/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>7546660
I would say the biggest one is the 10 year ultra-low interest rates and the retail debt. The housing market has been gang-busters since 2012 which is another warning sign. It's not at critical levels yet, but it's getting there.

>>7546660
theres 0 signs you retarded child

also in 2008 the only people that knew the recession would come were very few high ranking bankers

>>7546705
You cant be this stupid.

>>7546660
a government debt crisis im guessing

not sure why anyone around the world keeps putting faith in the green note. the petro yuan will put an end to that pretty fuckin quickly

>>7546720
nice, did you plan on arguing with me? Did you have some sort of argument prepared to explain why we would go into another recession?

>>7546705

>theres 0 signs you retarded child

>been constantly being told by financial experts for the last 4 years that a major correction is imminent

the next recession will be much worse than the last one
the housing bubble is happening again exactly the same way it happened last time because the regulations that were considered did not go through
in addition, not only was Glass–Steagall not reinstated, additional wall street regulations have been repealed
so it will be even worse

>>7546864
Holy shit hahahahaha

>>7546878
Dude it was government intervention that caused the housing bubble in the first place.

Debt is in a bubble right now, that's why the stock market are so scared of interest rate increases, because they know it will cause a recession since a large portion of twats the took out loans, credit cards ..etc won't be able to pay back.

>>7546660
USA is 100% going to war

It'll fuck with crypto for sure

>>7546864
We just had a correction

>>7547001
interest rates were priced in 2 years, when usa announced it

>>7546700
All the builders who built their way into poverty went broke in '08 though so inventory is actually still very low compared to demand.

>>7547079

>implying its finished

>>7546705
>also in 2008 the only people that knew the recession would come were very few high ranking bankers

Completely wrong. I strted betting on the implosion of real estate in 2005 and it ultimately paid of handsomely. You are literally retarded. Anyone who turned on a TV and saw loans being offered to people with court judgements against them knew that a serious implosion was imminent.

Companies that are shit based on PE
Amazon
Facebook
Twitter
Companies that are studctured for bond debt
Apple.
MSFT
Google
IBM

Total wipeout approaching fast faggot. You don't deserve to survive when interest rates slam up your ass.
>>7546785
>a government debt crisis im guessing

^^^This
col war ends bubble->.com bubble->real estate bubble->banking bubble->gov debt bubble-> IMF ECB

Literally no where for it to go.

>>7546785
>not sure why anyone around the world keeps putting faith in the green note.

Yuan, euro, yen,ruble pound etc are no better, in fact they are basically the same these days except maybe the ruble which is worthless.

>>7546962
>Gub'mint caused the housing bubble! Jes' like dey caused the Great Depression!

Will it take an economic calamity so bad that cannibals roam the streets before free markut libertardians are lynched on sight?

>>7547018
>USA is 100% going to war

Possibly. It already is at war though. You mean an additional war? Unnecessary really. Already in Afghan, Syria Iraq etc etc

the market actively crashing?

>>7547225
>in 2005
I bet you lost money faggot, nice larp
anyways, absolutely 0 chance of recession happening anytime soon, wheres the signs?
>PE ratio
just LMAO

>>7547225
cool thanks how can we profit :^)

>>7547225
BIH BIH COIN DIGITAL GOALD

>>7547262
>>Gub'mint caused the housing bubble! Jes' like dey caused the Great Depression! Will it take an economic calamity so bad that cannibals roam the streets before free markut libertardians are lynched on sight?

Free market correction is in act the only hope. It was government that distorted the housing and financial markets market stupid, instead of letting a healthy correction occur. I assume you are a brainwashed socialist faggot. Enjoy your decade of self induced poverty.

>>7547018
>implying war will affect crypto
>implying the US isn't always in a war
>being this retarded

>>7547303
OK thicko. Enjoy your poor and your 120 years to get earnings return on one piece of amazon stock. Never have interest rates been so distorted from historical means.

>>7546660

Who cares let the stock marketm burn I got 100k in crypto all those wall street faggots will either hang themselves or move into cryptos themselves thus increasing my profits.

>>7546660
price of monopoly money at all time high

>>7547304
>cool thanks how can we profit :^)

Dificult because government will come after ALL assets, estate tax, income tax, land tax, car tax etc etc. They will do absolutely every asset grab they can to keep themselves in a job for another year.

So assets that cannot be seize and are not on registrars/. Art, Antiques, Gold, Silver.

Stocks?
Utilities, gambling, booze.

Wheat and food commodity futures

>>7546660
like all the warning signs in crypto? faggot they just fell for fud in the housing bubble and the sub prime mortage they should have fucking hodl thru it, IRON HANDS motherfucker

>>7547303
>>PE ratiojust LMAO

The state of biz

>>7547371
you mean the USD?

>>7547346
I dont have positions on amazon or apple you dumb nigger. What about all the other stocks that arent overvalued? When has an overvalued PE ratio ever mattered in history of the SP500 period? Everyone knows interest rates are rising, its been priced in since 2014-2015. Why arent banks pulling out yet? Why did it take this long and a bond yield spike to cause a correction? because we are in a new paradigm as it stands

>>7547365
>100k usd in crypto
>hyper inflation wont affect me
kek

>>7547418
economics for the 21st century

>>7547400
>Wheat and food commodity futures
These would go up, right?
But how would I lock down my ownership with the looters in the government trying to take it from me?

>>7546660
PE ratios
Deviation from historical averages for interest
Record government and public debt
Debt bond stock by back shell companies like IBM etc
Stagflation
Unsustainable personal debt (auto load, 'student' loan etc)
Unsustainable public debt
Bond market instability
Worthless web 2.0 shell companies like FB and fraud companies like Apple, twitter, Amazon, google, that produce no innovation and are essentially drifting marketing hulks that do nothing that contributes to GDP or productivity

No rise in productivity
And 'generation useless' who are now in their 30s and still economically and socially unproductive and worthless.

>>7547469
You literally have no understanding of why the .dom bubble occurred or what a PE ratio is you retard. Keep clicking on shiet in your stocks app and pretending you are Gordon ghekko.

>>7547559
LMAO
Ive studied the entire market since the beginning
Do you want to talk about the 1950s where we were in a similar market thats more relevant to today? Where world economic growth, growing world population, contributed to a breakout of the PE ratio, leading to a much longer bullrun than what youve ever experienced?

>>7547469
Mean: 16.83
Median: 16.15
Min: 4.78 (Dec 1920)
Max: 44.19 (Dec 1999)


Shiller PE ratio for the S&P 500.

FUCKING LEARN

>>7547610
I don't think you have been holding any stock much longer than five year actually and have no experience of a bear stock market.

>>7547646
yeah, what you arent showing is the consolidation period of the shiller ratios and the breakouts and why those are extremely important in deciding whether or not to pull out of a market

>>7547672
Thats great dude. You wont be able to know if we are entering a bear market until next fridays close if you didnt know

>>7547610
>>7547610
>Ive studied the entire market since the beginning

that's nice. So write a nice letter to Professor shiller and explain why a retarded little monkey with a stock app disputes his call on the .com boom and why in his little psychotic mind PE ratios don't matter. I'm sure he will shrug and throw it in the bin. One of the problems with feigning knowledge is it shows when you do it you dumb faggot. We are well on course for a fairly serious recession.

>>7547225

>Companies that are studctured for bond debt
>Apple.
>MSFT
>Google
>IBM

Can you help a brainlet out anon and elaborate more on this? What do you mean by structured for bond debt?

China's economy is having a meltdown and for the most part:

1. The Chinese are doing well at keeping it low key.
2. The west is ignoring it.

I imagine a massive recession in China will hurt the west's economy that have been making a killing out of the rising of their middle class.

>>7547712
If you think markets are going to hold in the 30s/40s or shiller PE for any length of time then you deserve to be poor.

>>7547646

>>7547141
Who's demand?
People go into massive debt for housing.
It always ends.

>>7547731
IBM does not borrow money to invest in its 'business' it borrows money on cheap credit markets to buy its own stock, in fact while doing this it also cuts its actual core business. All these shell companies do it.

>>7547225
aapl's PE is not shit

>>7547001

>>7547737
>t.

>>7547723
Shiller got BTFO in 1956 when the ratios broke out
good luck with your recession man, keep trading those shiller ratios

>>7547748
Thank you

>>7547737
everybody already knows about this, been going on for what 4 years now? ever since capital flight went to billions

>>7547797
>aapl's PE is not shit

They make an overpriced mobile with a niche market in idiots and homosexuals with infinite competitors a stupid watch and a laptop no one buys. Start again.

>>7547737
they'll have a 2007 style financial meltdown pretty soon

place is a blackbox but all the signs are there all the retarded american companies that thought their future was china will get buried

banks giving 30 year mortgages to the elderly

>>7547813
>Shiller got BTFO in 1956 when the ratios broke out good luck with your recession man, keep trading those shiller ratios

Drooling spastic. Hopefully you work on a trading floor. Jump fucker. Jump

>>7547848

Best summation of Apple I've seen

>>7547737
they are imploding on bad debt quietly

>>7547795

Thanks anon appreciate it. This is why it's still worth coming here.

Zero interest rates for years on end
Massive debts across many sectors
Poor growth relative to stimulus, basically China carrying the whole world on its back

>>7547877
>>7547848
its funny you think that the markets are controlled by the average investors sentiment rather than 401k pension plans and mutual funds. To think the markets will go down now is to say the world is ending

>>7547896
>if nobody can hear you fart it didnt happen

>the crypto bubble burst/shrank so we can finally get real econ talk on /biz/

>>7546785
Because the Yuan is even less trustworthy.

>>7547262
Keep sucking that corporate cock you deluded keynesian

>dude creating trillions of dollars out of thin air and giving it to wall street and the housing market has nothing to do with the recession

Fucking idiot

>>7547918
were going to be studying the crypto bubble for years, better get comfy

>>7547225
>He thinks P/E is relevant for those companies
Look, I can sit here and call you a retard all day for thinking this, but I am feeling nice so I will tell you why. P/E uses EPS, which is based on after-tax profits. So P/E just means that these companies don't bring in much profit.
>Why would you want to invest in a company that doesn't bring in profits?
Because these companies bring in a shit-ton of revenue. Much more revenue than they need to operate. However, instead of just keeping profits and getting assraped by taxes, they spend the money on expanding the company.

