get done, and not only did it it not get done, the sector was swamped with a massive horde of clueless cheerleaders who were vigorously celebrating the fact that it didn't get done because of their idiocy.
Great, mission accomplished. Now your boat is sinking, congratulations.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 02:27:06 2020 No.22854461
File: 389 KB, 2048x1536, EAiNKs8XUAAf3S4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22854330
that's not a solution to a scalability issue it's a solution to mitigating Denial of Service (DoS) Attacks on when bitcoin was small.

Satoshi did not think bitcoin had a scalability issue

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 02:52:13 2020 No.22854795
File: 100 KB, 400x400, 87984984984548949.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22854461
>>22854439
Unchanged, it was not going to be able to scale. Weather or not satoshi considered this a 'scalability issue' or just a logical development is a silly thing to debate. I absolutely agree the way it played out isn't ideal and cost BTC it's MoE function.

This entire discussion can be boiled down to me making a statement about BTC and anons intentionally misunderstanding me to mean 2010 bitcoin. I'm not a 'believer' of any crypto, but the market has chosen BTC and it still has many valuable qualities. Should the market shift, I will too.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 02:52:31 2020 No.22854802
File: 44 KB, 500x500, asffasf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22838451
Your first mistake is to give value to anything you just thought about.
You compare two separate universes as equal. You gave them value number and then act like they are on the same level.
No, if you are going to trade "something", you will need "trust". Because if there is trust, you would be trading solar system asteroids today. There is no trust, so you don't.
You can write pages on your "value" thoughts all day long and you will still miss the point of money. There is no value in dollars, it's trust, either forced or volunteered.
I bet you work at Jp as intern....

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 02:55:39 2020 No.22854841

>>22854795
the market is fraudulent, look at the daily USDT volumes relative to the rest. No intelligent decision is being made here, it's just a scam validating a fait accompli sabotage that happened three years ago. The market won't shift until the case currently in progress against USDT or some other force destroys that fraudulent marker.
And the MoE and SoV functions are not separable, they are *dependent*. A store of value you can't spend is as the thought experiment illustrates as worthless as plain old rust, and a medium of exchange nobody values is otherwise known as dirt.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:06:04 2020 No.22854990 >>22838451 >the blockchain is slow and simply does not scale and therefore it cannot be used for everyday transactions by a large number of people This board is for shilling and baiting, your smarts aren't wanted here. /pol/ is that way.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:09:45 2020 No.22855042
File: 137 KB, 1600x893, 2e39227f6f2b96e136add8efe8774dd0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22854841
Last post, already spent too much time in this fucking thread and have shit to do, but-
>A store of value you can't spend is as the thought experiment illustrates as worthless as plain old rust
Can you spend a house or land? Can you even directly spend physical gold? You can actually directly spend BTC, it's just not practical on a small scale.
>the market is fraudulent, look at the daily USDT volumes
see pic related. Stable coins aren't being used to manipulate BTC that much, my theory is they are most being used for people hiding from downturns and for margin trading.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:11:48 2020 No.22855071

>>22839305
>>22839438
>>22839515
Miners get that transaction fee you're charged when you move bitcoin. Once all the bitcoin are mined, miners keep running it to get those bits of the transaction fees. Since the cost of bitcoin is supposed to be insanely high at that point, even the tiny scraps of fees will be worth the electricity and other resources to keep the miners running.

Also, you have a vote on updates to the Bitcoin protocol depending on how big your mining power is, hence the whole 51% attack thing which is why China is trying to be the mining god.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:13:56 2020 No.22855096

