/biz/ - Business & Finance

nope

you do know you have to suck my cock every time you fucking annoy me with burger shit, right?

If you buy high and sell low, the IRS pays you.

Yes and I keep track of every trade meticulously because I am profitable and don't want to get royally fucked later on down the line.

>>4435940
don't bully the burgers anon, we need them

>>4435928
>he thinks they are going to tax my digibytes

>went to visit my grandfather at the retirement home today
>he's been an accountant his whole life, still does people's taxes in his mid-80's
>knows about my cryptocurrency and memecoin investing, does his own research and asks me about things like NEO and Monero often
>he hands me an IRS spreadsheet for reporting capital gains and losses today
>tells me I need to report on every trade and pay short term capital gains as taxes when I haven't even cashed out yet

FUCK me

>>4436132
thats why I just buy and hold rather than making 10 trades a day for years

Crypto is un taxed in the us nice try jew

>>4436151
I've only made like 20 trades this year total though

Yes Mr. Shekelstein, I'm a good goy, you'll get your cut I promise.

>>4436132
He's right though. Was it Form 8949? Any time you trade any property for anything you need to record the cost basis and fair market value at the time of trade.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8949.pdf

No you dont

>>4435928
sure bud. just give me US citizenship first and then we'll talk.

>>4436151
.... how the fuck is the IRS gonna know either way? i know it's sometimes fun to pretend to be retarded, but c'mon...

>>4436156
>>4436246
You guys are going to get fucked hard by the IRS a couple years down the road.

>>4436270
If you have any serious money in this you've had to provide sites with some of your personal information to make transfers, they will in turn inform the IRS of your activities.

>>4436270
they'll know if you make it, if you don't it doesn't fucking matter

>>4435928
Like
Kind
Exchange

>>4436274
Ill be comfy in Tokyo by then tough luck kid

>>4436270
Any of the following:

-sees your large cash withdraws

-puts pressure on exchanges to release documents

-sees that new lambo and million dollar house you just bought

>>4436297
Doesn't apply. At least by default. You'd have to report every single trade on this two page form and get it approved to defer gains as like-kind.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8824.pdf

Have not heard of one person successfully doing it and many accountants say it's inappropriate for crypto.

>>4436297
They disallowed like kind exchange treatment for precious metals, why would you think they'd allow it for cryptos? Also even if you want to do like kind exchange you're still required to report them that year or you forfeit your right to use that tax treatment for those trades in the future.

You pay at the end of the year. When you trade you trade haven't made any gains. When you file your taxes you have to pay the capital gains tax for that year. It's not hard.

>>4436240
Yeah, it is.

But I mean, do I seriously have to report my Bitbean trades? None of it was purchased with USD, it was all exchanged with other crypto.

>>4436369
>But I mean, do I seriously have to report my Bitbean trades?
Yes.

>>4436369
You have a list of transaction history. Just print it out at the end of the year and look at your gains.

>>4436382
What if Bittrex and Binance have none of my personal info?

I'm a ghost. The only thing that's tied to me is Coinbase.

>>4435928
As long as, at any time, I don't have more than 200k in the sum of all trades I don't have to pay taxes for the trades. I then only have to pay taxes for the winnings at the end of the year. (Switzerland, but depends on the canton/state)

>>4436407
this
All coinbase has is me pushing out coins to wallets

nobody believe this thread. it's not correct. they're just trying to FUD crypto in general with tax shit.

How do you work in transfer costs, such as the gas fee on an eth transfer? Do you get to reduce that from your taxes in any way?

What if someone would sell a bitocin to bitpanda and let them transfer the fist to neteller or Skrill and this someone uses a neteller or Skrill credit card to buy stuff or get money?

>>4436434
This

Unless you live in the Netherlands

>>4436369
Unfortunately it doesn't matter. In their guidance they say general tax laws that apply to property apply to crypto. You have to figure out the "fairmarket value" by converting everything to the USD value at the time of the trade by using Bitbean/BTC to BTC/USD. That's why you can't get out of paying taxes in fiat by only bartering.