Look at AMZN. They are the main recipient of high P/E FUD. But look at how quickly they are expanding the scope of their business! If they suddenly stopped expanding, they would start bring in insane profits. But this would be extremely short-sighted for them, as they can continue to exponentially grow their business until they begin reaching full saturation of all of the markets they can penetrate. At this point, they will finally stop growing, and begin pulling in massive profits. And everyone who got in early will get rich as fuck off of the insane dividends, in addition to having massively appreciated value of the stocks themselves.

>>7547944
If it's the economy of the bubble itself I don't care so far as it's no more pajeets shilling their PnDs

What causes financial crisis is debt. "bubbles" happen because of debt

>>7547997
And debt mostly comes from central banks

>>7547990
we literally just broke out
look at 1956 - 1989

>>7547908
>To think the markets will go down now is to say the world is ending

PE ratio. They are they will and that is that. Bonds have to rise or no body buys them . Nobody buys them and giv debt implodes. Are we there yet? Chap money is over. The last decade is a complete distortion and it has to tank and tank hard before markets actually fix themselves and the more governments intervene the longer it will take.

>>7547997

>>7548031
Great image

More like this?

>>7546660
Here in Australia we've got a problem with a speculative housing bubble. We're definitely going full recession mode when it pops due to just how much money is tied up in it but everyone seems to be doing their fucking best to just pretend it's not happening.

So that's what's going to trigger it here in Aus is my guess, though an american recession will only make things worse in Australia due to how much we rely on your economy.

It's gonna be a rough few years to be quite honest.

>>7547941
Fucking sanity. Keynesians have robbed two decades of wealth creation in the name of their dogma.

>>7547948
>>He thinks P/E is relevant for those companiesLook, I can sit here and call you a retard all day for thinking this, but I am feeling nice so I will tell you why. P/E uses EPS, which is based on after-tax profits. So P/E just means that these companies don't bring in much profit. >Why would you want to invest in a company that doesn't bring in profits?Because these companies bring in a shit-ton of revenue. Much more revenue than they need to operate. However, instead of just keeping profits and getting assraped by taxes, they spend the money on expanding the company. Look at AMZN. They are the main recipient of high P/E FUD. But look at how quickly they are expanding the scope of their business! If they suddenly stopped expanding, they would start bring in insane profits. But this would be extremely short-sighted for them, as they can continue to exponentially grow their business until they begin reaching full saturation of all of the markets they can penetrate. At this point, they will finally stop growing, and begin pulling in massive profits. And everyone who got in early will get rich as fuck off of the insane dividends, in addition to having massively appreciated value of the stocks themselves.

You don't have a fucking clue Shiller PE addresses exactly that

Price earnings ratio is based on average inflation-adjusted earnings from the previous 10 years, known as the Cyclically Adjusted PE Ratio (CAPE Ratio), Shiller PE Ratio, or PE 10

>>7548025

Its debt all the way down. Probably right after 2020 thats when shit hits the fan and China says pay up bitches and becomes the global leader.

>>7548025
no in the 80s we had bond yields rise and it caused a similar correction to what we saw last week, it recovered, we havent even entered a consolidating market yet... so to say we will have a recession soon is ludicrous

>>7547325
hahahahahaha you fucking libertarians are absolutely r e t a r d e d.

do some fucking research, youre already on the internet dumb fuck.

glass-steagall being repealed by Clinton put into motion this bubble. Banks/Investment Firms paid hansomely to have this regulation nixed, it forced retail banks and investment banks to be separate entities, going a long way to stopping a lot of the greed and over trading happening on wall street.

Fast forward to Bush signing another act into law to incentivize more americans owning(buying more loans) homes. Now it really kicks into full gear.

The reason it was so widespread was because the credit agencies committed fraud on behalf of Lehmann, Goldman, and others. This allowed extremely safe investment portfolios to be opened up to these toxic assets and completely wipe their gains to zero.


So my question is retard, where did the government get rich in this? Mae/Mac make a fraction of what all other private banks do. Why continue to blame an entity that you have inherent representation in and put your faith in a private organization that wants your money and doesnt care about you.

>>7547997
thank you

>>7548094

>>7548157
>consolidation periods before every recession due to banks pulling out
>no consolidation today
>recession soon guys

>>7547446
usd is backed by 6800 nuclear warheads

>>7547868
retard, when has that ever not happened

>>7548004
thank you

>>7548097
I did not realise socialist sjw niggers posted here. Sorry. I now realise that your head is filled with shit pumped in there by people who think that for example government interventions in mortgage lending to insist on sub prime loans being available was 'free market' . I get it. You are a socialist. You want to be poor. I just wish to fuck people like you did not have to drag everyone else into their piss poor world. You literally describe continual government interference in marks as the caue of each issue and yet seem oblivious to what you are in fact saying. Indeed government caused and causes every failure in markets, particularly in cushioning necessary failure. Naturally this appeals to faggots like you. Government got more powerful, yes. To the detriment of wealth. Lehmans was afed board member, literally a government entity otherwise it would have been allowed die. More gov interference in markets

>>7548097
That's a good way to sum it up anon, thank you. Fuck the bootlickers

>>7548097
>glass-steagall being repealed by Clinton put into motion this bubble.

HAHAHAHAHA
Countless other 1st world countries had no law like glass steegal and didn't have massive problems like this
Glass steegal is useless

What caused the recession was the federal reserve pumping trillions of dollars into the housing and stock markets.

If you deny this you are an absolute retard.
No wonder libertarians are always right.

>>7548097
>an entity that you have inherent representation in

I don't and never have had a single iota of representation in government throughout my life and I am heading towards 50. I fucking hate giverment with every bone in my body. They have distorted capitalism, justice, media and truth into the most odious self serving shit since the USSR. People like you to love government terrify me. You are literally brainwashed. The ultimate sign of stagnation

>>7548234
>Indeed government caused and causes every failure in markets, particularly in cushioning necessary failure

>government makes the markits fail in not failing to fail grrrrr

>>7548247
>supports printing trillions of dollars and giving it to bankers
>calls us bootlickers because we want to stop this

Lmao holy fuck the irony

>>7548267
>ancap makes an embarrassingly stupid post
not surprised

BUBBLE?

>>7548306
>get btfo and whine about it
LOL

>>7548326
But all the countries you alluded to in >>7548267 that didn't have such legislation are either very statist or shitholes, what do you make of that.

>there are federal reserve defending nocoiner keynesian shills on /biz/ now

What happened?

>>7548349
Canada is more economically free than USA and didn't have such useless fucking laws

Also many euro countries as well
You're blaming the wrong thing

>>7548375
>more economically free
what did he mean by this?

>>7548359
>>there are federal reserve defending nocoiner keynesian shills on /biz/ nowWhat happened?

Brainwashed.

>>7548375
>Be amerimutt
>live in country with a less free market
>but you also don't get free healthcare and stable social services
>you can pay for peoples' condoms tho

Feels good not living in a shithole

>>7548391
Meaning more free market, less government intervention in the economy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_economic_freedom

If you don't even know what this means then you don't belong on this board.

>>7548418
I wish America had a free market in healthcare.
Healthcare would we incredibly cheap if we did.

>>7548418
>>7548418
>stable social services

Family courts
Social workers
Diversity pamphlets
Positive discrimination administrators
LBGT support lines
etc etc

sounds fucking faggotry. Enjoy your shitty healthcare where you have to go to the US if you want the expert in the field.

>>7548476
>I wish America had a free market in healthcare.Healthcare would we incredibly cheap if we did.

This.

>>7548500
Read image

>>7548462
Sorry, when talking to someone as retarded as an Ancap, you need to be sure to find out EXACTLY what they mean

Im assuming you are some Indian living in Canada correct? hey USA looks like its doing very well

>>7548462
>Meaning more free market, less government intervention in the economy.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_economic_freedomIf you don't even know what this means then you don't belong on this board.

Even the 'best' of those distorts markets incredibly by designating certain activities as tax free or lower taxed.

>>7548097
>>7548234
>doesn't think both sides can't be bribed together
>assumes that there is a good and bad side instead of both sides jockeying for the worst position
>muh bureaucratic government or muh oligarch fed markets will save us

>>7548518
In actually a minarchist.
But anyway enjoy being btfo and not being able to refute anything I said.

>>7548528
>Even the 'best' of those distorts markets incredibly by designating certain activities as tax free or lower taxed.

LEL so?
They have lower taxes overall.

I wish the US government got 100% out of healthcare. It's a retarded half-measure that's basically the worst of both worlds.

(I've lived in a country with universal healthcare and it's actually pretty cool, but I'd rather just pay for my own fucking health care, thank you)

>>7548234

that was a lot of ad hominem my man. look, im going to guess you are about 17 with a hardon for ron swansons personality. this is my point, why would you not blame clinton or bush or senators/representatives/governors themselves and take it upon you to be more involved in local elections to push your representation upward?

you will dismantle the bill of rights on your way to sticking it to the "government" only to realize that government is what we make it. sadly, you are a bootlicker

but to speak to your actual point, elected officials are paid large campaign donations in return for regulation/deregulation. This is what happened with G-S and why wall street has gone through 3 bubble cycles since its repeal in the early 90s.


i really just want to hammer this one point home though, why the fuck cant you actually explain the mechanism of power and where the money flows? seriously, only ad hominem

>>7548518
I realised reading this thread that because a generation who really really believe in bg government an regulation and are very vocal and determined about it being slaves of the state, that we are not just in for a recession but decades of increasing poverty and despair backed by borrowing and ever more complex and impossible laws that criminalise everyone. The very act that the Keynesian posters exist on this thread and in large numbers in the general population mean a complete economic collapse is both unavoidable and imminent.

>>7548267
>fed reserve pumping trillions of dollars into the housing and stock markets.

I want you to explain this anon. because when you actually think about it for more than 10 seconds, youd realize all QEs came AFTER the 08 crash and not before. It was an attempt to stave off the worst depression we have ever seen and it has broken the markets irreparably ever since.

>>7548592

I genuinely believe that the only solution to someone as diseased with socialism/communism as you are is a bullet.

