/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>9088912

Both are poison you pick the one you hate least

>>9088912
>>9088947
i bet it literally smells like sugar and honey dew melon

>>9088912
Depends on the market m8, but generally renting is chea

>>9088912
If you are a crypto billionaire like all of /biz/ it's not bad.

If you have limited assets, you are locking a large part of your equity up in what is essentially a low return investment (housing market gains - inflation - mortgage interest), and this equity could otherwise be used in more profitable endeavors such as pumping shitcoins that you heard about on a Pajeet discord.

>>9088947
>>9088971

It depends on so many things you really have to decide if you want to own a home or not, especially at the present moment

A lot of biz will tell you renting is better because we're in a housing bubble to feel better about not being able to afford a home, but ignore the fact that they live in flyover country where the bubble never gets near as big nor pops nearly as badly as on the coasts.

>>9088912
buy rental properties
rent the place you actually live in

fucking idiot its not that hard

>>9089060
Thats really not counting of him buying a fixer upper and increasing the value of the house before potentially selling to make small gains , which is relatively big considering the money you save from not paying rent .

>>9089208
>A lot of biz will tell you renting is better because we're in a housing bubble to feel better about not being able to afford a home, but ignore the fact that they live in flyover country where the bubble never gets near as big nor pops nearly as badly as on the coasts.

Except if you make 100k/yr and invest your downpayment (60k) which makes 5% each year, in 5 years you'll have almost 200k more than you will if you purchased a home. Will your 250/k home double in price in 5 years? I doubt it.

>>9088912
>Ahh yes.. Smells heavenly today dear *SNIFF* Mmm very moist my pretty *SNIIIIIIIFFF* Uh I see you've been eating well darling, just another taste my dear *SNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIF*

>>9089348
Congrats on missing the point. Pic is you btw

>>9089393
No, it's you not understanding real estate and how to manipulate money.

>>9089509
>mortgage and rent both $1500

>>9089208
You mean the West Coast right? Because Boston and New York City barely got affected by 2008. Where is LA and Las Vegas both got anally fucked.

East Coast was always the better value proposition

>>9089542
It's so obvious that you're mad that you can't afford property laughing my ass off. Real estate is the ultimate Market for people who actually have money, not poor idiots like you

https://affordanything.com/is-renting-better-than-buying-should-i-rent-or-buy/

>>9088912
It's not a bad idea, assuming you can afford one.

If you can't afford to buy a home you'll have to borrow money from a bank in order to buy one. This is called a mortgage and it's a very bad idea.

>>9089655
my place is already paid off tho

>>9089297
Yes there are many profitable ways to own a house. The line of reasoning in >>9089060 becomes harder and harder to defend when you spend more time in the same residence.

>>9088912

We're very soon going to have a clear caste system where you're either a land owner, or a rentcuck for life. I chose to buy for that reason, and that I want a small hobby farm to get off grid.

Finding property that isn't vastly overpriced can be hard, but stick to the oldschool rule of thumb (house debt should be no more than 3x your yearly take home pay) and ride out the storm through the impending downturn. Its a balancing act: there's cheap rates to be had still, but prices are at a peak. Your goal is to lock down those cheap rates while finding a place selling for under market value (account for a 25% drop in value occurring within 2-5 years).

Ultimately the choice is yours, but my goal is to minimize my third party dependencies so renting for life isn't an option. On the other side of the next crash if you're not locked into some property, there won't be any left for you to buy when you want to.

Bumping for more responses

RENTKEK vs. DEBTSLAVE
Tough call. Squat like a bawss.

>>9089348
>invest your downpayment (60k) which makes 5% each year, in 5 years you'll have almost 200k more than you will if you purchased a home.

60,000 * 1.05^5 = $76,576.89

Your returns are WAY off. You would only gain $16,576.89 from investing that downpayment at 5% for 5 years where do you get such a rapid growth from in your calculation?

That's not nearly enough to offset the equity you're not building.

it turns you gay refute this you cant'

>>9090175
>Tfw I was about to buy a 2br townhome

Thanks for the warning anon

>>9089348
>>9089509
Something is really fucked up with your tables.