>>4436407
You'll probably be fine if you never cash out more bitcoins than you provably bought on coinbase. If you cash out more than you'll have an inconsistancy in your records and might get audited. Also keep in mind the IRS is working very hard to get access to coinbase records and working with a company called ChainAlysis to figure out where coins were sent on the blockchain. You're taking the bet that in the next 10 years they'll never figure out you sent anything to a Bittrex or Binance address because that's the statue of limitations for taxes.

>>4436407
You will probably get away with it, particularly if you end up cashing out after moving to another country. Just be aware that you its still breaking the law so its up to you if you want to take that risk.

>>4436492
guys he's right. don't be retarded.

>>4436492
>Unfortunately it doesn't matter. In their guidance they say general tax laws that apply to property apply to crypto. You have to figure out the "fairmarket value" by converting everything to the USD value at the time of the trade by using Bitbean/BTC to BTC/USD. That's why you can't get out of paying taxes in fiat by only bartering.


What does this mean? I moved BTC to buy the shitcoin REQ and I lost money, then I unloaded my bags to get NEO and I made some of it back. I'm down 500 USD from my initial transfer to Binance. What am I supposed to pay taxes on?

>>4436562
when you made money on NEO

I made 100 grand from ETH on Coinbase. Do I just print out a tax sheet from coinbase then hand it to the accountant at the local h&rblock then I'm good to go? They only charged like $30 to do my taxes last year.

>>4435928
>mfw pajeets pays less taxes in crypto than burgers

>>4436562
You won't have to pay taxes if you have net loss in USD value of your portfolio. use https://bitcoin.tax to figure it out.

>>4436562
>What does this mean? I moved BTC to buy the shitcoin REQ and I lost money, then I unloaded my bags to get NEO and I made some of it back. I'm down 500 USD from my initial transfer to Binance. What am I supposed to pay taxes on?
Nothing, you can claim a $500 loss to offset any other capital gains you may have had throughout the year.
>>4436604
Yeah, though if you haven't actually sold the ETH(this includes for other crypto) then its not a realized gain and you don't have to claim it.

>>4436492
>Also keep in mind the IRS is working very hard to get access to coinbase records and working with a company called ChainAlysis to figure out where coins were sent on the blockchain.
>what is a Bitcoin tumbler

>>4436456
Bump for answer on this. I don't know how to enter in marketplace-to-marketplace transfer fees when it comes to taxes. If I don't put anything, it looks like I'm hiding funds. Is it consider a 'trade' since it goes from one wallet to another?

>>4436601
thats fuckin gay i'm not paying shit until i make money

>>4436628
in fact burgers can claim this against income up to 3k

Fuck paying taxes

Good luck catching me

I buy thru coinbase and send to binance and other exchanges and they don't know shit

Even if you're caught, you just pay what you owe with a penalty. They would rather settle than hunt you down or throw you in jail

I'll take my chances and hope the dollar or gov itself collapses and crypto takes over

>>4436601
I just bought NEO. I lost more on REQ. I'm sure that at the end of the year you see what you have made on your trades in total and pay taxes on that. Everytime NEO goes up I'm not going to pay an additional tax.

Are you retarded?

>>4436614
helps pay for public toilets

>>4436645
>>4436655

I was just messing with you

>>4436654
i hope this is a fucking larp because theyre about to go through all coinbase anon

>>4436645
Sorry citizen, but this is the land of the free. We have a 20% capital tax on crypto losses. You lost 500 usd, now you need to pay 100 usd.

>>4436604
Though one thing to bear in mind is that H&R Block will be charging you more than $30 this year. They charge per form they need to file and yours will be more complicated than a simple 1040EZ this year(I'm assuming that's what it was last year because that's roughly what their pricing is).

>>4436683
hahahaa

Everyone would lose their shit. That makes me pissed just thinking about it

>>4436670
still what you said seems to be the way they want to do things according to the 30 minutes when i gave a shit and looked it up online. they gotta figure this shit out in a simple way before i pay them anything

what about other countries? I'm from a third world shithole, so I don't use coinbase. I'm free from the shackles of the jewvernment?

>>4435928
What? Isn't it just value of USD cash into the exchange vs USD cash once you cash out? If I put 250 on and cash out 500 then I pay tax on the $250 profit, right? Why do I need to track each trade? Does saving my Binance history log count as good enough?