>>7548535

see first point here

>>7548592

I'm well aware that both can be bad at the same times and often are. The ultimate point is that you have a bill of rights built in to your government, its about putting the right people in the right positions. A private corporation will assfuck you and have every legal right to do it while leveraging its ill-gotten influence(corporate personhood lol) to keep fucking you in the ass.

>>7548578
>LEL so?

Why are lolbergs so dishonest?

>>7548589
you don't want that, take it from an american. all that happens is insurance companies cutting most plans and only leaving the most barebones insurance plan available and flat out refusing to insure someone that is already sick. don't be america.

>>7548618
>I have no argument so me kill

Lolbertarians are subhuman

>>7548606
>youd realize all QEs came AFTER the 08 crash and not before
Obviously I was referring to artificially low interest rates from the Fed you absolute brainlet.

>>7548592
I wonder what it's like to be this much of a central banker bootlicker.

>>7548618
what a retort dude. im starting to think youre not educated enough to come up with a coherent and truthful statement.

is it possible that im speaking to a 16 y/o underage B& that has no idea what hes saying and only repeating what daddy said at the dinner table?

>>7548671
>>7548650
>if I keep posting pictures of myself it will distract from the fact I have no refutation to anything they are saying

Lol kys bootlicker

>>7548714
>>I have no refutation

Projecting THIS fucking hard

>2D is p-pure because all western womena are liberal coal burning whores who reject me, that's why I don't want them

Thank you /biz. What a great thread and a refreshing change from pajeet shilling. Bravo.

>>7547958
>>7548671
>>7548650
>>7548418
>his entire contribution to the thread is shitposting about imagined racial characteristics of other anonymous posters
kill yourself my dude.

>>7548692
You didn't even reply to our criticisms of your precious central bank printing trillions and pumping it into the stock market.
You also cannot refute that other countries didn't have these stupid fucking laws and didn't have issues like this.


Why are you ignoring what is blatantly obvious?
You piece of shit

>>7548675
oh dont get me wrong friendo, im no banker sympathizer. i want them swinging from the gallows in the near future.

but youre correct, fed rate was squashed to 2% after the dotcom bubble and then went up to 5.00%+ in 08, triggering the recession and then the QEs came.

so forgive me anon.

>>7548751
Everything went fine until the amerimutt bugman ancap ran out of arguments

>i really just want to hammer this one point home though, why the fuck cant you actually explain the mechanism of power and where the money flows? seriously, only ad hominem
>I genuinely believe that the only solution to someone as diseased with socialism/communism as you are is a bullet.

You drown low IQ unironic shitposting with ironic shitposting

>>7548731
>ugly burger STILL cannot refute libertarianism
No wonder your country is such a statist shithole.
I can smell this projection from here lmao

>>7548780
>respond to low IQ shitposters
>feels personally offended so he has to post his sameface generic waifu as reply to me

>>7548777
This is hilarious.

Your side got btfo by 2 major arguments and you're extremely asspained that you cannot refute them and are posting pictures of your extended family and projecting lmao

See:
>>7548755

>>7548826
Did you watch my ID? I never argued, interrogated 1 side a little to better understand their point, I'm on the fence and watching the conversation. I just posted mutts when the lolbergs resorted to death threats instead of answering a question.

>>7548755
>>7548755

see

>>7548770
to your second part about "other countries not having these stupid fucking laws"

1. glass stegall isnt a stupid law, it was the best protection from (((banker))) fraud and manipulation by forcing retail banks(the one that holds your mortgage) and investment banks(the one that holds your gains) from being the same entity. this stops retail banks from overleveraging themselves and taking the entire economy with it.

2. other countries didnt have these laws because america is the fucking exchange king. our financials is what makes the world turn. to point out singapore or estonia does not have these types of laws is pure strawman fallacy, i know youre better than this.

3. do you really think these bankers, these men who truly control the levers of power, will not exert their very obvious global influence to stop something like that from happening?

>>7548814
>admits he's a low IQ shitposter
Well I think we're done here.

The fact that WE ARE LETTING WALL STREET FUCK US IN THE ASS AGAIN. That's the biggest sign.
Instead of reigning in wall street, Trump laxed regulations. Of course, that's what you get for voting in a man who sucks the dicks of corporate jews.

>>7548814
>>7548859

weebs are cancer, dont indulge them.

>>7548869
>I can't read greentext

>>7548859
>I never argued
I know, you shitposted

>death threats
By one guy that wasn't me.
I had points you couldn't counter and it made you sperg all over the thread.

>>7548869
>>7548826
>>7548780

stop ignoring me weeb

>>7548642
Look. Both the government and economy can do good things together. A constitutional government that works case by case with the free market to decide which one takes precedence over the other (free market for added value, constitution to protect citizens, value and protection can trump each other in different cases) Instead, we get crony capitalism where people switch freely between the state and the market and use both to fuck us the most before it crumbles down and the cancer moves to another host country. It's similar to the left vs. right narrative. Coco-cola vs. Pepsi. It's a false choice and arguing who is fucking us worst for internet points is a waste of time.
But what do I know.

There are cases where the added value from a freer market can trump a few select liberties in say, the cold war. But the balance should always snap back every time the situation changes. Sadly, people don't work that way. I agree with you on how a private corporation will take advantage. But not always. Henry Ford tried to make the workplace more tolerable, but it was the government that slapped his hand down. Local businesses are far less likely to screw around with other people as well. I'm just saying don't fall for the false dichotomy.

>>7548826
>>7548859
>>7548868
>>7548869
>>7548873
>>7548893
>>7548895
>>7548900
Had 33,252 btc, clearing out the last 200 btc from this wallet https://blockchain.info/address/3LHcsNvYqeUQybUhAjPu9nXzThyLTUjvHG
Whoever gets the private key first wins. Box will auto delete after it’s gone. Good luck anons.
https://satoshibox.com/mk4hinwc7gv2ioqp86vziv5q

>>7548900
I know I can't counter your points because I don't know enough about economics yet, I'm following the conversation and open to any serious talk that isn't

>DURRRR DURRRRRRR SOCIALISM IS WHEN DA GUBMINTTTTT DOS SOM OF DA STUFFDFDFFD AND GOBUNNISM IS WHEN IT DOES ALL OF DA STUFFF@!!!!

>>7548895
>continuing to be a low IQ shitposter

>>7548873
These so called "regulations" only help wall street.
It was "regulations" that let the government print trillions of dollars and give it to them virtually interest free

>>7548916
>because I don't know enough about economics yet
Then go away you deluded loser.

>I didnt research this topic whatsoever but im going to religiously and fanatically take one side over the other

>>7548905
i agree with everything you said. thats why in all my comments ive championed the idea of holding INDIVIDUALS accountable instead of saying "i hate muh gubmint". stop playing party games and understand a platform and how the world works. i'm totally with you man.

however, i think moving forward, we will be able to throw out a lot of the capitalism we rely on and will be able to provide necessities through automation to an almost post-scarcity level.

>>7548966
>Then go away you deluded loser.

Fuck off cuck I'm here to learn and see both sides of the issue having a genuine conversation. /biz/ has been extremely instructive lately

>>I didnt research this topic whatsoever but im going to religiously and fanatically take one side over the other
>I can't fucking read

The only time I took a side was when some mongrel said "durr u no agree wit me so me shoot"

>>7548929
>>7548966


this dude has literally yet to respond to MY counter points while shitposting to someone else about why THEY havent posted counterpoints when that person has already said they dont have a counterpoint

libertarians being disingenuous? surprise, surprise

>>7548868
>1. glass stegall isnt a stupid law, it was the best protection from (((banker))) fraud and manipulation by forcing retail banks(the one that holds your mortgage) and investment banks(the one that holds your gains) from being the same entity. this stops retail banks from overleveraging themselves and taking the entire economy with it.

No it just made banking less efficient.
Why are other countries extremely successful without these dumb laws?
Also these laws wouldn't have prevented the central bank created financial crisis.

>our financials is what makes the world turn. to point out singapore or estonia does not have these types of laws is pure strawman
Kek
All of the countries that DON'T have these laws collectively have way more of the GDP of USA.

>>7548999
>Fuck off cuck I'm here to learn and see both sides of the issue
By angrily shitposting?

>The only time I took a side was when some mongrel said "durr u no agree wit me so me shoot"
Again this wasn't me, dummy.

>>7549001
Literally the next post after this is my reply.
I'm on my phone you faggot.

>>7548981
I don't have such rosy optimism for benevolence through prosperity. Although, it depends if the people will wake up to chemo certain globalist shills or that the collapse is so sudden that they cannot move to another country. If not, that prosperity will be used to fuel the very stuff of nightmares.
Hopefully I won't live to see it.

>>7546660
water drought stuff

>>7549078
>by angrily shitposting
I'm not impeding you from actually discussing economics with the slighter shade of blue ID, you're the one shirking it

>Again this wasn't me, dummy.
I never said that holy fucking shit

You just replied to me with an anime girl because I was trolling the shitposter

>I'm on my phone you faggot
Pic

>>7547253
пoшёл нaхyй, пидopac

>>7546878
Housing crises was due to spics risky behavior

>>7549036
it made banking less efficient? you fucking idiot, it made banking safe. you know whats really unefficient? inflating the stock market to ATH and then wiping out every bit of it along with 3million foreclosures.

its a market safeguard and protects investors/market itself. the only argument you keep spinning is that its regulation and therefore inherently bad because foxnews told you so.

glass steagall would have objectively stopped the financial crisis from happening because then retail banks wouldnt have flopped. i think youre not exactly understanding desu because if you did you wouldnt have said that.

2. cool? that has nothing to do with the fact that american banking makes the world turn. what does the collective GDP of the world versus america have to do with anything that we talked about.

>>7547848

Hello, I work at a major Silicon Valley tech company. I’m here to tell you that despite lower volume, Apple’s profit margins are light years ahead of their competition’s due to deeply-entrenched advantages in hardware engineering and supply chain management. They are sitting on hundreds of billions in cash. They own half of Cupertino. They have an absolutely reliable base of costumers and third-party developers. They are a well-oiled profit machine, and they aren’t going anywhere for at least another decade or so.

