/biz/ - Business & Finance

[Anonymous No.11034516]

Lets talk about trading bots

Gekko/Gunbot/Haasbot/Zenbot and others.

Anyone here making money with bots? How hard is it to get started? Anyone here code their own bot?

[Anonymous No.11035177]

Cmon there has to be someone here thats used bots before

[Anonymous No.11035216]

>>11034516
only thing that works is a market maker bot
which you program yourself
otherwise just trade manually

[Anonymous No.11035218]

There is a pretty important reason there are no replies

[Anonymous No.11035286]

I use Gunbot. I like it a lot. I average about .75-1% return on my trade stack daily.

Fairly easy to use. Took me about 2-3 weeks to really get used to it.

Also they’re coming out with a new version here hopefully soon which will have a ton of improvements. I would definitely recommend it

[Anonymous No.11035323]

>>11034516
Any bot that uses traditional TA will get rekt when a black swan happens. If it were so easy, haasbot, gunbot, etc. wouldn't be for sale. Think about it. You are a software dev, you come up with some combination of ones and zeros that spits out more money than you put in. It's like economic perpetual motion. Whadaya do? Sell it? Yeah fuck right. You put it to work and get rich. Now imagine you put something together that while it doesn't actually make money, it sounds plausible to retards that might buy it. Well, now that's a different situation altogether. This you sell to various and sundry. Is this making sense, anon? Do you get it now?

[Anonymous No.11035339]

>>11035323
>Whadaya do? Sell it? Yeah fuck right. You put it to work and get rich.

Why not both?

[Anonymous No.11035362]

Cryptohopper, daily 2 to 3% profits.

[Anonymous No.11035384]

>>11035362
What strategy do you use primarily?

[Anonymous No.11035406]

>>11035339
Because if you let everybody else get in on the same trades you're going for, you ruin it. For any winning strategy, there is only so much liquidity in the market to work it. If everybody starts buying in then the entry for the strategy starts inching up and if everybody starts selling at the strategie's exit, the exit price starts inching down. And finally, it's over. The strategy doesn't work anymore and the market is more efficient. Any strategy worth selling is worth more keeping to yourself. Unless it doesn't actually work. That you sell.
>>11035286
>>11035362
If either of these clowns were telling the truth, it would mean they have been at it for less than a month and got lucky or they're both billionaires. Run the numbers on 2-3% a day for a few months.

[Anonymous No.11035407]

>>11035339
because the more people you sell it to, the slimmer your own gains through trading get.

[Anonymous No.11035427]

>>11035286
>i figured out how to 50x my money every year
>let me sell it for a couple hundo to some randos on the interwebz

there are anons that actually believe this ^

lmao

[Anonymous No.11035479]

>>11035406
>>11035407
What you’re both saying is a logical conclusion but you don’t understand the scale.

Consider that probably 80-90% are doing relatively small buy/sell orders, like less than .01 BTC or .5 ETH. Then factor in there’s dozens of exchanges covered by all of the bots, probably 50+ different buy/sell strategies with customizations, and dozens of different coins to trade on.

It’s highly unlikely the builders profits are getting hurt significantly.

[Anonymous No.11035505]

>>11035427
Yeah I guess I’m a dumbass

[Anonymous No.11035596]

>>11035479
Au contraire. Consider depending on your cunt of origin, local kyc laws, language barriers, exchange volumes, etc. at most you are limited to 10-20 good trading spots and that's where everybody already is. Binance, Bittrex, HitBTC, Cryptopia, Kucoin, the usual suspects. Now, even for a working strategy, you aren't dumping a ton of money into any one trade simply because if the market isn't going to let such a glaring inefficiency exist. There are too many eyes on this stuff. So your exchanges and trade volumes are limited by practicality. Next, if your bot works really well, you'll be in 6 figures in no time. Once you get to 200k plus, the liquidity issues become very very real. And nobody wants to stop at 200k as you haven't made it yet.
As far as the configuring goes, this is that part I mentioned about make it "plausible" despite no working strategy. It looks complicated, you see the options, Bollinger Bands, EMA, etc. and you want to believe. It's fools gold, anon and you've been sold a dream. Not only will you waste your money but there is opportunity cost. But you sound convinced so give it a shot if you want.

[Anonymous No.11035610]

I’m making about $250 a day off a $25,000 initial investment on Bitmex. 1-3% returns every day for past 30 days.

[Anonymous No.11035618]

>>11035323
>>11035406
Ok stop you don’t know what you are talking about. We’re talking about market making.

[Anonymous No.11035642]

>>11034516
I recently coded my own trade bot for 5 exchanges (I only use yobit, cryptopia and koinex) for arbitage trading during PnD. I go to discord severs and wait for it to start and then suck the life out of them.

[Anonymous No.11035655]

>>11035596
Trading is a meme.

[Anonymous No.11035664]

>>11034516
How can I code my own bot using Python?

[Anonymous No.11035677]

>>11035596
Well first my dream is making money...see>>11035505

Second, you are correct, the market does put limitations on you. There’s no way you can exponentially grow with any of these bots because the larger your trade orders the lower likelihood they get filled. But again, you listed off 6 exchanges. Each of them have how many coins actively trading? My point is with the thousands of different combinations of coins, exchanges, and strategies, there’s enough to go around.

