If you haven't read this book you don't understand the relationship between labor and capital, you don't understand money, and you will literally never make it. It's very long and very dense. You've got work to do, /biz/.

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Anonymous Fri Sep 14 20:48:09 2018 No.11080928 [Reply] [Original]

If you haven't read this book you don't understand the relationship between labor and capital, you don't understand money, and you will literally never make it.

It's very long and very dense. You've got work to do, /biz/.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 20:48:35 2018 No.11080931 >>11080928 lmfao

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 20:50:19 2018 No.11080943

>>11080931
Our educational system has done you a disservice if you think I'm joking. You don't have to be a communist to understand that Karl Marx had a fuller understanding of economics than anybody before or since.

You have to separate his political theories from his analysis of capitalism to really grasp the value of his work.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 20:51:32 2018 No.11080949 >the real red pill

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 20:51:45 2018 No.11080950 >>11080943 It only works if you use it as a supplement to participation in as free a market as you can compete in

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 20:52:06 2018 No.11080951 File: 30 KB, 540x677, 1527023941832.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11080928

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 20:57:15 2018 No.11080987 >>11080951 That worked out well for him.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 20:58:53 2018 No.11080999 >>11080928 Tl:dr profit is the stolen surplus value of the laborer. This idea will never gain traction desu... Americans are bred work horses that will only ever blame themselves and not the system. Also, no commies

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:02:00 2018 No.11081027

Why not both have all people in america own a stock in top 3 companies so they can live off the yearly percentages while the rest of the world is introduced to working. Theres like less americans than there are other people in the world. All of america can be the 1 percent while we introduce capitalism to other countries.

Cons of capitalism and consumerism
>divides a nation into classes and racism
>destroys morals and morale
>focus on wealth at the expense of your own
>causes irreversable enviromental problems
>cause health hazards in the expense of profit
>eventually leads to monopoly, dictatorship, facism, and control
>eventually leads to communism for the working class
>eventually destroys freedom of markets through lobbying and laws
>people who make it pull the ladder up with them.

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:02:48 2018 No.11081035
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>>11080928
>>11080943
the sheer untallyable damage that proponents of marx' literature have done to everyone in the world by making people who read his crap think that they should have any say over how other people conduct their business is just fucking mad
stop trying to get people who are oftentimes just self-aware enough to be able to be convinced that they're the problem with the world to support their own self-destruction and go to hell

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:06:40 2018 No.11081067 >>11081035 >anons posting anarcho-capitalist memes as if it's a coherent ideology >some word babble about don't tread on me See, this is why you need to read Marx. Don't be scared of new ideas anon.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:11:32 2018 No.11081107 >>11081067 based and truly redpilled everyone should read capital

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:14:05 2018 No.11081126 lmao your entire ideology is obsolete, go seize and redistribute satoshis wallet you shit eating nigger

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:18:00 2018 No.11081149 >>11081126 Did I tell you to read the Communist Manifesto? No.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:19:54 2018 No.11081164 >>11081149 close enough, get aids and go recruit for your cult somewhere else

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:21:36 2018 No.11081178 Sage and hide leftypol raid commie faggot threads

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:22:52 2018 No.11081184

>>11080928
You can't separate his politics from his writings on capitalism because they informed his worldview. He didn't understand it and anyone that think he did almost certainly falls into the communist camp. He failed to have a basic grasp of how people function and kept clinging to his ideal version of society in which everything works the way he thinks.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:28:27 2018 No.11081218 File: 1.41 MB, 350x272, 1523064051541.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11081184 He is literally the person that coined the term "capitalism." By even calling it that, you acknowledge that he understood what he was talking about.

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:30:43 2018 No.11081231

>>11080928
>Capitalism vs Communism
A tale as old as time. The opposition of the two major forces in nature. Individualism vs Collectivism.

Neither "system" is the "answer". Only the ignorant fall for the lesser of two Evils. But sadly, this is the way of the world. Men are herded into camps and told to fight each other based on ideologies and "facts"

After 15 years of studying this shit its amazing how people really don't get it yet. It's not about the system... its about the people in power.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:43:49 2018 No.11081329 >>11081218 I'm glad I'm not the only anon on /biz/ who gets it. I was getting worried that this place really was /pol/ 2.0

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:48:20 2018 No.11081357
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>>11080928
>Read a book written by someone who has never worked a day in his life (let alone in any manual labor job) and lived off of his rich wife and friends.

Yeah, Karl Marx was totally not a beta man who was angry and bitter over being ostracized from the upper class social circles and created works that antagonized people solely based their class.

My pro tip to anyone reading books: Read the bio of authors if possible. Their works would make more sense in the context of their lives. Notice how Karl Marx's life details are hard to find. The Leftists intentionally kept this information out of the limelight because it would expose him as a fucking hypocrite.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:48:59 2018 No.11081368 >>11081218 Marx didn't coin the term faggot. Try looking up Benjamin Disraeli who Marx stole the term from.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 21:54:23 2018 No.11081415 File: 80 KB, 1280x720, 1515668239919.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11081357 >never worked a day in his life >author of at least 17 books, many of which greatly influenced human history and philosophy

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:06:26 2018 No.11081517 >>11081415 You can write books without making money off of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx >His main source of income was Engels, whose own source was his wealthy industrialist father.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:09:02 2018 No.11081540 >>11081517 Working doesn't entail making money. Lookup its meaning, you are confusing it with wageslavery. Marx worked, and he worked a lot harder than most of his contemporaries or ours.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:15:01 2018 No.11081590 File: 36 KB, 324x499, 51nuPGc0naL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Fuck off marxist This is the true redpill

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:16:45 2018 No.11081613 >>11081517 >Writing about something you've personally never experienced or have prior knowledge about. This is why nobody likes commies.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:19:47 2018 No.11081638 File: 53 KB, 940x788, 66edc2bebb22eac0081160c6cb1ded254ea8966dd0e05d730ef7fb03c1101b4b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11081613 you can write about the observations you make of your surroundings and the experiences of others

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:21:16 2018 No.11081655 Reading a book by (((they))) Yeah no.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:22:28 2018 No.11081669 >>11081638 >Working for the state is better than working for a private business at least with the business you have a choice of leaving

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:29:46 2018 No.11081722 >>11081231 It's the people in power. >t. NPC It's the people. >t. actual person

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:33:15 2018 No.11081760 >>11080928 i got in trouble for reading a pdf of this at work lol

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 22:53:53 2018 No.11081944
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>>11081067
>"don't be scared of new ideas anon"
>thinks that marx is "new ideas" that haven't been forced a billion times
>thinks that marx' ideas are good or relevant to the lives of productive individuals within society
>literally "you deserve more pay if the work is harder" instead of "you deserve more pay if you produce more of the same thing"
>thinks that an entire country could possibly all live by the same collectivist ideology, and that it would necessarily be to that society's benefit if they did, or that there would be a society left to benefit from it in two generations
how does it feel knowing that your line of thought is what puts people who destroy civilizations and the lives of everyone in those civilizations in power

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 23:01:05 2018 No.11082010
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funny thing is Marx was pretty much like a regular poster here
>frequently engaged in speculation based on insider tips from his stock whale buddy Engels, then publicly boasted about his unearned income
>took great joy in the misfortunate investments of others, describing his less successful peers as "Jewish niggers" despite being a Jew himself

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 23:03:22 2018 No.11082025 >>11080928 Literally nobody even knew this existed if it hasn't been for the communist manifesto

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 23:05:16 2018 No.11082034 >>11081540 Yeah, he worked so hard that he didn't give a fuck about his own family's suffering. He had a personal agenda, an axe to grind.

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 23:16:42 2018 No.11082120
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>>11081638
The irony of Marx's philosophy is that he dehumanizes people by viewing them through simplified models. In his view, proletariat will forever remain proletariat and bourgeoisie will forever remain bourgeoisie. He never considers human agency as an individual factor. He thinks everyone is an NPC and thinks the world's problems can be solved by putting a different program (communism) into the NPCs.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 23:22:39 2018 No.11082170 >>11082120 Are you high? I don't think you have as much of a point as you may think. You have alot of arguing to do if you say his theories of why capitalism dehumanizes people is actually what dehumanises them

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 23:30:22 2018 No.11082227

>>11082170
>his theories of why capitalism dehumanizes people is actually what dehumanises them

Do have problems with reading comprehension? How did you interpret my post to mean that his theories is the reason why people are dehumanized? That's a lot of mental gymnastics.

