/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>500946
Lots of loaded questions and presumptions. Believe what you want to. Some people just don't give a fuck.

>>500946
I won't tell you how to live your life, don't tell me how to live mine.

>>500956
>>500959

What is this nonsense?

>>500946
>growing exponentially
whatever you say, kiddo

Anyway:
>1st question
kind of yes; dumb luck also plays a huge factor in both people knowing how to be wise with their money and being in a position to be able to be wise with their money (if a person has only $50 or so left after all essential expenses are covered, no savings or investment plan is going to help them much)

>2nd question
there has never been a point in american history where most of the american population was good at managing their finances (that very likely holds true for most of the rest of the world). it's not a matter of just now people don't know how to manage their money and therefore the "welfare state" is growing "exponentially", as your question implies, it's a matter of "most people can't into finance because math & strong personal discipline is hard" and governments have started realizing over the past century-or-so that it's probably best for everybody if the government provides some kind of direct or indirect (for example, price controlling of food) to everyone who needs the help (i.e. most people)

>>500978
*direct or indirect financial assistance

Everyone decides on their own course in life. His decision (and it is a decision, make no mistake) is to be a degenerate who doesn't save for the future. He'll likely be penniless if/when once he gets his inheritance, and then he'll piss away everything his family has worked for on drugs.

Now, to address your questions:

>Is the art and knowledge of wise investing/saving and frugal spending based largely on a person's upbringing and what they are taught by their peers/elders?

I would say so, yes. Society at large (advertisements, media, etc etc) is telling you to consume beyond your means via credit. You either come to this realization by yourself because you don't want to get burned, or you're taught this by your parents by their examples.

>Is part of the reason why the welfare state is growing so exponentially because of the fact that many individuals struggle with the concept of wise spending and saving?

Given the opportunity, people will go with the easiest route in life most of the time. Without something driving us to utilize our talents, we're all worthless welfare cases.

>>500978

>kind of yes; dumb luck also plays a huge factor in both people knowing how to be wise with their money and being in a position to be able to be wise with their money (if a person has only $50 or so left after all essential expenses are covered, no savings or investment plan is going to help them much)

Luck doesn't come into it. You're born, you have skills, you utilize those skills with the opportunities that arise. If you're good at what you do, you profit. If you're not, you sink and lose money.

I would disagree with you. I could take $50 right now and make it into $100 next week, just by buying something simple, giving it TLC and selling it on. Arbitrage.

>there has never been a point in american history where most of the american population was good at managing their finances (that very likely holds true for most of the rest of the world).

IIRC, Americans were net savers in the late 19th and early 20th century, much like the Chinese are now. There is a reason why they became the industrial powerhouse that they were/are.

>it's not a matter of just now people don't know how to manage their money and therefore the "welfare state" is growing "exponentially", as your question implies, it's a matter of "most people can't into finance because math & strong personal discipline is hard" and governments have started realizing over the past century-or-so that it's probably best for everybody if the government provides some kind of direct or indirect (for example, price controlling of food) to everyone who needs the help (i.e. most people)

The economic prospects of a population reflect upon their morals, skills, resources and intelligence.

Price controls have been a failure in every instance they have been implemented. Food isn't rationed or given price controls because of this reality.

>>500946
you probably have a pretty fucking miserable life dude, both of you are obviously going nowhere with yourselves but at least that guy is partying and enjoying his life instead of just working and posting on 4chan

>>500946

What grocery store are you fucking saving that much money?

Also, your parents charge you room and board when you cover your own expenses?

>>500997
Nice assumption, dipshit.

>>500998

Yea they're kind of dicks, but it's better than having to pay $9000 for residence at my school

if he's comfortable and satisfied, who cares?
his parents?

>>501221
>>500946
KEK, OP get the fuck out of there. If your asshole parents are making you pay room and board and you're even covering your own expenses why don't you just get room mates and move out?

If you're going to be paying your own expenses you might as well the privileges and freedom that comes with it. Shack up with some chill dude for $400-500 a month. No reason to be paying to have no privacy, bitchy parents on your sack and other bullshit.

Well, I spent most my life in education and was forced out of college because of money issues I won't get into.

I actually have a very similar situation to you, I can barely hold a job so I just earn and save money whenever I can. I try to lie about how much money I have because my Mom always wants me to pay her money. My problem is that i'm 22 and really want to fucking move out, my house is maddening and I live in a small town and all I want to do is move to a major city, which is basically impossible because I can't make any money or find any job experience because I live so far out in the country (the closest city to me has a one story mall and nothing else, and it's an hour away) I only have about $400 saved up and I want to move to a city with $800/mo rent so I feel you.
I feel like 400 a month is a bit much for rent unless you live in NYC, I wouldnt wanna pay my parents rent because this house is a shit hole and theres no opprotunity or money here.

