/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.12826391]

UBI will never work, for a simple reason: female hypergamy.

[Anonymous No.12826402]

>>12826391
What a great, extensive and well thought out post. Who said /pol/ is on the decline?

[Anonymous No.12826416]

>>12826402
I'll let you use your own brain and think of the implications and consequences.

[Anonymous No.12826468]

>>12826391
There are tons of reasons why it wouldn’t work but you, being the incel that you are, decided to focus on “muh femoids”

[Anonymous No.12826495]

dude imagine how comfy it would be to have housewives/housegfs again. working maybe part time at most or just doing some charity work

I'm all for UBI. Women get subsidized anyway. At least this way it's comfy. Also if you break up with them and kick them out, you know they have some income so its whatever.

[Anonymous No.12826503]

Most women, even most autistic women, LOVE to nest. And men love having a home that is probably given the nesting treatment. That really feels like a home. UBI is great. Finally.

[Anonymous No.12826508]

>>12826391
ubi will work if we implement the following:

sharia law
repatriating non-natives
zero immigration or near zero immigration
sterilizing people with an iq < 120

[Anonymous No.12826524]

>>12826508
>sterilizing everyone
>Population of next generation reduced to 0
>No more human suffering

[Anonymous No.12826528]

>>12826508
And then there is still the side question left....who and how will you finance that shitty utopia idea?

[Anonymous No.12826532]

>>12826528
automated robot economy run and managed by 120iq+ engineers, scientists and inventors

[Anonymous No.12826541]

>>12826508

based

[Anonymous No.12826596]

>>12826391
If the U.S. were to distribute $1000/mo, it would cost about $256 billion dollars..every month.

[Anonymous No.12826616]

>>12826391
so literally nothing will change then

[Anonymous No.12826626]

how the fuck would this work when all the sudden you give every homeless person 1000$/mo to do whatever with. rent would go even higher in populated areas, and cost of living too. this is direct inflation

[Anonymous No.12826644]

>>12826508
If anything I see us going in an opposite direction:
-transwomen at ATH, women's value further reduced
-damage already done, there will be a wall but half the country is already mutt, non-native means nothing if they share a different home culture from you
-zero immigration subverted by H1B visas and rich foreigners buying property
-only sterilization will be high IQ people doing it voluntarily (Reddit crowd, anti-natalism). This is by design to get low IQs to reproduce more. Outlawing abortion will be done despite outcry to breed more low IQ slaves.

[Anonymous No.12826693]

>>12826626
it's fine they'll just spend it on drugs.
legalize all drugs and then all the money goes back to govt. while the party in charge keeps up the facade that they care for the lower portion of society, therefore more votes from lefties, therefore more power

[Anonymous No.12826698]

>>12826532
Why would they not defect against the mindless sheep they despise?

[Anonymous No.12826699]

[Anonymous No.12826762]

>>12826698
who? the robots?

[Anonymous No.12826906]

>>12826596
And the cost of living would go up by... $1000/mo

[Anonymous No.12826935]

>>12826699
Who the fuck cares? This is [regulated] capitalism combined with random socialism.

They can even hoard 1.000 Trillion and nobody should mind at all. We can go try communism too if you prefer it.

[Anonymous No.12827425]

>>12826508
You don't deal with the JQ.

B+ good start

[Anonymous No.12827899]

>>12826699
Why aren't they putting a little bit of it into crypto?
1% of their holdings is $320B, imagine the bull run coming from there.

[Anonymous No.12828072]

>>12826644
>reddit is high IQ

Lol

[Anonymous No.12828449]

UBI for women only

[Anonymous No.12828523]

>>12826495
Where is the magic ubi money going to come from?

[Anonymous No.12828553]

>>12828523
>>12826699

[Anonymous No.12828607]

>>12828449
I'm for this. It will allow women to stop looking for jobs in male sectors. That way they can only focus on finding a husband. In reality, this allows them to whore out even more. I think I'm going to short this.Thanks for the insider info.

[Anonymous No.12828631]

>>12828553
So... theft?
Not even commenting on the fact that "distributing wealth" is the dumbest goal ever, distributing wealth=destroying wealth, if you can't see this is because you don't generate any.
Not a single one of you 115 IQ commies think past step 1

[Anonymous No.12828637]

>>12826391
Norway is doing well.

[Anonymous No.12828653]

Actually OP is completely correct and it’s really a deep point that he’s making that goes over most idiots heads itt

If everyone has equal wealth then all that does is skew sexual inequality in favor of lazy chads.

For socialism to work without a mass civil war or unrest, you’d need sexual socialism as well

[Anonymous No.12828655]

>>12828523
>MFW anon doesn't realize that the military complex steals his hard earn money to pay for stupid shit like parked tanks, expensive jets that don't work, trial and error weapons, military funerals.

The "magic money" comes from the people's tax dollars you fucking dolt. You can't be this stupid?

[Anonymous No.12828679]

>>12826644
If you sterilize yourself you're not high IQ. You're smart enough to think overpopulation is a problem but too much of a dumb nigger to realize your lack of kids will be replaced by importing kids from Africa and sending more food there to have more Africans made, with your tax dollars. You wont make less people, at all, but your line still dies off. It's a 103 IQ idea from city retards.

[Anonymous No.12828693]

>>12826391
actually it will help stop hypergamy because once everyone is gauranteed an income we will be free to enjoy life and do the things we want to do instead of toiling for a wage. It will also stimulate the fuck out of the economy by putting more money in peoples pockets.

[Anonymous No.12828711]

>>12828653
this

>live in a shared apartment with no females
>everybody friendly unless you do completely stupid shit
>female moves in
>cutthroat competition begins

[Anonymous No.12828712]

UBI is one of the worst ideas ever.
Even with incoming job losses due to automation, UBI is still a huge mistake.

[Anonymous No.12828740]

>>12828712
Andrew Yang is a dumbass. As much as he's done well for himself, socialism doesn't work in America. It leads to too much government power. We need to dispose of the federal reserve system.