Just because you're offering a solution to a problem doesn't automatically mean your solution doesn't have the same problems as the system you're trying fix.

Anonymous Fri Sep 14 23:54:04 2018 No.11082437

>>11082120

First, how do we talk about humans and their societies in a empirical way without classifying things? It's not dehumanizing to say one group has something and another does not, that's an observation. Also the end game of marxist thought is a classless society, so no, the proletariat and the bourgeoisie would presumably both evolve by his argument.

Second, not saying you're a capitalist, you might not be. But, the capitalist reduces human beings to the lowly state of being nothing more than a commodity by replacing the worship of god with the worship of profit. They also enslave themselves to this aim destroying their own liberty and individuality. Rich people might think they're free, but they still base all their actions around appeasing profit or wealth, in turn reducing themselves to less than human.

We killed god and now we have no idea what to do with ourselves. That's not an argument for reviving his centuries old festering corpse either, just that we should find something better and less degrading to do with ourselves besides worshiping this pitiful circle jerk of nihilism that our culture has turned into.

To pursue commodity production in the form of the moneid commodity for no other purpose than to produce this commodity at all costs and for its own sake, is to speak to only to the commodity. To speak only to oneself is to speak to nothing, to be nothing. We are not nothing!

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 23:55:46 2018 No.11082445 Value doesn’t come from labor. If it did you could just spend hours making mud pies and they would be valuable.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 14 23:58:31 2018 No.11082467 Marx is the most influential economist of the modern era. Even IF hes wrong, everyone an interest in economics should still read capital. But marx was right about pretty much everything

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:01:10 2018 No.11082483 File: 283 KB, 1024x760, CTyM4a7UEAExpDP.jpg_large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11080928 Bourgeoisie get out! REEEEEEEE! for hundreds of pages.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:02:21 2018 No.11082495 >>11082445 >strawman: ltv version

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:14:29 2018 No.11082584

>>11080928
Ah yes, the age-old myth of the "Labor Theory of Value." Well, the rest of the world left that fairy-tale behind. Obviously only retards still cling to it. Sorry, OP. I don't want to be mean to you. I feel like you get enough shit from people in real life. Hope all is well with you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:15:16 2018 No.11082589 >>11082483 This lmao. But still better than Mein Kampf, or as I like to call it, "Autistic Rant: The Book"

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:18:19 2018 No.11082612 >>11082495 >thats not real ltv, real ltv has never been tried

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:23:41 2018 No.11082637

>>11082437
>First, how do we talk about humans and their societies in a empirical way without classifying things?
>Second, not saying you're a capitalist, you might not be.

It seems like you're contradicting yourself here. You say you don't want to classify people but, even though you haven't done it yet, you're considering applying a label to me.

>But, the capitalist reduces human beings to the lowly state of being nothing more than a commodity by replacing the worship of god with the worship of profit. They also enslave themselves to this aim destroying their own liberty and individuality. Rich people might think they're free, but they still base all their actions around appeasing profit or wealth, in turn reducing themselves to less than human.

You're viewing the problem on a macroscopic level and seeing people with a simplified model. That's how labels are created, from models of things being described. If an person or thing meets the criteria for the model, you can apply the appropriate label. But, how can you solve a problem when your data models are inaccurate? What's a bourgeosie? What's a proletariat? What's a capitalist? Marx only uses ownership of production as the distinction. Don't you think that's too simplistic? How can you see the problem in an empirical way when you reduce people to such simple models and completely ignore their individual motivations? Have you ever thought about why so many countries that attempted communism failed?

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:25:46 2018 No.11082650

>>11082589
I'm not opposing communists to nazis. Mein Kampf was repetitive pasta. Some "interesting" parts but lot of loose noise.
If you're interested in Hitler, "Hitler's table talks" are breddy gud. He's got some good analogies about rodents, cancer, things like that. It's uncanny how 4chan tier it reads like.
Although I'm in favor of capitalism, "wealth of nations" 's invidit hand was taken out of context so much it became like a commandment from the Bible or something.
From "if shipping takes too long then people will be more likely to buy locally even if it's more expensive" to "lmao capitalism fixes itself"

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:27:14 2018 No.11082662 >>11082650 Invisible hand *

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:30:19 2018 No.11082679

>>11082637
cont'd

I never hear communists explain how to prevent problems that occur with failed communists states from occurring. Instead of trying to analyze the causes of the failures and trying to come up with ways to fix them, they just write the failures off as "not real communism".

Reality isn't some video game where you make the same attempt repeatedly and then succeed after gaining enough experience and skill. Communists think reality works with a script. If you change the script, everything will fall into place and communist will work. It's not that simple. That's why communism appeals to so many people. The solution is simple, just take over the means of production and every will work out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 00:42:15 2018 No.11082753 Not for nothing but to my experience and those of my friends this is required reading in some business degree programs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:00:24 2018 No.11082899 >>11082679 they weren't real communism though

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:01:55 2018 No.11082914 >>11081944 This kind of thinking worked for most of human civilization's history It won't work in the future. Marx was right

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:12:15 2018 No.11082983

>>11082679

It doesn't help that most communist revolutions require the funding/logistics/organization of successful capitalist in said nation state. They usually do it for a guaranteed leadership position or leniency on their enterprise. When the rebels get into power they never want to lead either, and they prop themselves up with a bunch of the capitalists as advisors so they can keep the lights on.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:12:35 2018 No.11082986 >>11082612 >ltv has never been tried Yes it has

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:20:06 2018 No.11083026 File: 48 KB, 819x285, justdiealready.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Jesus, you fags actually think capital is using labor to make "things" in the current year.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:26:52 2018 No.11083074 >>11080943 you're a brainlet

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:27:55 2018 No.11083079 File: 529 KB, 843x403, image2.jpg.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] why is /biz/ so retarded? don't you faggots read any real economists?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:34:59 2018 No.11083120 File: 156 KB, 640x980, ludwig-von-mises-920588.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:40:18 2018 No.11083149 >>11080987 Real fascism has never been tried

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:41:15 2018 No.11083156 >>11083026 Money isnt really a "thing"

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 01:44:13 2018 No.11083170 >communist parasites trying to fit in on a board that discusses privately owned business & finance

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 02:13:00 2018 No.11083340 File: 208 KB, 1066x800, Ideology+Mussolini+was+initially+a+member+of+Italy+s+socialist+party.+However,+he+was+thrown+out+because+of+his+view+that+Italy+should+join+WWI..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11080951 fascism = socialism = shit

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 02:26:35 2018 No.11083425 >>11083340 Incorrect.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 02:54:41 2018 No.11083579 File: 162 KB, 456x196, raw.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11080928 enjoy your shitty dis attempt on Adams economics God's masterpiece

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 03:33:15 2018 No.11083819

>>11082637

> It seems like you're contradicting yourself here. You say you don't want to classify people but, even though you haven't done it yet, you're considering applying a label to me.

I'm not contradicting myself, I was trying to get you to examine the question very literally. I don't have a problem with putting a name that represents and idea or a piece of data on something. Is the word Argon a label, or does it represent an element? I'm making the point that you're position is reductionist and ultimately nihilistic, relativism doesn't leave room to actually talk about anything because a person can always fall back on something akin to, "that's your opinion."

"You're viewing the problem on a macroscopic level and seeing people with a simplified model."

That would be a good point if it were true. Marx's model wasn't simplistic or lacking. The prole and the bourgeoisie are a part of the argument, not the whole thing. The whole point of capital is find laws of motion that apply to different forms of economy and understand them, and there were a hefty amount of actual statistics and mathematics involved in that process, which he never got to finish because he was born a few centuries too early to reach escape velocity for biological immortality, I digress.

Long story short, I'm not going to claim to understand all the intricacies economics in the way you describe, nor will I advocate a planned economy, like many failed "communist" states.

What I will say is that the evidence speaks for itself and Marx's laws of motion have actually demonstrated themselves in reality, which gives credence to his theory. We don't need to understand why stock X falls on day Y to understand the gestalt of economics.

> See the FACT that the rate of profit in capitalist society has steadily fallen for over a century now, which Marx's theory predicted.

