/biz/ - Business & Finance

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page

P.S. Mining is a waste of electricity and Bitcoin itself is one of the worst performing assets of the year. Don't bother with it.

>>560636
This.
Nothing to see here. Move along.

>>560636
if its that terrible then why does everyone use it?

>>560647
Barely anyone actually uses it. Most people who buy it either trade it (i.e. sell soon after) or just hold it because they're speculating that prices will go up (which it only does if enough people start speculating). A lot of the people who hold it for the long term are doing it for philosophical / political reasons rather than economic ones.

>>560651
the reason i want to know about it is because i'm interested in darknet markets and (completely hypothetically of course) want to know how they are used in those markets.

>>560654
Because of the decentralization an relative anonymity bitcoin offers it is probably the best and most widespread currency that merchants on the darknet accept.

There are dozens of exchanges on the darknet offering a wide verity of illegal and goods and services.

cryptogator.net

>>560636
>Bitcoin itself is one of the worst performing assets of the year
and one of the best performing in the past 3

>tfw bought 2,5 more coins at $340 the other day
>tfw bitcoin is climbing back to $380 even though gubmint auction
>tfw 1200 black friday merchants

>>560807
Not really. There have been a ton of startups that have started from 0 and had a significant marketcap after a few years. Most successful tech startups have an incredible return for angel investors. The only difference with Bitcoin is that essentially they used the public to crowdfund. The problem with that is that it caused a really horrible bubble that burst last year.

>>560835
>Bitcoin is that essentially they used the public to crowdfund

???

crowdfund what?

>>560807
That would be relevant if OP had a time machine.
>>561008
He's trying to say that anyone can buy bitcoins, whereas relatively few people can buy shares of a startup.

>>561012
>anyone can buy bitcoins

and this is bad?

>>561013
Kind of, yes.

>>561014
everyone can own dollars, does that make it bad?

>>561026
Apples and oranges.

>>561026
Dollars form a centralized currency system with a controlled exchange rate. Individual holders of money can't affect that rate, unlike Bitcoin.

>>561041
So your point is you don't trust the free market.

Might I esquire as to why?

Do you also inherently distrust gold as individual holders can effect the exchange rate?

Or any other fixed supply commodity?

>>561041

>controlled exchange rate

You what m8. The dollar hasn't been on a fixed exchange rate since 1971.

>>561046
I never said anything about the free market. I was explaining how dollars differ from Bitcoin, stocks, and commodities.

>>561047
Who said anything about fixed? I just meant it was controlled by the IMF and not actual USD holders.

>>561054
>Individual holders of money can't affect that rate, unlike Bitcoin.

You were expanding as to why

>anyone can buy bitcoins

is bad.

>>561055
I never implied bad, just volatile since individual holders of Bitcoin can affect the exchange rate.

>>561041
Major world currencies float. In theory an individual could affect the exchange rates, but in practice the market is so large as to make any one individual irrelevant.
>>561046
Nice strawman.
>>561054
IMF doesn't control rates (it used to when it was first formed). Rates come from aggregate supply and demand from individuals and institutions.

What do you think about Circle for someone who wants to buy Bitcoin for the first time?

Pros and cons? Better alternatives?

>>560818
I bought 0.45 at an ATM in Amsterdam last week, I already have 70, but I felt that the dip to 360 was a great time to buy.

>>560636
>>560645
Why even come into this thread? Bitcoin is happening, deal with it.

>>560672
>probably
No, I can tell you with certainty, if you want to buy things on the darknet, the coin of the realm is Bitcoin.

>>561065
>why even come into this thread
Because this isn't r/bitcoin and OP asked.
>Bitcoin is happening
Bitcoin is dying, deal with it. It didn't reach critical mass fast enough. There might well be various services in the future that utilize the technology behind it, but Bitcoin will not survive.

>>561008
Bitcoin isn't like a normal startup in which the marketcap is comprised of shareholders who invest or are given stock in a company. Bitcoins themselves specifically act as stock. The problem with using the public to crowdfund is that you have mostly amateur investors that have absolutely no idea what the real worth of a Bitcoin is. We just don't have enough metrics to gauge how successful Bitcoin is in its intended use as an anonymous form of payment and how much the price is driven by pure speculation. What we are seeing is that Bitcoin marketcap has receded around 70% from the end of last year, which leads to the point that a lot of the trading was due to speculation alone.

>>561058
This. The dollar isn't really superior to Bitcoin, just more widely used therefore less volatile. It's a catch 22 because in order for Bitcoin to be used more it needs to be more stable but in order for it to be more stable it needs to be used more.

>>561075
It's happening friend.

>>561075
Also why do you only quote exactly 1 year?

Like, do you just ignore the several times exactly this has happened in the past?

>>561079
"Transactions" encompasses a lot of things, one of them being daytrading. It doesn't necessarily mean that the protocol is being used as a payment rail. As long as the majority of trades are from speculative investors, the volatility is still going to be there.

>>561081
The market cap difference matters.