[Anonymous No.12828741]

>>12828655
1k per person costs 4 trillion dollars in the USA. How are you going to take away 4 trillion dollars from the people to give 4 trillion dollars to the people, while incentivizing so many people to stop working?

[Anonymous No.12828782]

>>12826391
If women don't need men for their resources and the state provides them, then birth rate plummets and society collapses unless we let Pablo and Mohammad in.

[Anonymous No.12828792]

>>12828782
Pablo is already here. and he's outbreeding you now as we speak.

[Anonymous No.12828796]

>>12828740
We need to unleash entrepreneurs. Regulation prevents people from creating their own jobs. Licensing costs for cabs, barbers etc really hinders individuals.

Getting rid of the fed reserve would help but its unrealistic

[Anonymous No.12828806]

>>12828782
Exactly. Also UBI will become a political football. Women will just demand more money than men because babies and wage gap bullshit

[Anonymous No.12828813]

>>12828792
That's because women already aren't reliant on men due to quotas and affirmative action. That's why were bringing in all these foreign people.

[Anonymous No.12828818]

>>12826391
UBI will never work because a government is in charge of implementing it. It will neither be universal nor basic

[Anonymous No.12828830]

>>12828813
True

[Anonymous No.12828853]

>>12828813
yes. it's a matriarchy and men are finally waking up to. might be too little too late now though. white women won't notice anything is wrong until they start getting replaced by latinas in the workplace and as latinos start to take over the government their roles there will be taken away as well. eventually they will be removed from their positions of authority but white america will be long dead by then.

[Anonymous No.12828868]

>>12828853
Intersectionality will destroy itself.
White bitches already see themselves getting replaced in their SJW non-profits it will happen in the corporate world, too.

[Anonymous No.12828872]

Imagine, a place where no one goes hungry, where everyone has a place to sleep, access to medical care, and enough time to pursue creative goals. This place already exists

It's called prison

[Anonymous No.12828889]

>>12828868
yep. because at the end of the day. they may have vaginas but they still have that pesky white skin that just wont blend in.

[Anonymous No.12828916]

>>12826495
I don't know what you're talking about.
You think that if everybody has UBI that women will become house wives? They'll just drop all the shit they've been doing to get huge social and government advantages over men? That they won't continue with their shit now that they have more free time to fuck everything up?

What does that idiotic fantasy have to do with female hypergamy? Guys currently earning more money will now be on par with the dudes currently earning peanuts. Raising the bar from a female perspective just puts more men on the bottom rung and therefore completely undesirable. This inevitably means more whining about not finding "good" men and even more angry feminazi cat-ladies running about demanding more and more handouts and special treatment while demonizing and dehumanizing men.

[Anonymous No.12828917]

>>12828523
>cut all social programs
>give flat UBI
>no more excuses for failing and no more abuse of food stamps/welfare.

[Anonymous No.12828923]

>>12828523
Where is the magic ubi money going to come from?
This is such a meme question and its getting tiresome. We can always ask back that: in current welfare states how do they pay for free schooling, grants, pensions, benefits etc?

Dude Im a full free market capitalist, yet even I see that UBI (which is a shitty placeholder name) is preferable in the short-run and inevitable in the long-run. The first and most important postulate is that the current welfare state is really inefficient. It has a lot of different types of benefits as opposed to having a single lean transfer like UBI. Its true in this case as well that the sum of the part is more (costlier) than the single UBI. Why? Cause you have to pay for more bureaucrats, more paperwork, more IT systems, more rent and overheads for offices, etc... The second postulate is that UBI does not equal with a full time salary. If anything, in the beginning it should be a measly sum of money. Nobody wants to destroy meaningful jobs, we just understand that labor supply is increasing whereas the value of labor is eroding, and less and less people are required to do manual jobs (and even white collar jobs due to tech advance). And lastly, as an efficient UBI wouldn't only reduce the state, but it should also encourage responsibility and self-support. Financial institutions should deploy new services, where they handle your UBI for purposes like pension, insurance, investment, etc. No one says it should be an X dollar/month to your hand, but it should be an X dollar/month transfer, that you can choose to spend immediately, or reinvest. Its way more complicated a matter than muh socialism... I have socialism and commies, but a strong free market economy can go a long way in creating a stable society.

[Anonymous No.12828928]

>>12828917
this

[Anonymous No.12828965]

WHY THE FUCK DO YOU GUYS THINK THE RICH WILL ACTUALLY LET YOU STEAL THEIR MONEY AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR? IT'S GOING TO BE THE MIDDLE CLASS THAT'S GOING TO PAY FOR THIS SHIT, THE RICH WILL RUN OFF.

[Anonymous No.12828990]

IT WILL WORK THIS TIME TRUST ME

[Anonymous No.12829010]

>>12828916
They only way for a few people to have more than everyone is if they take if from someone else. Everything in this system is theft. When you get a job someone else has to do without a job. When you make $100k per year someone else has to make $10k per year. When you buy a mansion someone else has to live in a cuck shed. That's how capitalism works. There are not infinite opportunities in this system. And this system does NOT reward you based on skill or ability anymore. call it not true capitalism. call it socialism. call it whatever you want. but that fact is it's a system of slavery for most.

[Anonymous No.12829047]

>>12829010
>Economy is a zero sum game
Your brain on communism

[Anonymous No.12829058]

>>12826391

No its because neckbeards like yourselves will milk it dry. Stop blaming your problems on women.

[Anonymous No.12829071]

>>12829047
its is. but you can't convince capitalists of this fact. do you actually believe the government and corporations magically create jobs for everyone and those that are left without are somehow just "lazy"?

No. you go to school. you graduate. And then you are cast into the ever dwindling pool of opportunities with everyone else while the owner classes sit back and watch you gut stab and shoot each other for your little piece of the crumbs.