> See the FACT that crisis cycles in capitalism have come like clockwork as his theory also predicted.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 03:37:50 2018 No.11083854 As a NEET, I completely support Socialism. It's only wagies who complain about socialism, because they want everyone to suffer like them.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 03:46:43 2018 No.11083922

>>11083854
It's not wanting other people to suffer. It's wanting other people to take responsibility for their own lives. On the contrary, it's NEETs who are uncaring about other people's suffering. They think they deserve to live life in easy mode because their imaginary problems are preventing them working.

If you want to be a NEET and your family can take of you, fine, but don't expect society to pick the tab if that doesn't work out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 04:19:15 2018 No.11084088 "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is basis if industial menegement, but only for mashines labor power is not property, sometimes need pay to em more than his needs

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 05:08:15 2018 No.11084403 >>11081329 >everyone who has a different opinion than me is a nazi

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 05:15:25 2018 No.11084431 File: 2.23 MB, 3000x2000, 1536898501911.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11083922 oh wagie when will you learn that not everyone wants to live their lives serving someone.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 05:22:39 2018 No.11084464 >>11080928 It is true - purely because of the mental models you create in your head while reading it. These kind of abstract dynamics between elements of the production process

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 05:40:02 2018 No.11084560 >>11081357 So you critizise Marx for not being a wagecuck?

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 06:02:12 2018 No.11084666

The crux of Marx's argument lays in his labour theory of value. It short, it states that economic value is derived from labour.
This may have been true in his day, during the height of the industrial revolution, when output was an almost direct function of input of labour. Only by 'stealing' the surplus value of their workers could the bourgeoisie make economic rents. This, Marx claimed, was exploitation of the highest caliber. Because the bourgeoisie owned the means of production, plus the capital to employ it, and the economics of survival meant that workers were constantly denied access to either capital and/or means of production, they were at mercy of the capitalists.
This is no longer the case. Not only is social mobility easier than ever before, but the means of production are more distributed than ever before. On top of that, the capital expenditure required to become a 'capitalist' is at the lowest it has ever been. Furthermore, you don't even need capital nowadays if you have brain - you can simply leverage your skills and experience, as for example in a joint venture.
If you think of the relationship between labour and capital, picture it as a slanting line creeping towards just above zero.
Marx is dead, and we have killed him. He will not be missed.
As for socialism, it will survive, simply because the vast majority are woefully inept at surviving in the information age and bleeding heart liberals won't allow nature to take its course. However, economic conditions may force darwinism upon us yet. We shall see.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 06:43:23 2018 No.11084863 >>11084666 There is a very good section in Das Kapital about the Ludites and how technology displaces labor which is still very relevant - I dont agree with you about it being outdated in that sense.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 06:50:27 2018 No.11084909 >>11084666 If you made this argument in the 50s to the 80s it would be very strong. Now its basically just propaganda

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 06:51:36 2018 No.11084918 >>11080943 Lol if you need Marx to tell you what you should already know. 105 IQ guy detected.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 08:13:20 2018 No.11085484 >>11081357 >: Read the bio of authors if possible. Their works would make more sense in the context of their lives. Holy shit this, fuck death of the author crap.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 08:30:03 2018 No.11085595 >>11081357 By that logic nobody should even read your post. Or mine. 4chan shouldnt exist and everyone should kys

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 09:19:10 2018 No.11085926

Late capitalism will strangle the last bit of ingenuity the human spirit has —- and some will welcome it as a new dawn, just as the many useful idiots that cheer capitalism today.

And we will be like flies, a hivemind, buzzing around a rotting corprse of what was: all of culture and what preceded us laid to waste, “all that is solid melts into air,” and we will be crushed by the boot of capital. By mindless homogeneity. This is your free market.

There is a reason both leftists and rightists in the turn of the 20th century were against capitalism. But now, we have far too many useful idiots who can’t make a distinction.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 09:44:25 2018 No.11086105

>>11080999
Marx did not put this forward as an ethical valuation. He looked at the process of value creation as a whole and the trends it created. It was not the fact of proles suddenly realizing their exploited status that would bring about communism, according to him. Rather, it was the fact of increasing consolidation and accumulation that would doom private property as a method of coordinating production.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 09:49:32 2018 No.11086123
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFtcLJVN8yg

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Capital-Volume-I.pdf

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 10:35:24 2018 No.11086450 File: 29 KB, 741x568, 1476647728200.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11080928 Anon, if I spend all day digging a ditch and then all tomorrow filling it back in, my labour deserves to be rewarded?

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 10:40:41 2018 No.11086493

>>11086450
Marx's labor theory of value isn't a normative formula but a descriptive one for how things work under capitalism.

In order for labor to have value it must first be socially useful. Marx's version of labor value was thus called "Socially Necessary Labor time." The value of a socially useful commodity was thus = the social average of labor required to produce it on a realistically competitive market.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 10:41:44 2018 No.11086501

>>11086450
>>11086493
It should be noted there's a large body of empirical work confirming this:
https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/09/11/emperical-strength-of-ltv/
https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/09/11/labour-values-prices-of-production/
http://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf
http://reality.gn.apc.org/econ/DZ_article1.pdf
http://www.helmutdunkhase.de/marxts.pdf
https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/08/14/japan-ltv-test/

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 10:52:00 2018 No.11086578 >>11086501 What about the large body of empirical evidence proving communism doesn't work? >Venezuela >USSR >North Korea

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 10:55:49 2018 No.11086606

>>11086578
>Venezeula
>70% private economy
>communism
lol

Either way, if you do actually read marx instead of spend all your time shitposting, you'd find that his theory rests on the development of capitalism. The USSR and North Korea were semi feudal backwaters that attempted to US state mobilization to replicate capitalist development. Stalin in particular was explicit about this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 10:57:18 2018 No.11086621 >>11086606 >not real communism Every. Fucking. Time.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:05:02 2018 No.11086690

>>11086621
Anon, I'm more than willing to say the USSR and whatever communist bloc country was a part of the communist political project. But it's quite a stretch to say that this is what Marx was talking about.

His predictions still hold a lot of weight, and as capitalism develops it must reckon with the constraints of private property on production and economic coordination. If you want to understanding his theory, or even argue against it, you first have to read what he actually said. You cannot even dispute LTV, as you changed the subject the moment you were shown to have no idea what you were talking about.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:26:51 2018 No.11086897 File: 52 KB, 480x480, numale2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11086690 Fucking kek, OK then anon, I promise to read about the LTV if you put your onions milk down and head to mises.org and read about Austrian economics.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:30:51 2018 No.11086941 File: 97 KB, 923x1024, 1497710554285m.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11086690 I haven't read marxs' work for the same reason I haven't read the Koran... Its literally not worth reading

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:33:27 2018 No.11086965 >>11086941 This outs you as a brainlet - how would you know that it's not worth it if you haven't read it?

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:34:02 2018 No.11086969
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>>11086897
I'm already reading "Human Action" for a book I'm writing. It's the most absolute drivel I've ever seen, on an academic level it can't even touch Capital.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:34:54 2018 No.11086978 >>11086941 >>11086965 Those faggot book writers wouldn't have been able to get an audience these days. Shit tier authoritarians with a bunch of words to back it up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:38:00 2018 No.11087016 >>11086978 The fact that you think "authoritarianism" is the greatest evil in politics shows how baby blocks tier your own ideology is.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:39:23 2018 No.11087026

>>11086965
>But anon, how do you know you gay sex isn't good if you never sucked a dudes dick?

As I said before. It is not worth reading. It's an extremely crude and limited theory that is largely disproven. Why waste time reading about something that is completely wrong? Do you also like to read books about how the earth was created in 7 days? Or about how the sun revolves around the earth?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:40:57 2018 No.11087043 >>11087026 >This theory is crude and disproven, I say as I conveniently ignore all the empirical studies that prove it and consistently show I have no idea what it is.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:53:04 2018 No.11087130
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>>11081540

Lol, marx fucked his maid, got her pregnant, then dumper her ass in a back ally to never be seen again. Such a man of the working class.