So kys kid

>>7549113
> I'm here to learn from both sides
> angrily shitposts to me
Lmao

>I'm not impeding you from actually discussing economics
Which I literally have been doing lmao

>>7549212
>watch thread
>try to learn from both sides
>someone poses a question
>somebody responds with a threat
>post mutt memes
>weeb intervenes
>now we are endlessly poring over who did what

Just continue the actual debate, are you scared?

>there will never be another recession guys those day are over. we can trust central banks and things will just keep going up forever!

people like this actually browse biz now. what the fuck happened?

>>7549252
4chan is a never ending stream of underage, its all anonymous so it feels like the community isnt undergoing churn but it is.

if we assume everyone on biz is atleast 18 that would put these posters at the age of eight years old when the market melted down. they don't remember at all, had no effect on them. for all the underage posters here, this is an exponential effect.

>>7549197
>you fucking idiot, it made banking safe.
No it didn't
There we're still recessions with these laws in place.
These laws are USELESS and wouldn't have prevented the recession.
You're deluded if you think they would.

>foxnews
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
You know a leftist is SERIOUSLY losing an argument when they pull out this fine gem. LMAO

>cool? that has nothing to do with the fact that american banking makes the world turn.
Holy shit America isn't the entire world
Your argument is useless. Most of Europe doesn't even have these laws and their banking sector and economy is huge.

For the libertarian position on these dumb laws read:
https://mises.org/blog/why-not-replace-dodd-frank-glass-steagall
https://mises.org/library/does-it-make-sense-resurrect-glass-steagall-act

>>7549241
Lol you didn't even only reply to the guy making threats
You angrily shitposted at 2 more people.

>h-here to learn
LOL

>>7549252
Just a keynesian redditor invasion.

>>7549337
ok you asked for it lad

>>7549252
It got popular.

Daily reminder keynesians and leftists are braindead and the crypto revolution will prove them wrong.

Sorry leftist nocoiners.

>>7549311
look mr underage, yes, the economy can still go through recessions even with that law in place. im going to reiterate you don't know what youre talking about because its not designed to make the stock market go up and never down. its to make sure your mortgage money isnt gone when papa broker wants to go all in on subprime derivatives.

you probably do watch fox news because you sound like it though

>america isnt the whole world
no but our banks are kek, like ive been saying for the last 3 comments. cool link to mises.org, i see theyre located in auburn, alabama. war eagle.

you have a strong belief in your ideology because you think it reflects well on you as a person. you think if you trash the government that makes you a self made capitalist. unfortunately you're just a dumb kid puffing his chest out with no clue whats on the other side of high school retirement.


i can't continue to comment back to you if you continue to fundamentally misunderstand glass-steagall

>>7549513
>underage
Lol the irony

I wrote an entire detailed post but accidentally clicked on the banner ad instead of submit and the entire thing is gone now

Not writing it again

Check out those mises articles if you want to understand the libertarian position on these things.
A free market would prevent the problems you are talking about
Derivatives and bullshit comes from central banks printing money and giving it to these banks
Also if there was a free market in banking, banks would be forced to compete on safety like they used to

Also I bet you unironically watch msnbc and cnn lol
Claiming someone watches fox news basically just shows you're a redditor manchild with no argument.

>>7548481
Whats wrong w social workers? I am one

>>7549311
I'm reading the 2nd article and it's a very interesting read, but in our suppositious scenario of an entirely free market of banks, fractional reserve banking must still be practiced, albeit at a reduced rate, so that a bank may produce profits. If it wouldn't, it would not have a means to offset the maitenance costs of being a bank. So we now have a market where there is some risk of bank insolvency which depends on other factors.

Is this not true? What's the libertarian take on this, that this is yet better than the option of central banking and never-ending inflation?

>>7549513
>you have a strong belief in your ideology because you think it reflects well on you as a person. you think if you trash the government that makes you a self made capitalist.
No I just don't want to be over by governments, corporations and leftists.

>>7547262
Well faggot they did in fact cause the bubble , but you refuse to see it because you are in denial.

>>7549812
Depending on the program Fox isn’t half bad. Definitely the best of the American mainstream media imo (Im saying this as a non American)

>>7549831
> If it wouldn't, it would not have a means to offset the maitenance costs of being a bank.

>what are bank fees

In case you missed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=845hlC_BqCM

>>7549513
>no but our banks are
There are many banks bigger than American banks in economies larger than USA.
See Europe.

Your argument falls apart.

>>7549854
Shit that is contingent on a continuous supply of money from presumably employed, regular-wage-earning patrons. A slump in wages produced by a recession risks a bank run nonetheless. It is definitely a solution though. Might be hard to start up new banks because of economies of scale though (more depositors = have to charge less for marginal deposits), which could result in an eventual bank monopoly eventually, wouldn't it?

>>7549893
Why is rand so based?

He's like the only senator that is actually making sense.

He should have been president.

>>7549920
SHORT

>>7547848
You literally are retarded. Who cares what you think about apple ? Their profits speak for themselves.

>>7549920
He dropped out too early. Maybe next time if there is a next time.

>>7548929
Yes, the regulations help Wall Street. That must be why they spend literally billions on bribing congressmen to have them repealed.

Fucking idiot.

>>7546660
>unaffordable housing
>right on the doorstep of a major stock market crash
>absolutely huge college debt (trillion+)
>wages stagnant and buying power falling for many decades
>disunity growing further everyday

no bubble or recession soon at all goy.

>>7546705
Anon the mortgage crisis started in 2007 already and its effects for the wider economy were pretty widely understood

>>7549992
> it's a good thing the government prints trillions of dollars and gives it to bankers

Lol fucking idiot

>>7549812
There's nothing I love more than rednecks who are fighting for us bankers to have a better life.

Just weighing in here:

Centralization of capital and continuous boom & bust cycles resulting from speculation on the part of the holders of capital aren the inevitable end result of privatization of capital. Those who possess resources will leverage them to create market scenarios most favorable to their immediate benefit, rather than those which are most efficient.

Cetral ecoomic planning would allow for the most efficient allocation and use of scarce resources. The problem: who to trust with that planning?

Democratic means are not reliable or stable. Autocratic means tend to create situations resembling privatization, but without any means of accountability.

Is syndicalism a possible solution?

>>7550058
There's nothing I love more than leftists who sperg and rage autistically when libertarians point out the fact leftists support printing trillions of dollars and giving it to bankers.

It makes my dick so hard.
Liberals in USA are ironically the biggest corporate whores.

>>7550082
MarkSoc economy but you need an extremely educated population to arrange such an economy. It's feasible but good luck educating billions of changs, pajeets and babus and that's only if you get a functional world government or supranational consensus.

>>7550082
>Cetral ecoomic planning would allow for the most efficient allocation and use of scarce resources.
How many fucking times do you socialists have to get BTFO by real world examples before you take a good look at yourself and realise you are wrong.

Centralization doesn't work.

>>7550125
Socialism doesn't work
You can't have a centralized power know all economic knowledge in every point in time.
It's fucking impossible.

>>7550116
I'll be honest: I've loved Trump's deregulating the shit out of everything as someone who's in finance in a coastal cities. Literally took home my largest bonus last year thanks to Republicans

>>7546660
>despite we've "recovered" from the last recession everyone is poorer
>as soon as central banks start slowing down on the 0% interest rate drug markets shit themself
>housing still expensive as fuck
>millennials getting fucked in the job markets
>nothing really changed from 2007 on a systemic level

things should've changed after the 2007 crash.
instead only in the US we blew 1 trillion to keep a parasitic class alive for a few more cycles.
next time the central banks will have fewer options. things are going to be ogre

>>7550184
>market socialism

It's basically the economy being run by capitalist cooperatives. Go on /leftypol/ and all the dicksucking fags there will moan and complain that it's capitalism with a human face or some shit

>>7550207
Either way it's deluded and leftypol is fucking retarded.

>>7547225
Fiat inflation or deflation in the long run? I'm guessing the scheme will play out so that first asset markets are crashed by banks raising rates to prevent hyperinflation from happening. Banks have tons of fake money in stocks and bonds so if people start pulling out in anticipation of a crash the forget fiat will flood the system. Banks will try to make money scarcer with higher rates and more importantly pull their money out of assets before anybody else can. Now banks have avoided hyperinflation because they have their printed fiat back and safely out of circulation.

Next, the economy will obviously crash with the asset markers going down. Once the situation has stabilized banks want to bring inflation back to encourage spending and avoid a long-lasting depression. They'll do so by decreasing rates, perhaps even making them negative. Eventually things will cool off and money will flow back into the markets.

In anticipation of this being what's gonna happen, I think the best bet is to hold fiat waiting for the coming crash, then act quickly and start buying into investments oncw banka kick off emergency econ stimulus?

>>7550241
How do you think crypto will fair in this scenario?

>>7550239
>it's deluded

Cooperatives exist nowadays and they can work. You just need a very civilized society on which to predicate such a system. It's also an answer to the formation of monopolies since you can expect business to rather operate as decentralized franchises.

>>7550264
Probably down sadly. Unsafe and speculative, but might go up as a middle finger to banks

QUICK AMERICANS
YOU HAVE 10 SECONDS TO TELL THE THREAD SOMETHING THAT YOUR PUBLIC SCHOOL TAUGHT YOU ABOUT SOMETHING AMERICAN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DID WRONG

>>7546700
>I would say the biggest one is the 10 year ultra-low interest rates and the retail debt
this

Lol I never thought I'd see the day where the yield curve was posted on biz...

>>7547941
>banks lend to literal drugs addicts to reap in bonuses due to gubmint evil deeds
fucking idiot

>>7550266
>Cooperatives exist nowadays and they can work
>muh monodragons

The main reason worker owned firms don't dominate the economy today is because they are inefficient and can't get prices down low enough.

Also if the entire economy was run by worker owned firms, living standards for the average worker would either stay exactly the same or go down.
The working class buys and consumes 99% of all consumer goods.
Giving them more money would just cause price increases.

Socialism still doesn't work, don't worry, it's still a stupid idea.

>>7547527
>generation useless
I mean it's not their fault they don't have any real jobs to go to. All the rich generations were working manufacturing and getting fucking paid.

>>7550334
How would they make money from drug addicts? Wouldn't they lose their money?
What are you even saying?

