/biz/ - Business & Finance

However, in reverse practice, the whales (remember, whales=market) that bought BCH low now see that they can 3x profit from selling BCH at it’s peak (and since they are whales, the peak is reached the moment they start selling), and dump all BCH and buy BTC, that is now at a very low price, thus, gaining even more profit, since they shorted BTC when it was at an all time high.

So, for practical effects, the whales that are pumping and dumping win every time they make a move, and this is fueled because they spread a false fear that only Bitcoin Core or Bitcoin Cash can exist as the true Bitcoin and “Satoshi’s Vision” (another propaganda scare tactic, Satoshi stepped down precisely because he didn’t want to dictate what he meant or didn’t meant for the crypto), when, in reality, it is in capitalistic interests that both coins coexist, at the same time that there is this impending doom that the flippening (or it’s complete dismissal) could happen at any moment, fucking up the weak hands and sending even more money (which means even more pnd power) in the hands of the whales.

BASED ON THIS PREMISE AND KNOWLEDGE, (capslocking because you may not agree and truly believe that the flippening is a thing) the only way that you, poor BTC or BCH holder can profit from this is in two ways:

1- The safe way: if you truly believe that crypto is the future, and since you are buying crypto, I like to think you do (instead of daytrading a currency you think is just a fad, which is also perfectly valid), the safest way to ride these pump and dump events is to HODL like a motherfucker, regardless of you HODLing BTC or BCH, because if crypto is the future, then prices of cryptocurrency will rise, regardless of it being BTC or BCH (they may rise in different ways though, but you will make a profit regardless, just not as much, hence the safe way).

2- The risky way: you are a clever motherfucker that thinks you can time the market and whenever these pump and dump events happen, you think you can ride the wave early, get out of the dominant coin as soon as the whales start dumping and get on the pump wagon as soon as they start pumping the other, profit, and use your mind powers to sell the coin JUST before the whales start dumping again, to profit by buying the coin you first dumped cheap. In this way, you profit a lot, just like the whales if you time it perfectly ( you can run less risky and get out the ship in the middle of the dump, thus cutting your profit, but hey, profit is profit). However, this is the risky way because if you get crippled by FUD and ride the wave too late, you will lose every time, think of the poor bastards that sold BTC at $6000 and bought BCH at $2000, those people were caught in a bull trap.
If you REALLY want to get conspiracy (and fuck yeah you want to), you can speculate that the Flippening will indeed happen, but in a way that won’t kill Bitcoin Core completely, just enough that their roles are reversed and there can be always be a fear of a Reflippening just around the corner, ensuing that the battle rages on, just with the tables turned (remember how in 1984 they were always at battle with Eurasia and in the end of the movie they were always allies with Eurasia and were always at war with Oceania).

I conclude by saying that capitalism always wins, and it does not care about ideology, or who is technologically superior (if it were that, there are altcoins far superior, Litecoin would have taken over in Bitcoin pre-historic times), it only cares about money.

Since I referenced 1984, here is a cool clip that can help you understand my point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n4EDKUB9uo

Bump, hoping for opinions and thoughts.

>>4530992
I sympathise with you attempting to wrap your mind around this from a market perspective, but you have to walk that back and just focus on the technology. And doing that you come to this realisation; this war will actually *kill* the BTC ledger. It will be permanently frozen and impossible to transact in.

If you think that assets recorded therein may still have a market value given that and you have some kind of reasonable explanation for why, I'd love to hear it.

Short of that the market price of BTC is as irrelevant as the market price of the core of the sun for all the accessibility it has.

>>4531022
My point is precisely that technology does not matter, you don't have to understand it to make money of it. I am looking at this purely from a capitalistic perspective and, in an historical sense, it's the one that always prevails, even if it seems riddled with incoherence, because it only cares about sustained profit.

It's a llittle like how the USA pushes for world peace at the same time that is the biggest gun seller to wars around the world.

Agree with OP. They will keep doing this because they are making a killing.

>>4531098
Exactly, I also don't think there is much conscious manipulation, some of the whales do not coordinate (but some do, like Jihan and Roger), but there is an instinctive perception that they are making a lot of money of this BTC X BCH battle.

Traders love volatility, and I could see this scenario from the OP coming true. Particularly as Wall Street sinks its teeth into the crypto world.

>>4531094
And what I'm telling you very clearly is that you are wrong. It doesn't matter if boeing invests in an antigravity UFO that runs on magical rainbow dust, it's not going to work and anyone that invests in it is going to lose all their money.

And for the exact same reason, BTC is about to die.

No miners, no blocks, no blocks, no transactions, no transactions, no product.

It's really that simple. Please try to wrap your head around it before you get butchered or lead others to the same.

>>4531164
I agree, this "battle" is just an arrangement between parts. IMHO these idiots should find a better way to pump Bitcoin without all this stupid drama, it's exhausting.

>>4531207
Well, there is quite a difference, because your example was an impossible technology, whereas BTC's technology although arguably inferior to BCH's, it is not useless and it does work, just not in an ideal manner.

As I also said, if this were purely a technological issue, Litecoin would have taken over in 2010, since it's 4x as efficient as BTC.
Since that didn't happen, it shows that the market does not care that much for it.

Now, I am not saying that technology is not relevant and that the market won't follow a breakthrough, but I do believe that BCH is not that much of a technological improvement over BTC to justify it, not much more than Litecoin was anyway.

Only crypto that I see being vastly different, technologically, is IOTA, there may be more, but this is the one I know.

>>4531210
It's meant to be exhausting, so you are more easily manipulated.

I'm really conspiracy today lol

>>4531207
Miners aren't going stop mining it so long as it has value. They follow the users, they don't set the foundation. There's no unified mining front to leave Bitcoin.