Let's say you have $200,000 in your bank account. In scenario 1 you mortgage a house for 5 years and then sell it. In scenario 2 you rent.

SCENARIO 1:
I'll plug in your $250k house with $60k downpayment into a mortgage calculator. The payment is $1,190.42 per month. So you would have to debit your bank account $60,000 + $1,190.42 * 12 months * 5 years = $131,425. According to the amortization tables you would have paid off $18,149.73 of the principal after 5 years.

So you have $78,150 of equity in your home.
You have $68,575 left in the bank.
Net worth is $146,725.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SCENARIO 2:
You debit $60k from your bank account and put it into an investment account instead yielding 5% interest. The average house price to annual rent ration in the US is around 12 so it would cost ~$1,700 a month to rent a similar place. You would have spent a total of $102,000 on rent on those 5 years.

Your investment portfolio would be worth $76,577.
You have $38,000 left in the bank. (Debiting the $60k for the investment portfolio and the rent)
Net worth is $114,577.

So renting instead of buying kek'd you out of $32,148 after 5 years. The disparity grows more and more the longer the time frame because more interest is paid upfront.

>>9091113
https://www.mortgagecalculator.org/

Bamp

>>9088912
I'm about to put my home up for rent and buy and new home and use the cash flow from the renter to buy down the debt and then I'm going to buy another home and rent out that one and have 2 renters pay down the debt of my 1 new home and then I'm going to buy another home and put that one up for rent and have 3 renters pay down my debt on this home and I'm going to keep doing this until I have 100 rental properties buying down the debt on my one home and soon the cash flow will outpace the debt exponentially and I'll be set. Will this work?

>>9088912
Wow is taytay compromised by the evil globalist illuminati kabal?

>>9091727
Wondering this as well

>>9089509
>$300 principle on 1500 payment

um, did you get a Payday loan for your mortgage?
>counting equity in car
LMFAO
and most of all
>renting a room gives you the quality of life of owning you own place
dude, either compare renting your own place to owning your own place, or include subleasing your extra rooms for the house you bought. you're comparing apples to oranges. if renting a room is $500/mo then you can get back 500-1500 a month by renting out the other rooms in your house.

so buy a 4br house and your mortgage pays itself and you have $500 extra a month to invest, plus building equity in your home. no need to get a 30 year mortgage that way either, either get a 15 if you plan on staying, or get a 5/1 ARM if you plan to move


of course you can come up with a retarded lopsided comparison that makes any choice you want look better

>>9091742
>is a mainstream music artist compromised by the numa numa?
you win the retarded question of the year award

>>9092269
Eggsplain numa numa never heard it called that

>>9088912
rent if you have a steady income, buy if you dont

>>9088912

>>9092306
illuminati > luma naughty > numa numa

I'm afraid that's all there is to it.

can someone explain coops to me? you dont own that shit right?

I can decide on $1,200/month rent or a $8,000/month house payment which is almost double of what I make. Basically I'm forced to rent for the time being

You don’t have to take out a massive loan + interest.
You could have invested the difference in crypto.
You don’t have to pay for extra house shit or have to replace it (fridge, oven, dish washer, utilities)

Anon, watch this video by Anton Kreil where he discuss about Renting out VS owning a property. Very enlightening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9keQagt350

>>9089349
kek

Idk i hate it. Pay my rent 3 months everytime so I can ignore my landlord. Owning a house is equally shitty if you don't buy it outright.

>>9088912
It all depends on where you live and what you need and how much you know about investing. Buying RE is great for flyover hillbillies because they live shit lives and they just get cucked by the market so buying and holding an asset like RE is like having a savings account they can live in. Simple, not a great investment but a store of value they can borrow against. Also flyover taxes are low, maintenance is low, etc.
I live in high tax blue CT <1hour from NYC and rent a luxury condo but I don't want to pay property taxes or tie up 350K in a condo when I have that invested, plus a lot more in the market getting double digit returns each year. I bough the S&P emini and HOLDL 5 of last 6 years. I'm short now and already on my way to another double digit year but hillbillies will haw haw because I don't "own" anything. In blue states like CT rental laws are tenant friendly, it's not like in the South where your LL can fuck with you and the cops show up and laugh. LL's that fuck around get arrested and sued so they basically fuck off.