>>7550347
>Giving them more money would just cause price increases.
It would cause inflation due to increased velocity of money in the consumer department but normally that money would be used to increase the productivity of consumer goods, meaning that more capital would pursue consumer goods than in our current economy where a large portion of capital follows capital.

No doubt inflation would happen but if the purchasing power stays above it in the long term what's the matter?

>socialism is a stupid idea

b-but it's not REAL socialism

>>7548053
>>7548031
based

>>7548929
Being for absolute deregulation is sickening. This is why Trump is destroying America, this tax bill and the repeal of Dodd Frank has shown that he has aligned with the interests of the corporate jewish kind

>>7546660
This is it:

https://www.newyorkfed.org/newsevents/news/research/2017/rp170517

The USA "recovery" comes from that debt. Once the flow stops, it's recession time.

It will probably happen before the midterms

How likely is it that we never really recovered from 2008, and the past decade has just been like shooting up painkillers hoping everything doesn't implode again?

Who would be the austerity/anti-bailout major party in case the recession happens soon? The republicans or neither?

>>7550498
We didn't really recover from 2008 though. Why do you think all the rural communities are pissed?

The "recovery" was just debt money going to massive city centers. Nothing has really changed

>>7550408
>that money would be used to increase the productivity of consumer goods,
Holy shit that's retarded
That's the same keynesian theories that have failed us.
What creates more consumer goods is cheaper capital goods and savings.
Also to think this wouldn't cause inflation is absurd. The supply of consumer goods would be the exact same.


>b-but it's not REAL socialism
Real or fake socialism all doesn't work.

>>7550498
there has been NO economic recovery whatsoever.

>>7550475
Your a fucking idiot.
Reducing government intervention in the economy REDUCES corporate power.

People like you want to print trillions of dollars and give it to bankers.

Dodd Frank is another useless bill.

>>7550560
more money = buy more capital = more shit to sell

>what creates more consumer goods is savings
I'm all ears lad

>Also to think this wouldn't cause inflation is absurd.
I never denied that inflation would occur
>The supply of consumer goods would be the exact same.
I explained why I believe it should increase, I welcome a rebuttal

>>7550498
More than just the past decade. Basically everything since the post WWII boom is artificially inflated by government debt money.

The problem is Americans are so addicted to it they would never stand for years or decades of more realistic .2-.3% growth. They want the economy to be increasing all the time, in substantial margins. So all the "End the Fed"ers should really be "Stop Retards from borrowing shit they can't afford." The result would be the same.

Until that happens there will continue to be a need for debt money.

People correlate market growth with economic growth. Economically, we haven't truly recovered from 2008. The federal reserve are playing with numbers that fit with their definition of a strong economy.

>>7550614
>So all the "End the Fed"ers should really be "Stop Retards from borrowing shit they can't afford." The result would be the same.

Stopping retards from borrowing shit they can't afford is cool but we really need debt free money to go with it.

>>7550587
>Reducing government intervention in the economy REDUCES corporate power

I'd like to know one instance in history that this has EVER been true

>>7550638
It'll never happen. if two financial entities have the same amount of capital, the one with more leverage from debt will have more buying power.

>>7550683
>It'll never happen
then we are fucked and are going to have to be like the amish or start getting paid under the table

>>7550649
Literally any time a government-granted monopoly was ended?

>>7550621
this.

the market wasnt allowed to get the bad investment and debt out of it through failure. propping up those debt infested firms has turned the US economy into a zombie. I would argue that it started in 1997-2000 and not post war ww2.

>>7550792
>using the catch all term "government intervention" when you just meant utility monopolies.

retard

>>7550808
I didn't know patents were utilities.

>>7550793
>>7550621
how come we know this shit and aren't in charge

why aren't our rulers benevolent?

>>7550605
>more money = buy more capital = more shit to sell
LOL But the price of that capital now increases.
How do you not understand this?

You people are trying to use magic to somehow create more resources than already exist.

>I never denied that inflation would occur
Inflation would not only occur, but it would completely negate any benefits of a worker owned firm.
This is why workers taking over the means of production is stupid and a fruitless endeavor.

>I welcome a rebuttal
What you said didn't even make sense.

>meaning that more capital would pursue consumer goods
Less capital would pursue the creation of consumer goods because capital goods would be more expensive.

>our current economy where a large portion of capital follows capital.
Elaborate.

>>7550116
you dumb fuck, you realize he was calling you an idiot right?

>>7547253
Please don't place RUR into one line with other currencies. As a fellow Russian it highly offends me. RUR is literally backed up by USD, so if USD crashes, RUR will too. We have feudalistic state and quite proud of that, we don't need your technology advances, stock markets or anything else of the sorts.

>>7550808
>>7550649
Government interventions do nothing but prop up larger firms at the expense of smaller ones.
Removing these economic controls allows for smaller firms to compete with larger ones.

>>7550872
you dumb fuck, you do realize I was mocking his misplaced sarcasm right?

Also you literally have SOY in your name.

>the USD explodes
>people realize bitcoin has no correlation with regular financial markets
>trillions of dollars rush into bitcoin

I hope you faggots don't plan to sell.

Daily reminder the first country to eliminate their central bank and allow free market banking will have the highest living standards on earth within 5 years.

Massive high paying service sector jobs with dominate this country's economy to consume the goods the rest of the world has to produce for it.

The workweek would shrink to 2-3 days a week and people would retire much earlier. This will also lead to more jobs becoming available.

Everyone would have high saving rates. Houses would be inexpensive. Debt would be strongly discouraged economically.

Massive automation would take place as the cost of capital goods would be extremely cheap. This will lead to massive levels of technological innovation.

It would be extremely easy for the average person to start a business due to the cheap cost of capital goods.

Daily reminder actual free markets have prices falling all the time instead is going up.

Daily reminder America never had a system of free market banking for most of it's history. There were only patches of American history with free market banking. The panics that happened during the 1800s were due to government intervention in the banking sector. Sweden had the longest most successful period of free banking and that's what made them really rich.

Daily reminder the longest period of (relatively)free banking in America coincided with the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION where wages rose and prices fell.

Daily reminder central banks are the very reason the economy is a pile of shit and our generation is so fucked.

Basically what I'm saying is if we had a free market, the entire fucking country would be disneyland or universal studios and people would barely have to work.

Why would you NOT support this unless you were a corporate shill parasite?

>>7550869
Price of capital increases only after it starts being bought faster. Sellers do not have prescient abilities to raise the price of capital because it is bought.
Sure, it's not a constant 1:1 but more money still means that more capital will be bought, which results in greater productivity with inflation as a consequence.

>You people are trying to use magic to somehow create more resources than already exist.
More money would stimulate the extraction of more resources.

>Inflation would not only occur, but it would completely negate any benefits of a worker owned firm.

Inflation has to be zimbabwe-tier to absolutely negate any tangible benefit of increased revenue.

It varies from the starting conditions on which market socialism would be established, the resulting inflation could be slight or it could be devastating indeed, we can argue about ambiguities all day.

>What you said didn't even make sense.
Read a book nigger.

>Less capital would pursue the creation of consumer goods because capital goods would be more expensive.
Capital would become more expensive in turn but some increase in productivity would still be noticeable in a majority of cases depending on circumstances I've mentioned before.

>Elaborate.
Speculative enterprises, credit derivatives, etc. , money chasing money that's chasing money.

Obviously loans to companies for the purpose of increasing productivity would still be conducted but when every employee is a shareholder of their local enterprise less assest would be concentrated in the hands of a minority that is exponentially increasing their gains on liquid asset markets

>>7550930
Daily reminder that every country that has eliminated their central banks has been destroyed or their politicians assassinated. When was the last time it was tried? Hitler?

>>7550891
yeah because the barriers to market entry for banks is low right?

all those small businesses are really taking on the banking industry, you know, one of the most consolidated industries in america?

>>7550930
>reddit spacing

>>7550821
are you talking about intellectual property rights? what the fuck are you talking about kid, you libertarians are so disingenuous. you go from talking about monopolies to patents

>>7550840
because we know this shit.

unironically because we're not rich.

>>7549177
that's a funny way to spell bankerjew.

>>7551044
>you go from talking about monopolies to patents
A patent is literally a monopoly though. You can google the word if it's that unfamiliar to you.

Aren’t we in a position where the Fed has run out of moves once we have another crash? Seems like when that happens the world will be in so much trouble. By kicking the can down the road for so long when we have to finally face the consequences of all this it’s going to be brutal.

>>7550996
nope, the last time was Kennedy.

>>7551108
https://www.stopfakes.gov/article?id=What-is-a-Patent

ctrl + f "monopolies" + "Monopoly" = zero results

a patent is a monopoly on an idea or design. we call this intellectual property.

>>7551131
Kennedy didn't try to get rid of fed

>>7550983
>Price of capital increases only after it starts being bought faster.
All prices of goods in the economy would increase stupid.

We're talking about a scenario where suddenly the entire country is worker owned firms. This adjustment in prices wouldn't be gradual, it would happen extremely quickly. It would also stop extremely quickly. It would be a one time thing.

>Sure, it's not a constant 1:1 but more money still means that more capital will be bought
The supply of capital stays exactly the same though.

>More money would stimulate
>muh stimulation
kek
inflation has never actually stimulated real economic growth, keynesian are deluded
During the deflationary gold standard period of late 1800s in USA we had double digit economic growth rates. We have had high inflation basically since nixon got us off the gold standard in 1970 and economic growth has stagnated.

>Inflation has to be zimbabwe-tier to absolutely negate any tangible benefit of increased revenue.
KEK
What part of the same amount of resources would exist do you not understand?
Also if all of the workers suddenly had all of the profits from the firm instead of being saved by the capitalist and went to spend that money, obviously there would be MASSIVE zimbabwe tier inflation very quickly.

>the resulting inflation could be slight or it could be devastating indeed, we can argue about ambiguities all day.
Why would it not be incredibly massive?

>Read a book nigger.
Come up with better arguments nigger.

>but some increase in productivity would still be noticeable
No it wouldn't, if the price of capital becomes more expensive, less consumer goods would be created.
You need to increase the supply of capital goods before you increase the supply of consumer goods.