[Anonymous No.11035684]

>>11034516
Im actually developing it at my job. Ama

[Anonymous No.11035691]

Tried making a profitable market maker forever, but I think I'm just getting outskilled.
I can work on simple rules, but not complex time series analysis or neural networks. Sucks really.

[Anonymous No.11035693]

Reggie Bot. Ask me for more info or call me a shill I don't really care but it's making me money.

[Anonymous No.11035705]

>>11035479
listen.
if you had a bot that would make returns of around 50% a year. what would you do?
1) sell it and ruin it over time
2) take as much loan as you can find and use your private software?

its quite obvious isnt it

[Anonymous No.11035707]

>>11034516

Yes, it was great before the Bart era. The barts though don't consistently occur in exactly the same way or in line with a particular indictator. And they spike so much they blow through the usual safeguards. I switched it off and went back to manual trading for now. Shame, was doing a nice consistent 1% to 2% per day. Would like to try out a market maker not and an arbitrage bot at some point.

[Anonymous No.11035712]

>>11035684
For retail purchase or company use?

[Anonymous No.11035713]

>>11035691
>>11035707
I had reggie bot running during those last two barts a couple days ago and it did just fine.

[Anonymous No.11035730]

>>11035664

If you need to ask that question, forget it.

[Anonymous No.11035743]

>>11035713

Good luck. Wait til it's just filled a bunch of orders in the wrong direction and enjoy the bags.

[Anonymous No.11035753]

>>11035618
Let me translate
>I pick up pennies in front of steamrollers, market making in a market as volatile as crypto can't lose. Bart is a meme.
The reality is, yes, you will make your miniscule percentages with market making. Then you lose dollars on the next bart down which wipes out your earnings. How you think this is some special strategy I don't know but you're wrong.
>>11035677
Don't base your decisions on some random screenshot. You're gonna do this, I'd suggest starting real small, and uh, see how it goes.
>>11035713
Give it a few months before tooting your horn.

[Anonymous No.11035764]

>>11035705
Well I guess I purchased a working product from dumbasses then. Lucky me.

And again, as I pointed out to the other Anon, the market diminishes your profit as your trading stack gets higher. I can easily get a 1 ETH order filled but I’ll get partial fills on 5 ETH. If you took out a loan as you said, you wouldn’t get the full benefit of the money you’re using to trade with. That’s also why I know I won’t become a billionaire next month because my profits are capped at a certain point.

[Anonymous No.11035770]

>>11035743
how? that's what I'm telling you. both barts it was up to %350 -ROE and then was able to close both in profit.

that's how it works, it spends about 10 hours in a negative position and then closes you in about 1% profit at very end.

liquidation price is like $200 for a position sized around $10k.

>>11035753
not tooting horn just want to talk about it. either get called a SHILL or people have no idea what a market making bot is.
what are the downsides and risks here? have you used reggie bot before?
thinking about adding to my stack.

[Anonymous No.11035778]

>>11035753
>Don't base your decisions on some random screenshot

That was my phone...

[Anonymous No.11035786]

>>11035770
>that's how it works, it spends about 10 hours in a negative position and then closes you in about 1% profit at very end.
horrible lol

[Anonymous No.11035795]

>>11034516
i actually make really good money on a daily basis using the cryptohopper bot doing arbitrage

[Anonymous No.11035797]

>>11035786
>horrible lol
why?

[Anonymous No.11035806]

>>11035764
are you saying if I buy the same program and use the same strategy with 5 ETH stacks, you wouldn't be able to get your orders filled?

[Anonymous No.11035808]

>>11035795
Which plan are you using?

[Anonymous No.11035817]

>>11035797
Generally as far as the theory goes, markt makers should work to keep their inventory small.
The way you describe it, it just gets hit on a really big move on the wrong side, and then spends 10 hours averaging down until it can finally close at a profit? Huge recipe for disaster.

[Anonymous No.11035821]

>>11035795
its important to note i give my bot 300 ETH to trade with. the more you allow the bot to trade, the higher your gains are obviously. its worth it in the long run.

[Anonymous No.11035837]

>>11035808
i pay $100/mo for my hopper sub, its worth it and pays for itself. there are tons of settings you can use and its a very active community. the main discord and trader discord for hopper are very useful.

[Anonymous No.11035841]

>>11035806
this makes no sense since the orders are spread out in tiny tiny buy orders of like $25 max over a period of 12 or more hours

>>11035817
it's a market making bot so it places small ($25) orders with cross leverage while opening counter trades and keeping a take profit stop open. So after about 10 hours you will have built up a position of about $2,000 after putting out a "grid" of buy/sell orders.

It operates off of volume and volatility.

[Anonymous No.11035856]

>>11035770
you are admitting you just got lucky since the markets recovered. you would've be fucked up badly if it didnt. pure luck you are still above water, nice bot you've got there. hope you dont pay a lot for it

[Anonymous No.11035868]

also if youre american, dont let your bot do more than $600 individual trades, any higher than that and u have to pay taxes on it.

[Anonymous No.11035870]

I have a working swing trader bot. Come at me plebs.

[Anonymous No.11035871]

>>11035384
Signals, bought couple of different ones. Im not claiming it's huge profits but its not bad for basicly not doing much really.