>>502639
>I feel like 400 a month is a bit much for rent unless you live in NYC

Wow you really are in buttfuck nowhere

>>502639
>I only have about $400 saved up

God I always cringe so hard when people say they have under ~$2000 saved up...

How do you people live knowing that if you lose your job or have to take a while off work or have spontaneous extra expenses you won't able to pay rent?

>>502656
Well I live with my parents but i've been in and out of employment because I was going to college full time. I had roughly 1100 saved up before that, but my parents took most of it and I can't find a new job.
>>502650
I thought $400 dollars a lot to pay just to live with your parents while you pay for all your own shit

>>502659
Here's my advice for you >>501295

if you're paying for all your own shit, you can find a bachelor apartment/flat/studio apartment to rent for around $400-500 or you can get room mates and $400 will be more than enough. might as well have the luxuries if you're paying for it on your own.

>>502656

Even when I was working during university I would consider $10k as effectively $0 and I would never allow my savings to drop below that point. You never know when life circumstances might bight you in the arse.

>>502704
Exactly dude, I'm a neet and don't plan on moving out for few years but even when I have a job or income I try to not spend it at all, or spend as least as possible, just feels incredibly uncomfortable to know that if I got kicked out of the house for example I'd be homeless because i splurged all my money in my time of "great economic times"

>What does /biz/ think of this? I know it may seem very rhetorical but I would like someone else's opinion on this matter.

M'lady *tips fedora*

I think it's silly that you care how he spends his own money.

I think it's pedantic that you're imposing your subjective view on what the "proper" way to finance one's life is, on some faggot teenager who means nothing to you.

>>500946
benjamin franklin said:

"one vice will raise two children"

so this guy has two vices and they put him in the negs, sounds about right

why do you car how he handles his finances? are you trying to suck his dick?

>>502794
Because it shows he's a bad potential mate. They'd have difficulty living together if he spends his money on frivolous things

>>500946

Look how tickled you are that you're paying your parents rent and wiping your own bottom.

>look mom, I'm paying for my own haircut now!

Jesus Christ.

And look how much satisfaction you derive from comparing yourself to a fucking grocery clerk when you yourself are nothing but a goddamn grocery clerk.

You work at a grocery fucking store.

Part time.

Look how far your head is already up your own ass. Can you imagine what you're going to be like with a REAL job AND having your own place?

It would really suck to be your 'friend', or to have to work with you, or associate with you in any way.

u know it really doesn't matter how much you have in your bank you're a fucking poorfag, you know i'm like you except i don't brag about it, I'm PROUD yes even though i hardly have any money but really until you make a few hundred thousand out of the 8600 it's nothing. people make that money in miliseconds. isn't that why you're on a business board?

>>502814
>until you make a few hundred thousand out of the 8600 it's nothing

This, so much. OP actually thinks he is some kind of higher class than the burnout grocery clerk he works alongside because he has a whopping 8k set aside.

8k.

He also thinks paying 400 a month to mommy and daddy is equivalent to being a big boy and really 'earning his keep' when living on your own actually costs at least twice that minimum in the cheapest areas - and no self-respecting person brags about being in a good financial spot while living with their parents.

My guess is OP is underage.

>>502819
>My guess is OP is underage.

Or at the very least, 18-19 and very infatuated with himself for landing his first job.

>>502819
>>502820
>be 19

gee how'd you deduct that ya genius!

>>500946
His parents are clearly enabling his lifestyle, so he either knows they'll never cut him off, he doesn't care if they cut him off, or he's too stupid to know how shitty it'll be if they cut him off.

His lack of savings is a bit stupid, but I see nothing wrong with taking full advantage of one's well off parents.

>>502894
This. As a poorfag surrounded by rich white kids, I've learned to shut my mouth until my saving and spending habits actually turn into something worth bragging about, instead of a shitty 8k savings.

I make friends, and hop on their lifestyles, using them while they use their parents. They might be of use later, even if they have shit tier consumption habits. Enjoy your financial independence as a lonely retail manager, OP

>>500946
>Is the art and knowledge of wise investing/saving and frugal spending based largely on a person's upbringing and what they are taught by their peers/elders?

I think there are two factors at play here. The first is financial role models. My parents made a lot of money, but managed it very poorly. In and out, wait for the next payday. I'm certain they spent 20% of their total income in overdraft fees and interest. Ludicrous. From them I learned, through negative feedback, what not to do with a checking account. They taught me zero about managing credit and saving.