>>9092909
Also, before property cucks say "you're paying the taxes anyway in the rent" no, cuck, I'm not. My LL is stupid property cuck who bought at the top and is upside down on his mortgage. What I pay in rent doesn't even come close to covering his mortgage and his expenses but he has no choice to rent it to me because it keeps his head above water, waiting for the market to "come back". He can't go bankrupt because he's too rich, can't walk away because too much equity, he's a fucked property cuck.

>>9088912
It depends on so many personal factors that there is no way I could convince you without knowing more about your own personal financial situation and the market location where you plan on buying.

That being said owning is almost always cheaper than renting if you plan on staying in the same house for a very long time (depending on the market) so that's one factor, however renting gives you the freedom to pretty much pick up and leave whenever you like.

>>9088912
Also, the idea of "owning property" is a simp's idea of how the world works. There is no longer "allodial title", you pay rent or taxes or both. You pay every year to own land/property, more or less, and if you don't you be evicted by a LL or local government and your property sold to pay your taxes. Again, in shitty southern states rental leases often aren't worth much but in civilized parts of the country a lease is almost as good as a deed for as long as its in force. The only difference is that if Tyrone and co. move in next store or a rendering plant sets up shop the next county over or taxes shoot up to the moon to pay for teacher pensions a renter still just pays the rent already agreed and can move when the lease expires while a property cuck has to take the loss unless he can see into the future.

>>9089060
Forgot to add annual maintenance = 1% of your home value, taxes which if you're lucky is 1.1% of the assessed value, additionally insurance and HOA/condo fees, which can easily go north of $500 a month in a metropolitan area.

DYOR before buying and see what is cheaper in the long run. If you're buying a house to live in, the worst thing to do is to view it as an investment. Especially if you're getting a mortgage. By the time you're done paying it off, you're going to have sunk a hell of a lot more than whatever the sale price was. If you do buy, do it because it's cheaper, you want stability because you know you're going to be there for a long time, and be willing to take less than what you paid for when you ultimately sell. People don't take this shit into account and unintentionally put themselves in financial ruin.

t. Real Estate Appraiser

>>9091727
Probably a more efficient way to do that, through 1030 tax deferments, but yes in principle that's called being a landlord

Its pointless to think about taxes, maintenance, or even interest rates, since you pay for all those indirectly when you rent. When you rent, you pay a land lord and possibly a property management company as well. The landlord pays tax, which is actually often higher than the tax you would pay if you lived in your own property, the landlord pays for maintenance, and in addition marketing and advertising his units (not just yours) and passes on that cost to his tenants. And yes, landlords often have a mortgage too, and higher interest rates reduce affordability of mortgages increasing demand in cost of rent... So borrowing costs are baked into rent too.

In the long run owning a house will always be better, since you cut out the middlemen, unless there is a long term depreciation of the property. A lot of people incorrectly assume a house that is not being used to rent out is a liability. That is not true because it provides you a place to live. That is an asset, even if it takes money to maintain, and is taxed. You will always have a liability of having a place to live. You will always have to either pay rent or a mortgage, if you don't have the money to outright buy a home in cash. So its silly to consider a mortgage any more of liability than rent.

The only benefits to renting are flexibility of moving on a short time frame, and there is no up front cost. Renting even isn't worth it for shorting the housing market as there are tons of financial instruments for doing that, including using the equity in your own home to finance purchasing rental properties in a housing dip. Owning a house doesn't restrict you from taking advantage of a real estate crash.

Its always better in the long run to own something, then to rent it, or no one would be a landlord.

>>9092404
I support the phrase.

>>9093480
>oh a new position opened up across the country for double my current pay?
>sorry boss, I can't move. I have 26 years left on my mortgage.

>>9093535

In which case you can sell the house and move. Owning a house doesn't mean you can't move, it is just more expensive to move than renting. Which, like I said is almost the only benefit of renting along with no upfront cost (save potential brokerage fee / first & last rent).

>>9091727

extremely underrated

>>9093575
>In which case you can sell the house and move
Ok, let me put it up for sale, and either sell it below market price or let it sit for a year until someone makes a fair offer. Don't forget to pay the agent 6% goyim!