[Anonymous No.12829085]

>>12829071
>its is. but you can't convince capitalists of this fact
you're a retard bent on not learning anything new so you don't have to change your mind
the economy is by no means a zero sum game, find out why by yourself

[Anonymous No.12829087]

>>12826391
>LETS PAY EVEYONE A BAGILLION DOLLARS

[Anonymous No.12829092]

>>12829071
>Economy is zero sum

This is so unfathomably stupid that it defies the normal amount of stupid that humans posses. You must drink from the well of stupidity that all beings draw from in order to be this stupid. How do people get richer over time if The economy is zero sum? We'd still be smacking each other with clubs and grunting all day if the economy could never get larger

[Anonymous No.12829106]

>>12829085
>>12829092
To anyone reading. Notice how both of these posts fail to explain why the economy is not a zero sum game. but instead just hurl insults. "your stupid" "your lazy" same old tired arguments over and over and over again.

[Anonymous No.12829130]

>>12829106
Zero-Sum Game
Definition: A game where gains in the possession of one player is counter balanced by losses in another player
Counter-Example: The economy grows at 3% a year. We aren't caveman hurling rocks at trees. Poverty is dropping all over the world. There isn't a fixed amount of wealth in the world. The economy grows at 3-5% a year
Conclusion:
You are retarded

[Anonymous No.12829143]

>>12829130
yes everyone can flip burgers at McDonalds now so everyone is lifted out of poverty. temporarily embarrased millionaires.

[Anonymous No.12829156]

>>12829143
What?

[Anonymous No.12829161]

>>12828711
So long as there are humans, There will always be inequality and war. Trying to bottle humanity into anything else isn’t just retarded, it’s evil. Men will always want more power and women and women will always choose the highest status genetically superior males

[Anonymous No.12829168]

>>12829143
I'd rather flip burgers at McDonalds than be a peasant in some gulag tearing out canals with my bare hands. Eat shit you troglodyte sub-evolved ape

[Anonymous No.12829188]

>>12829168
gulags are were we put the borgeois generational gas lighters like yourself. everything that comes out of your fucking mouth is a falsehood. Just like now you are trying to claim that communism is where everyone go to a forced labor camp. your either retarded as fuck or a paid gov shill.

[Anonymous No.12829196]

>>12829188
You know what's funny? Many of the revolutionaries who fought were put in the Gulags themselves. You think you're going to be the Grand Commissar of the department of labor management? kek, you'll know too much. You'll be too dangerous. The grand leader will toss you in a ditch after shooting you in the head. Delusional

[Anonymous No.12829205]

>>12829143
so your response to
>>12829130
is to hurl insults?
the economy is not a zero sum game, poverty is declining and wealth grows, how is it possible?
if I buy wood for $10 and make a chair, then sell the chair for $20, who lost $10 so I could gain?
Keep in mind that a chair is more valuable than wood, to the person buying it, so he's not losing money.

[Anonymous No.12829212]

>>12829188
>there are people that actually believe this

[Anonymous No.12829213]

>>12828923
>you have to do what I say because its preferable and inevitable
The most Jewish fake reasoning, EU and UN use this for every dumb fucking idea.

[Anonymous No.12829215]

>>12826508
I literally agree with every point on that list.

[Anonymous No.12829218]

>>12829212
>there were called useful idiots

[Anonymous No.12829220]

>>12829196
been listening to that CIA shill Yuri Bezmenov have we? LOL. The CIA told his ass to play ball or be sent back to Russia to face the consequences of his treasonous acts.

[Anonymous No.12829237]

>>12826391
WHY THE FUCK "UNIVERSAL"? SO STUPID.

CONDITIONAL BASIC INCOME. CONDITIONAL. MEANING, ONLY UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS, LIKE HAVING AN INCOME UNDER $100,000. NO ONE OVER $100,000 NEEDS $1000 MORE.

[Anonymous No.12829242]

>>12829220
You'd have a point 30 years ago but we can all clearly see everything he said DECADES AGO has come true.

[Anonymous No.12829254]

>>12829220
You can still come to the light of capitalism. There is much wealth to be made and you can have it. Communism only offers death.

[Anonymous No.12829266]

>>12829242
Soviet union has been dead for almost 30 years now. What you are seeing with multiculturalism and SJW's is actually the mossad. you are under the yoke of israel now.

[Anonymous No.12829281]

>>12828653
that's fine by me if it means forcing dumb roastie sluts into regular monogamy. it's not fine if it means free prostitutes via "health-care" as some retards suggest it. in that case, you could pay with your UBI for your shallow, unsatisfying whore sex. or you could buy a generic, faceless sex robot. otherwise you and your dumb roasties can go fuck yourselves.

[Anonymous No.12829298]

>>12829237
this. they need to get rid of universial. but make no mistake about it. THIS IS SOCIALISM. but they can't just come right out and say it's socialism because the CIA has convinced even the poorest american living in a cardboard box that socialism is bad. they own the media and control your opnions. your fucked.

[Anonymous No.12829519]

>>12826391
>Less people getting married and having children than ever
>Exploding depression rates caused by purposelessness
>Unlimited government/corporate power wrought from people finally swallowing the socialism-pill
>Community life destroyed
>People spend even more money on pointless shit that they don't need that makes their lives worse and destroys the planet
>Universities/corporations/government all work together to suppress any non-retarded critiques of them, remove any semblance of a hopeful future, and perpetuate propaganda that has already been made for them by the people
>People are WILLINGLY submitting to the technocult so that they can play more videogames and post more shit on their phones
>Any Modern discourse instantly turns into bad-faith arguments, claiming that the other side is stupid/misinformed/fake/dead, LE MEMES, or is shut down
>Public 'intellectuals' want nothing but the literal worst imaginable future for humanity (Sam Harris, Neil Tyson, Steven Hawking, Bill Nye) and his retarded 110-120 IQ fans eat it up like hotcakes
>Welfare with a fancy sticker (UBI) is now seen as something 'cool' and 'trendy' and 'the way of the future, man!'
>NPC chink is unironically getting retards to vote for him by paying them $1,000/month
Nu-civilization is finally going to kill itself and it only took 2 centuries. Pathetic.