Why dont all you commie faggots who believe in the labor theory of value spend 10 years digging a hole in the ground and find someone to buy it. Then, when you discover everyone thinks you a stupid faggot for believing dumb horseshit about economics, you have a convenient place to commit suicide without bothering other people anymore.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:55:28 2018 No.11087147 >>11087043 You have equally ignored all the empirical studies showing LTV to be complete garbage. Nice cherry picking faggot >he thinks a weak correlation amounts to significant empirical evidence

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:55:56 2018 No.11087151 >>11086501 I feel bad for you anon, gathering sources for brainlets and idealogues

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:56:29 2018 No.11087156 >>11087130 Learn what it is you're talking about before opening your mouth, why don't you. >>11086493 >>11086501

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 11:57:30 2018 No.11087165 >>11087147 Let's see them

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:01:38 2018 No.11087200 File: 223 KB, 720x1080, 1536762480776.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] communists are the real bootlickers

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:03:08 2018 No.11087213

>>11087147
>Weak correlation
Marxian LTV is an extremely efficient predictor of prices. The correlations themselves are very high. One study put it at around 98%. http://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf

I would very much like to see what you have that refutes this.

What's even better there is not a single such empirical study that proves subjective value theory and marginal utility to my knowledge.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:05:00 2018 No.11087224 >>11086969 >for a book I'm writing Unemployed lefty butthurt that he can't make a living confirmed. What's the matter? Does no one want to pay you for your precious labour?

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:08:02 2018 No.11087248

>>11087165

You dont even need a study you dumb cunt. Use your "labor" to move a rock back and forth across a field for 40 hours and try to sell that to someone. You cant, because your "labor" has zero value. Next, be wading in the ocean and stub your toe on a 40 pound pure gold nugget, get filthy rich with zero labor.

Value is created or discovered, labor can either be variably productive OR worthless OR even negative value.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:09:50 2018 No.11087258

>>11087224
I'm actually in school at the moment, and just left the large corporation I did for the summer. The stuff I worked on was sent directly to chairman's office.

I find it quite sad though all you lot have left are ad hominen attacks. I've yet to see a single critique of substance in all these replies.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:13:19 2018 No.11087285

>>11087258
The point is, while you see them as ad hominem attacks, they actually explain your political views and why you subscribe to this retarded economic theory.

Your body is full of onions and you lack testosterone, therefore you lean to the left politically. You are still in school and yet you think you know how the world works, when you have never started a business or created value in your life. Perhaps in a few years you will understand.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:14:21 2018 No.11087293

>>11087248
>You cant, because your "labor" has zero value. Next, be wading in the ocean and stub your toe on a 40 pound pure gold nugget, get filthy rich with zero labor.
>Value is created or discovered, labor can either be variably productive OR worthless OR even negative value.

"Some people might think that if the value of a commodity is determined by the quantity of labour spent on it, the more idle and unskilful the labourer, the more valuable would his commodity be, because more time would be required in its production. The labour, however, that forms the substance of value, is homogeneous human labour, expenditure of one uniform labour power. The total labour power of society, which is embodied in the sum total of the values of all commodities produced by that society, counts here as one homogeneous mass of human labour power, composed though it be of innumerable individual units. Each of these units is the same as any other, so far as it has the character of the average labour power of society, and takes effect as such; that is, so far as it requires for producing a commodity, no more time than is needed on an average, no more than is socially necessary. The labour time socially necessary is that required to produce an article under the normal conditions of production, and with the average degree of skill and intensity prevalent at the time. The introduction of power-looms into England probably reduced by one-half the labour required to weave a given quantity of yarn into cloth. The hand-loom weavers, as a matter of fact, continued to require the same time as before; but for all that, the product of one hour of their labour represented after the change only half an hour’s social labour, and consequently fell to one-half its former value. We see then that that which determines the magnitude of the value of any article is the amount of labour socially necessary, or the labour time socially necessary for its production."
t. marx

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:16:15 2018 No.11087307 If you're not a National Socialist, you're never gonna make it

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:18:54 2018 No.11087324

>>11087285
The reason I'm a marxist is very simple, you don't have to psychoanalyze anonymous posts on a korean kitchen ware forum, you could have just asked. I wanted to be have a principled political philosophy that didn't involve identity politics. This left socialism and libertarianism. I was actually a liberterian when I got out of high school. I grew out of it as I learned economics.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:23:25 2018 No.11087356

>>11087324
Well anon, if you don't want to waste your life I would strongly suggest studying something else. I mean that as genuine advice. Learn computer science, study investing and how to start a business... Anything but Marxism, you will end up useless to society and butthurt about it to boot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:28:14 2018 No.11087388 >no one on /biz/ has actually read this Why wouldn't you read so important an economic text. Should be easy for guys as informed about the economy as you guys right?

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:28:26 2018 No.11087389

>>11087356
I'm already investing anon, and there's a decent chance I'll end up at an investment banking consulting firm. When I say economics, I don't mean just marxism. I wanted to know how the financial system actually worked. So I took a summer job in the banking system and learned how to do statistical analysis in R.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:32:04 2018 No.11087413

>>11087293
>>11087324

>im so smart, i read a study that correlates market priced comodities with market priced labor rates. No, that doesnt prove that markets are generally efficient, it proves that socialism is the answer! Even though im a young dumb cunt whoes brain isnt done developing, i think we should all submit to a violent centralized planning authority that will implement an ideology that has killed literally 10's of millions of people through decades of slaughter and starvation.

Convincing argument anon, i guess ill sell my succesful business and go down to the local college marxist group and really learn what life is about.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:43:22 2018 No.11087495

>>11087413
The law of value isn't really concerned with the efficiency of markets. I recall reading that this correlation even existed in the USSR.

Regardless, Marx does not rest on the case of labor creating value as the reason why socialism must come about. (And I say must in a descriptive not normative sense). Rather, he points to the tendency for the rate of profit to fall, the tendency for for consolidation and monopolization, and the tendency for accumulation.

If monopolization really did proceed to the extent Marx described at the end of Capital volume 1, expropriation of the means of production would authentically be the only answer as private property would have become a fetter on efficient production and distribution. This has still occurred, but to a lesser degree. To the extent there are economies of scale there should be some level of social ownership and control, whether through a state or not.

Its also one of the best kept secrets that "ideologies" are not things that actually implemented. You can't just impose ideals onto reality, nor are the actions of states reflections of particular ideals, but class interests. It's interesting to note, however, that the USSR in the Stalinist collectivization campaigns was only trying to copy capitalist primitive accumulation, where large amounts of natural resources and capital was expropriated from the peasants to fund industrialization. After the stalinist period, the USSR would maintain higher levels of calorie consumption than the United States until its dissolution.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 12:53:25 2018 No.11087591 How do communists reconcile with differences in IQ and physical ability of different races?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 13:00:06 2018 No.11087642 >>11083340 even your own image disagrees with you. holy shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 13:00:16 2018 No.11087644 >>11087591 just f-ck em with your penis and you will love em

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 13:15:27 2018 No.11087764
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>>11087495

>Rather, he points to the tendency for the rate of profit to fall, the tendency for for consolidation and monopolization, and the tendency for accumulation.

So the exact opposite of what has happened in reality, where calitalism has lifted a billion people out of poverty in the last decade.

>To the extent there are economies of scale there should be some level of social ownership and control, whether through a state or not.

Social ownership is a fraudulent phrase, because the is no social ownership of anything in a totalitarian marxist state power monopoly, not even your own life. There is only submission to your socialist overlords.

>After the stalinist period, the USSR would maintain higher levels of calorie consumption than the United States until its dissolution

So, after killing 40 million people or so, the survivors had to work in conditions with less mechanization than their western counterparts (dang pesky capital), thus requiring more calorific input (pre industrial farm workers were also likely to consume more calories than modern people), what a great trade.

By the way, effeminate intellectual idealists are always the first to get sent to the torture camps for disagreeing (slightly) with the kind of violent psychopaths who implement ideologies based on violating peoples fundamental individual rights.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 13:24:22 2018 No.11087829

>>11087764
>So the exact opposite of what has happened in reality, where calitalism has lifted a billion people out of poverty in the last decade.
The rate of profit isn't connected to the level of people raised out of poverty. Actually, rather its the complete opposite relation. It was due to the falling rate of profit in developed countries that production moved to find cheap labor in east asia, creating the biggest reduction in poverty.

>Social ownership is a fraudulent phrase, because the is no social ownership of anything in a totalitarian marxist state power monopoly
Marxists probably won't be the ones to create socialism, when it comes about, it will be from sheer necessity. Social ownership btw, can be something as simple as a sovereign wealth fund.