>>9088912

>>9088971
Sugar doesnt have a smell doofus

>>9093589

Yeah its a pain, that's the benefit of renting. If you know for a fact you're going to move in a year, renting is obviously a good choice. Otherwise its worth buying. In the off chance you want to move, you still can. As long as you own for a few years it will probably have been better to own anyway.

Buying a house right now in this market is like buying Bitcoin at 19k. There is absolutely no way these prices are sustainable in the next few years. Wait for a major crash to buy.

>>9091113
Rent cucks will ignore this

>>9093480
rent is established by the rental market, not what an LL's mortgage is. The best case a LL is he walks away, takes the hit the house is resold at a lower price to a new LL with a lower mortgage who can charge a lower rent. In the end the renter sets the market, not the LL. The LL is cucked by the bank, the housing market and the renter since any of those can fuck him over and screw up his finances. As I've already written, that isn't the case in shit states, but in states with strong tenant laws renting is always better than buying. Your post is basically "don't worry, buy my house" real estate always appreciates, 2007 was just a blip....

>>9093727

Have you ever heard people call Bitcoin digital real estate? It's because they share the same finite supply. If you bought BTC at 19k it sucks short term but is virtually garunteed to surpass that price one day. Same with real estate, if you buy high you might be in the red but you just have to hodl and eventually you'll get out. It's a bit better than BTC tho because you can "stake" property by renting and in the event of a crash you have useable land vs some code on your pc

>>9093790
>only using mortgage payment to figure cost instead of maintenance, insurance, taxes, etc.
>implying the dump will appreciate
>hope you don't need a new roof, all the work you will personally do to keep the place up or have to pay others for (time = money, for some of us anyway)
>implying you will find a buyer at all

>>9093817

Yes, but demand for rent is driven by cost of buying as well. The cheaper buying is due to lower borrowing costs or taxes, the less demand for renting, and vice versa. My point is that taxes, maintenance, and borrowing costs are being paid whether you rent or own, its pointless to consider having to pay tax or maintenance a downside of owning.

And if the value of a house drops, then that just decreases the upside of owning, its not a benefit of renting. If the value of the house drops, your mortgage is the same payment, just as if you rented. You pay a mortgage just as you would pay rent. Unless you moving every year during a recession to get the most competitive rent you aren't going to get that much benefit.

Long term, real estate is going to appreciate. Betting against real estate appreciating long term is literally betting against long term inflation. With government deficits set to hit over $1T/year that is extremely unlikely. Which is the massive benefit of owning, is that you get extremely cheap leverage on the investment.

>>9093480
>You will always have to either pay rent or a mortgage
not if you never move out of your parent's house

>>9093480
>Its always better in the long run to own something, then to rent it, or no one would be a landlord.
That depends. Most non-professional landlords lose money and end up worse off than they would have been otherwise. The only people who make money renting out property are slum lords and real estate management companies because economies of scale. They can pay a F/T plumber/landscaping/maintenance crew of Mexicans to handle 10-20 properties and make a profit. One house or apartment still requires constant maintenance, whether the LL does it or pays someone else it's either time or money that destroys the profit.

>>9093928

W/e you wanna think

It's hilarious the mental gymnastics children go through to justify their inability to save enough for a down payment.

My renters cover the entirety of the mortgage and profits equivalent to my down payment on the FIRST year. It's only getting better as I pay the interest down. My total repairs over the last 5 years have been less than 20% of the profits. I make enough extra to improve the properties every year and cover my rent when I move for work. You wanna know the secret? Don't live in Cali or NY

Its like leasing a car, you may think wow I can lease and pay much less per month and not own an asset that might (actually 100% will) depreciate. You don't even think about what happens at the end of lease because it seems so far away. If you buy a car and pay it off you can drive that car for probably a decade after that for free (except insurance). Even though the car depreciates in its market value, it still is an asset that provides the same utility it always has. At the end of a lease you have nothing.

Buying a house is even better because when you buy a house your payment is usually less than what you would pay renting if you put 20% down, and after many years you actually have a huge chunk of equity in an asset that actually appreciates. Could you have made more living in a dirt cheap basement apartment putting the money into stocks? Maybe, but remember that buying a house is buying with at least 5x leverage assuming 20% down. So unless your stocks are providing 5 times the gains, you would have a higher return and quality of living buying.