I'm going to do my best to rob this shithole for all that it's worth and get the fuck out of here.

[Anonymous No.12829783]

>>12828523
Shorting crypto

[Anonymous No.12829874]

>>12829519
>He thinks America is socialist
>He's completely unaware that "socialist' Europe is way happier than America according to all the data

Maybe stop being a dumb brainwashed right wing cunt and actually do some research so you don't look like a complete fucking idiot?

[Anonymous No.12829899]

>>12829874
>"socialist' Europe is way happier than America according to all the data
Oh yeah I’m sure Al Haziz and his freedom fighters are very happy leeching off the welfare state LMAO

[Anonymous No.12829906]

UBI can't work because poor people are retards and would blow the money they should have spent on food and rent on hookers and drugs and electronics.

[Anonymous No.12829912]

>>12826391
UBI got 99 problems, but a bitch ain't one

[Anonymous No.12829929]

>>12828631
Has the thought ever passed through your tiny brain that the people living on the lowest rung of the financial ladder don't give a shit about destroying wealth because they have none? Also, more and more people are being thrown down a rung as the rich get richer so yeah I don't give a fuck about destroying wealth...

[Anonymous No.12830048]

>>12829929
Wealth just amplifies your personality. Bad people are going to be bad whether or not they have wealth. Many people who became successful still engage in criminal activities. If you don't give a shit about other people when you're poor, you won't give a shit about other people when you're rich.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12830052]

>>12826391
>UBI will never work, for a simple reason: female hypergamy.
nah, sex got nothing to do with the economics of ubi.
ubi will not work because it sets a new baseline above zero. which will result in all wages raising significantly which will result in inflation which will result in raising the ubi and so on.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12830237]

but... here is the deal. imagine a world where only 20% of the population produces any value, and 80% only consumes!

now that 20% could earn so much that the ubi actually doesn't really impact their lifestyle. in fact it could function kinda like a universal tax exempt meaning slightly higher taxes offset to the median wage by ubi. which basically mean kind of a progressive taxation even with a flat rate. simple as fuck.

so these people that produce usually make 4-5 times of ubi while the rest only gets the 1x. this would ensure that employment is still very much sought and there is a competition for the jobs but also that the working population is so small that their commutative earnings do not disrupt the total money supply.

this woudln't change much overall, people would still do side hustles to cover their extra spending probably you would get some extra benefits from military service and community work stints, they would still try to do business, few would be in employment.

it would make the remaining "workers" upper class citizen and all the rest basically poorfags.

all this needs is sufficient levels of automation removing the need for menial jobs on a large scale.

[Anonymous No.12830270]

>>12829874
>America has welfare, social security, public utilities, Medicare, Medicaid, a less-free market than most of Western Europe, public utilities, public schools, etc. but it's not socialist/no more socialist than Europe
lol
>If you're not a socialist then you're a capitalist/fascist
nope
>right-wing
Define this.
>HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY
If I sit you in a chair and inject you with dopamine for the rest of your life so that you never feel depression, anxiety, or pain, would you take it? Are you an unironic utilitarian? Should we just breed people to be 'happy' with their garbage conditions?
>Studies on happiness
The UN one is garbage btw. This one is better. http://happyplanetindex.org/countries
Mexico and Columbia are top 3.
>Research
On what? Literally everything?
>I'm smart and know what's going on
I guarantee you don't and I guarantee that I'm much smarter than you are.

[None !l0sVXKXaJ2 No.12830401]

>>12830270
>>Studies on happiness
nigger what you linked is not about human happiness
happy _planet_ got it?

[Anonymous No.12830445]

>>12828741
>while incentivizing so many people to stop working?

You do no boomers and rich people stop working right? That's why it's called retirement. You stop working.

Hmmmm. let us ask the most socialist program that the USA has put into place. SocialSecurity.

[Anonymous No.12830453]

>>12829874
Also, here's a really good one. There are 10+ counties happier than any in Europe and they're all shit (Malawi, Costa Rica, Trinidad and Tobago, Paraguay, Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Niger, Mali, etc.) based on their daily experience of happiness.
https://news.gallup.com/file/poll/126965/GlobalWellbeing_Rpt_POLL_0310_lowres.pdf

[Anonymous No.12830465]

>>12828872
>He thinks prison is the solution.

Looks like someone never went to prison. You just believe what Hollywood shows you, huh?

[Anonymous No.12830520]

>>12829106
The variable value of labor is one of many factors demonstrating that the economy is not zero sum.

[Anonymous No.12830540]

>>12830445

>You do no boomers and rich people stop working right? That's why it's called retirement. You stop working.

[Anonymous No.12830544]

>>12829254
>Communism only offers death.

So does capitalism. Capitalism kills the individual physically and psychologically.

[Anonymous No.12830545]

>>12830401
It's a meta analysis, faggot. Look at their 'about' section to see how they calculated things.

(self-reported happiness)x(life-expectancy)x(inverse of variance of outcomes to get a more accurate picture)/(resources required to be at that level)

If you don't like that sustainability, variance, and life expectancy are taken into account, see
>>12830453

Also, I don't idolize happiness like you fucking brainlets do. Yes, happiness is important. No, it is not the end-all/be-all.

[Anonymous No.12830557]

I want to smell a woman's asshole.

[Anonymous No.12830562]

>>12830540
>Warrent Buffett
>Barely has to lift a finger
>Has other people work for him
>anon think that is work.

Fuck, you're lazy anon.

[Anonymous No.12830580]

>>12830557
It's overrated. Only pleasant if you are insanely horny and she is washed. Do not recommend rimming either. The first time you feel the tip of a turd with your tongue its all over for good.

[Anonymous No.12830607]

>>12830540
>Anon also thinks Warren Buffett represents all the old people.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12830647]

>>12830545
i looked at that too it's garbage. i usually ccheck a few things like russia vs east europe vs west europe. anyone claiming you get more happiness in russia which is basically purgatory on fucking earth than in any european country is a fucking liar.