That brings me to my second point, understanding the power of delayed gratification. When I got a job (age 15, still in school) I was perpetually broke. I spent money as soon as I got it so they wouldn't take it. It took me 10 years to understand that was a path to financial ruin. Thanks Mom & Dad.

>>503087
>Is part of the reason why the welfare state is growing so exponentially because of the fact that many individuals struggle with the concept of wise spending and saving?

No. The welfare state is growing because:
A. Inflation is decreasing the value of money faster than increasing wages.
B. Safety net programs make "Not work and live free" a realistic possibility.
C. The tiering of safety net programs significantly decrease the utility of dollars earned in low wage jobs that are the start of the path out of poverty.
D. Industries that have traditionally provided large numbers of learn-on-the-job skills, i.e. manufacturing and assembly, have automated and outsourced to countries with dramatically lower labor costs.

Moving to your original question:
When you live a not-broke life surrounded by broke people, you lose the ability to understand the way they think. It will boggles your mind to see someone buy a car from a tote-the-note lot at a grossly inflated price instead of saving and buying an inexpensive car. You will know that they can afford either the payment or gas but not both. You will want to tell them this. Don't. They don't want to hear it, and will doubly hate you when you are right. At some point you just stop trying to explain, save your oxygen, and live your own life.

It gets worse. as you get older your friends and family will notice that you are not broke. They will start coming to you when they are in trouble. They will make heartfelt pleas for you to help them just this one time. This is hard.

I've set a lifetime maximum save-your-ass limit of $4,000 per family member. When they come, I help them. I won't loan them money, I give it to them. When they hit the cap, I can't help anymore. I just can't. My sister-in-law won't talk to me because I won't help her pay for a divorce attorney. I already saved her house from foreclosure twice but that's forgotten. Now I'm the asshole who won't help her.

Fuck broke people.

>>503090
>mfw all the woman in my family are helpless and always bum money off of me. My sister got pissed when dad wouldn't pay her car payment so she came to me. Shes owed me money for over a year now. My aunt has a gambling addiction and borrows way more than she needs for college and blows it. My mom has never been out of debt in her life and declared bankruptcy more than once. My grandmas credit is fucked over from trying to help all of her stupid children. My other aunt has a 300k house with a kid and has a gross income of only 30k a year. Most of the men in my family are pretty well off though and financially stable.

>>503118
>helpless and always bum money off of me
I'll see your bankrupt mom and raise you a getting-out-of-prison brother-in-law.

Paid for 6 months in a halfway house, gave him a truck, set up with food stamps, helped him find a job, covered expenses till his first paycheck, helped him open a checking account, taught him how to balance it. He's out 2 years telling us everything is fine and then the cops find him living in the truck, passed out with a needle in his arm. Arrested/Parole Violated for drugs and paraphernalia.

He's going to be in jail for 24 months minimum, but gets pissed when I ask for a power of attorney so I can sell the truck. (Want it off my driveway.) I put the money from selling it into his account at the prison and he asks "Is that all?"

>Fuck.

He's got about $200 left before he hits the cap. I wish they'd keep him in.

>>503146

>Brother-in-law

You're a better person than I am, mate.I'm not even sure I would've done that much for someone blood related.

>>503146
hey man, not to say what you did isnt incredibly generous and your frustration is fully understandable, but getting money and support from a relative probably isnt going to affect whatever it was making the guy do drugs in the first place, he is still just as aimless and miserable and still has nothing but drugs to fill the void.

im just saying, being a junkie and fucking up because you are addicted to drugs and literally cannot stop taking them is a completely different issue from just being completely financially irresponsible and blowing all the money you ever get on shopping or bullshit.

>>502810
NEET detected. You jelly of his phat savings account and current work history?


Yeah.


You mad.

>>503208
>being a junkie and fucking up
I made the assumption that his drug addiction would have subsided in his 14 years of incarceration. He was in NA/AA too. Had the 12 month coin on the dashboard. Blame my naivety.

>>500946
>family are welfare scrounges with six fucking horses and three kids (myself being the eldest)
>literally noone in my household can into saving for shit.
>Decide I don't want to be dependent on a welfare check, get a job, slowly working my way up (promotion due next week).
>Have three thousand saved up after a year (working for minimum wage atm)
>Pay for board (75 a week), my own phone bill, own hair cut, own food, etc plus stuff for the family
>Parents moan that I wont lend them money for a new car
>despite I'm 20 and, being honest, making shit money, and theyre 40.

I think some people are just fucking lazy and have the "lol who cares we're gonna die anyway" whilst others pay for their laziness.

>>503228
>Blame my naivety.
yeah, dude, your naivete is the only thing to blame here. other than your brother in law and whoever gave him drugs in the first place.

never trust a junkie. hopefully you at least learned your lesson.