>the survivors had to work in conditions with less mechanization than their western counterparts (dang pesky capital), thus requiring more calorific input (pre industrial farm workers were also likely to consume more calories than modern people)
Quite the opposite, the pace of labor was quite lax since there was no fear of being fired. Employment was always guaranteed. The caloric intake also rose over time. It was eventually overtaken by american decadence, however.

I'm no intellectual, btw, I'll be quite content being a faceless bureaucrat in some backwater no matter what system I end up under.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 13:37:34 2018 No.11087957

>>11087829
It appears we have an intellectual in our midst. One no doubt driven to neo-zealotry by 'higher reasoning'. Though your arguments may be fancy, your sophistry has no place on /biz/.
While you may have more knowledge of marxism, due to the sheer autism of not only reading Das Kapital, but actively engaging your brain in drinking that drivel up, you will, no doubt, have a privileged position in this thread.
That's great for you, but bad for /biz/, because some weak-willed 105ers might just start to take yu seriously. Regardless, marxism is inherently flawed, and out of date, and I'll tell you why.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 13:42:51 2018 No.11088009 File: 197 KB, 1061x1200, Div0XHeW0AYpYX0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11087957 I'm listening.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 13:44:57 2018 No.11088032

>>11087829

>capitalism didnt lift a billion people out of poverty, profit seeking lifted a billion people out of poverty

Um, yes? And median wages in the US continue to grow despite this (although admitedly, low IQ brainlets will have an increasingly hard time in the ChadIQconomy, good thing we have socialist state policies subsidizing them to breed in unsustainible numbers)

>Marxists probably won't be the ones to create socialism
Because marxists never create anything except bad government policy
>Social ownership btw, can be something as simple as a sovereign wealth fund
Just gotta steal it from the people that earned it first

> the pace of labor was quite lax since there was no fear of being fired. Employment was always guaranteed
And all the people of the world were clamoring to illegaly immigrate to the USSR and their guarenteed employement, universal healthcare and super high quality of life. And they lived happily ever after, the end.

>I'll be quite content being a faceless bureaucrat in some backwater

Under a marxist system you'll be content to do what they tell you, or else, slave.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 13:53:15 2018 No.11088113

>>11087957
Marxism is inherently flawed in that it collectives society and brings everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
Would the socialist worker-ruler ideal be held by all members of such a society, it just might work. But it won't, especially in the modern age. There will always be those among us who strive for more. In a word, competition. What use is a competitive spirit in a world where such excess labour is redistributed 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs'. Were this offset by rents in some other sphere, then perhaps it would be barely tolerable.
This is why the profit motive is the single most powerful incentive known to man. You reap what you sow.
In a closed society, such as was enforced by communist states, the RELATIVE standard of living is EQUAL and ACCEPTED, simply due to a lack of information. If my neighbour has a house, then I want a house. If a wall separates me from my neighbour, and those around me live in wood houses, then I want a wood house.
Pecuniary emulation is the opiate of the masses. Social mobility is higher than ever, but inequality is on the rise. Why? Because equality of opportunity does not correlate to equality of outcome. This is true freedom, true liberty. This is capitalism.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:00:26 2018 No.11088181

>>11088032
>And median wages in the US continue to grow despite this
Real median wages have only risen about 1.7% in the last twenty years. Personally, I don't care much about autism points.

>Just gotta steal it from the people that earned it first
People like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet hardly worked for all their hundreds of billions.

>And all the people of the world were clamoring to illegaly immigrate to the USSR and their guarenteed employement, universal healthcare and super high quality of life
The USSR was the most backwater country in europe when it was founded, and that was before going through a civil war and a world war. However, it should be once again noted that its leaders worked very hard to emulate the growth of capitalist countries and their methods of doing so. Its eventual collapse, as most histories of the time will show you, was do to a break down of discipline.

>Under a marxist system you'll be content to do what they tell you
There is no such thing as a "marxist" system. Certainly, marx never outlined any kind of hypothetical communism in any depth. To the extent he did, it was only with emphasis to people being able to use their labor however they wanted, using their greater free time for actualization. Already today, we are slaves, we have no power in government, in our workplaces, in the decisions that effect ourselves or our communities. Worse yet, we aren't even slaves to a human master, but the inhumanity that is capital.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:02:49 2018 No.11088205

>>11088113
Marxism is the bastard child of the industrial era. Unloved and unwanted, it was imposed by those seeking to gain power. Regardless of outcome, the catalyst was wrought by estranged intellectuals, outcasts, and pariahs, supported by uneducated masses. It is easy to convince those without the means to employ critical thinking and lacking any sort of logical or rational guidance that their misery is the fault of others. Capitalism busts this myth, and offers a solution. This solution is becoming more blatant and distributed as the years roll by.
The industrial era is over, and with it marxism is dead. As for LTV, I believe it a moot point, as I said earlier (see >>11084666).
Automation has already replaced many jobs, and will replace the vast majority of current 'modern-day' jobs. The labour of few will replace the labour of money. Welcome to the information age; introducing: the cognitive elite.
The cognitive elite is the final nail in the coffin for marxism. The labour market of the future is not one of secure work given by contract and enforced by the state. The labour market of the future is a global, flexible aggregate of all peoples, everywhere, anytime.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:03:16 2018 No.11088210 >meme ideology general

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:05:54 2018 No.11088245
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>>11088181
Holy fuck, you just keep doubling down don't you?

>b, but Bill Gates and Warren buffet don't deserve to be wealthy, they exploited other people's labour

It's called entrepreneurial risk faggot, if you don't take the risk of losing what you have, you don't become wealthy, it's that simple.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:08:18 2018 No.11088266

>>11088113
Communism isn't a leveling of /all/ kinds of status. It's the leveling of class privilege, of capital over labor. Indeed, there will still be elites in communism, and those with higher status of various kinds.

The profit motive is precisely not "you reap what you sow", you throw your money into a mutual fund, you did nothing to earn the dividends besides the legal status afforded to you.

also, In communist bloc countries wage differentials still existed and there was still hierarchy that was expressed in what people got. It just so happened this was a military and bureaucratic hierarchy (of which capitalist countries also have), and those with higher status had access to better goods.

>>11088205
Automation is already a part of Marx's theory. The whole point was that as more and more automation occurred workers should have more free time instead of just leading to mass unemployment.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:09:20 2018 No.11088276 >>11088205 Agreed. Additionally crypto can be the final piece of the puzzle to BTFO Marxism once and for all

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:12:31 2018 No.11088308

>>11088205
In an ideal world, those who cannot survive and adapt will perish, leaving the world free for exploitation by those with the means to do so.
Unfortunately, UBI will most likely be the only alternative to crisis on an unfathomable global scale. Fortunately, it creates the perfect conditions for a perpetual underclass of consumers. Perfect conditions for those with the ability to rise above the herd.
The marxist supposes that class consciousness will rise to a crisis point, eventually leading to the workers seizing the means of production and redistributing the wealth so unjustly hoarded by this new cognitive elite and old money. What's more, he supposes that he will be the vanguard of the revolution. A falsehood I'm afraid, just like your fascination with Marxism. Eventually you will grow to see that the masses do not need to be saved. They need to be exploited. Conditions have never been better for the Occident. Ambitious and prudent individuals have the world open to them. You don't even need capital - you just need brains.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:14:23 2018 No.11088326

>>11088245
What you're actually referring to is the uncertainty of investment. This will exist regardless of how investment is coordinated. You're assigning an ethical label to a certain incentive structure, but this structure has its limits.

The technical innovations, production, is all done by workers who sometimes risk their own life and limb. They risk loosing all of what they have and certainly don't become wealthy in the way capitalists do from it.

>>11088276
HA

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:17:35 2018 No.11088369 >>11088308 Ah yes, smart people like you with your pretentious purple prose

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:23:50 2018 No.11088448

>>11088326
It's nothing to do with uncertainty of investment. I think you need to stop trying to impress /biz/ by regurgitating Marxist rubbish you've read that has no relevance.