>>22855042
>Can you spend a house or land? Can you even directly spend physical gold?
Yes, yes and yes. I can sell all 3 for money, which makes them a medium of exchange. However I can not spend BTC when the blockchain is clogged, our when the transaction fee exceeds the amount to be sent.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:16:20 2020 No.22855135
File: 189 KB, 1261x702, tetherscam.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22855042
> Can you spend a house or land? Can you even directly spend physical gold?
Absolutely, you can change the ownership for other resources, and if you couldn't do this, they would be worth much less. If they had no utility on top of that, they would be worth nothing.
> You can actually directly spend BTC, it's just not practical on a small scale.
And as previously mentioned, this capacity (as long as the aforementioned exchange for alternate valuable resources capacity) will continue to degrade as more people make use of it, and at some unforeseeable point in the future it will vanish entirely.
That makes it useless, to argue otherwise is to not understand the purpose of exchange or value period.
> Stable coins aren't being used to manipulate BTC that much, my theory is they are most being used for people hiding from downturns and for margin trading.
See pic related, you're flat out wrong. This ratio back when the value proposition for bitcoin was sensible was well below 5%, it is now frequently over 120%

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:22:47 2020 No.22855213

>>22851119
Yeah I am familiar with the history. Governments usually cant live by their means and start cheating the gold standard which eventually leads to people finding out and debasement of the currency as you stated. However, I would argue that these are not ailments of gold but of politicians. The gold standards have worked remarkably well, for example see the US in 19th century and how much wealthier they got under gold standard. The problem is people, the guys in charge who start to cheat the otherwise great money standard.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:25:51 2020 No.22855250

>>22855213
This is however the Achilles heel with precious metals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
When the gloves and mask come off, the state engages in naked banditry for all to see. Any other viewpoint is kidding themselves. A functional cryptocurrency did not have this vulnerability, but it does unfortunately seem to have the vulnerability that keeping it functional requires too much mental horsepower from the great mass of humanity, even the extremely simple proposition that you must be able to spend a store of value for it to be legitimately a store of value is apparently incomprehensibly difficult for a significant portion of our retarded braindead population.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:29:06 2020 No.22855287

>>22842203
I would argue that physical gold has a bigger risk from fires/natural disasters as bitcoin can be backed up easily. The torture theft memory loss stuff can happen with metal too. I stack silver and have Bitcoin, the Bitcoin feels more physically safe to me. I'm armed and stuff but if I'm away someone could in theory break into my house and find a stash.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:29:07 2020 No.22855288

>>22838460
>>22838451
Both desu + don't underestimate btc's "phyisicality". It's true you can't hold it in your hand, but even after ww3 you'll have a full node left and the chain continues. It's a more physical asset than most believe on first sight. It's also quite resistant to prohibitions due to decentralization. The nodes are like a hydra with thousand heads. Gold was in fact prohibited each time a currency was exchanged by those in power. You had to hide it and fear often severe punishment. Your btcs exist as long as you have your private key.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:31:18 2020 No.22855322 >>22839305 >families storing their life savings in btc Anon this is happening right now. Venezuela was hit by hyperinflation, people saved their wealth by putting it in btc

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:31:50 2020 No.22855332
File: 33 KB, 480x360, 1813546874564.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22855096
>>22855135
What is the 'transaction fee' for selling a house? Can you easily sell a portion of your house?
The BTC blockchain 'vanishing' has been disproven, and even if it was a valid critique, its a problem for many decades down the road. I personally use BTC for direct transactions every month, and have for years.
>See pic related
Why does all the of the USDT volume have to be related to BTC? It could easily be being used to gamble on leveraged shitcoins. Genuinely interested in your logic behind this.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:38:54 2020 No.22855411

>>22855332
> What is the 'transaction fee' for selling a house? Can you easily sell a portion of your house?
Depends, and depends on what you mean by "easily". Neither of those change any of the facts about the value of houses and land vs BTC.
> The BTC blockchain 'vanishing' has been disproven
No, it hasn't, assuming you mean the hypothesis that the chain might simply stop being extended due to a rapid leaving of the hashpower enough that the DAA can't adjust to compensate, that's completely possible. But that's not at all what I meant by it being functionally impossible to spend at an unforeseeable point in the future, that's simply based on the fact of its set in stone hard transaction limit, there is thus competing capacity to fill ledger space per block, and as time goes on this competition becomes more severe, to the point that an increasing amount of the UTXO set cannot move at all.
> I personally use BTC for direct transactions every month, and have for years.
And this refutes the fact that an unforeseeable point in the future neither you nor anybody else will be able to do this? That's right, not at all.
> Why does all the of the USDT volume have to be related to BTC? It could easily be being used to gamble on leveraged shitcoins. Genuinely interested in your logic behind this.
It lists the amount of volume attributable by pair under the particular asset in question, and BTC is always the largest counterparty pair with USDT.
Sorry, but it's all just a scam, you've been sold a mirage and you don't appear to be intelligent enough to see through it. Too bad, so sad.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:45:08 2020 No.22855469