[Anonymous No.12830648]

>>12830607

Not all old people but most really rich people. You think you get to billionaire status doing something you hate everyday? Really? Almost all of them keep working even though they could easily retire after the first 10 mil they make.

[Anonymous No.12830740]

>>12830647
Russia is a 7.0 on the index. That's on the same level as Mongolia, Madagascar, Cameroon, Bolivia, and Morocco. If that's hard to believe for you, you need to go take a walk outside and think about things. Your post makes no sense.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12830754]

>>12830740
if it ddoesn't make sense to you try growing a braincell!

[Anonymous No.12830765]

ITT jealous wagies defend their right to buy their boss another house

[Anonymous No.12830782]

>>12830754
Where, are you from, man?

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12830996]

>>12830782
hungary, been to a few countries around including germany. i can tell you for example slovenia is miles better than hungary in every regard including overall leisure and happiness. and hungary is still a decent country compared to a hellhole like russia. bulgaria and romania is pretty bleak shit for the most part but still better than russia.

[Anonymous No.12831553]

>>12830052
A commonly cited argument that inflation would eat UBI but this is as stupid as saying student's grants would raise the price of pencils to no end.

The truth is: we don't know. Society and economy is a dynamic system. There can be reasons and conditions (depending on implementation, country, year, etc) that causes an increase in the inflation, but certain others can decrease it as well, and eventually the result can be... anything.

UBI is a placeholder name and just an approximation (so not even a definition or exact ruleset) for an economy that uses ideas like the "national dividend". It also tries to get an answer to the changing technological stage and demographic status of advanced countries.

What alternatives do we have? Should we wait until unemployment reaches 50% due to automation and masses will riot and starve?

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12831656]

>>12831553
>A commonly cited argument that inflation would eat UBI but this is as stupid as saying student's grants would raise the price of pencils to no end.
no it's not the same, but if you look at what easily accessible student loans did to the cost of education over the years in the us, you get the idea.
>There can be reasons and conditions
actually then it's not ubi. ubi is unconditional this is necessary to keep the bureaucracy surrounding it minimal.

ubi is impossible as things are now, right now 80% of adults in their prime is in employment and only 20% are net consumers. this has to turn around otherwise ubi is not sustainable.

[Anonymous No.12831754]

>>12830237
startrek wen?

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12831841]

>>12831754
i have actually calculated if the state gave every citizen 60k huf (something you can live by especially if you look at families or small communes) ubi it would cost 16% of the gdp while current social expenditure is 23.4%, so it's not like you can't even contemplate this shit. you could probably save a lot on the decreased bureaucracy and simplified tax system.

it's very interesting not many people see how expensive a social safety net is with all the paperwork involved. i have to add that this is more benefit than most people unable to work currently get but less than what the average pensioner gets. obviously pensions would be replaced by ubi pretty much. so i think a very nice equilibrium could be reached technically so the "who would pay for it?" is not the question. more like the "who would still work and for how much?"

[Anonymous No.12831916]

>>12831656
>no it's not the same, but if you look at what easily accessible student loans did to the cost of education over the years in the us, you get the idea.
It's the same in the way that you are expecting the outcome of a certain action to be 100% sure, whereas in economics (and most natural sciences) there are always several different factors in play.

>actually then it's not ubi. ubi is unconditional this is necessary to keep the bureaucracy surrounding it minimal.
But why tho? Universal as in every citizen gets it, but its weighted by age and health status. For instance child benefits would be transfers inaccessible by children below 18, and pensions also automatically be merged along with all benefits into UBI. Bureaucracy can still be minimal as you need just one mainframe, one software, one central state institute that calculates, redistributes etc...

>ubi is impossible as things are now, right now 80% of adults in their prime is in employment and only 20% are net consumers. this has to turn around otherwise ubi is not sustainable.
I'm inclined to agree with this, especially in the US. When I'm considering the application of UBI-esque system its always for Western Europe in my head. I think we will see many bloodshed in the future, cause most places will collapse economically sooner than being able to implement this change

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12831932]

>>12831841
let's say you implement a flat 40% tax rate (this is lower than total tax burden currently), and abolish all other taxes and fees...
the lowest income would have negative or zero taxes (this is near zero as is now btw) and the richer would have a hefty 40% tax where ubi would barely matter) average people (in the middle class) make around 300-400k if they pay 40% but get back 100k fix their effective tax rate is roughly 0.1% to 15% while a well earning person would pay 30% and upwards.

it looks to me the entire system could easily work and provide all the right kinds of incentives about starting families and working while providing a nice stable sustainable and safe fallback. it would also not humiliate those that can't work for various reasons.

really the only concern is what happens to prices and wages you both fuck with peoples ability to purchase (you increase spending power without increasing productivity) and what their time is worth compared to doing fuck all (the baseline). if the gdp falls while people consume more which seems like an oxymoron but who knows then it gets fucked.

[Anonymous No.12831959]

>>12826699
Yeah, they do that because they know you degenerate cretins want to seize it and redistribute it as gibs.

[Anonymous No.12831964]

>>12829130
> The economy grows at 3-5% a year
That's remarkably similar to the rate of inflation, isn't it?

[Anonymous No.12831977]

>>12831841
Finally we are agreeing on it, btw im hun too kek

>so the "who would pay for it?" is not the question. more like the "who would still work and for how much?"
This also not the question. This will also find the equilibrium naturally. UBI can also be considered as an abstract payment for people to "just not get in my way when I'm working". Currently I'm working in an SSC, Budapest is full of it. If you are familiar with these offices then you know that the actual efficiency of the workforce must be around 34% and I'm not joking... And we still have this preconceptions that we have to work 8 hours (or even more) and so on. So what I'm pointing at, that UBI might make society more transparent buy not having to do "pretend work" as well as enabling people to do what they want (which coincidentally may increase their efficiency). Standard working hours should also be reduced to 6, cause the overall negative externalities are a serious drain on the economy (think about all the stress related diseases and healthcare costs). All in all, just as current capitalism made the advanced countries a better place to live, so should it evolve the current system to be more humanist.