Reminder that the United States and Eritrea are the only countries in the world where citizens are fully taxed no matter where they are or where they live in the world.

America is a fucking joke. Land of the free my ass.

>>4436718
yes binance history is good enough, you need to record them for if they audit you

>>4436718
oh and the usd thing is a fucking meme, pajeets have been spreading this to try and fuck over westerners

>>4435928
>Have to

Funny choice of words.

If I cash out less than $10,000 from coinbase it doesn't get reported to the IRS right?

>>4436718
No. As this guy's accountant grandfather says, you report every trade on From 8949.
>>4436132

If you put that you bought 1 bitcoin and then later cashed out 2 bitcoins you'll be insta-audited because you'll have an inconsistency on your records. You'd have to put every step of how that 1 bitcoin turned into two. If you report taxes, you cannot do it half-assed or show any inconsistancies, ever, or tyrone will have your ass in jail for tax fraud.

EVERY
SINGLE
TRADE
IS
TAXED.

Open your ass, burger-anons. And welcome in the sweaty hot cock of the IRS.

>>4436750
fuck this shit new zealand here i come. they'll have to send in a fuckin platoon to pry it from my cold dead hands

>>4436762
you will be fine, nobody gives a shit about 10k, your parents dont care, asian sluts dont care, the taxman doesnt fucking care

>>4436640

is that all it takes?

>>4435928
>land of the free

>>4436762
If the banks even suspect you're cashing out less than $10,000 to avoid reporting requirements they have to file a suspicious activity report to the IRS. Then they can seize all your assets or throw your ass in jail with Tyrone for "structuring". It's sort of a "thought crime". There have been some ridiculous cases of people being prosecuted for structuring.

>>4436782
i think they offer a one off 4 year tax free period for certain circumstances if you migrate, i havn't looked into it in detail but it could be an option for people who make it, it's a nice place too

>>4436810
yes, multiple withdrawals exceeding 10k are obviously not going to work

>cashed out 1 million in 2013.
>didnt pay tax
>nothing ever happened

dont believe the memes

>>4435928
no you don't trading Asset for Asset is not a taxable trade, trading Asset for Fiat is taxable. You don't pay taxes on Stocks until you move them into Fiat Same with Crypto you moron, but thanks for being so new - hope you enjoy those LINK Bags.

>>4436853
>trading Asset for Asset
This is called barter and yes barter is taxable.

>>4436643
You can include it as an investment fee which would increase your cost basis. Let's say that you bought $500 worth of NEO using bitcoin that you had transferred in. The transfer fee to transfer that BTC in was $10, instead of your basis being $500 it would be $510.

>>4436853
This makes total sense to me.

When stocks are "traded," it's actually a fiat transaction taking place. When crypto is traded, there's no fiat involved, hence it's asset for asset.

How does margin trading play into this? What if you made or lost a ton on margin trading?

>>4436853
Where are you getting that from? Did you even read the IRS tax guidance?

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf
>Does a taxpayer have gain or loss upon an exchange of virtual currency for other property?
>Yes. If the fair market value of property received in exchange for virtual currency exceeds the taxpayer’s adjusted basis of the virtual currency, the taxpayer has taxable gain. The taxpayer has a loss if the fair market value of the property received is less than the adjusted basis of the virtual currency.

How does the fact that trading crypto for ANY OTHER PROPERTY results in a taxable gain or loss give you the impression that it's only for trading for fiat? Oh, and all cryptos are considered property, so an altcoin trade would be a property > property trade.

And the reason you don't pay taxes on stocks until you sell them for fiat is because there's no stock / stock pairs. If there were, it would be the same thing.

>>4436895
this. its not the gubmints money ITS THE BLOCKCHAINS MONEY AND THE BLOCKCHAIN DOESNT NEED TAXES TO RUN ITSELF SO FUCK YOU IRS

>>4436900
There is no regulation or rules on any of this shit. No one knows anything.

I'm just going to pay taxes when I cash out. If Uncle Sam wants to buttfuck me then so be it, prison would be better than this wageslave prison anyway

>>4436831
Are you American?

>>4436831
2013 were different times. People have been jailed for FAR less. Crypto is under immense scrutiny now that it is mainstream.