You must be insufferable at parties, if you actually get invited to any, I suspect not.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:23:53 2018 No.11088449

>>11088266
Your first line contradicts itself. You claim it's a leveling of class privilege, then state that there will still be elites in communism? The hierarchy you speak of is familiar to me, and I am surprised you mentioned it, as most marxists skirt this completely. For reference, my grandfather held a senior position in the Red Army and enjoyed a privileged life (TV, car, nice house - all of superior quality to, and granted to him long before, others).
Anyway, let's expand upon this. This is why marxism is inherently flawed. This is why it will never again see the light of day. Hierarchy is innate and inescapable. The modern, non-violent expression of dominance and hierarchy is class. Capitalism is the only socio-economic theory that enables one to non-violently rise in the hierarchy of man while collateral benefits are bestowed upon society at large. In short: the invisible hand.
As regards automation and free time... Is that not the case? Are you forced to work or starve? People work because they want to have more. Because of pecuniary emulation and the profit motive.
>>11088276
Yes. Crypto will finally allow us to break the chains of taxation.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:29:20 2018 No.11088497

>>11088449
As I tried to explain, there exists heirarchies without class. A 1st place winner in a track competition is not in a different class than the 2nd place winner, they do not have a fundamentally different relationship to the means of production.

>Is that not the case? Are you forced to work or starve?
The process of wealth production vastly increases with automation, and yet, in capitalism this "free time" just means immiseration. People work because there is no alternative "livelihood".

>Crypto will finally allow us to break the chains of taxation.
Capitalism cannot exist without the state. You break its power, so goes your class privilege, and you destine the world to personal violence as the method of domination.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:44:44 2018 No.11088632

If you are poor faggot in todays economy, it is because you are some combo of brainlet and autist, and are incapable of delivering value to your fellow man.
>i flip burgers, give me a living wage
Sorry, a shitty pre made burger is just not worth that much to me. Im surprised your boss is even willing to pay you minimum wage when that means dealing with an entitled sac of shit.
>i can fix your house electrical system, give me a living wage
Oh my anon, ive been looking for someone with your skillset, let me pay you $75/hr for your expertise.

Its literally that simple. You can teach yourself how to wire a house on youtube and sell your labor as a handyman in the US and be in the top 1% of wage earners globally.

>>11088326

You dont know anything about investment or business. You couldnt handle the stress and resposibility of putting your lifes work on the line or being reponsible for delivering other peoples livelyhood on a weekly basis. I know this because behind every skinnyfat socialist is a weak person who wants to be coddled by a replacement parent in the form of a soulless state tyranny.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:46:15 2018 No.11088648 >>11088497 >Capitalism cannot exist without the state Then explain why grey and black markets function outside the states control

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:46:20 2018 No.11088651 >>11080928 >dat undergrad zoomer who is easily brainwashed

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:51:52 2018 No.11088698
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>You dont know anything about investment or business. You couldnt handle the stress and resposibility of putting your lifes work on the line or being reponsible for delivering other peoples livelyhood on a weekly basis. I know this because behind every skinnyfat socialist is a weak person who wants to be coddled by a replacement parent in the form of a soulless state tyranny.

Amen.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:56:16 2018 No.11088735

>>11088326
>The technical innovations, production, is all done by workers who sometimes risk their own life and limb.

First off, your mindset is stuck in the 19th century. In terms of safety, we've gone very far. Second, they're doing their jobs exchange for money and security. If they're willing to take the risk and handle the innovation and production themselves, they can quit their jobs and start their own businesses and make their own ideas become reality, as many workers have done. This is how the tech boom in Silicon Valley started. An asshole of a boss mistreated his workers, then the workers realized they could apply their talents in pursuing their own dreams.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 14:58:18 2018 No.11088760

>>11081944

All communists in the US and Europe are middle class whites. Nomwhites are generically predisposed to be communist ant. It's honestly not their fault though. They've been brainwashed into thinking communism is some kind of utopia and the other thing separating us from world peace are the greedy capitalists. They don't believe that there won't be any agriculture, forced labor camps or mass murders by the government.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 15:04:33 2018 No.11088820

>>11088497
>As I tried to explain, there exists heirarchies without class. A 1st place winner in a track competition is not in a different class than the 2nd place winner, they do not have a fundamentally different relationship to the means of production.

Regardless of your definitions, it's still class separation in practice. Bad analogy too, the first and second place winners obviously have different level of respect. In communist countries, both former and existing, the elites and high level members of the party enjoyed privileges not enjoyed by the common people, like having first dibs on food and services. Those in charge of distributing resources could choose who to give the vital resources like food to. Because of nepotism and human cruelty, a lot of people simply can't get the resources they need so they resort to black markets or simply die. In capitalism, you just need money to buy food.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 15:05:44 2018 No.11088829 >>11088651 This isn't an "Atlas Shrugged" thread, anon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 15:06:38 2018 No.11088838 >>11080928 i like economics, anon. thanks for book suggestion.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 15:12:19 2018 No.11088893

>>11088497
>>11088497
>Capitalism cannot exist without the state. You break its power, so goes your class privilege, and you destine the world to personal violence as the method of domination.

Hierarchies can exist without the state. This exist in the animal world too. There's always a pecking order. This phenomena is named after the action that chickens use. They peck each other violently to assert dominance. Those at the top get better privileges while those at the bottom get very little or nothing. Are you going argue that this behavior constitutes a state too?

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 15:18:54 2018 No.11088947

>>11088369
Ironically, in the past communist regimes, conscientious communists were purged by the state as being enemies of communism. People like the anon you're replying to would be second in line to go once communists establish power.

Persecution order:
1st group: wealthy/privileged class
2nd group: conscientious communists who sees problems with the new gov't
3rd group: middle class and anyone else who complains.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 15:46:14 2018 No.11089241 quick reminder that marx never worked a day in his life

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 15:49:09 2018 No.11089279 >>11089241 He's deplorable. Doesn't make his work bad.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 16:58:03 2018 No.11089952 File: 115 KB, 800x624, 800px-Venezuela_Export_Treemap.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11086606 The major industries are nationalized: oil, steel, cement, rice, etc. You only need to control the industries that generate the most revenue.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 17:19:36 2018 No.11090163

>>11088497
Can I ask you one thing? Will a 130 well educated man spend his money or time the same way a 90 IQ man will?

This unsolvable problem will inevitably create classes.

This is the fundamental flaw of communism. It is not possible, if not completely authoritarian, but we've all seen how that ends.

Communism is only possible in a perfect world, governed by an even more perfect ruler.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 17:57:36 2018 No.11090514

>>11080943
>Thinks /biz/ hasn't read this.
>Thinks Marx is the greatest economist evar
This is crap though. Marx was a terrible economist & his theories were soundly debunked by both the failure of communism throughout history & serious theoretical issues. His failure to provide an alternative mechanism to the free market vis a vis the pricing problem alone dooms communism. Stop engaging in hero worship & read another book or 10. Have you read Mein Kampf or Siege yet?

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 18:17:18 2018 No.11090695

>>11090514
I'm surprised this thread is still here. Judging by most of the replies in this thread, no, I don't think most people here have read it.

>Marx isn't worth reading because communism didn't work
>read Mein Kampf

I've got some bad news for you anon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 19:43:31 2018 No.11091414 >>11090163 >>11087591

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 20:36:33 2018 No.11091815 File: 6 KB, 295x200, 1524904864496.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >americans thinking intelligence is quantifiable into a single number and throwing it around in every argument they have everytime

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 20:42:23 2018 No.11091864 >>11091815 So how come Africans can't into agriculture or civilization?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 20:44:37 2018 No.11091883 >>11091815 It is quantifiable to a single number. Sorry, nobody likes it. See the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 20:45:54 2018 No.11091889 >>11087016 The fact that you fucking commie pieces of shit are still alive means my ancestors didn't do enough to purge your faggotry from existence.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 20:48:10 2018 No.11091907 File: 343 KB, 1024x576, download.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11080943 T. Psychology 1st year student

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 20:51:30 2018 No.11091929 >>11091815 > G is real > Muh Cochran It does grow tiring

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:02:07 2018 No.11092004 >>11091815 >Coping for being dumb by claiming that intelligence is not quantifiable and everyone has a genius hiding inside of them. If you're stupid, you're stupid. No amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that fact.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:02:35 2018 No.11092010 >>11080928 labor theory of value = no good, Marxists attempt to handwave this away with "social labor" but this doesn't really solve anything. There are basically no Marxist economic models. It's shit.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:36:10 2018 No.11092261

>>11088113
I don’t known why I was expecting anything intelligent, but this actually is a mentally challenged reply with 0 historical analysis whatsoever.