[Anonymous No.11035873]

>>11035856
huh? I just want to talk about market making bots and I don't think you know what the fuck you're talking about

[Anonymous No.11035882]

>>11035806
Not impossible, no, but less likely

[Anonymous No.11035896]

If you're done fighting over nothing

anyone got some simple backtesting projects/packages for nodejs? (also some template bot would be appreciated as well)
I have some ideas but don't wanna spend a couple days writing boiler plate code for this stuff

>>11035870
this
wanna elaborate a little? not strategy obviously

[Anonymous No.11035899]

>>11035841
1) your strategy is ultimately based on luck
2) you wont get orders filled

pick your poison

[Anonymous No.11035900]

>>11035821
How many pairs do you run?

[Anonymous No.11035911]

>>11035899
you don't even know what the strategy is. are you saying all market maker bots don't work? what are you using?

[Anonymous No.11035921]

>>11035882
so you are profiting on the chance that Im not buying the bot, or someone isnt stepping up their game? yeah.. long term profit for sure

[Anonymous No.11035923]

>>11035896
Lots of fucking idiots (>>11035899) in this thread.

Here's some resources that I used but I would also suggest checking out ReggieBot (even if just to see how they run trades). Three day trial is free and weekly is about $25.

[Anonymous No.11035930]

>>11035900
ETH/BTC
ETH/XMR
ETH/LINK

the major rule to follow is that you dont let the bot trade anything you wouldnt want to bag hold anyways. obviously when the market is like it is you have to set stop losses so the bot isnt bag holding for too long and can buy more, etc. dyor of course its fun as hell and actually makes good gains once you figure it all out

[Anonymous No.11035931]

>>11035923
>https://www.reddit.com/r/BitMEX/comments/7l3aae/is_the_sample_bitmex_market_maker_bot_profitable/

[Anonymous No.11035940]

>>11035770
>it spends about 10 hours in a negative position
What I'm telling you is inevitably you will find yourself in an infinitely long negative position. Eventually the price will go down and it will not go back up or it will take so long that the money you have in the position would have been better off in a buy and hold strategy from the very beginning. You need to wait a while and see how this works longer term before you claim it is a winner. After at least 6 months, calculate your gains vs. just holding and if you are up, congrats. Then see if you can repeat the success long enough to make it.
>>11035778
>That was my phone...
And? Let us know when you have a million in your account and your strategy beat the market long term.
>>11035795
Arbitraging what? Between exchanges? 3-way arbitrage on the same exchange?
>>11035806
>are you saying if I buy the same program and use the same strategy with 5 ETH stacks, you wouldn't be able to get your orders filled?
If the bot works, you won't be at 5 ETH stack for long, that's (part of) the point.

tl;dr Every one of these bots, be it market making, bollinger bands, whatever will get rekt on a market downturn. If you have a working strategy, you keep it to yourself so any bot you bought is by definition worthless, even if your bot "works", you have to compare the gains to buy and hold which usually wins. Also, for the resident arbitrageurs, if you are holding multiple coins on different exchanges, great, but are you beating the market, and if you're trying to move coins around, all it takes is one "wallet in maintenance" to rek your shit. Good luck.

[Anonymous No.11035941]

>>11035911
no I'm not saying all the bots dont work. I assume you are also long on BTC or ETH, or at least hedged those to usd 1-1?

You opening small positions and counter trading them on take profits - is however a luck based strategy. You hope your take profits outweigh stop losses, and thats about it.

[Anonymous No.11035945]

>>11035923
>paying subscription for bots
I'm not interested in paying, I'm a code monkey looking for a shortcut

[Anonymous No.11035954]

>>11035921
Assuming you were on the same exchange, ran the same pairs, and started your bot at the EXACT same time as me (not all pairs are process simultaneously), and had the EXACT same trading strategy, and assuming that less than 10 ETHs worth would want to be purchased at that price, then yes you could hypothetically get in my way. Since that’s statistically improbable, I’m not too worried about you getting a bot.

[Anonymous No.11035962]

>>11035945
I forgot the link but here is the shortcut. Also I said you didn't have to pay. You can run it for three days without paying.

>>11035940
>infinitely long negative position
You don't know what you're talking about man. I'll ask one more time; what market making bots have you used or what parameters have you used?

[Anonymous No.11035976]

>>11035930
Sorry I might be confused but with arbitrage shouldn’t the buy/sell orders move pretty quickly? Like it’s just profiting off the difference in prices between exchanges I thought?

Also, you’re able to get fills with 100 ETH orders?

[Anonymous No.11035978]

>>11035940
amen. im with you on this. these morons are too sheep to even recognize they have been played, and are happy to pay for it.

[Anonymous No.11035981]

>>11035962
>I forgot the link but here is the shortcut.
>12 posts by this ID
That's it
I quit /biz/
you're all subhuman 20 IQ pajeets

[Anonymous No.11035990]

>>11035976
no, the bot has a max of 300 eth to buy with.
every order i keep it around $570 in USD value
this means i dont have to pay taxes on the crypto/crypto trade

[Anonymous No.11036000]

>>11035976
the bot at any given time will have several open orders. all worth $570

[Anonymous No.11036003]

H-how do you guys handle taxes?