To anyone reading his post thinking they can get away with it too...be careful. I suggest paying the man what you owe.

>>4436912
>Did you even read the IRS tax guidance?
Of course they haven't. Couple of dumbasses convinced that they know what's going on while not even having done the slightest bit of research.

>>4436810
>There have been some ridiculous cases of people being prosecuted for structuring.

I've heard of low cashflow restaurants having this issue and having all of their assets frozen.

The thing I'm hoping for is APMEX or some other bullion seller that will start accepting Bitcoin.

>>4436992
JM Bullion accepts bitcoin

>>4436992
This could work if you just want to hide gold bars under your bed

>>4436912
>>4436982
I've been trading stocks for years, you don't pay taxes on Paper profit until you turn it into Fiat... sometimes I really do wonder about Americans
https://www.fool.com/knowledge-center/how-much-tax-do-i-have-to-pay-on-stocks-if-i-sell.aspx

>>4436132
Do what I do.
Store the bitcoins internationally and trade them internationally.

If no money or goods enters US jurisdiction, they have no claim.

>>4435928
Sage.

And no, my CPA friend confirmed fir me that crypto is an asset and you onky are taxed when you sell an asset for $$$, nit when you trade an asset for another asset. It's a huge legal loophole that Congress has not closed. You can literally trade all your crypto for gold and its no tax is due until you sell the gold for currency.

you only pay taxes when you convert back to FIAT right now

>>4435928
nope

>>4437034
exactly, I went over this extensively with my tax lawyer. I had only 4 BTC I bought for $100 each, I sold a few weeks back at $7700 - (2 went to over 10oz of gold with JM Bullion) which is not taxable until I sell the gold.
2 went back into Crypto trading. I don't owe a Dime on taxes until I pull out over $400 (My initial investment)

>>4437027

Britbong here, willing to store any fatclaps bitcoin in secure wallets here in the UK for no fee.

Just transfer and I'll handle the rest.

>>4436912

So if you went all in on some alt coin, it mooned and you made bookoo bucks, and you had to trade it to BTC in order to cash out you'd have to pay taxes twice??????

>>4436998
>JM Bullion accepts bitcoin

Fuck. This opens up a whole new realm of possibilities.

>>4437016
>This could work if you just want to hide gold bars under your bed

I know that was supposed to be a bit of a jab but yes that's actually more intelligent than storing fiat in the bank. You can freeze my bank account, you can't do shit about my big gun safe that no one knows about.

>>4437071
no, the gain would be realized on the trade to BTC

>>4437020
I've been doing audit assistance for years, to help people out of messes they've made. Barring a like kind exchange, which probably would be disallowed for crypto and even if its not you'd need a 8824 form for each one, any exchange of property is taxable. If you gave someone stock in exchange for a painting, that's still a taxable transaction by law.

crypto into USD is taxed, but they have no idea how to deal with alt-coins and have no guidelines on this matter yet

aka we're good

>>4437034
>You can literally trade all your crypto for gold and its no tax is due until you sell the gold for currency.
good to know

>>4437081
i c

>>4436779
hahaha
at first I was mad at all of this even though I'm not american, but fuck this is actually hilarious HAHAHAHA
daytraders, swingtraders, bot users, you're all going to jail because I don't think you will be able t fucking calculate 9989889988 trades done over the year swingtrading dogecoin for niggercoin'
holy shit I'm laughing
every single fucking thread, Land of the free, my God, what a madness

>>4437080
it wasn't entirely, if you literally want to just hoard gold bars and havn't left tracks then it's pretty feasible. but if you one day give up on the world ending and decide to go and buy a house with them you have a problem

>>4437020
You're such a brainlet. That's because the "paper profit" they're talking about is when they're just holding the stock. If you sell crypto for any property, another crypto, fiat, a house, a car, chickens, corn, anything at all, they consider that a realized gain that you have to calculate using the fair market value at the time of trade. If you buy a bitcoin at $1000 dollars each. Let's say that the value rises to $7000 each. You don't have to pay anything yet because you're still holding and it's "paper profit". BUT if you then trade for $7000 worth of ETH, that gain is now realized. You'd have to pay capital gains on the $6000 difference in value. I already proved that here:
>>4436912

>>4437034
What's your CPA's name so I can file a complaint to AICPA?