>muh tragedy of the commons
>muh profit motive

Look at our society you dingus. Take a good hard look at our culture of narcissism — the potential lost. This is your profit motive. Capitalism will bring us to the lowest common denominator because in a globalized capitalist world, all the world’s economy is a race to the bottom.

>>11087026
>claims Marxism is disproved
>supports Austrian economics an equally heterodox theory of economy

Why don’t you man up and admit you just can’t read anything because you’re a pathetic libertarian edgelord? Pathetic manchild.

To think that capitalism is the best humanity can do it, and to think that there is no system that will SUPERCEDE capitalism — I.e a commons of some kind — is actually autism. Capitalism for 1000 years. Can’t wait to suck Bezos dick while I sleep in my wagecage. Fucking stupid faggots on this board, I swear

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:42:39 2018 No.11092315
File: 649 KB, 750x975, C227A106-0281-473B-9CDA-C09AE1A87D32.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Someday we’ll wake up from the nightmare of history that brought us to today’s capitalism and maybe we can redeem whatever left of this putrid world that’s been ravaged so violently. It’s a shame what was a lost and what will continue to be destroyed for decades to come.

Until then, enjoy the human zoo. Wouldn’t be possible without all the useful idiots.

Imagine, there are people on this board that unironically think that capitalism is the best humanity can do. That it is the most efficient system —a system based on crises of overproduction (a concept inconceivable before capitalism).

This is the best we can do. Well then, we are truly fucked.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:44:15 2018 No.11092327 >>11092261 >>11092315 Stay mad, loser.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:45:55 2018 No.11092340 >>11081035 >go to hell Settle down Dr. Peterson

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:46:25 2018 No.11092345 >>11080928 What justifies capital as a concept. How can money have any real value?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:50:55 2018 No.11092400 >>11092345 How can any property be justified as literally anyone still has access to whatever property is claimed. But what about consumption? Saying that people have no right to breathe is also absurd

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:53:23 2018 No.11092419 File: 68 KB, 971x546, 2174EDBF-ADBC-4C70-A53C-C47B43E20A46.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11092327 It’s every man for himself in this selfish consumerist world. Well, at least I have my family and bloodline.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 21:54:14 2018 No.11092424 >>11092419 The Universe will end anon, blood means nothing

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 22:02:36 2018 No.11092471

>>11092424
Wow, what an incredible opinion anon. I guess I should stop placing any value in friendships, family, or anything beyon myself because of the eventual heat death of the Universe.

Please, tell me more of your 14-year old opinions and how you love fapping to anime porn all day because “you don’t owe the world nothin!” Grow up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 22:10:16 2018 No.11092516 >>11092471 Nothing you do matters you’re life is meaningless

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 22:19:10 2018 No.11092558 >>11092471 You need to move to Cuba comrade.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 22:49:08 2018 No.11092778
File: 53 KB, 960x706, 1536725887824.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>11086493
anon, regardless of what you say, all this equates to is "with marxism, as a worker, you get paid an amount of money that is not reflective of the real, actual value of your labor, and [very critically] as an employer you have to give money where it is not due"—and this, no matter what you can possibly say, is clearly the case
nobody could care less how marx "interprets" capitalism—marxism is useless middleman that gets in the way of people doing business, and when put to practice, it fails so hard that communist governments have to steal from or threaten and demand goods from those who don't live under communism so that their population doesn't starve to death

>>11086606
>70% "private" economy, in which all of the private companies are subject to fucking national votes on how they have to handle their resources and what they produce
>goods can be, and are seized at will by the government
>add to this, taxation system is an enormous clusterfuck that takes weeks upon weeks upon weeks to work with when, as a business, the time comes to file your taxes
also sorry to post a youtube video response but this is just toooooo good, what with how info-dense it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiaptcjg5UE
the bottom line is is that the country is a typical bureaucratic socialist clusterfuck, and the "venezuela is private" meme argument that commies keep trying to force is reeeeeeeally ridiculous

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 22:56:56 2018 No.11092841 >>11092778 Venezuela is crackpot socialism https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/08/25/hocus-pocus-economics-in-venezuela

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:04:38 2018 No.11092911 >>11080928 back to gulag faggot.

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:04:57 2018 No.11092914
File: 691 KB, 750x975, pee.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Capitalism is a failed experiment because it makes the average person a fucking locked up animal that does tricks for peanuts.

Capitalism does not bring happiness, ask your average wagie, if they are happy with their life.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:16:57 2018 No.11092981 >>11080928 I think it’s worth the read just to strengthen my belief that fascism is the only way forward.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:23:16 2018 No.11093026 >>11080943 just graduated economics?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:25:56 2018 No.11093049 >>11081329 is that a coin? will it moon?

Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:28:14 2018 No.11093065
File: 182 KB, 1000x1000, opposites-attract-comic0.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>11092914
>thinking that this is free market capitalism, or anything else other than insidious socialism in the form of corporatism/crony capitalism/whatever you wanna call the collusion of the state (and its presidence over law) and the colluding entities in private enterprise
i'm way too exhausted to debate you on this, but if you think that the way that amazon treats their employees is the definition of "the failure of the capitalist experiment", then you need to consider that jeff bezos literally bought the washington post to push anti-free market socialist propaganda

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:30:53 2018 No.11093092 >>11087130 hey any bids on that 10 year old hole? I want to bid on it, I think it will be a perfect place to hide the body of etherium

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:40:50 2018 No.11093170 >>11086606 you have NEVER been to Venezuela NEVER

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:48:59 2018 No.11093227 >>11086621 just because you make fun of it doesn't mean it's not the truth

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 15 23:49:44 2018 No.11093237 >>11093065 Oh look it's another episode of "Anon confuses Free Markets with Capitalism." Reality check: Capitalists only support free markets when they aren't already rich enough to control the markets.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 00:01:30 2018 No.11093320 >>11093237 Reality check: X only support Y until Y gets in their way.

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 00:15:52 2018 No.11093427

>>11091864
>>11091883
>>11092004
>all these americans don't realize IQ was developed by the french to identify underperforming children as early as possible in order to improve their situation

there are unironically better measures of intelligence these days, but it's not IQ

Also high ratings on conservative belief scales in representative US and UK populations is inversely correlated with IQ.

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 00:23:33 2018 No.11093478

No one on /biz/ can ever refute Marx. They just use edgy ancap memes. Marx was undoubtedly one of the greatest economists ever to live. Any economist, regardless of the school they subscribe to, would admit that Marx's analysis of capitalism is unmatched.

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 00:25:09 2018 No.11093495

>>11093478
>Marx was undoubtedly one of the greatest economists ever to live

Didn't have a job.
Thinks it's ok to steal everything from useful people and gives it to useless people like himself.

There are deserving poor - most of them are. Their consumption will always match their income.

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 01:06:37 2018 No.11093725
File: 612 KB, 858x786, 1533441646955.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>11093237
you think that you're the one >reality checking< me on this concept
reality check: it doesn't matter what the largest producers of any given thing would support in the way of governance over the market (that would adversely affect existing or new competitors) if there were no capacity for legal governance over how the market operates (usually apart from pretty typical principles of what constitutes liberty, or the NAP)
if a company, no matter how big, does not continue to make or support something that people will buy or use, they don't have an income
whether they're making an income or not, it's in their best interests for the market in which their currency has value to be as strong as possible

especially with the presence of crypto, we're going to get to the point where if you can't be competitive without using funds that—through one means or another—were acquired through taxation, then you're gonna just get destroyed
the current untouchably massive corporations that are only untouchable (and only continue to exist) as a result of cronyism and government protection are going to get shattered to such fine dust that the products and services that they provide then (and now) will be totally abandoned as a result of their unpopularity to alternatives in less than five years from that point.
this decade and the decade preceding it will largely be remembered obscured in an unsettling haze—for this has been a highly strange and unnatural time.

>>11093427
>i don't want to address you or your particular arguments, so i'll point out that people who claim to be conservatives score lower average IQs
collectivism is so sad. can we get one equal national iq score

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 01:36:12 2018 No.11093850 >>11093725 Ancap detected. Anyone with an IQ above 130 knows that socialism is the superior economic system.