[Anonymous No.11036011]

>>11035712
For company use. Were testing it on some emerging markets

[Anonymous No.11036015]

>>11035930
haha so all your bot trading relies on that your bags dont get heavier? posting 100% 'gain' is still underwater for you? jesus what a trading god.

[Anonymous No.11036016]

>>11036000
What tax rule is this?

[Anonymous No.11036020]

>>11035962
>>infinitely long negative position
>You don't know what you're talking about man.
Are you for real? You don't think a coin can go down and not back up? You don't think a coin can go down and stay down long enough that you would have been better off buying and holding the market? You don't know this and you ask me if I know what I'm talking about?
As an answer to your question of what bots I have used and what my parameters are, it just so happens that I built my own bot that has a few strategies I've found useful. One is kind of like market making or at least what you would call market making, the only difference is I've found a way to make it work long term. You won't find the strat on any web sites and I'm not selling. Cuz it works.

[Anonymous No.11036036]

>>11036015
Hodling also kind of relies on your bags not getting heavier...

[Anonymous No.11036048]

>>11036020
You're making a FOOL out of yourself.

[Anonymous No.11036055]

>>11036015
no i have a sell trigger set at 1.25% which starts profit trailing stop loss, if it falls below .50% after that it sells.
on avg i take home 1.1%-2.4% gains daily

[Anonymous No.11036059]

>>11035981
>>https://www.reddit.com/r/BitMEX/comments/7l3aae/is_the_sample_bitmex_market_maker_bot_profitable/

[Anonymous No.11036069]

>>11036036
and why would you hold if you are trying to trade a profit?

[Anonymous No.11036080]

>>11036055
exactly what I laid out for you - pure luck.

tell me how your gains are USD wise in a year. looking forward to it haha

[Anonymous No.11036093]

>>11036080
listen you ignorant nigger, ive been using bots for literal years. the gains are real if you arent such a turbo autist to figure out how to properly bot trade. its not fucking rocket science, its bot science.

[Anonymous No.11036113]

if you kiddos really want to make money on bots, look into interest bots @ polo and finex.
that was a free and first real bot trading tip ITT

[Anonymous No.11036114]

I coded my own bot using python. My strategy has shown to be profitable without accounting for slippage. It makes mid-term trades using combination of TA and sentiment index.
I've started messing around with neural networks recently for a possible short-term trade strategy but that's a whole nother rabbit hole to sink 1000 hours into.

Currently testing automated trading right now, but it's a very long and arduous process. every time you think you have it there's another fucking roadblock that takes 20 hours to debug. it's no wonder people get paid well over 100k/year to run these things for trading companies

[Anonymous No.11036124]

>>11036093
if you made 1% daily for 2 years you'd 1400x your money
if you would 1400x any sum above 1k$ you wouldn't be posting in this pajeet infested pot of shit
that makes you a pajeet

[Anonymous No.11036126]

>>11034516
I use a lending bot on poloniex, works pretty good.

[Anonymous No.11036133]

>>11036114
>https://medium.com/@noogin/illuminating-the-bart-pattern-in-bitcoin-the-momentum-ignition-algorithm-864e7a9949e9
Understanding these algorithms helps.

[Anonymous No.11036136]

>>11036093
chill there boi.
i've made a bot myself, and happily living off of it.
your Bot-for-rent will surely post great returns for you.
Heavy bags weighing on your back? It wont get better buddy.

[Anonymous No.11036158]

>>11036048
The only fool is the person implying market making is some kind of holy grail strategy that can't lose. That person is you. Market makers get rekt every day thinking the price is going back up enough for them to get out. It often doesn't. Simple as that. Pretending otherwise is idiotic.
>>11036093
>on avg i take home 1.1%-2.4% gains daily
>ive been using bots for literal years
Then you are a trillionaire or at least a multi multi millionaire. Except you are not. Some part of your story has to be a lie. Daily gains like that for "literal years" is beyond Warren Buffet.

I can't fucking believe this thread and all these larpers in here shilling this snake oil. Fuck man, I have my own bot I wrote from scratch but I'm not out here selling it and I can assure you, "market making" or arbitrage or whatever other bullshit Haasbot or Gunbot does is a loser. Period.

[Anonymous No.11036173]

>>11036158
>Market makers get rekt every day thinking the price is going back up enough for them to get out.
Bro this is like the most basic market making 101 shit you are talking about.
Yes. If BTC drops under $250 about 5% of my stack will get liquidated. HUGE RISK THERE LAD.

[Anonymous No.11036181]

>>11036124
hey newfag, biz made me filthy rich cause i was here when ETH was being shilled.
fuck off, board culture is who i am

[Anonymous No.11036189]

>>11036069
Well you wouldn’t. No bot has the ability to buy at the exact lowest point of the market. You’ll have plenty of negative positions but they eventually trade for profit. My bot usually clears in about 2-3 hours on average but I’ve had bags for over a week before

[Anonymous No.11036195]

>>11036133
I've read this before. It's useful but I actually considered these trades mid-term trades. For me short-term is seconds-minutes. Mid-term would be days to weeks, which is more in line with the bart pattern

[Anonymous No.11036201]

>>11034516
sold a lot of gunbot back in the days for like 2BTC but burned it all using it.