>>9088912

>Bought a 3br townhouse in 2015 in Seattle for 515k
>Same house less than two years later is valued at over 720k on Redfin
>Wife and I both make low six-figures; Even at our current income, house will be paid off in 10 years, easy.
>Neighbors in the same house who moved in 5 months ago are paying more in rent than I am for mortgage for essentially the same house in the same location
>200k free equity, and no landlord.

Tell me again how renting is better?

>>9091727

My friend has done this since college. He has to live in shit-ass Spokane for the rest of his life, but at least he can basically be retired by the time he turns 40.

>>9093991
>My point is that taxes, maintenance, and borrowing costs are being paid whether you rent or own
Yes, but by who? You miss my point which is that the LL cannot pass along those costs to the renter if the market will not bear it. Also the tenant has locked in costs while the LL has no ceiling to his liability except personal bankruptcy.
I understand that not everyone owns property to rent it out, I agree there are other reasons to own that our important but I am only speaking from an investment standpoint. If the value of your house drops that doesn't mean the tax assessment will, and more than 10 years after the great recession millions of people are still underwater on their mortgages. Betting on real estate appreciating is no longer a good strategy, have you ever heard of stagflation?

>>9094074
Did you read my other posts? I guess not...
>>9092909
>It all depends on where you live and what you need and how much you know about investing. Buying RE is great for flyover hillbillies because they live shit lives and they just get cucked by the market so buying and holding an asset like RE is like having a savings account they can live in. Simple, not a great investment but a store of value they can borrow against. Also flyover taxes are low, maintenance is low, etc.

>>9094116
I heard so much much boasting like this from friends in Westchester NY before 2007 and subsequent crash + monster property tax hike to finance blue state public unions. Emjoy your commiefornians.

>>9094191

Yes, if the landlord's costs are increasing, so are the costs of buying. The affordability of buying will actually push renting prices up. Renting prices and cost to own are coupled. In your scenario where the landlord is losing money, the cost to own a home is very cheap at that point in time. If you are making a decision between renting or owning, you don't care if your land lord is making money, you care about total cost.

And inflation means rising prices, which would be good for owning real estate where supply is restricted.

The truth is the only way to make money buying a house is if it appreciates, otherwise you're better off renting. The reason is simple: Tax free capital gains on home appreciation. If the house/apt/condo doesn't appreciate you will lose compared to other investment options. But you cannot tell this to property cucks because they think they invented the wheel. As you may or may not have noticed Wall Street is still around and doing fine while millions of property cucks are paying underwater mortgages that fucked their finances for life.

>>9093928
Taxes, fees, interest and home insurance were already factored in. That's why there was only 18k principal paid off after 5 years but that STILL wasn't enough to make renting and investing the downpayment more profitable. There was no appreciation even factored in. Even if you add in $10,000 for a brand new roof, it would still have been more profitable to buy.

>>9094322
>no maintenance costs, 100% certain sale, real estate commission, etc. Please stop forcing this meme, home ownership is not a good investment even if you're so stupid all you can think to do with your cash is find some sort of CD paying 5%. Look at the return on the S&P for the 10 years:

Dec. 31, 2017 21.83%
Dec. 31, 2016 11.96%
Dec. 31, 2015 1.38%
Dec. 31, 2014 13.69%
Dec. 31, 2013 32.39%
Dec. 31, 2012 16.00%
Dec. 31, 2011 2.11%
Dec. 31, 2010 15.06%
Dec. 31, 2009 26.46%

>>9094322
yeah and your analysis still makes no fucking sense because of the critical point
>it would cost ~$1,700 a month to rent a similar place
if you rent, you rent an apartment, you don't rent a $250,000 home

>>9094279
All of your points presume that a home will appreciate in value at at least the rate of inflation. If you can guarantee that performance I will buy a house in that neighborhood. Lots and lots of people thought they way you do and got creamed. I'm just saying it's not a axiom that housing always goes up anymore.