[Anonymous No.12831978]

fuck commies i dont want to live in a prison society fuck you all to hell

[Anonymous No.12831997]

>>12830648

Warren Buffett Represents himself. That's it. There is only 3 billionaires, buddy.

[Anonymous No.12832023]

Universal basic income is a wonderful thing to have happen in others countries.
Especially since such countries tend to be jew-controlled, there is no tariff, so you can sell anything you want to the retarded masses and extract as much money as you can before the inevitable collapse and rampant cannibalism.

Anyone that is against universal basic income is against free money.
Remember, they're not people, they're cattle for you to milk.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832063]

>>12831977
>This will also find the equilibrium naturally.
that only assumes the productivity is not affected negatively by this shift. and that is a big fucking if. meanwhile i stand by inflationary pressure if you increase the well being of a country you increase the spending power unless you increase the availability of goods they get more expensive. this is basic econ. ubi hinges on productivity going radically up by automation.

[Anonymous No.12832115]

>>12831932
>really the only concern is what happens to prices and wages you both fuck with peoples ability to purchase (you increase spending power without increasing productivity) and what their time is worth compared to doing fuck all (the baseline).
In the short run it might be true that we don't increase productivity along with spending power, but imho it will catch up quickly. Again, this is the harder part to see cause its way more obscure, but by freeing up a lot of people from wagecuck jobs (farther future) they may be more independent and start freelancing, community building, something which has really been disintegrated in the past decades. All these positive externalities eventually can outperform all current economical concerns regarding inflation effects on prices.

[Anonymous No.12832128]

>>12831656
>no it's not the same, but if you look at what easily accessible student loans did to the cost of education over the years in the us, you get the idea.

This. It's the same shit but instead of healthcare and education specifically it's for every single good and service.

The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, all they're going to know that EVERYONE is walking around with $2,000 a month they received "gratis" from the government and they will price their goods and services accordingly and that's in no small part because it's coming out of their bottom line-if they'll even have one by that point-just like the deans of admissions at U.S.colleges have been doing over the decades but multiplied thousandfold as it will apply for every single business that exists.

I don't know why the fuck these people are called progressives when their ideas for how economics works are entirely dependent on a market that stays in stasis forever.

>all this hungarianposting, on my /biz/

smelly, dumb, magyar scum

[Anonymous No.12832136]

>>12831997

[Anonymous No.12832153]

>>12828917
This seems like a flawless plan. I've thought about it for a minute and can't find any real problems.

[Anonymous No.12832189]

>>12832063
>that only assumes the productivity is not affected negatively by this shift. and that is a big fucking if.
In the beginning it should be too small of an amount (for any age group) to be of any significance. You have also stated that if we were to convert the already existing welfare system we wouldn't even have to raise taxes. What we also forget to differentiate in these debates (but its really important) that there is a difference between the starting UBI, and the far-future UBI. Thus for starters, we are just reforming the system to be leaner, and not necessary talking about a grand 80% reduction in workforce.

>meanwhile i stand by inflationary pressure if you increase the well being of a country you increase the spending power unless you increase the availability of goods they get more expensive.
But if you just making the social net more efficient (which is the starter goal) then it shouldn't necessary drive such pressure, especially in small countries like here in Europe.

>this is basic econ. ubi hinges on productivity going radically up by automation.
And this if for the farther future (15-20 years).

[Anonymous No.12832244]

>>12832128
>The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, all they're going to know that EVERYONE is walking around with $2,000 a month they received "gratis" from the government and they will price their goods and services accordingly and that's in no small part because it's coming out of their bottom line-if they'll even have one by that point-just like the deans of admissions at U.S.colleges have been doing over the decades but multiplied thousandfold as it will apply for every single business that exists.
Again, you fail to see points where the starting of UBI would be the cutting and leaning the current welfare system. Also there would be different age groups which means the amount could range from $300-2,000 (min value for below 18 max value for pensioners). The second part, which is never mentioned, that this transfer wouldn't necessarily be spent monthly. Think about all the different investment options that financial institutions can run (life insurance, pension saving, state bonds, stock portfolios etc...), which would make it less of a socialist policy and more of an educational effort towards self-responsibility.

>smelly, dumb, magyar scum
bet I smell better than you kek

[Anonymous No.12832301]

>ubi implemented
>neets spend it on crypto
>dollar collapses
>neets are the new elite
bernie 2020, worse is better

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832324]

>>12832115
yeah or a lot of people just give up on ever working and become perma-plebs. a new class of dregs that are basically only good for the off chance of having a gifted productive offspring.

you can't know what makes people give up on being productive or not, but i suspect for most of them the strong pressure of staying alive and off the fucking streets. remove this primal pressure and it gets real hard to motivate most people. don't just think about those with a strong inner drive that's like 10% of society tops.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832511]

hungary currently has roughly 50% absolute employment rate. which means half of the country is not productive. well in the strictest sense they are pure consumers. this obviously includes children and the elderly but a good chunk of the working age population also.
and this seems to be the ratio elsewhere generally also. people only earn their keep and some more in their prime.

[Anonymous No.12832546]

>>12832324
>yeah or a lot of people just give up on ever working and become perma-plebs. a new class of dregs that are basically only good for the off chance of having a gifted productive offspring.
This is of course a reality even today, all thanks to the fucked up systems we currently have here too. That's why I would never ever support low-income people financially for having children, I would only off-set the cost of having children (tax deduction). Huge difference, as here we see who benefited from the X Ft/child/month policy which is a fucking crazy system yet it still hasn't changed one bit in decades. By having a tax-exempt UBI where having a child would not affect your overall income will result in not incentivizing breeding-for-money. As for other segments of society that aren't unproductive as of yet: they will find a way to earn more to have a better life. And then we have the unproductive ones who can just come out of the closet and don't have to pretend to work anymore. And the ones who will literally be unnecessary to work anyway due to automation. The only "problems" will be caused by the intermittent periods and only by a small margin.