>>22839693
I doubt this. If btc was ever replaced by another cryptographic token concerning market cap, the function of wealth storage would be over. This doesn't work like gold and silver than, it would mean normies can't trust that the coin they chose to put their savings in is still there in ten years and not replaced by some other coin eg with slightly better technology. It's all about trust concerning wealth storage and that's why btc still has the best set of cards in this game.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:47:05 2020 No.22855490

>>22855469
It's not about "slightly better technology". It's about cars vs matchbox cars. BTC isn't just "slightly worse" than the competition, it is fundamentally fatally flawed.
It may well be that the entire space is doomed because humans are generally too stupid to grasp the above, but it won't be because some of us are not too stupid to grasp the above.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:49:44 2020 No.22855526

>>22855411
So by your logic if the US dollar or any other currency or asset *could* no longer be valuable or usable at *some unknown point* in the future, that makes them currently valueless?
> BTC is always the largest counterparty pair with USDT.
That is not what your pic shows, it simply shows total 24hr volume. BTC should be the largest, as it's the largest % of the market, but that hardly proves manipulation. The graph I posted shows that stablecoin supply as a ratio of BTC price has been steadily decreasing for over a year.
I've been hearing 'scam' since 2010, yet I'm essentially retired in my 30s thanks to BTC. My fully paid house and car are not mirages. I fully admit it may all come crashing down someday, but your making a far less compelling argument that it will than you think. Regardless, thanks for your thoughts, I really must go now.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:50:30 2020 No.22855536 >>22855490 Do you hold any crypto positions? What do you unironically think of chainlink for example?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:51:32 2020 No.22855550 File: 307 KB, 2518x1024, 9732F288-6F22-431D-A21C-C3B5A794CF01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22838451

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:55:48 2020 No.22855604

>>22855526
> So by your logic if the US dollar or any other currency or asset *could* no longer be valuable or usable at *some unknown point* in the future, that makes them currently valueless?
No, because the difference is the variability is if it's going to happen, there's no known fact that in the future the USD will be worth nothing because of a fundamental flaw in the way in which it is transacted, but there is a known fact that in the future the BTC will be worth nothing because of a fundamental flaw in the way in which it is transacted. The fact that it is not already worth nothing is because people haven't yet figured the above out or are simply in flat out denial regarding it.
> That is not what your pic shows,
I didn't say it did, I said the data was available if you drill down into the actual asset class, but then...
> BTC should be the largest, as it's the largest % of the market,
You already knew that, you're just arguing for the sake of it.
> but that hardly proves manipulation.
Sure, the shitty asset with no present realistic value proposition which has had an exponentially increasing amount of the trade volume constituted in a fraudulent unbacked USD facsimile token is not at all a suspicious thing.
Then again, I guess if you're stupid enough to think spending has nothing to do with value, you're probably stupid enough to be unable to tell the above is sarcasm.
> I've been hearing 'scam' since 2010, yet I'm essentially retired in my 30s thanks to BTC
For seven of those years it was completely reasonable for it not to be evaluated as a scam. For the past three years this has not been so.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:55:53 2020 No.22855607

>>22855490
That's not how it works anon. Again, it's not about technology. There were people waiting for three days on a transfer confirmation, so what? Try to move gold into another country.
You're arguing with arguments that would be valid if btc was intended to be a monetary replacement. That's not what it is and what it will become. It's a store of value.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:56:51 2020 No.22855618 >>22855607 No matter how many times you repeat this a store of value you can't spend is worthless.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 03:59:22 2020 No.22855658 >>22855604 >>22855618 Hey mate real interesting in your take home on other crypto's that aren't btc >>22855536

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:00:38 2020 No.22855673 >>22855618 I don't know what you want to prove. But the fact that people pay 10600 dollars for a btc is showing you are not correct. You're writing against reality.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:03:36 2020 No.22855713