[Anonymous No.11036203]

>>11036173
if your liq price is 250 and that would risk 5%, I've got news for you.
1) you are larping
2) your whole bank roll is < 1000
3) you are probably trading < 10 usd orders that proper exchanges consider spam haha.

[Anonymous No.11036213]

>>11036181
so now your story changed from huge gains by trading, to being early investor?
make up your story already larper.

[Anonymous No.11036214]

>>11036124
If you never took profits and assuming you could fill orders of a high magnitude after a certain point, then yes. But neither are the case I would imagine

[Anonymous No.11036216]

>>11036203
You are an idiot. Holy shit I've been saying that order size is $25. Position size rarely gets above $2500 with cross leverage over a 12 hour period. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.11036228]

>>11036173
I understand the concept perfectly. What I'm saying is the profit minus the liquidations is ultimately negative. You can get lucky short term but you will lose long term if not in absolute numbers then certainly compared to the market as a whole. This is assuming you are running a traditional market making strategy where you are playing the spread or close to it. If you have some special sauce then you are proving my original point which is that, yes, there are working bots, and no, you can not buy one.

[Anonymous No.11036229]

>>11036213
stay assmad faggot. do you honestly think oldfags dont use this board? this board is where all the oldfags go, go back to >>>/b/ where you belong shithead

[Anonymous No.11036240]

>>11036228
>What I'm saying is the profit minus the liquidations is ultimately negative.
Wrong. Not even sure why you're arguing against this so hard.

[Anonymous No.11036243]

No one will sell a profitable strategy, nor give it away in text. Because the moment you do the strategy stops being profitable, fast.
Look up "variance" and "ev" if your winning at the moment with a third party strategy.

[Anonymous No.11036260]

>>11036243
Actually a volumetric based market making strategy on an exchange like Bitmex can be more valuable the more people that use it. Most markets have a behind-the-scenes market maker (like GDAX) but some (like Bitmex) still need the liquidity.

[Anonymous No.11036280]

>>11036260
Seeing as trade is zero sum, there should be a breakpoint then? We can't all get rich.

[Anonymous No.11036296]

>>11036280
>https://twitter.com/thinkingusd/status/991025348358823939?lang=en
Here's a VERY concise summary of stuff I've already posted in this thread.
This will answer your "zero-sum" question.

[Anonymous No.11036301]

>>11036216
Okay.
You say your position rarely gets bigger than 2500 with cross leverage and you are boasting > 1% daily gains? you are profiting a fiver a day? My hosting costs more than you profit

[Anonymous No.11036308]

>>11036280
Trading isn’t always zero sum. If I sold ETH right now and I bought it initially at $100 I’m making a profit. And if ETH hypothetically goes up after, the guy I sold it to will make a profit as well. Not always a loser

[Anonymous No.11036338]

>>11036240
I'm arguing against a market maker strategy being consistently profitable because it literally isn't consistently profitable. Especially in a bear market. A bart wipes your profits out, exchange fees wipe your profits out, a downturn wipes you out and on and on. It sounds good but you are playing the percentages too close for it to really work. And if you play larger percentages then you don't get any trades. Until you do but when that happens it means you've been barted again. Round and round.
This is the kind of thing that when you explain it to somebody who doesn't know better, it sounds really good. Then they try and see the realities of an actual market.
And lol, I see everybody got quiet. Must be cuz ETH dumped. Hope you market makers weren't caught slippin' (no pun intended)

[Anonymous No.11036357]

>>11036301
The USD amount changes but right now I'm making about 1 million sats a day from a position size of 1 BTC. Right now about $60 per day. Only .11 BTC from 1 BTC is ever fully invested, the rest is kept for margin requirements.

[Anonymous No.11036359]

>>11036308
but who's he selling it to xD

[Anonymous No.11036379]

>>11036308
you can not be serious. if there is a buyer, there is a seller.

[Anonymous No.11036380]

Also your playing against the house (exchanges) who are certainly in cahoots with whales (they need large market makers). I'm almost certain some exchanges actually (front)run a version of my algorithm themselves.
This is hard.

[Anonymous No.11036378]

>>11036338
>A bart wipes your profits out
No. It doesn't. Period. I can tell you from experience.

>exchange fees wipe your profits out
Dude come on. Seriously? You don't know what you're talking about. Market making provides you a rebate and there are obviously no fees because we aren't market buying. This is basic stuff you are getting wrong just so you can be a sperglord. I bet people can't stand being around you.

[Anonymous No.11036412]

>>11036357
oh so now your position is 3x 2500 USD?
make up your mind or go larp somewhere else.

PS. your liq price is nowhere near 250 usd with 10x leverage.

[Anonymous No.11036415]

>>11036380
So the exchanges actually pay the market makers. This is why we use Bitmex and not GDAX because GDAX has a behind-the-scenes deal with their market makers so the payoff is too low. Whereas Bitmex still needs the liquidity and so the payoff is quite good.

This isn't trading. This isn't opening longs or shorts. This isn't using leverage. This is market making. People need to shut the fuck up and read.

[Anonymous No.11036419]

>>11036359
For sure it’s not always going to be a win win but i guess the point is it’s also never going to always be win lose either

[Anonymous No.11036433]

>>11036412
>oh so now your position is 3x 2500 USD?
Yes.