>Speculative enterprises, credit derivatives, etc. , money chasing money that's chasing money.
Yes, all central bank created garbage.
All which wouldn't exist in a free market.

>>7551117
yes.

it absolutely will be. when the financial markets collapse and the wars break out, it will either shake out into a full blown neo-fudalism or we land in "post scarcity" automation land

>>7551142
He was trying. He printed US notes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar

He also had an executive order to transition to US Notes instead of Federal Reserve notes and when he was killed LITERALLY the first thing LBJ did was rescind it. JFK was seriously a fucking retard for trying that Jew LBJ as his vice president.

>>7551179
>>7551131
Whoops sorry wrong link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Note

>>7550983
>but when every employee is a shareholder of their local enterprise less assest would be concentrated in the hands of a minority that is exponentially increasing their gains on liquid asset markets
So savings in the economy on the whole is decreased and we end up with the terrible situation we have today.

>>7551009
>yeah because the barriers to market entry for banks is low right?
It's extremely high right now BECAUSE of these government regulations you fucking idiot.

>one of the most consolidated industries in america?
LOL WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S SO CONSOLIDATED?

>>7551142
you must be 18 to post here.

>>7550930
This delusion is akin to socialists who always bitch that there has never been a TRUE socialist society

>>7551012
>being mad at things being easily readable
>having autism

>>7551044
>patents aren't legal monopolies
Oh anon...

>>7551139
IP, patents and copyright are government granted monopolies on ideas though.
They don't exist in a free market.

Libertarians are always consistent, fuck you.

>>7551139
>The right conferred by the patent grant is "the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling" the invention in the United States or "importing" the invention into the United States for a limited time in exchange for public disclosure of the invention when the patent is granted.
You can stoop to semantics all you want, but I don't think you'll find it very convincing an argument.

>>7551213
How is this delusional?
I literally posted examples of my ideal system ACTUALLY EXISTING many times in the world and being quite successful.

Idiot.

>>7551199
>>7551199
im fucking tired of arguing with you /pol/tards on every other board. retail, brick and mortar banks SHOULD have a high amount of regulation to protect citizen and consumer assets like homes.

its consolidated because of the amount of capital in play and how little congress cares to break up acquisitions/mergers.

>>7551248
>Basically what I'm saying is if we had a free market, the entire fucking country would be disneyland or universal studios and people would barely have to work.
in what fucking universe has there been a working real-world scenario like this. go to bed 13 year old.

>>7551179
>>7551208
>He also had an executive order to transition to US Notes instead of Federal Reserve notes and when he was killed LITERALLY the first thing LBJ did was rescind it. JFK was seriously a fucking retard for trying that Jew LBJ as his vice president.


No, that never fucking happened. It's a dumb conspiracy that has been posted all over the internet because morons like you believe it.

What Keneddy actually was trying to do withe executive order 11110 was to get rid of silver certificates. What he did would actually have increased the power of the FED.

And the first thing LBJ was not to rescind that order. He didn't even touch it. The order was revoked by the reagan administracion while they were trying to get rid of old and useless executive orders

>I am edgy and I hate the FED so Kennedy must have been killed because of it
God how people can be so stupid

>>7551230


are you seriously accussing me of being pedantic when you used the word monopolies to describe patents? i spoke to your point about monopolies from then which you told you me you actually meant patents.

then you told me to look up the word because im a retard so i did and showed you from the fucking government patent office there is no mention of the word monopoly but what you refer to is intellectual property.

now because you realize how retarded you are, youre going to gaslight and call me pedantic lmao.

>>7551276
>m fucking tired of arguing with you /pol/tards on every other board
>EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME OR BTFO ME IS /pol/

This is embarrassing.

>retail, brick and mortar banks SHOULD have a high amount of regulation to protect citizen and consumer assets like homes.
But they don't though, all of these regulations just empower banks and make them immune from market forces.

Why was Sweden's 100 year experiment with free banking a massive success?

>its consolidated because of the amount of capital in play
No, it's consolidated because of government central banks and government interventions which just gives massive power to banks.

>>7551298
That is the only half joking hypothetical point in that ENTIRE post and it's the only thing you got out of it because you couldn't refute anything else.
Sad.

>>7546878
Do you have a gut feeling of when the housing crisis will occur? I had hoped I would have enough with crypto to get a house at a point but looks like that's not gonna happen. A housing crisis leading to cheap housing would help me reach my goal if I survive crypto bear market/crash.

>>7551337
Interesting if true.
I've never actually looked into this.

Source?

>>7551343
>are you seriously accussing me of being pedantic when you used the word monopolies to describe patents?
How fucking retarded are you?
How the fuck is a patent not a government granted monopoly?
It's the literal definition of the thing.
How fucking stupid are you?

If someone has a patent and I copy that persons idea and try to sell it I will be thrown in jail.
M O N O P O L Y

>>7546660
always watch what the niggers are investing in, when you saw the niggers get loans for houses you knew shit was about to go down

>>7551389
big if true

>>7551355
Did you even read the examples you copypasted you dumb fuck.

>
>Daily reminder actual free markets have prices falling all the time instead is going up.

HAHAHAHA. Does your brainlet mind realize that this also causes wages to decline? Wages are prices you faggot

>>7551337
>they're scared

>>7551337
http://rense.com/general76/jfkvs.htm

here you are, dumb faggot. pathetic FUD attempt on your part.

>>7551440
>HAHAHAHA. Does your brainlet mind realize that this also causes wages to decline? Wages are prices you faggot
LOL
Wages can go down yes, but prices for other goods go down FASTER because they are actually being mass produced. This is how living standards increase.
This is why the industrial revolution happened.

Stupid faggot

>>7551389
because we're sitting here talking about markets and market monopolies. this idiot uses the word monopoly in this thread where there has already been context established. he then uses that word to describe patents when he could have easily used the word intellectual property.

again, continue to move the goalposts because i actually looked it up to show you the gov patent office doesnt use the word monopoly to describe the patent.

say what you fucking mean. dont use slang or placeholder words when trying to have a technical discussion. words have meaning and that matters. get it fucking right if you want credibility 12 year old.

>>7551173
>We're talking about a scenario where suddenly the entire country is worker owned firms. This adjustment in prices wouldn't be gradual, it would happen extremely quickly. It would also stop extremely quickly. It would be a one time thing.
Never specified the spontaneity of the change, it would logically have to be a gradual transition if we want to avoid what you described

>inflation has never actually stimulated real economic growth, keynesian are deluded
>During the deflationary gold standard period of late 1800s in USA we had double digit economic growth rates. We have had high inflation basically since nixon got us off the gold standard in 1970 and economic growth has stagnated.

Those are two very differant ages but if you have any reading to recommend I'd pick it up.

>Why would it not be incredibly massive?

Idk, it depends entirely on what sums the workers allocate to their own consumption and how much they reserve for the improvement of their own company, assuming that the population is highly educated as prescribed they shouldn't fuck everything up instantly.

>Come up with better arguments nigger.
Thought you were talking about my phrasing.

>No it wouldn't, if the price of capital becomes more expensive, less consumer goods would be created.
You need to increase the supply of capital goods before you increase the supply of consumer goods.

good point

>Yes, all central bank created garbage.
All which wouldn't exist in a free market.

I'm not arguing against a free market?

>>7551479
yeah the industrial revolution where everyone was literally working 100 hour workweeks in factories until MUH REGULATION stopped it

>>7551479
>This is why the industrial revolution happened.
fucking dropped.
discredited.
anyone listening to this jackass beyond this point has a low Intelligence Quotient.

>>7551482
>because we're sitting here talking about markets and market monopolies.
How the FUCK are patents/IP/copyright not a market monopoly?

>he then uses that word to describe patents when he could have easily used the word intellectual property.
IP is literally an example of a MONOPOLY
That anon used that as an example.
He was right, you were wrong.
Deal with it.

>continue to move the goalposts
EXACTLY what you are doing right now

>because i actually looked it up to show you the gov patent office doesnt use the word monopoly to describe the patent.
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
No SHIT they don't.
and the federal reserve doesn't say they are corrupt, and bitconnect doesn't say they are a scam
Your point?

>>7551343
>are you seriously accussing me of being pedantic when you used the word monopolies to describe patents?
Actually I used the word "monopolies" to describe monopolies, you then attempted to put word in my mouth by suggesting I used "monopolies" to describe utilities, which I corrected by bringing up patents simply as another (but not only) form that government-created monopolies have taken.

I mean it seems silly of you to imply that something directly called a monopoly by Thomas Jefferson is not, in fact, a monopoly.

>>7546660
the Baltic Dry Index, but it's probably just a meme

>>7551504
>it would logically have to be a gradual transition if we want to avoid what you described
But it's literally inevitable and it would be the end GOAL of the workers in such a system.
Also how could you even have a transition like that?
How do you slowly transition from a capitalist owned firm to a worker owned firm?

>Those are two very differant ages
Does the laws of economics magically change in different time periods?

>it depends entirely on what sums the workers allocate to their own consumption and how much they reserve for the improvement of their own company,
Obviously if they aren't literal brainlets they are going to advocate some to the company itself. But the rest of the money which would previously be saved by the capitalist is going to be distributed towards the workers, they are going to spend this money and prices are going to increase.
The workers will be in the same position they were before.
Market socialism is pointless.

>assuming that the population is highly educated as prescribed they shouldn't fuck everything up instantly.
Even allocating a tiny bit of money more than would have been saved by the capitalist to the workers will cause inflation and living standards will remain the same.

>I'm not arguing against a free market?
Okay, but you were explaining how this system would be superior to the current system rather than a free market.

>>7547848
>a laptop no one buys

http://rack1.ul.cs.cmu.edu/jefferson/
For those interested in learning a little bit more about how patents are literal monopolies that the founding fathers decided to make an exception for because they thought scientific progress would be better with them.

>"I sincerely rejoice at the acceptance of our new constitution by nine states. It is a good canvas, on which some strokes only want re-touching. What these are, I think are sufficiently manifested by the general voice from North to South, which calls for a bill of rights. It seems pretty generally understood that this should go to juries, habeas corpus, standing armies, printing, religion and monopolies. I conceive there may be difficulty in finding general modification of these suited to the habits of all the states. But if such cannot be found then it is better to establish trials by jury, the right of Habeas corpus, freedom of the press and freedom of religion in all cases, and to abolish standing armies in time of peace, and monopolies, in all cases, than not to do it in any... The saying there shall be no monopolies lessens the incitements to ingenuity, which is spurred on by the hope of a monopoly for a limited time, as of 14 years; but the benefit even of limited monopolies is too doubtful to be opposed to that of their general suppression."