>you can't know what makes people give up on being productive or not, but i suspect for most of them the strong pressure of staying alive and off the fucking streets. remove this primal pressure and it gets real hard to motivate most people. don't just think about those with a strong inner drive that's like 10% of society tops.
We can't know but we have estimates. Like you said the basis of Maslow's pyramid are the strong ones (as goals). By having an introductory UBI we'd only fill the food part, and even that just barely. They still have to have shelter somehow, living with parents, or finding a job (if still possible) and work for money. In the later stages however, it can indeed be a problem to motivate. That's why we have to focus on multiple fields simultaneously like sociology, psychology.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832589]

>>12832546
the problem with the tax exemption system is obvious we missed our chance to turn back the demographic decline because only a very slim portion off the society is incentivized by tax exemption enough to offset the crippling cost of child rearing. i get that you don't like gypsies nobody does, but this fucked up system pretty much doomed hungary to a declining population for the next century.
>By having an introductory UBI we'd only fill the food part, and even that just barely. They still have to have shelter somehow, living with parents, or finding a job (if still possible) and work for money.
we can see on the hobos how well this works, it would all go into drugs and booze. you are making fiends this way. entire colonies of fiends that prey on each other and wallow in their filthy misery.

no ubi must support a decent if humble living. especially if people team up or form a family.
>That's why we have to focus on multiple fields simultaneously like sociology, psychology.
don't worry nothing to do with actual science research or any careful consideration will get funding in this country.

[Anonymous No.12832597]

>>12832244
>Again, you fail to see points where the starting of UBI would be the cutting and leaning the current welfare system

Making the welfare system itself universal even just to current recipients wouldn't make much sense either because cost of living is radically different from state to state, city to city and even county to county. The reason it's as complex and inefficient a system as it is now is because the economy isn't this symmetrical binary thing, and people go on welfare having been in wildly different situations from one another. Think of the difference in needs between someone living in California vs the Midwest.

Because rent and mortgage and necessity spending between individuals is so different you'd have to have some kind of infrastructure in place already to send UBI recipients to. They'll have to give up their individual dwellings for some kind of uniform domicile located somewhere nearby where they can also be given basic work in public services, we could think of a cool name to call them, like "gulags" or something like that.

The only reason the status quo welfare system works, as inefficient and inelegant as it may be, is because people "know" they can't 100% count on it (even if they pretty much can).

>bet I smell better than you kek

I'm sorry, that was mean of me to say (and you're probably right, I've been crashing on my parents' couch because of the recent blizzards to help them with shoveling and so on-and I haven't been showering at all as consequence~)

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832689]

>>12832589
>no ubi must support a decent if humble living.
an alternative approach is give very little money and provide basic necessities for every citizen, like 1 small flat for 2-4 people, or a bunk in a community housing for singles, 1mbit/s internet, basic cable tv package, free electricity up to 90 kWh per month, free water up to 4500 l, and free food, like actual fucking food delivery of a basic stipend subscription from the provider of your choice and a utility package each month including some basic soap and shampoo and razors all cheap as fuck. maybe you can choose from A B or C packages based on of you need tampons or aftershave. a basic clothing package including mostly pajamas jump suits and a single uniform clothing each year.

if you want anything nicer than this baseline then you got to work.

the entire experience would not be too different from how you are in a military with the issued stuff.

and this would actually not fuck with the incentives so bad for the workers since they actually want to buy the goods they bought before. but it would also keep people form the deepest poverty and the slippery slope of living on the streets.

[Anonymous No.12832704]

>>12829519

>Exploding depression rates caused by purposelessness


Please enlighten me how working at a cash register for 40 hours a week gives someone purpose in their life.

I'm waiting faggot.

[Anonymous No.12832732]

>>12832589
>the problem with the tax exemption system is obvious we missed our chance to turn back the demographic decline because only a very slim portion off the society is incentivized by tax exemption enough to offset the crippling cost of child rearing. i get that you don't like gypsies nobody does, but this fucked up system pretty much doomed hungary to a declining population for the next century.
We are fucked either way, that's for sure :)

>we can see on the hobos how well this works, it would all go into drugs and booze. you are making fiends this way. entire colonies of fiends that prey on each other and wallow in their filthy misery.
If someone already reaches the level to be a hobo its already "too late" to help them with something regular and uniform as an UBI-esque transfer. They of course would still need extra help (humanitarian, volunteers etc). Though honestly, I think with such a system we would reduce the overall number of hobos in a preventive way, but for reasons, I bet there is a "natural rate of hobos" everywhere that can't be helped.

Curious that we have similar proposals yet you are leaning toward that it won't or hardly ever work out, maybe with only luck. And I'm probably a bit too optimistic about the human nature, but it's also true that I don't see any other way out of the current economic spirals.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832733]

>>12832704
dunno but work is killing my soul that's all i can say about it. i had projects i had interests before it. now i just want the day to end and the weekend to come where i can finally do fuck all.

[Anonymous No.12832797]

>>12832597
>Making the welfare system itself universal even just to current recipients wouldn't make much sense either because cost of living is radically different from state to state, city to city and even county to county. The reason it's as complex and inefficient a system as it is now is because the economy isn't this symmetrical binary thing, and people go on welfare having been in wildly different situations from one another. Think of the difference in needs between someone living in...
True, it's honestly hard to believe the US would ever be able to make something like that implemented on a federal level. Its really only a probability for Western Europe I know.

>Because rent and mortgage and necessity spending between individuals is so different you'd have to have some kind of infrastructure in place already to send UBI recipients to. They'll have to give up their individual dwellings for some kind of uniform domicile located somewhere nearby where they can also be given basic work in public services, we could think of a cool name to call them, like "gulags" or something like that.
Yeah I wouldn't want that. But again this is complex beyond the scope of a simple benefit, the whole economy and society would require a change for this. Some say it would also start an anti-urbanization whereby people would start to migrate from big cities, thus reducing realty prices there, and then going into smaller municipalities, where they could drive up the economies locally. And it's a logical assumption as all the work that originally attracted people to cities are mostly gone (industrial) and the service sector is also getting automated every day (though it'll never be 100%).