>>503241
I'm always confused as to why someone in your position wouldn't just fucking leave?

Like, why dude? You can't seriously tell me that being under constant financial stress is worth hanging around a family that will never learn and never get better and always drag you down.

>be me be 27
>live at home with mom and dad
>make 25k yr working at chill jobs
>70k nest egg fiddna invest (why im here)
>1k in bank
>18k in car
>2k in yu gi oh cards (foil cardz)(at least)
I spend like 300 a week on partying

life is the shit. dont agree with my life style, ill banish you to the shadow realm bruh

>>503267
Some people just can't leave their family behind no matter how awful, abusive or how much they're dragging them down.

>>503267
Because theyre my family. I'm not a popular guy, never had many friends, only two girlfriends...my family is all I've got. And theyre not bad people - we just have different ethics (I'm in favour of the argument of you have to work for what you want and they like the easy life). I kmow theyre gonna be a financial guilt trip on me until either myself or they die, but its hard turning your back on family.

>>503267
sounds like hes poor as fuck and dependent on living in his parents house

>>503279
18K in car and 2K in worthless cards, you don't know the first thing about investing. Sell the car and cards, get a beater, invest the rest. Quite buying shit that drops 40% of value the second you use/open it.

My dad always said, clothes, cars, and electronics are not where you want your money. He is dead on.

>>503279
bro you got mad swag I feel you

>grocery store part time
lolz

>>500946
Where you working there for 5 years?
Howd you manage that on a part time pay? Your savings alone is a years pay on your schedule.

>>501295
>>502671
Because for $400 he probably lives in a 3 or 4 BR house with a yard, reasonably nice furniture, cable internet and utilities included. His parents are also probably decently neat/clean and do other stuff for him that he hasn't mentioned here.

To equate his living conditions with a $400 studio or splitting a 1 or 2 BR with some other 20 year old who is going to be a complete slob is just stupid. Plus he'll have a bunch of 2nd or 3rd hand furniture that has stains, dings, marks, and whatever in it. He's not going to do much better than $400/mo for rent and his living conditions will be significantly worse.

>>500946
The reality, OP, is that $8600 is not a lot of money once you move out of your parents house. You can expect that your monthly 'nut' (the sum of all of your living expenses) will be around $800-1000. That means you have about 8 months of living expenses saved up. Not too shabby, but nothing to brag about. This, of course, is when you are living in relatively Spartan conditions as a single bachelor. Once you want to move up in the world and own a property or have children, $8600 is 1-2 months pay and just 3-4 months of living expenses.

But then you need to save up 20% for your mortgage downpayment which on national average is around $60k, another $20k to paint/carpet/furnish the place and buy things like kitchen utensils and towels, another $10k set aside to do emergency repairs in case your water pipe burst in the basement or some shit.

So get hot.

>>502639
>>502650

TFW my NYC studio is $3,350/month

Example and upbringing OR curiosity. I was raised homeless, $42 per week income, all my friends were niggers, my mother disparaged college as a waste and never saved a dime.

I didn't like living like that and decided to find out where/who has money and why.

>>500946
most people lack the willpower to be conservative with their money.

I wanna know how you are 19 and have saved 9k from part time work and paying all your own expenses

>>504053

Idk when OP started working, but I started at 13 in summers. I see no reason why that isn't doable.

>>504058
how old are you now and how much have you saved? how much had you saved at 19?

>>502639

Ukrainefag detected. $400/month isn't SHIT for rent. In any real city, $500 was typical.. 20 years ago. $700 for a halfway decent 1-2 bed is on the cheap side in most typical cities.

That said, I'm paying just $350/month, utilities included for my studio. Making ~$50,000/year. Compared to living in a real city, it'd be like making $60k in Chicago or maybe $70k in NYC.

>>504060
I'm 21 now with about $300k saved. Launched my own business at 17 online and have barely spent anything. Nobody knows but me and my accountant.

>>504072
what kind of business?

>>504096
Buying/selling/producing digital currencies

>>504823
bullshit like every phony entrepreneur on the internet

>>Tells me he has $80 in his bank account

While knowing full well that he's going to inherit a fortune when his parents die.

>>504829
Doesn't bother you if people don't believe. I was just trying to answer his question.

Runescape and WoW used to be extremely juicy markets.

I think upbringing has something to do with it, but it's still complicated. A person with poor parents who spent all their money quick might think that's the way to live, or they might become an extreme saver if they disagree with their parents' methods.

>>503279

Huh. I have some old Yu-Gi-Oh cards that I'm looking to unload, you wanna buy?

>>502707

>neet
>valid opinion on anything related to money

lol please go fuck a budgie

>>503090
Jesus Christ how depressing the truth is...