>PS. your liq price is nowhere near 250 usd with 10x leverage.
>what is cross leverage

[Anonymous No.11036443]

>>11036379
Well yeah of course...what I’m saying is both the buyer and seller can be winners. Zero sum implies one person wins and the other loses

[Anonymous No.11036445]

>>11036419
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
I keep forgetting you guys are just kids here. Fuck I wish I could just give you all a class. You're all so god damned stupid.

[Anonymous No.11036463]

>>11036378
>Market making provides you a rebate
Most exchanges don't give a rebate and the ones that do, the rebate is a fraction of the fee. Only a few exchanges like GDAX have zero maker fees. Most people are on one of the former exchanges, so yes, there are fees.
>This is basic stuff you are getting wrong just so you can be a sperglord. I bet people can't stand being around you.
Listen, fucktard, the only one getting shit wrong is you. The only thing you have is a bullshit anecdote and bluster. The exact type of joker people *actually* can't stand to be around. Nice pic related though.

[Anonymous No.11036493]

>>11036443
you go to the store.
you buy all the candies
I steal half from you
???
we both got candies and its not zero sum.

[Anonymous No.11036508]

>>11036433
your story changed again.

if you are using less than 10x leverage (cross), then you are not getting 1% daily according to your numbers. just called off your larp, nice try tho.

[Anonymous No.11036529]

>>11036445
Ok? The theory doesn’t invalidate my statement.

>>11036493
Well good thing I said “trade” not “theft”

To reiterate to both of you, I’m saying not ALL trades are zero sum. Some are.

[Anonymous No.11036560]

>>11036529
they all are zero sum, because in this system there are only 2 parties.
you pay what Im willing to sell you for, and vice versa.
Who is losing is relative, but one party is always losing against the other.

[Anonymous No.11036574]

In my experience, 2%/a day is easily acheivable over short periods

The big dumps and pumps will fuck you up though.

Including the big losing days I had nearly broke even over the course of several months.

Since then I've implemented a lot more risk management stuff and it has affected my returns bigly

Now I can go days without a trade and make about 10x less average, but I don't get btfo ever

[Anonymous No.11036596]

>>11036560
How would both parties lose if I sold something at a profit to someone who wanted it more than I did and eventually profited from it?

Going back to your candy analogy. I go to the candy store and buy candy. Store owner gets money, I get candy. Since every trade has a losing party according to you, who lost?

[Anonymous No.11036693]

>>11036596
well now you are at the greater fools theory.

like in the candy example. everything is fine and dandy but you lost 50% to me.

Yeah sure I think 2 people making a trade can both be profitable in the end, but I dont see how that really is worth mentioning. the system has money in and money out, they are the same. zero sum. someones gain is someones loss

[Anonymous No.11036759]

>>11036693
>like in the candy example. everything is fine and dandy but you lost 50% to me

Because in your example you stole from me? Lol

And you were the one that started arguing about it so why is your point worth mentioning? And on top of that how can you say in one sentence that a trade can be profitable for both parties and in the last day there’s one winner and one loser.

Just stop bro lol

[Anonymous No.11036769]

>>11035216
yeah, that's why I never trade on 1 minute sticks. they are those bots who immediately counter your order by one digit and earn money through spread, not to worry about, 1m is for plebs, bots, pajeets and gamblers anyway, what matters most is swing trading

[Anonymous No.11036775]

>>11036759
say*

[Anonymous No.11036865]

>>11036759
hurr durr you are a little simple arent you?

its zero sum game even when traders on one particular trade would not end up losing. hard to grasp? you are not taking into account all the other trades and traders that are neccessary for this example.

[Anonymous No.11036938]

>>11036865
What?! Lol that is literally the opposite definition of zero sum.

If both parties win = not zero sum
If one party loses = zero sum

Why are you bringing up other traders or trades? We’re talking about a transaction (singular)

[Anonymous No.11037064]

>>11036308
>And if ETH hypothetically goes up after, the guy I sold it to will make a profit as well.
And what about the guy who eventually buys it right before it tanks? Unless you're claiming that the price will rise infinitely?

[Anonymous No.11037306]

>>11037064
Jesus Christ is it retard day in /biz/? I’m talking about ONE TRADE. SINGULAR. I never said all trades will both have winners. Some trades will be zero sum some will not.

[Anonymous No.11037365]

>>11037306
Absolute brainlet. Individual trades don't exist in a vacuum. The market as a whole is a zero sum game.

[Anonymous No.11037392]

>>11037365
Prove it then? If you want to add up all zero sum and non zero sum trades and see who wins, have fun. All I know is the type of trades I described exist. Shit, my bot sold IOTA for a 1% profit today and IOTA went up another 1% after it traded. I won, he won. Period.

[Anonymous No.11037403]

>>11036938
the system is zero sum. one transaction is not in the sense you are trying to imply.

trading is zero sum. simpling.

[Anonymous No.11037409]

>>11037392
Prove it? It's simple fucking logic. The only possible way it would not be is if the price rises infinitely. If you don't understand this then you're too stupid to be trading.