>>561081
It's not impossible for Bitcoin to bubble again but as long as you have huge price swings it just reinforces the fact that Bitcoin is mostly speculated on and not successful as the payment network it was designed to be.

>>561083
>As long as the majority of trades are from speculative investors

Those speculative investors day trade on exchanges.

Transactions which are off the block chain and wouldn't even appear on the graph I posted.

>>561084

Market cap has changed for years?

It depreciated about 90%+ in 2011, yet that hardly killed it did it?

>>561087
>not successful as the payment network it was designed to be.

Then why is the number of trades still -increasing-?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102207994

>>561089
>off the block chain
I thought the block chain recorded all transactions? Is there some type of shadow blockchain I am unaware of?

>>561092
>Last year, the number surged to 600 merchants, and sales hit the equivalent of $6 million
Considering the total volume was around $30 million in the last 24 hours I would say $6 million in sales per year is tiny. Again, it reinforces the fact that Bitcoin isn't being spent, it is being traded.

>>561089
Yes, but you also look at the absolute numbers. Losing 90% of $30/BTC is not the same as losing 90% of $1000/BTC. It takes a much larger injection of capital to recover from the latter (especially since the number of BTC in existence has increased substantially).

>>561101
>Is there some type of shadow blockchain I am unaware of?

Exchanges tend to store their bitcoins in pools, and any clients bitcoins are stored on their own ledgers. Similar with how their dollar/fiat accounts are ran.

Not all of course, but certainly most.

>Considering the total volume was around $30 million in the last 24 hours I would say $6 million in sales per year is tiny

Just goes to show the kind of growth we've seen in a year eh!

>>561107
Proportionally it's not.

And if it does recover then what?

Will you eat your own hat and stop the fear mongering that it's doomed?

Or will you palm it off as another crazy bubble?

>>561115
>proportionally it's not
You either missed or ignored the point.
>and if it does recover
Unless something has changed with the fundamentals, I'd both eat my hat and palm it off as another crazy bubble.

If Bitcoin keeps falling, will you eat your own hat and stop the shilling?

>>561109
Even if that was the case (which you have no backing for) the transactions to and from exchanges are recorded when sellers send Bitcoin to them and buyers take Bitcoin away. I see no reason to believe that means that the majority of the transaction on the blockchain are people spending Bitcoin, in fact, quite the contrary due to how much merchants have recorded in Bitcoin sales.

>Just goes to show the kind of growth we've seen in a year eh!
The year isn't over yet so there is no final number. Even if Bitcoin sales quadrupled this year, it would still be below the transaction volume that Bitcoin had for ONE DAY.

>>561089
Honestly, its not worth talking about Bitcoin on /biz/. Every thread some faggots show up who know nothing, refuse to learn anything, and derail the thread into an argument about the merits of the system.

>>561125
I apologize if we derailed your thread with facts and reason.

>>561127
>facts and reason
I think this exemplifies the problem. You actually think you know what you are talking about.

>>561128
That must be it. Maybe we should go back to talking about rich Bitcoin is going to make us all.

>>561125
>>561128
Feel free to return to forums where the only people allowed are Bitcoin supporters. Clearly anyone who doesn't support it must not understand it by definition.

>>561120

>If Bitcoin keeps falling, will you eat your own hat and stop the shilling?

Depends on the time scale.

If we see 3~ years with year after year new lows, then yes I'll admit bitcoin has failed as an investment, but as a means of exchange no price fall would matter.

Bitcoin could only totally fail if there is a total breakdown in the code or something as devastating.

WOW. This thread has given me too many face palms. Thanks for rising my self esteem, you stupid fucking numbnuts...

>>561131
>>561130
The sad part of this is you think you all know why bitcoin is destined to failure, based on your own opinions, when it is under this very premise you presume every proponent of bitcoin is behind it.

I don't for a second think you don't fully understand bitcoin, the facts you have posted perfectly refute my biased opinions that more people then ever are trading >>561079

>>561137
>the facts you have posted perfectly refute my biased opinions that more people then ever are trading
>more people than* ever are daytrading*
FTFY

>>561144
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7232/are-all-trades-stored-in-block-chain

Considering day traders volume isn't even -registered- on the block chain.

Besides,

>more people than* ever are daytrading*

Is bearish and shows bitcoin is doomed to failure..

How?

>>561149
I explained this for you here >>561124
The number of purchases made with Bitcoin make up for a tiny percent of the overall market which means people are not using Bitcoin for its intended purpose, which is a payment system. It goes back to my original point that Bitcoin marketcap is propped up by daytraders and speculative investors.

>Is bearish and shows bitcoin is doomed to failure..
The only way that Bitcoin is going to decrease volatility is if it can shed its speculative nature. If it does bubble again it just proves it can't do this and it failed what it was originally designed for.

>>561130
Its not about getting rich, its about saving people from the current financial system.
>>561131
Do you have a skype or something? I can have a conversation about Bitcoin, but I'm not going to type everything out, I use an on-screen keyboard.