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 02:17:41 2018 No.11094053

>>11088893
This is more of an anthropological argument: When does a tribal arrangement become a state? How does the arrnagement of private property transform ownership into capitalism?
History suggests the transition from tribalism to imperialism takes place through a period of feudalism. It is during this time that land is essentially consolidated by a single lineage. Naturally this would suggest in westeen europe at least, capitalism is a natural product of feudalism. It is an advanced form of feudalism.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 02:28:45 2018 No.11094108 File: 231 KB, 643x537, 1989B267-4748-4B6D-91D4-038072ECFFE0.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11093850 >uhhhhh anyone with IQ higher than [input number here] knows that

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 02:42:42 2018 No.11094198

>>11094053
You have a loaded question there and you skipped a step. How did people form tribes in the first place? Why did they form tribes in the first place? Why did tribes attack each other? Why did people create weapons? These problems didn't disappear with the advent of more complicated societies. They only got scaled up. There was plenty of resources and land back then, so there the argument about owning the resource of production and consolidating land falls flat.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 02:46:49 2018 No.11094223 >>11094198 means of production*

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 03:32:42 2018 No.11094526

>>11092315
>he thinks the current system is capitalism when it is based on fractional reserve banking and keynsian money printing, both entirely socialist practices

Moron, if you actually knew anything about either Marxism or Austrian economics, you'd know that one of the first things Marx set out to establish in his communist manifesto was the creation of a central bank, and that the key criticism of the current system of cronyism and socialism for the elite by Austrians is that we do not have a system of sound money which is directly the cause of overproduction of low quality shit and mindless consumerism

But no, your an edgy sperglord who regurgitates shit he's heard from hippy faggots at his college.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 03:33:07 2018 No.11094528 >>11094198 Thats goes back to prehistory. Basically who the fuck knows. And resources are not "plenty" you fag. Even in like 2000bc there was only one major source of copper in the near east

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 03:45:26 2018 No.11094594

>>11094528
People lived fine without copper back then. You don't need copper to hunt, farm, fish, etc. Look at the Mayans, Aztecs, and Native Americans. They did fine without copper. So I ask again, why did people join together into groups if there's no resource shortage?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 04:20:43 2018 No.11094784 >>11094594 No bitch, all those societies had copper items

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 04:32:59 2018 No.11094849

>>11092261
Your replies grew progressively worse towards the end here. At this point you're not even providing any substance. You're just resorting to base insults and casting a wide net.
>>11092315
And here we come to the real you. A zealot, irrevocably reconciled to preach the gospel of extreme socialism...
"If only everyone were as enlightened as I!" he says, sighing deeply as he sips his decaffeinated onions maple latte with cream, gazing through the window, on which branding is superimposed, at the hustle and bustle of worker slaves outside.
The problem with people like you is that you believe you're some sort of superhero, that the world needs saving and the only way it can happen is if you break a few eggs. The only thing that needs saving is you.
Capitalism is the most efficiency system because the market enforces creative destruction. Those who cannot compete, die! I can argue, like you do when claiming that true marxism or true socialism has never been implemented, that likewise true capitalism has never been implemented, because governments full of bleeding heart retards like yourself want to prop up failing companies to 'save' the public. Unbeknownst to them, fate is a harsh mistress and it only delays and exaggerates the problem.
One day Marxism and Socialism will be relegated to the history books. It won't be taught, as the market will not be able to provide enough consumers of such drivel to support the proliferation of such poison.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 04:34:53 2018 No.11094862 File: 33 KB, 800x800, sip pepe.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11094784 You have no argument as expected. All you could do is just regurgitate commie propaganda like a mindless NPC.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 04:57:38 2018 No.11095010 >>11094862 Fuck off brainlet

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 04:59:49 2018 No.11095023 >>11095010 Get a job.

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 05:11:06 2018 No.11095076
File: 107 KB, 500x357, 46371693-FB15-4C94-B0BA-BE2F13377C50.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>11094849
It’s amazing how we’ve lowered the standard for culture and idealism with each passing decade.

Your post is cute but pointless. I don’t claim superiority. If having an argument to make with convictions — if saying simply “we can do better than this” —makes me an elitist, then that’s got the be the stupidest standard imaginable. You claim capitalism’s inherent destruction is good because it leads to “creativity,” funny enough you assume that you will be on the winning end of this creative destruction. Hilarious. How can anyone critique society without living in it? What am, supposed to live in a cardboard box and not eat, sleep, do anything at all and only THEN will I have the purity to be able to “critique” society? How many times does this terrible argument need to be regurgitated ad nauseum.

Not only have I lived and worked in the world for a long time, I have no generational wealth, I made all my money myself like a mule working. Countless others, the majority of us all, work hours just as long as 40 years ago but productivity has exploded while hours worked and wages have been stagnant. What life satisfaction, to say this is the best there is... pull the wool over your eyes more stupid faggot

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 05:13:49 2018 No.11095089 File: 159 KB, 1280x720, BA1AD2EB-3F14-4254-81AD-42085C5D4C75.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11095023 Great advice. Everyone should actually get a job. Actually, once you get a job, the validity of Marxism becomes even more obvious.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 05:17:53 2018 No.11095116 Basic Economics is all you need about economics.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 05:18:19 2018 No.11095119 >>11095089 Or start a business, whatever. Just don't ask society to pick up the tab for your living costs because of your NEETdom.

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 05:28:47 2018 No.11095179

>>11095076
For somebody who claims to have worked for an international bank and studied economics you certainly seem to be lacking in core subject areas. I've tried to skirt around more serious economic terminology and concepts, both for the benefit of /biz/ and because I don't really want to get autistic about things. Creative destruction is an economic concept... search 'Scumpeterian Destruction' and see for yourself.
You speak like a philosopher, not an economist. Perhaps that's your calling? I suggest you read up on more modern interpretations of religion and philosophy. It may just help you abandon these economic falsehoods and pursue a more 'natural' path to the betterment of man.
Anyway - no, you're not supposed to live in a cardboard box and work in a cage. You're supposed to make use of the opportunities available to you as a citizen of (I assume) a 'Western' nation-state. These opportunities are freedom and liberty, allowing you to select such occupation as is suitable to your wants and needs, and is available to you based on your skill-set.
If you will not survive and adapt then you, too, will be destroyed by market forces. I would feel bad, but the sooner the market relegates people like you to death the sooner the capital employed in providing a subsistence wage to such losers can be diverted towards productive causes, hopefully providing me some economic rents. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 05:31:51 2018 No.11095191

>>11092778
It's funny how they always claim they reject all these bolivarian socialist movements, yet they always talk good about Chavez, che Guevara and Castro.

If they really believed it's not socialism then they should consider them traitors for gaining power and then smearing the name of their ideology, but no, not even a bit of criticism...

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 05:34:34 2018 No.11095205 File: 94 KB, 249x186, 1457649696607.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11080943

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 06:00:17 2018 No.11095320 >>11081669 >what are worker coops

Anonymous Sun Sep 16 06:13:57 2018 No.11095376
File: 459 KB, 1331x896, tmp_14163-139557613187150426554.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

> Countless others, the majority of us all, work hours just as long as 40 years ago but productivity has exploded while hours worked and wages have been stagnant.

I'm curious why you blame 'capitalism' for this? I think on further research you will discover it is fiat money printing (a keynsian and fundamentally socialist doctrine) that has robbed you of your purchasing power and your free time, aswell as financed multiple needless wars.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 06:31:07 2018 No.11095444 File: 214 KB, 1200x1598, get the helicopter.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >this thread

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 07:03:54 2018 No.11095582 >>11095320 a delusional fantasy

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 07:05:59 2018 No.11095590 >>11095376 >not true capitalism

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 07:07:54 2018 No.11095602 >>11084909 I'm curious about which parts of it you disagree with, and in what way.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 07:11:27 2018 No.11095624 >>11095602 >capital isnt consolidated at the top >barriers to entry are lower than ever >you dont need capital to succeed Literaly everything

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 07:23:57 2018 No.11095679 >>11095624 Yeah, when reading the post I was thinking that this man lives in the world of /biz/. >your a smart guy, become a billionaire off of a single flappy bird app >your a smart guy, but an altcoin low, sell it high, instant millionaire

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 08:58:45 2018 No.11096176 >>11088648 this.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 16 09:04:03 2018 No.11096199 >>11082010 kek

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/biz/ - Business & Finance