>>22855658
My position basically matches >>22848270
I have some small remnants of various tokens I've kept hold of out of a stubborn refusal to surrender entirely, but I really do think the most likely outcome and evaluation of the world as it stands is that people are simply flat out too stupid to handle a monetary system based around cryptocurrency. And I don't mean this in the sense typically meant by it, regarding difficulty in using wallets or key handling or any of that, I mean in the fact that hordes of them will cheer the fundamental death of any currency that reaches any significant market cap as it's sabotaged and simultaneously pumped in price using obvious fake assets in an outright manipulation racket.
If you're going to war with an army of chimps, the best you can do is probably keep them well fed and maybe, maybe if you're lucky you can teach them how clubs or spears work, You will not be able to teach them small arms and squad tactics letalone artillery and armoured mechanised infantry.
Well, we're going to war with an army of chimps, and cryptocurrencies are alien fusion ray guns.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:05:00 2020 No.22855730 >>22855673 case in point >>22855673 and I bet this guy is actually representative of the intelligent and well informed sector of the market, despite being a complete drooling retard by any reasonable estimation.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:11:35 2020 No.22855811

>>22855730
I'm not sure if you can judge who is in the intelligent side of the market. Your argumentation is just flawed. That you would switch to insults was clear from the beginning, but i try to show you saying "store of value only good if it can be spent" is absolute bs. Can you spend stocks? Where can you spend gold or real estates? All major assets have a transformation step into monetary before being able to spend them. And btc's transformation step is far from impractical.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:13:35 2020 No.22855835

>>22855811
> Can you spend stocks?
Yes.
> Where can you spend gold or real estates?
At the exchanges that trade in millions to billions worth of these assets every day.
> All major assets have a transformation step into monetary before being able to spend them.
And no major asset has a transformation step that is architecturally designed to be impossible past a certain amount of other transactors in the asset class group. None, at all.
I'm sorry kid, but you're just an idiot, there's no getting around it.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:18:02 2020 No.22855876

I hold 40% GOLD
20% USD split between bank and cash
20% BTC
20% ETH and the like

I’m really picky on what I invest in but I like to diversify as much as possible. I would never invest in a food farming token or any of these deflationary tokens.

I like to find projects that aren’t shilled on /biz/. For example, I was looking into this the other day as much as I hate the DeFi craze

https://www.marketwatch.com/press-release/desire-finance-aims-to-bring-defi-to-new-heights-2020-09-22

There’s good stuff out there but it’s hard to find. You’ll NEVER find anything good on here in terms of stable investments.

But Gold. Gold will always be king. I believe bitcoin will bring about a store of value in the $100,000 range in a few years.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:18:30 2020 No.22855881

>>22838460
Your fud is the most bullish thing I've ever read. It would be difficult to use a boomer rock when our brains are uploaded to the cloud through neuralink and you're trying to insert that rock into your brain to pay your bills. Whereas btc is a completely competent internet able currency

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:20:34 2020 No.22855900 >>22855835 Lol, latest with this post you showed you're a low iq fudder. I hope you have your shorts in place anon?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:22:12 2020 No.22855915 >>22855900 k chimp.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:29:48 2020 No.22856001

>>22855876
This is kind of my positioning. Despite i wouldn't want to completely miss out on boomer stocks, at least not yet. DeFi is mostly a meme that could be created because neets lack knowledge in business processes entirely and misjudge usability by far.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:32:34 2020 No.22856036 >>22855713 >people are simply flat out too stupid to handle a monetary system based around cryptocurrency If "stupid" means "to smart to fall for my scam", you are correct

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:34:06 2020 No.22856054

>>22855881
I think you missed the point if you consider my original message as fud. I was just stating how I am currently viewing BTC and gold and was hoping to engage in a conversation about the subject and challenge my own views and bias.