[Anonymous No.11037427]

>>11037392
in your retarded example. where did the seller get the ethereum? why is he already in profit when he is selling it to you? and why would the price rise right after you have bought it? HURR DURR NOT ZERO SUM EVERYONE WINS

[Anonymous No.11037442]

>>11037403
Then you should have mentioned you were talking about the totality of all trades in the market. My comment was specifically about one trade.

Like I said to the other guy, if you want to count up all trades and find out who wins, have at it and I’ll be happy to admit that all trading over time results in one winner and one loser. But there’s no way to prove that so that’s why im not trying to put a blanket statement on the market because I know both types of trades exist but I have no idea what they ultimately come to and neither do you

[Anonymous No.11037452]

>>11037392
and to your 'prove it', like I stated earlier.
Money out <= money in.

[Anonymous No.11037460]

>>11037442
There's no such thing as "one trade". Every trade chains into another trade infinitely until there are no more buyers or the last buyer dies.

[Anonymous No.11037468]

>>11037409
The market is higher than when it started so by your logic I could be correct

>>11037427
I said in the example he bought it at $100...and just because you sell something doesn’t mean it stops becoming more valuable after...damn you’re fucking retarded

[Anonymous No.11037513]

>>11037460
So all trades happen simultaneously in your world? There is absolutely such a thing as one trade

[Anonymous No.11037527]

>>11037468
your logic is the following:
I played lottery last week and won.
By buying a ticket you win in lottery.
You can not prove that I will not be profitable long term.
>my example went down once, thats how the system works.
I really hope you are not gambling your lunch money that your momma worked hard for

[Anonymous No.11037552]

>>11037527
That made no sense at all...

[Anonymous No.11037580]

What programming language I need to learn so I can write my own bot?

[Anonymous No.11037597]

>>11034516
Gunbot owner. Anyone wanna buy it?? Every time they upgrade my shit gets locked out and I have to plea to some bro to add my account to the authentication server. Seriously wastes a ton of time. It's OK if you can find a coin that's bot friendly, but be aware that there are tons of bots all doing the same thing and volume becomes an issue. My bot bought bags. Just wait it out they say. Fuck that. I make more in manual trades in less time and with more comfort. It might be good tool to help you sell or buy a threshold and maximize on the price but I wouldn't bank on it for great trading. Just hop on polo and undercut the price by.0000001 and watch all the bots raise you .0000001 over and over and over. Makes it hard to sell sometimes, but it's fun to watch them raise/lower the price when you fuck with em.

[Anonymous No.11037613]

>>11035930
this nig got it.

[Anonymous No.11037696]

>>11035705
dude was making .5 BTC/ license when it was sub $1k.

Insert money people give you on the internet, (make a lower % but still more $$ overall because you get a bigger knot)

Have enough market buddies to actually swing some of the smaller coins. Remember Whales??

Bot pays here: (not you)
you do the maths.

[Anonymous No.11037705]

>>11037513
The timeline is irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.11037719]

>>11037552
finally you got it.

[Anonymous No.11037784]

>>11037719
No you didn’t, you made a non-sensical statement. Repeat in English and I’ll respond.

>>11037705
This also makes no sense

[Anonymous No.11037813]

>>11037784
Do yourself a favour and stick to the slot machines

[Anonymous No.11037845]

>>11037696
implying that the bot doesnt even generate profit, thats one way.
I thought that we were discussing on bots that had a proper winning strategy

[Anonymous No.11037849]

>>11037813
Sure bud. I’m tired of this retarded ass convo anyway

[Anonymous No.11037869]

>>11037784
So. If you think you can make a comment that one event, a transaction, can be said to be or not to be zero sum, sure. It might not be. This however is not how zero sum is typically used, but it is used in the context of a system.

Aka trading.

Which is zero sum.
Why? Because you have money going in, and that same money coming out. Everyone who gains, gets it from someone else (those that end without).
I don't know how to put it in more simple terms.

[Anonymous No.11037915]

>>11037849
you could also argue, that if person A sells to person B in profit, that person As profit is not counted towards person Bs possible profits since A has cashed that money out of the system.

[Anonymous No.11037999]

>>11037869
For like the 9th time, and please please read -

I never said that trading as a whole is or is not zero sum.

Zero sum can be applied to both individual situations or to an overall system, however, you cannot say that something is ultimately zero sum because the “game” hasn’t ended. If crypto went to $0 today, yes, it was zero sum. However, there are plenty of unrealized gains to be had currently and there will be as long as the market is around. You can’t say money in/money out because not all money has gone in and not all money has gone out. That’s why it normally is applied situationally as opposed to a string of situations

[Anonymous No.11038025]

>>11037915
Correct although I don’t really see your point

[Anonymous No.11038052]

>>11037999
But the point you clearly dont grasp, is that for that to NOT be a zero sum game, the 'pie' would get bigger by trading, in this example. You can read about zero sum on Wikipedia, first 2 paragraphs are completely against you.

The game 'ending' or going to zero has nothing to do with this. Its the fact that you CAN NOT cash out more than people have put in.

[Anonymous No.11038072]

>>11038025
that would make a single trade between A and B non zero sum, since Bs possibility to profit is now less that A has made profit.