Could a kind and knowledgable anon let me know how they would position themself if they were poor and an economic crisis was coming?

If your net worth was 10k with 90% net exposure to crypto, what would you do to protect yourself?

Everyone stop arguing for a second and explain whats likely to happen in this next big recession? How will it effect everyday folk?

>>7551604
you should have went with the first line about 6 comments ago because i would have believed you and have enough dignity and honesty to admit when ive jumped to a conclusion or made a fallacy.


so going back you replied to >>7550649 who stated that he wants to know when corporate power has gone down after deregulation.

you responded >>7550792 with "literally any time a government granted monopoly was ended"

and then you skirted into patents to prop up that failed statement. you were talking about market monopolies the entire time.

>>7551704
lol

'08 x 10

>>7551510
>yeah the industrial revolution where everyone was literally working 100 hour workweeks
I'm so fucking sick of refuting this dumb fucking argument.
Think about what you are saying.
Why do you literal brainlets even exist?

For almost all of human history people have lived in abject poverty with long as fuck working hours. It was capitalism and industrialization that lifted them out of poverty.

Workers in the USA during this era had the highest wages on EARTH and the highest wages in all of history and living standards increased every year.
People came from all over Europe to work in american factories where wages were higher.

Industrialization takes time nigger. You are acting like the government could have passed a law and living standards would have magically rose to what we have today.

D E L U S I O N A L

>until MUH REGULATION stopped it
child labour laws and muh lower working hours laws came much later after the market had already ended child labour and massively reduced working hours
pic related

>>7551535
Okay, I'll rephrase my point.

"Without this deflationary sound money, the industrial revolution either wouldn't have happened or would have happened a lot slower. Deflation was necessary."

Happy?

>>7550374
>what is 2007 sub-prime crysis?

>>7551748
>it was capitalism and industrialization that lifted them out of power.

good lord, no it wasnt. it was capitalism that allowed capital to be poured into investments allowing industrialization to take place and create more money.

it was labor activists and the great depression that changed that. to point that europeans came here to work in our factories is also a fallacy. america had the best of the time but the entirety of the industrialized worlds working class was pretty fucking downtrodden my dude.

the ability to mass produce meat in processing facilities didnt make americans have a better standard of living. it just allowed capitalists to extract more value from labour at a lower cost, more efficiently. if i remember correctly, it ended up with peoples body parts in the meat until people were over that shit and demanded regulation.

>>7551707
>so going back you replied to >>7550649 who stated that he wants to know when corporate power has gone down after deregulation.

You know we really haven't had much deregulation in history.
We've mostly just added on more regulation.

>>7551811
>>what is 2007 sub-prime crysis?
Government central bank printing trillions of dollars, giving it to bankers who used this money to pump the housing market?

Idiot.

>>7551663
>Does the laws of economics magically change in different time periods?

Technology and the amound that can be improved upin does, yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solow–Swan_model

>they are going to spend this money and prices are going to increase.

The % price rise will not be 1:1 to the % increase in wages, it shouldn't normally. Therefore purchasing power increases.

>Even allocating a tiny bit of money more than would have been saved by the capitalist to the workers will cause inflation and living standards will remain the same.
Short-term yes, long-term no.

>Okay, but you were explaining how this system would be superior to the current system rather than a free market.
I'm proposing just another alternative

>>7551776
The Industrial Revolution was literally financed by corporations taking out loans in order to finance production.

B R A I N L E T

>>7546660
>Literally almost everyone goes into debt that most of them will never be able to climb out of
>Higher education bubble - young people are signing up for 5-6 figure loans for degrees that are completely worthless in the real world, graduate and can't find a job. Surprise surprise, they begin voting for more parasitic government because they are left with no other option and were brainwashed to do it by their dipshit professors.
>New housing bubble - housing is beginning to be unaffordable, especially to younger people
>Baby Boomers unable to retire - some are able to, but many squandered their earnings and never saved, and there will be a huge crisis of boomers who will stay in the work force until they are dead or incapacitated. This leaves less upward mobility for younger people in lower job positions.
>Automation (arguable) - More and more low-skill jobs are being rendered obsolete by various forms of automation. The West in particular has been importing third world immigrants who bring no value to the country other than low-skill labor, and with most of these jobs rendered obsolete they will become parasites of the tax payer.
>$21 trillion in debt, this can't go on forever

I have a feeling there's gonna be a shitstorm that will make 2008 look like a slight shit-drizzle

>>7551707
Why any of my responses be different when literally everything I've posted has been true? You being unnecessarily obtuse is not my fault.

>>7551839
> Everytime something bad happens in the economy its always because MUH GUBMIT PRINTING MONEYS

>>7551901
>Plane is going down
>Just keep pulling up on the yoke, duh

>>7551881
I do find it hilarious that Republicans completely stopped giving a shit about the gigantic fucking debt mountain that's going to sink the US Economy as soon as they got into power

>>7551900
Why should*

>>7551832
>good lord, no it wasnt.
Holy shit.
You REALLY want to go down this route you absolute brainlet?
It's like you're arguing against gravity existing.
Well you made your bed I guess.

>it was capitalism that allowed capital to be poured into investments allowing industrialization to take place and create more money.
Yes, this happened as well.
But this capital and mass production lowered prices for consumers and massively increased their living standards leading them to not have to work as hard and as much.
Common sense.
It's IMPOSSIBLE for anything else to have raised their living standards.

You honestly believe the mass production of food, clothing, shelter, medicine, etc etc had absolutely nothing to do with living standards for people?
Are you fucking deluded?

>it was labor activists
No it wasn't.
They did nothing and they could not have done anything.
You're a brainwashed religious fundie.

>to point that europeans came here to work in our factories is also a fallacy
How?
Living standards were much better in USA because USA had more factories and capitalism.

>but the entirety of the industrialized worlds working class was pretty fucking downtrodden my dude.
LOL NO SHIT
The entire fucking world was downtrodden. Industrialization doesn't take a fucking day, we had to develop this technology and mass produce everything so living standards could rise.

>the ability to mass produce meat in processing facilities didnt make americans have a better standard of living.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>it just allowed capitalists to extract more value from labour at a lower cost, more efficiently
Who do you think was consuming all of these goods that were being mass produced?
You absolute fucking brainlet.
I mean how stupid do you have to be to not understand this?
Value isn't extracted from labour. These are abstractions that have nothing to do with the real world.

>body parts in the meat
Upton Sinclair was a fiction writer who never stepped foot in a meat plant.

>>7546660
US military industrial complex lacks a nice solid proxy war at the moment. Syria is nothing but ruble, north Korea is not an option because of nukes, Iran maybe an option but obongo made a deal with them before he left office. No one even heard of Yemen or some African shitholes in perpetual war.
And on top of that EUSSR wants to make its own military and reduce spending towards Nato.

>>7551986
>Value isn't extracted from labour.
then what is it because most economists say wealth comes from labor

>>7550298
Come on public school bros, surely the government did SOMETHING bad in the last couple hundred years and numerous repealed/abolished laws, which you learned about in school right?

>>7551846
>Technology and the amound that can be improved upin does, yes.
Technology can change obviously.
But the laws of economics do not change.
You're wrong.

>The % price rise will not be 1:1 to the % increase in wages
Why are you talking about these things in monetary value when the fact that the supply of capital/consumer goods remains the same.
>if we use fancy math we can magic more consumer goods into existence
Where are they going to come from?

>Therefore purchasing power increases.
Purchasing power can only increase by producing more goods, no other possible way.
unless you want shortages or something

>long-term no.
Long-term absolutely.
Assuming it's a free market with no central bank, once workers have totally taken over the means of production and get to keep the after-reinvestment profits of their firms there will be no inflation, the one time inflation already happened.
Now workers have the exact same(or probably less) living standards as before. They would be consuming the exact same amount of consumer goods as they did when the capitalists ran things.
This was my main point.

If you say
>well no because workers are going to slowly release their after re-investment profits for personal use very slowly then it has the same effect on the economy as a central bank slowly increasing the money supply, basically same shit we've had for decades already.
I don't see how this would be beneficial

>I'm proposing just another alternative
and it doesn't work because socialism is nonsensical

>>7546864 #

>theres 0 signs you retarded child

>been constantly being told by financial experts for the last 4 years that a major correction is imminent

... that's the point. People have been saying a correction (I guess you meant crash, cause 10% drops don't matter much) is imminent for 4 years yet the stock market has gone up enough that even if it this drop continued we wouldn't be back to the level it was 4 years ago.

Seeing this corporate shill defend capitalist greed and his insistence that socialism did nothing beneficial when something as simple as a history book disproves him is really taxing.

Welp, I'm out of this thread, the delusional radicals are here. Btw socialism is a good thing, but too much socialism is communism and communism is absolutely disgusting. Never trust a commie.
Also, I took those economic tests in the internet and it says I'm liberal, or a keynesian supporter

>>7551878
>The Industrial Revolution was literally financed by corporations taking out loans in order to finance production.

Yes, I know a lot of them took out loans.
It was also in a deflationary environment.
Without this deflationary environment the industrial revolution would be almost impossible.

You central bank supporting brainlet.

>>7551901
>Everytime something bad happens in the economy its always because MUH GUBMIT PRINTING MONEYS
Nobody ever said this you drooling retard.
The financial crises WAS however caused by the government printing trillions and pumping the housing money.
It's hilarious you think this would have no effect on the market.
Brainlet.

>>7551881
Almost all of this is the fault of central banks.

>>7552081
>then what is it because most economists say wealth comes from labor
That's called the labour theory of value.

Only marxists believe in it, it's bullshit.
Almost all modern economists now believe in marginalism or subjective theory of value.

>>7552188
>something as simple as a history book disproves him is really taxing.
I thought socialists have no problem with taxes? :^)

By the way, I don't suppose those history books you're referring to are used by government-funded, private schools are they? Would they happen to mention the starvation under Stalin and Mao, or the economic failure of resource-rich nations like Venezuela?