>>9094485

there are no apartments where I live

>>9094556
well if there's no choice what the fuck's the point of this question

>>9094451

Real estate does not return as much as stocks, but with a mortgage you are getting leverage on your down payment. On the equity you build over time the return literally doesn't matter because you get 0 equity with rent. With a typical 20% down payment, your stock would have to outperform your home by 5 times just to beat your down payment, let alone the return on the additional equity you build. Stock returns are also correlated with the economy just like real estate. Its rare that stocks would go up while home prices go down, and vice versa. Although you can hold cash when you rent, instead of paying a down payment, if you are so good at calling the peak and bottom of markets you can short the market on margin so its a pointless hypothetical.


>>9094485

And you can buy a cheapo condo too. Only fair to compare similar quality of living.

>>9094542

No it doesn't. The total monthly cost of owning is usually less than renting for the same quality of housing. Lack of appreciation only decreases one of the upsides of owning, and is a possible opportunity cost of investing the down payment better. But like I said, housing prices are correlated with the economy. Its very unlikely you are going to have found a good investment for your down payment in a recession or be able to predict a recession in the first place and short the market. And if you can do that there are financial instruments you can use outside of a wad of cash sitting in your bank account that wasn't used for a down payment.

I took on a commercial lease on a warehouse. Fitted it out with 8 artist studios and a small and large venue space and then we live up top in a lush pad with big bedroom, baby room, and 2 massive rooms to use as our own studios for music and art. Probs spent about 50k doing it all, but now we don't pay rent, live in a great spot close to all the action, have a massive "house" inside it and get to work from home. Beats renting and buying really. It'll pay itself off in 2 years of free rent and there'll be a business to sell at the end of it if we wish.

>>9094696
Except condo association fees are $200 to $500 and are the LEAST sensible option.

It's not just return on the down payment, it's the return of dollar cost averaging every month in savings you have from the rental over the premium you pay for having to buy an entire house

and don't say you can rent out rooms because you can also have roommates in an apartment (and either option fucking sucks because human beings are trash)

>>9094867

What monthly savings? Total cost of owning is cheaper per month for the same quality of living. Seems like most renters are comparing a one bed room apartment to a 2-3 bed house. One bed condos are dirt cheap. If you are throwing quality of living out the window then you can also buy apartment complexes and live in one of the units, you can often be cash flow positive. But its almost like a part time job at that point.

>>9088912
Live with your parents

>>9088912

It depends on your tax bracket and current local and federal tax laws.

I pay 650 a month in rent for a 750 square foot apt in one of the nicest parts of my city right across the street from a golf course. Is my place incredibly nice? No. I don't care it's perfectly centrally located in the city and a 15 min drive from work and 5 min drive from the gym/grocery store. Why the fuck would I want to borrow money from the jews to buy a house in the current state of our society? Everywhere I look I see more niggers even creeping into the nice part of town. Whats that mean? Crime, and with crime housing prices will drop. I'm just gonna stack up and invest for the next 5-10 years renting and when the housing market crashes then maybe I'll buy a house or a 4 unit building, live in one of the units and rent out the other 3.

>>9095145
Ok I'm going to spell it out, and this is for a nice big city with a cost of living equal to the average for all of the United States
>CONDOS
>$100k-$150k means $20k-$30k down
>monthly payment on mortgage ~$700
>condo association fees $200-$500
>property taxes variable but let's say $2500/yr
>you are now paying $1200-$1500 when there are apartments renting for $700-$1000
>best case the difference is $200 a month that can be invested PLUS the lump sum down payment worst case is $800
>rent increases but so do the association fees and property taxes

also what is this shit about quality of life
the quality of life is not better because you have to mow the lawn and replace the water heater and niggers moved in and drive down the street blasting bass

inflation causes rental price to go up all the time while my mortgage stays the same, and most likely value of house goes up.

i get utility out of living in my house.

my plan is to have starter house paid off, buy larger house to raise family in. once family is raised we sell larger house and move back to smaller house to grow old in.

keep renting new fags.

Only way to get a house in a nice city in an acceptable location without paying out the literal ass is to be a baby boomer.
I just live with my mum in a nice location. It's literally a 10 minutes ride to work and no crime at all.