Second I find your message extremely hilarious since you are rooting for "decentralized" internet money while at the same time wanting to get a chip to your brain by the ruling billionaire class. You must be the type of guy that calls Musk, daddy, and keeps saying that "Tesla is not a car company it's a tech company" and the current valuation is fair, if not even undervalued.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:34:44 2020 No.22856064 BTC is not a "store of value" it tanked 60% at some point this year, it has also tanked 15% in last couple of month's. If you think this is acceptable to anyone that's looking for low volality preservation of wealth you are completely delusional.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:35:05 2020 No.22856069

>>22856036
There's nothing fundamentally scammy about the concept of a decentralised peer to peer currency based on proof of work and validating nodes with an underlying hard money unit incentivising the building and maintenance of the system. Given humans not falling for mind numbingly obvious sabotage attempts it would work fine. Unfortunately it seems when it comes to technology people are all too happy to hand the citadel over to the invader on the absolute thinnest of pretexts, and this is apparently a fatal flaw.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:40:23 2020 No.22856129 >>22856069 Have you considered that this kind of incoherent blubbering makes you sound like a retarded faggot?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:41:03 2020 No.22856136 >>22856064 It's still a volatile asset that has been in wider use not even for 5 years. Calling it out to be "no store of value" is against reality.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:41:03 2020 No.22856138 >>22856129 Have you considered hanging yourself?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:44:41 2020 No.22856181 >>22856138 Lol, you're really clamping on a big stick between your asscheeks.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 04:46:48 2020 No.22856201 >>22855213 there was a free market for currency then. you don't need a gold standard to denominate prices in gold, gold standards have no benefit denominate price in gold and allow any currency a seller accepts

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 05:14:18 2020 No.22856480
File: 886 KB, 2027x2616, 88836D5B-9BD7-4984-B2AC-D78778058F30.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22840119
>that’s why Biztards will stay poor.

A labourer would have to work two days for this silver crown back 200 years ago. That ratio will be coming back and then some.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 05:43:11 2020 No.22856766 >>22855071 The mechanism you describe is the reason why there will be no "stop of transaction". The fees will be small accounts of the moved value only, but this fraction alone is sufficient as miner's incentive.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 07:19:36 2020 No.22857775 >>22851548 you don't understand scaling that's okay.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 07:21:51 2020 No.22857802

>>22853240
>Money is much more similar to BTC and gold
no that's total bullshit. money is what you can buy shit with in a store what you get your salary in and what you pay your taxes in. and no countries using a payment provider that immediately market sells your crpyto don't count.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 07:23:03 2020 No.22857812 >>22856480 no it won't

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 07:39:41 2020 No.22857990

>>22857802
>money is what you can buy shit with in a store
Nah, money is all of the above. Gold and BTC aren't widely accepted and therefore miss the mark, but fiat also fails the money test. Fiat is a currency, it's used to transact. There isn't much else left to fiat that makes it money.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 08:01:11 2020 No.22858222 >>22851738 silver is cheap

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 08:03:35 2020 No.22858249

>>22857990
no it literally is the thing you can buy shit with in a store. gold is not money. bitcoin is not money. they could be but they would suck at it. we have fiat because fiat is the best at being money for actual use.
the only problem with fiat aside from inflation which is not a real problem when you have inflation proof assets like bitcoin is the massive rent seeking by financial institutions and the custodial nature of traditional finance.

but gov issued smart contract capable digital fiat will solve that most likely.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 08:05:31 2020 No.22858272

>>22857990
>Fiat is a currency, it's used to transact
read the definitions again! these are the most clear and well rounded definitions for money and currency you will ever find. people confuse this shit and talk bollocks because they refuse to think and put 2 and 2 together.
>money is a currency that is legal tender
>currency is a unit of account and a medium of exchange
>medium of exchange must be portable and durable
>unit of account must be fungible and divisible

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 08:11:10 2020 No.22858353 >>22858272 the historical fact that gold has maintained its value and continued to be used in trade throughout human history is evidence that God's will is that we use gold. Therefore, gold is God's legal tender. God's law supersedes the state.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 08:16:59 2020 No.22858432