>I'm sorry, that was mean of me to say (and you're probably right, I've been crashing on my parents' couch because of the recent blizzards to help them with shoveling and so on-and I haven't been showering at all as consequence~)
No hard feelings bro. Good luck with the snow!

[Anonymous No.12832822]

>>12828917
This is what Milton Friedman proposed.
The problem is that people are so retarded that they would probably cry over how their "new UBI" is not enough for medical bills, education or other bs. And then you would have to maintain UBI AND welfare because of idiots who don't know how to spend their money.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832828]

>>12832597
>Because rent and mortgage and necessity spending between individuals is so different you'd have to have some kind of infrastructure in place already to send UBI recipients to.
or ubi dependents would migrate to a cheaper part of the country since you don't have to worry about work anymore you are free to go where living is easiest.

[Anonymous No.12832831]

>>12826391
UBI will actually allow females stay home taking care of the kids. Men will be motivated to keep working so they can outcompete others and impregnate more females.

[Anonymous No.12832839]

>>12832831
do you REALLY think women will become housewives because of UBI? they will probably use it to drink, party and spend it on frivolous useless bs.

[Anonymous No.12832861]

>>12828523
MMT

[Anonymous No.12832862]

>>12832839
Let me ask me wife... Just a second.
Ok she said she would use UBI to stay home with the kids.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832872]

>>12832244
>Also there would be different age groups which means the amount could range from $300-2,000 (min value for below 18 max value for pensioners).

actually the difference is nowhere near that great. but yeah maybe ubi needs to be adjusted to age.

[Anonymous No.12832889]

>>12826391
(You) have to choice
1. muslim system
2. human cloning
3. war

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832892]

>>12832862
>Ok she said she would use UBI to stay home with the kids.
yeah but how do you know she would not drink and party with her girlfriends get drunk as a skunk and poledance on bbc all night?

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12832902]

>>12832889
war it is then.

[Anonymous No.12832944]

>>12828655
Fuck you nigger. Defense is the only reasonable service the government should provide and it is only a miniscule part of the budget. Entitlement programs are already the majority, you only don't realise that because you fall for the Jewish trick of "mandatory" vs "discretionary" spending, which hides all the socialism.

[Anonymous No.12832995]

>>12832872
>actually the difference is nowhere near that great. but yeah maybe ubi needs to be adjusted to age.
The values were just examples I didn't make any calculations.

Imho it needs age groups if for nothing else then to incorporate pensions as well as early incentive for young adults:
>1-18 : 0,3 monthly amount would be deposited and only be accessed once the child comes of age, it should be in state bonds, and the state should hedge against inflation with any number of means.
>19-25 : 1,3 the fresh adult gets the compound amount plus a slightly bigger stipend per month that they can now access monthly (if needed). This is because people have the biggest potential at that age, thats where you "flip the coin".
>26-59: 0,7 Here you should be earning actively, provided its still possible (it is for now).
>60+ : 1,7 And the pensions where you are not supposed to work anyway

Just an example again. Later in the future this can be fine tuned or reduced altogether depending on the state of tech.

[Anonymous [O1G] No.12833062]

>>12832995
again too big spread it should be from 0.4 to 0.9 if you take the average income as 1.

[Anonymous No.12833169]

>>12833062
Yeah you're probably right, not sure about the specifics, they need to be tailored to the countries demographics etc... But there should be at least this 4 separate age groups

[Anonymous No.12833235]

>>12832892
She just doesn't have enough time to do that stuff. Women become more docile after they procreate. Kids first, you know.

[Anonymous No.12833271]

UBI is morally justifiable as a citizen's dividend.

Nationalize or tax all domestic natural resources to the fund UBI.

[Anonymous No.12833283]

>>12832301
Das it mane. Was gonna vote for mcafeee but You’ve just convinced me to vote for bernie

[Anonymous No.12833305]

>>12826391
>refuse intimacy
>criminalize intimacy
>blame men who cannot engage in hypergamy unless they are top 10%

Women need to have their right to vote removed. They have abused the right.

[Anonymous No.12833349]

>>12826508
Which indian tribe are you from again?

[Anonymous No.12833359]

>>12828923
So you didn't need 9999 words to say you're going to steal it from us.

[Anonymous No.12833373]

just deport/kill the shitskins, and then we can start talking about it

[Anonymous No.12833395]

>>12828631
>Muh wealth
i don't care about rich fags

[Anonymous No.12833450]

>>12828653
that happened in the Soviet Union during the Stalin regime, he knew that hypersexualism was bourgeoise ideology. it makes the worker lazy and literally a cum-brain, just look at America where sex is the master in all spheres is the beginning and the end of this kind of being.

[Anonymous No.12833506]

>>12829254
Capitalism gives you wealth in exchange of your being, literally selling your soul to the devil for a few years of "commodities",

[Anonymous No.12833750]

>>12833506
>Working for a living is seeking your soul

[Anonymous No.12833844]

>>12826698
>implying that's a bad thing

[Anonymous No.12833879]

>>12826596
thats not bad tax bill gates bezos and the walmart ladies and we got it easy if you include all the unkown psychorich. dont even have to print or borrow just crush the ultrarich down to scale

[Anonymous No.12833883]

>>12828449
even better is UBI for only men, all the dudes get gfs and no more desperate poverty

[Anonymous No.12833978]

>>12832023
finally a pro-business argument

[Anonymous No.12834310]

>>12832822
but thats precisely it. Those idiots are going to be the ones working at McDonalds and sustaining the crap jobs because they're terrible with money

[Anonymous No.12835084]

>>12827899
because that's not 1 account
and it's boomers

[Anonymous No.12835091]

>>12828523
shorting bcash and bsv

[Anonymous No.12835095]

>>12826508
>sharia law
Enjoy not being allowed to wash your hands under running water