>>7552188
Holy shit you couldn't even refute any of the arguments I've made ITT and are just getting asspained about it.
>Seeing this corporate shill defend capitalist greed
How am I a corporate shill?
I want to stop the government creating trillions of dollars and giving it to bankers and corporations.
You want to continue this practice.
>and his insistence that socialism did nothing beneficial
It didn't.
Show me where it did something beneficial.
>when something as simple as a history book disproves him is really taxing.
All of the history books show socialism to be a colossal failure.
They have failed virtually EVERYWHERE.
>Btw socialism is a good thing
No, it destroys economic production, enslaves people and reduces living standards.
>Also, I took those economic tests in the internet and it says I'm liberal, or a keynesian supporter
Keynesians are literally corporate fascists lol

>>7552145
Oh fuck I think I finally got what you were trying to argue all along

JUST

If you're too lazy to read on the solow model this is a quick introduction, which adresses your point on the state of the US in the 19th then 20th century
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQR7rO-I96A

>>7552290
Public schools are such a fucking joke, holy shit.

The biggest reason people support big government is these brainwashing centers.

>everyone knows the economy is teetering on a knife's edge
>literally nobody in governemtn is doing anything about it

Why?

>>7547225
calm down, Michael Burry

>>7552314
>Oh fuck I think I finally got what you were trying to argue all along
Which was what?

>watch this entire youtube video in the middle of a heated thread
No lol.
If you're unable to actually argue your side's position then just stop posting.

>>7550587
>Reducing government intervention in the economy REDUCES corporate power

So every corporation spends billions of dollars on lobbying for deregulation because they want to reduce their own corporate power. Great logic.

>>7552321
B-but muh coal miners. Muh poor, voluntarily-employed coal miners.

>>7552367
Maybe they've stopped trying to fight it and are instead bracing for impact.

>>7552189
or was because bankster knew the government had to step in to stop a complete meltdown of the system thus leaving them free to reap all the benefit with no consequences?

>>7552226
>Almost all modern economists now believe in marginalism or subjective theory of value.
what the fuq

>>7552367
>Why?
because that's how democracy works

The system of democracy is doing what it was supposed to do.
This is the inevitable outcome.

>>7552385
>So every corporation spends billions of dollars on lobbying for deregulation
They also spend billions of dollars lobbying for MORE corporate power.

Also it could be that SOME of the regulations they are lobbying to repeal are actually bad regulations that hurt both the corporation and society as a whole.

>>7552385
>So every corporation spends billions of dollars on lobbying for deregulation
Net neutrality was a deregulation bill?

>>7552374
I was overestimating the effect that simple fiscal stimulus would have on the economy. It ultimately depends on how much stimulus affects the output of prime material extractors, which could be pretty shoddy.

>durr video long me no watch

ok fag

>>7552420
>They also spend billions of dollars lobbying for MORE corporate power.
And the way they do that is through DEREGULATION. dumb fuck.

>
Also it could be that SOME of the regulations they are lobbying to repeal are actually bad regulations that hurt both the corporation and society as a whole.
Yes goy, corporations are working for the public good! Help us reduce regulation further!

>>7552399
>or was because bankster knew the government had to step in to stop a complete meltdown of the system
AHAHAHAHAHA

You ACTUALLY swallowed the cum of the narrative the corporate establishment WANTED you to believe.
Do you ever stop to think why your position on this is the overwhelming dominant position that people in government, media, banking etc also accept? Could it be that you are brainwashed by them?

What really happened is the federal reserve gave bankers and corporations trillions of dollars to create a massive bubble with and when the bubble popped the federal reserve gave them even MORE money to "save the system" when they should have gone bankrupt.

The fact you think this is "saving" the system shows what a gullible corporate cum drinker you are.

>>7552466
>I was overestimating the effect that simple fiscal stimulus would have on the economy. It ultimately depends on how much stimulus affects the output of prime material extractors, which could be pretty shoddy.
Who gives a shit?
I was simply stating how this system would result in the same or lower living standards for workers and you have yet to refute me.

>ok fag
>I can't argue my point so watch this video instead
lol

>>7552480
>And the way they do that is through DEREGULATION. dumb fuck.
LOL NO you stupid kid
They do this by lobbying for more regulations and controls.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

You truly are brainwashed.

Yes goy, corporations are working for the public good! Help us reduce regulation further!
I LOVE how you couldn't even refute my point.
Lol this is hilarious, lets watch you squirm even further.

>>7550408
>It would cause inflation due to increased velocity of money in the consumer department but normally that money would be used to increase the productivity of consumer goods, meaning that more capital would pursue consumer goods
Isn't this literally just trickle-down?

>>7552520
Why should I tell you something that can already be said to you in a non-rival resource such as a video?

With inefficient thinking like this no wonder you're peddling shitcoins instead of making bank

>>7552556
>a few enterpreneurs save more money
>spend a minuscule amount on consumer goods, spend more on improving profits through means that are not necessarily productive
>a horde of people get money
>each has his consumer needs
>producers should be stimulated into making more consumer goods assuming that the classical chain of processers-paying-for-prime-materials-to-maintain-supply is observed

>>7552495
>The biggest corporate cum drinker in the thread accuses others of corporate cum drinking

Really makes you think.

>>7552561
>Why should I tell you something that can already be said to you in a non-rival resource such as a video?
I don't even know what the video was about or what your point is?
How does this advance your argument whatsoever.
We were talking about worker owned firms and if they would benefit workers or not.

I refuted you and you couldn't come back with anything.
That video doesn't even address anything we're talking about.

>With inefficient thinking like this no wonder you're peddling shitcoins instead of making bank
I have more money than you poorfag.

>>7552594
>spend more on improving profits
by increasing capital production thus lowing the price of consumer goods and raising living standards for workers.
Do you understand now?

>through means that are not necessarily productive
They can only do this with a central bank.
A free market would solve this problem.

>>producers should be stimulated into making more consumer goods
But the free market does exactly that.

>>7552594
So what you're saying is the system works where trickle-down does not so long as the masses are in poverty?

>>7552605
>Rural red state white nigger making less than 100K a year thinks he's rich

>>7552634
Get cancer, corporate tool.

>>7552598
and after ALL of what I wrote, this little corporate cum drinking faggot couldn't refute it and simply goes
>NO U!!!!

>>7552648
>>Rural red state white nigger
Where are you getting this from?
I'm not even american.

Is "hurrr u redneck fox NEWWWSSS!!!111" the only rebuttal LOW IQ, small brained american liberals can come up with?

>>7552652
Get thrown out of a helicopter you assdamaged corporate tool.

>>7552634
wtf... you're right... I love lolbertarianism now...

It's just so fucking hilarious that people who literally support a violent government supported banking cartel call others corporatists.

REEEEEEAAAALLLLYYYYY MAKES YOU THINK DONIT?

>>7552814
>wtf... you're right... I love lolbertarianism now...
thanks fren
:^)

>>7552853
Will take a bit to digest these redpills, that was a good conversation

>tfw everyone stops replying to you in <5 posts

>>7552888
if you are actually serious then read articles on mises.org and watch mises institute youtube videos on american history

>>7552926
Well you probably haven't turned me into a total lib but you've proposed a very interesting alternative to me, gave a far better impression than the average shitposter who complains that >da gubmint is fascist n shit

Definitely better understand and sympathize with the libertarian sentiment.

>>7552495
>yeah the govt shuldn't intervene only because people would start rioting after they get evicted and half the country's businesses are bankrupting
you lolbertarian should have no say in any financial matter ever

>>7552967
Well that's good.

If you're interested start here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wer4FiA79mo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VA9VZeox3g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vw6uF2LdZw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNrHFZDIAl8
https://mises.org/blog/how-artificial-boom-1914-1929-caused-great-depression
https://mises.org/library/great-depression

>>7553121
>>7552967
ALSO THIS is quite important
https://mises.org/library/austrian-business-cycle-theory-brief-explanation

>>7553092
You realize his premise is that it's only prolonging the invevitable while making the outcome even more catastrophic than a few riots, right? Hell, we already had some riots last year over literally nothing.

>>7553092
You're STILL posting?
LOL

>>yeah the govt shuldn't intervene only because people would start rioting after they get evicted and half the country's businesses are bankrupting
The boom and bust only happened because the government printed money to pump the housing/stock market which caused a massive malinvestment. Letting this government created artificial economy collapse would be the healthiest thing because the economy would quickly restructure itself on solid ground. This is far far better than postponing the inevitable and making it much worse later on.

>you lolbertarian should have no say in any financial matter ever
You're right, corporatists and jews should completely dominate the economy and we should all be their slaves.

Fiat vs no fiat bracing for the impact. Opinions? I'm mostly in fiat right now >>7550241

>tfw secretly want the economy to crash so everyone will buy BTC

>>7553192
i mean 1848 style riots when city burns and politicians hang

>>7553220
>Letting this government created artificial economy collapse would be the healthiest thing because the economy would quickly restructure itself on solid ground.
guess how i know you're born in at least a middle-high income family, you spoiled faggot

yeah we should totally let happens 10 more detroits becuase a bunch of austrian autists said it would overall be a good thing 100 years ago.
and then you have the nerve to call commie detached from reality

Okay so a recession is coming. Potentially a depression. Something serious is gonna happen and we don't have a precedent what it's gonna be. Is it gonna be even more inflation? Or a crash like we've never seen before? Or both? This thread is probably gonna run out before we can figure this shit out

made a thread >>7553414

>>7553329
>guess how i know you're born in at least a middle-high income family, you spoiled faggot
If I was born poor as fuck I would ALSO want this solution you dumb faggot.
I would want the economy to restructure itself.
If the economy is in recession for 4 fucking months I don't care. I'll get by.

>yeah we should totally let happens 10 more detroits
Why would that happen?
After the economy rebounds living standards would rapidly rise, much higher than they are today.

>becuase a bunch of austrian autists said it would overall be a good thing 100 years ago.
LOL We're still saying this today and it's been proven correct.
Look at what ICELAND did. Their economy quickly rebounded after they let the economy collapse.

>and then you have the nerve to call commie detached from reality
Communists are absolutely insane.