[Anonymous No.11038112]

>>11038052
It absolutely does make a difference when the game ends. Here’s why - what if one person bought up every single coin in the market and refused to sell to anyone. Obviously he’s an idiot but in that scenario there’s one loser but WAY more winners. And you can go ahead and check Wikipedia on that because it does mention the total of winners and loses determines whether or not it is zero sum.

[Anonymous No.11038136]

>>11038072
Why would it diminish Bs possibility to profit? The market wouldn’t necessarily stop going up after A sold.

[Anonymous No.11038225]

Arbitrage bots is where the real gains are

[Anonymous No.11038245]

>>11038225
You know a good one?

[Anonymous No.11038320]

>>11038245
Why would someone with a profitable arbitrage bot give it to other people?

[Anonymous No.11038351]

>>11038320
Idk after a simple google search I found a few for sale so ask them. I was asking the dudes opinion if he knows about one so fuck off?

[Anonymous No.11038368]

>>11038351
>the guy selling it says it's profitable so it must be true
like I said, stick to the slot machines

[Anonymous No.11038393]

>>11038368
Can you please hop off my dick? I’m just asking him a question not putting in a buy order

[Anonymous No.11038395]

>>11038136
Because there is simply less money on the system that can be cashed out.

If I take it to the extreme, you'll see:
Your maximum amount you can profit/generate/withdraw from cryptos == the NET amount that has been put in . Now if everyone is an active trader and you happen to be the best, you can gain ALL the money that is currently in the system, and everyone else will leave empty handed. Now if there is someone as good as you, you will only gain HALF, because you have to split the pie.

If A cashes out, this limits Bs maximum profit.

Aka. Its better to be the only one profiting.

[Anonymous No.11038396]

>>11034516
I code my own bots.
Was making about 20%/month pretty consistently, but my strategies typically relied on low volume, so there was a point of diminishing returns with how much money I could allocate them.

[Anonymous No.11038441]

>>11038395
There is less money until someone else puts more money back into the system aka buys later. Just because one person gets a 10% return on a trade doesn’t mean that the next person is capped at 9%

[Anonymous No.11038464]

>>11038441
It does until the next person comes - we are back to greater fools.
You can not have it both ways.
You try to say it is an independent event, but then again your rationale of why it is not zero sum is that someone else will bring more money to the system. This is why seeing it as an event in a vacuum is pointless.

[Anonymous No.11038671]

>>11038464
But again the greater fools argument does not invalidate my point. If someone sells and someone else buys and the buyer later sells to someone else etc etc etc. there may have been a winner or a loser in any of those trades but there may not have been. Yes the assumption is that there is a greater fool but what if the fools won? The two fools in my example did, so that’s why your argument has nothing to do with my point

[Anonymous No.11038724]

>>11038671
Are you trolling?
>But again the greater fools argument does not invalidate my point.
You do realize that the fools run out at some point? Thats the point, it can not go on forever. There is only so much money or people in the world to fund the circus.
>but what if the fools won?
what ever you are trying to say with that makes no sense. the fools are the losers. period.

[Anonymous No.11038731]

To the person who said Arbitrage is a loser trade duck you faggot been making 15ish % a month since going live also here is done good FREE info go to crypto wizard and look under arbscan your welcome gay boys

[Anonymous No.11038851]

>>11038724
No the fools are not necessarily losers. The theory states that someone buys something because they believe that there will be a greater fool to come along and buy it for more. So person A buys at $1 and sells to person B at $2. Person B buys because he expects a greater fool to come along and buy higher. Person B finds Person C who’s willing to buy at $3 etc etc. If you think buying something at a higher price then what someone else paid for it makes you a “loser” than drop out of crypto now because all you’ve bought up until this point is other sellers hand me downs.

Of course I don’t think it can go in perpetuity but it is possible to have non zero sum trades while the system continues. That is the only point I’ve ever tried to make. You can trade with someone and both parties win and the opposite can occur as well. All trades are not black and white one winner one loser.

[Anonymous No.11038994]

>>11038731
Settle down anon, have a CHAT.
When you say arbitrage, do you mean inter-exchange arbitrage or arbitrage of pair triangles on the same exchange?

[Anonymous No.11039153]

>>11038851
on the premise that there is always a new fool, missed gains are not 'loss' and this being in a vacuum, maybe.
stupid, but yeah have it your way haha

[Anonymous No.11039258]

>>11039153
While there’s a market there’s always a new “fool”, missed gains are not losses and I have no idea why anyone would think that, and your statements imply vacuum more than mine.

But thanks I will

[Anonymous No.11039325]

>>11035286
1% gains daily? lmao ok mr billionaire.

[Anonymous No.11039367]

>>11039325
I posted a screenshot of my gains earlier in the thread. But the gains aren’t compounding. There’s diminishing returns at a certain point.

[Anonymous No.11040004]

>>11038994
The crypto wizard site is an intersite scanner, only problem is any good opportunities only exist cuz wallet issues and shit. Like NANO/ETH right now has 40% arb between Hitbtc and Kucoin but guess what, no deposit on Hitbtc so the arbitrage can't happen. Natch the scanner doesn't show that. The guy's probably a shill for the site.

[Anonymous No.11040165]

Bitcoin has so large spread and especially slippage during fast moves it's laughable idea somebody could intraday btc. After last winter the btc market got insanely more competitive as professional traders and algos were set in