>>22858353
that doesn't make gold money at all.
and no inflation adjusted gold sucks ass it lost a great deal of it's purchasing power over time. the reason is we have mined a fucking shitton of it in the modern era and productivity greatly increased so the same goods are nowhere near as time consuming and valuable as they were once. a suit today is a hundred times less labor intensive than a suit a 100 years ago. costs you the same in gold.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 08:18:02 2020 No.22858450 >>22858353 >God's will is that we use gold you just went to a place where i can't follow you with reason

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 08:22:56 2020 No.22858524

>>22858272
also the reason why gold is no longer a currency let alone money, is it sucks at being a medium of exchange. it is durable alright but it's not portable in the modern age compared to digital assets. it's literally a fucking rock in the rocket age.

and so gold is no longer a currency. and good riddance. it is however a speculative asset and a traditional hedge (for now).

bitcoin is definitely a currency. albeit a shit one because it's still too volatile.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 08:30:27 2020 No.22858627 >>22858524 youre just playing word games. constricting the definition of the word money and relaxing the definition of the word rock.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 08:34:51 2020 No.22858693 >>22858432 we have also has a population explosion, but im not sure what your point is. you can still buy a suit with your daddy's gold is my point.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 09:29:16 2020 No.22859547 >>22838451 Are you gonna link the interview wtf OP

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 09:37:41 2020 No.22859677 >>22856766 the problem with that is that it means either fees are insanely high, or we have an insecure network to keep hashpower low enough for reasonable fees

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 09:38:03 2020 No.22859685

>>22858432

the reason is we have mined a fucking shitton of it in the modern era and productivity greatly increased...

False. Inflation-rate of gold continues to be about 1% per annum, in keeping with history. In fact, the complaint made most often nowadays is that all the really great discoveries have already been made.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 09:43:06 2020 No.22859774 >>22856129 >>22856069 There's absolutely nothing incoherent about pBTz8Jvc. Highly intelligent and knowledgeable, and gets exactly to the crux of the matter. Contrariwise, absolutely nothing in your posts but mindless abuse.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 09:54:40 2020 No.22859929

>>22858272
>read the definitions again!
I'm having a disagreement, not an argument. I will not accept the use of language where fiat without backing is "money". It's not durable (debased), it's not exactly fungible (uneven between classes), is not portable (between nations without approvals).

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 09:55:27 2020 No.22859941

>>22855287

When you keep gold in a vault, you are immune to everything in my list of concerns. >>22842203 If you get memory-loss or dementia, you still have your gold; you haven't lost any keys. It's still right there in that Swiss vault. Again, if you make a wrongful transaction with a service like GoldMoney, it can be reversed; not so with crypto; if you put in the wrong receiver in a fit of absent-mindedness, you can lose everything. Again, somebody can't lock you up and torture you for your offshore bullion the way they can for your keys; at any rate, it's a thousand times more quick and easy to torture somebody for their crypto keys than for offshore bullion, and get away with the crime too. Theft from reputable private vaults (as I say in another post) are vanishingly rare, "crimes of the century." Vaults are built so as to be immune to natural disaster, but the house where you keep your keys can burn down at any time. Finally, nothing is ever going to replace gold; we have 5,000 years of history to prove that.

>>22858249

Fiat isn't money, it's currency. Can't be money if it isn't a store of value. Precious metals are the only things which both demonstrably store value over long periods of time, and can be used as a medium of exchange (whether in real life or, even more effectively, with allocated digital services like Kinesis). Bitcoin, contrariwise, is an absolute disaster which is on the brink of collapse. It is unusable as a currency; and far from being a store of value, it is nothing but speculation on other people's ignorance and idiocy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 10:10:06 2020 No.22860185 >>22859941 >Bitcoin, contrariwise, is an absolute disaster which is on the brink of collapse >tfw If bitcoin makes it to the other side of this brink, will you invest? I know I will increase my holding back to some of it's older levels

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 10:16:30 2020 No.22860292

>>22860185

I sincerely believe that BTC will be nothing but a novelty item soon, like 100-trillion-dollar Zimbabwe notes. People rushed out of it at lightning speed when they thought the system was going to collapse in March; it wasn't a safe haven. Went all the way down to $3000 in moments. Tether fraud is propping BTC up. If the USD collapses then BTC really has nowhere to go. Gold will take over as the de facto world reserve currency, and governments will accept nothing else in exchange for their valuable goods and services. It will be considered insane to trade even a gram of gold for Satoshi's entire stash.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 10:21:06 2020 No.22860368

Marxist here.