>>4531285
No. Look. Christ this is the problem with this space. People who don't understand what they've actually bought and think it's more of the same dumb political bullshit that has existed since time immemorial.

Blocks are created by the contribution of proof of work from miners, which burn energy to perform math in order to validate transaction. Hulking great scads thereof. This has been the status quo for the entire existence of the project, but this changes today.

It seems almost guaranteed that miners are rebelling against the core chain and switching their resources over to the cash chain. This means that no more blocks will be created because they are not mining them anymore.

Think of it like two swimming pools in deep space that is kept warm only by extremely powerful energy burned in enormous heaters, and the people in each pool are in a bidding war for energy to run their heaters, and one of the pools is about to completely and irreversibly outbid the other pool. That's exactly what is about to happen to the BTC ledger, like that pool it will simply freeze over and it will be impossible to perform transactions on.

This is why I'm telling you very clearly; forget brands and politics and stupid games between people and just focus on the technology.

I dont know. You might as well see it as the market just not knowing how to value something that either has no inherent value, or has a value that has not yet clearly been identified, because of the novelty of the asset class, Additionally I don't know whether there has ever been the case where an asset was completely copied into an identical twin and it's not completely clear which one's the original. Add to this that the value is most likely based on the trust of other people in that asset.


When you look at it that way you do not need manipulation, because you get enough volatility from uncertainty.

>>4531343
They follow profitability. They proved on November 13 that 80% of them will abandon the core chain when that metric switches to BCH. It's not a question of "maybe this can happen" it's a statement of "this has already happened once and now we're going to see a permanent and aggravated version of it".

>>4530916

The BCH PnDs spread out over days... it's not difficult to time it. Probably won't get the tippy top of the pump and very bottom of the dump, but getting 50% gainz has not been challenging.

>>4531345
But then I don't understand why Litecoin would not have taken over BTC back in the beginning.

>>4531383
I honestly do not try to time the market, I got fucked every time.

I just put all my holdings in ETH and gonna buy the dip at a profit after this cryptodick contest is done for this weekend.

>>4531424
This situation has never happened before, the technical comparison of litecoin and bitcoin has nothing to do with it.

I could give you a massive laundry list of why SHA256 proof of work coins are better than scrypt proof of work coins, but it would be missing the point of this discussion.

>>4531424
Network effect.
BTC has mindshare, sha256 hashing has mindshare.
LTC doesn't. It doesn't share hashing algo with BTC so it didn't steal miners. BCH does share BTC hash algo, and it's more adaptable to hashrate fluctuations so if this war continues I don't think it looks good for BTC without adopting the same new DAA, which I can't ever see happening.

>>4531442
If you aren't making $ of these fluctuations what are you doing.

>>4531362
>80%
Not even close to what happened. And even with those made up numbers, enough of them will keep knocking out BTC blocks to reach another difficulty adjustment, meaning the only way a mining cartel could exploit it is if they all switch back and start processing transactions again every time the adjustment comes up.

Your fantasy will never come to pass. Miners don't have the power to end Bitcoin without destroying their own investment completely. They also don't have any incentive to, and almost certainly are not conspiring like you pretend because for them it hardly matters which coin they're mining, they're in it for profit not ideology. BCC investors are the ones ideologically attached, and now they're projecting their own concerns onto a group that doesn't care about them at all.

>>4531463
>If you aren't making $ of these fluctuations what are you doing.

For someone to make money, someone has to lose it. I'm not comfortable to try timing the market (got fucked one time), so I like the HODL strategy. That also ensures I don't maniacally look at charts all day.

>>4531474
>Not even close to what happened

Yes it is, look at the graph for November 13 https://fork.lol/pow/hashrate

> And even with those made up numbers, enough of them will keep knocking out BTC blocks to reach another difficulty adjustment

Nonsense. Even if the ideological mining levels displayed in the graph above could be maintained for the entire difficulty adjustment period of 2016 blocks that would imply a 70 difficulty retargeting on a 20% degraded throughput for an already enormously handicapped blockchain and all the fees that would entail.

People realising what's happening would necessarily accelerate the effect as even the most idiotic people sold and got the hell out of dodge, making it even harder to maintain ideological mining in the face of the relentless onslaught.

> Your fantasy will never come to pass. Miners don't have the power to end Bitcoin without destroying their own investment completely.

Exactly the opposite from reality, they're making a clear statement that they view the core chain against their interests and are forking off, and taking their hash power with them. This is what is actually happening. Accept reality or be destroyed by it.

>>4530891
I agree OP. It's also really frustrating because it means they can cause a btc/bch price war whenever they want which will take money out of alts. The distraction will serve to kill altcoin pumps and make dumps even more severe.

this has been a pretty nice profitable month for crypto in general. so many moon missions if you know what you're doing and are NEET enough to dedicate all day to it. i hope they keep this up desu

>>4531514
fair enough I guess
It's too late now, too high up to risk it imo
I got in early

>>4531615
BCH will probably go higher tomorrow, since difficulty will readjust.

Although I'm not emotionally attached to any coins, I would like BTC to win since it's the brands normies see as the face of crypto.

>>4531682
Normies are fucking idiots and need to learn that reality doesn't care what they think feel or see. If this is all just another illusion to inspire political confidence amongst a sea of halfwit sheep it is a complete waste of time and we may as well go back to politically controlled central banking with infinitely malleable fiat currencies.

People will get sick of it. Bitcoin will lose relevance in the long term. Everything will be about ETH. There's too many people supporting and developing on ETH for it not to be the platform of choice. BTC is riddled with political/technical issues and they won't get resolved.