>>561149
Mate, its a pointless battle.
>>561125

>>561157
It is. You guys still don't have an answer why Bitcoin sales through merchants only make up for less than 1% of total volume. I do though. It means Bitcoin failed as a payments platform. It is always going to be a volatile mess as long as people trade it just for future returns.

>>561153
>If it does bubble again it just proves it can't do this and it failed what it was originally designed for.

It's literally a no win situation with you doombringers.

>price goes down

Look the sky is falling!

>price goes up

Look at how unstable it is!

>people are not using Bitcoin for its intended purpose
http://lsvp.com/2013/08/15/about-half-a-percent-of-bitcoin-transactions-are-to-buy-drugs/
http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2013/10/02/silk-road-drug-market-handled-1-2-billion-of-transactions-in-2-5-years-before-fbi-seizure/

https://twitter.com/maraoz/status/535066347060080640
>Today, BitPay processes $1M per day.

How much does it have to increase for you to admit it's increasing?

>>561159
>Bitcoin sales through merchants only make up for less than 1% of total volume.
Prove it faggot.

>>561159
>You guys still don't have an answer why Bitcoin sales through merchants only make up for less than 1% of total volume.

Source?

And how much is golds % volume done through merchants?

Also, you're trying to suggest that being a payment platform is bitcoins only advantage.

Again, it just goes to show how little you understand the technology.

>>561164
>>561159
Okay, I did a little math.

If bitpay (one company) exchanges $1 million per day.
http://www.coindesk.com/bitpay-now-processing-1-million-bitcoin-payments-every-day/

And around 80'000 bitcoins are transacted per day.
https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions

With $380 per bitcoin
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/bitfinex/btcusd

That takes us to $30'400'000 per day.

So bitpay processes around 3% of daily transactions.

So I found one company that exchanges 3x your figure that you pulled out your ass

I think I should have put up some trigger warnings, I might have scared him off with all my opinions.

>>561161
>>561164
>http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list
$190M in Bitcoin volume in the last 24 hours through exchanges

In contrast the biggest Bitcoin payment service only does $1m a day. The competitors are considerably less.
>http://www.bitcoinx.com/bitpay-claims-it-is-now-processing-1-million-in-bitcoin-payments-daily/


>Also, you're trying to suggest that being a payment platform is bitcoins only advantage
It was the major purpose, or that is what Bitcoin proponents say. Well... that and buying drugs.

>>561169
see
>>561169
The total spend through merchants MAY be a tiny bit over %1 if it is at all. That is horrible.

>>560636
>Mining is a waste of electricity
True dat.
>Bitcoin itself is one of the worst performing assets of the year
Double true.
>Don't bother with it.
Disagree, but obviously approach with caution.

>>561186
>$190M
Sorry I did a rough calculation and was a little to conservative. The real number is closer $250M. That would mean that the amount spent would have to reach $2.5M just to be 1%. The numbers don't support that.

>>561196
>>561186
You're quoting figures in the -last 24 hours-.

An average 24 hour period is closer to a 10th+ of your figure.

Have a look through here to see what I mean
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/btcchina/btccny

>>561202
Doesn't matter. I used the 6 month metric and it comes out to be about the same, when accounting for a higher Bitcoin price 6 months ago. Either way you slice it, Bitcoin sales make up for around 1% or less of total volume traded. Even if it was 10% that would still mean the majority of the Bitcoin market is pure speculation.

>http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=6m

>>561210
>would still mean the majority of the Bitcoin market is pure speculation.

Tell that to the gold bugs.

Tell that to the stock markets.

I need to remember speculation only means nothing when it's bitcoin.

>>560624
>tfw DOGE went from 54 to 75
could have made 40% in a week ;_;

>>561071
>Bitcoin will not survive
It'll live on, buddy.
Maybe not in your world, but what else will people use for darknet markets? I for one give zero fucks about its value dropping because I never hold onto my BTC.

the funny thing is that people aren't seeing it: this is the *best* moment to buy BTC, and probably also some shitcoin. why? well, its price will go up, obviously (although it will fall when the feds sell the SR ones). how much? no idea

is there a way to short bitcoin?
is there an etf or something?

>>561155
I'm not interested in having a one on one conversation with a random stranger about Bitcoin, no.
>>561217
Gold is mostly pure speculation as well. Equities are much less so (they have actual earnings).
>>561263
>what else will people use for darknet markets
There are any number of altcoins that serve that purpose better.
>>562205
>is there a way to short bitcoin?
Yes
>is there an ETF or something
No, there's one going through approval, but if you actually read the prospectus it's totally absurd.

>>561263
bitcoin is complete shit compared to literally other coin

Its almost like bitcoin was coded by some college kid on the weekends after he was done with his homework.

oh wait

it was

>>561251
>implying the doge markets have enough liquidity for anyone to sell/buy more than $100.

>>562221
so how can I try to short it?
is there a stock?
I would like to do this please

>>562567
Winklevoss eft in the works.

Short bitcoin @ bitfinex