Besides the fact that money should not exist and it enslaved humanity. I can give you my PoV

Gold has value because there is human work behind it. That's why they used it in first place
For exemple :
50 hours of human work = 20 bananas = 10 pears = 1gr of gold (mining time)
By this meaning gold became the first money with silver.

On the other hand, you have Bitcoin which does not require human work, but PC mining. Therefore you have creation of value without any human work, so it is just speculation.
(Machines do not create value, and that's why our world is crashing today, "Tendency of the rate of profit to fall", read Marx)

But the goal is not to know if Bitcoin has a place to be a store of value (because it is obviously not)
The goal is to see if the capitalism will once again cuck the humanity by proposing it as a store of value, and the pleb accepting it.

So first thing is when the economic crisis will strike, is to refute any form of monetary system and governement > fight for freedom.
If you don't, then you are just against the humanity, nature and the earth. You are just here to live a fake life given by the capital which is to do profit ad vitam æternam

If capitalism is too strong and people are not ready to open their eyes, then i think going 80% PM and 20% BTC/ETH is probably the best way.

Cya friends sorry for bad englendo

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 10:37:02 2020 No.22860637
File: 55 KB, 618x494, 1586044063659.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>22860368

Bitcoin is a success, it give people the power to have their own money / currency, this gonna give only 2 choices :
> Only one money will survive, the Bitcoin and will rule other the world.
or
> They gonna have so much different currency, that at the end the currency word will lose his meaning and no one will need them anymore.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 10:40:33 2020 No.22860708 >>22838451 Gold, if you dig a deep hole you can still find out some, but with bitcoin unless we have an infinite emission like monero, the number of Bitcoin is limited at 21 000 000 000 000 atomic unit (satoshis).

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 11:10:04 2020 No.22861289 >>22860368 Based Marx, save us all

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 11:13:20 2020 No.22861358 File: 33 KB, 303x298, CD1C73F3-6BF0-4A81-B96F-82B46DB53BB2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>22860368 >Marxist here Shut the fuck up moron, in the first second of your post you have already proven yourself to be a fool

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 11:53:05 2020 No.22862114

>>22861358
One guy trying to explain something about a legend who dedicated is life on explaining the capital and then a random cuck coming to insult without any argument.

It's like justin bieber calling einstein a moron when talking about the theory of relativity, and that he knows better than him.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 11:55:29 2020 No.22862157 >>22860368 If you actually believe in the labor theory of value you are retarded

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 12:03:50 2020 No.22862329 >>22860368 Marx called for the end of the “money-worshipping” Jew. About the only thing I think he’s right on.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 27 12:07:19 2020 No.22862407 >>22852623 No. If you're over balanced in gold just trade your paper for silver until your desired balance is achieved

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 12:11:41 2020 No.22862490

>>22858693
yes but that suit is cheap mass produced shit compared to the nice custom made i could have bought with it back in the days. gold is crap store of value. bitcoin is the best fucking store of value in the past decade. there is no reason this trend will break so soon.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 12:13:07 2020 No.22862523

>>22859685
>Inflation-rate of gold continues to be about 1% per annum
bollocks
>I will not accept the use of language where fiat without backing is "money"
so you are ready to disagree with 99.99% of humanity on the meaning of a word? that's not autistic that's willfully retarded.

Anonymous Sun Sep 27 12:16:23 2020 No.22862593

>>22860368
>Machines do not create value
rofl machines are leverage for human labor. somewhere in the line human labor was put in to those machines to increase productivity instead of doing everything by hand.
don't be an idiot!

to say a forklift doesn't produce value only the forklift operator does is ignoring the fact that without a forklift he could only move 100th of the weight an hour or less.

>>	etetate Thu Oct 1 11:23:21 2020 No.22862593,1 This is pretty interesting. How do you feel about home design?

>>	home design ummo Thu Oct 1 11:24:33 2020 No.22862593,2 I haven't bought a house yet

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