>>4437102
they know exactly how to deal with alt coins, you are literally a pajeet aren't you

>>4436689

I went back and amended my last 4 years to report my crypto, HR block charged me like $380 to amend four years, but I had already done the legwork of calculating my form 8949 for all my trades by using http://bitcoin.tax ... they might charge more if you just hand them transaction history.. because that part is a lot of fucking work

crypto to crypto is like for like exchange, sorry OP. you're retarded.

>>4437071
No you would only need to pay taxes on the total gain so you report the gain from converting alt to btc then the gain from converting btc to usd. I have no idea why this system is set up the way it is. All it does is make people waste time filling out paperwork and produces no additional revenue. There have probably been millions of man hours wasted because of this and absolutely no clear benefits.

Actual CPA here that deals with the It's two bit, forty thousand dollar a year accountants for our manufacturing facility.

They don't have the skill and/or manpower to sift thru thousands of crypto trades by some NEET that made 4,000 bucks.

If you made hundreds of thousands, you may want to hire a CPA, if you made 10 to 20 thousand they're not gonna give a shit as long as you give them something when you cash out to fiat.

The actual opportunity cost for them to engage in this massive undertaking when they already run lean is not beneficial. They care about S Corps that do 10 million annually, not the autist that made 6k this year.

Also - I doubt any of you have any experience working with IRS accountants. They're literally what you would expect of government workers. The DMV of finance. We treat them like shit.

>>4437188

Fucking auto correct.

It's = IRS

>>4435928
No? You're liable for the tax on a profitable trades but don't have to pay until you've balanced all trades.

>>4437188
this. unless you made 6 figures and cashed it all out into fiat, you have nothing to worry about.

>>4437188
this, people here give way too much respect

$ are taxed not majic pixies.

>get advice from tax preparer, not shitposters

should I escape to Japan or New Zealand when I make it?

>>4437034

So if I bought $500,000 worth of gold bars at JM bullion and never sold the gold for fiat, I wouldn't have to pay taxes until I did?

>>4437126
this is true, but it is stupid. If you convert bitcoin to Eth, how is that realizing your gain though? ETH is highly volatile and could tank to $200 in a week, who knows?

Say you buy DGB at with your BTC gains, pay your taxes, then DGB tanks 75%?
Turns out you didn't realize any gains after all.

If it turns out crypto becomes more stable that'd make more sense.

>>4437071
It depends. It's all about the COST BASIS of the coins you're selling.

>You buy 1 bitcion at $1000
>Cost basis of bitcoin is $1000
>Value rises to $7000
>You trade for $7000 worth of eth at $300 each.
>Cost basis of eth is $300
>You now owe capital gains on the $6000 difference. Let's say ($6000*.25)=1500
>If you cash out the eth at $300 you'll owe no additional capital gains because the fair market value - cost basis would be 0.
>If you cash out eth at $350 you'll owe capital gains on that additional increase in value.

>>4437188
>They care about S Corps that do 10 million annually, not the autist that made 6k this year.
Stop talking out of your ass, I've seen audits over less than $1k from an unreported 1099MISC.

>>4437249
Sell it and buy back if you want and start the year with a capital loss

>>4437117
>it wasn't entirely, if you literally want to just hoard gold bars and havn't left tracks then it's pretty feasible. but if you one day give up on the world ending and decide to go and buy a house with them you have a problem

This is true.

But there are sneaky ways around this to minimize getting raped by the IRS. TO my understanding the only big single chunk you need to account for is the down payment, as the subsequent payments can be accounted for as I have a normal job. I mean I could claim I sold a little crypto I mined or something to pay for the down payment and not arouse an audit or anything that could get my in trouble.

It seems like the key would be to not "cash out" in any big increments and just sell small amounts here and there to subsidize your regular expenses so your "legit" savings account is artificially boosted.

>>4435928
SEE USC 26 7701 (a) 26, I don't have to pay taxes on almost anything

>>4437276
no you haven't. literally kys for this FUD you're doing. leave us alone.

>>4437247
He's full of shit, no actual CPA would tell him something that inaccurate and if one did they should lose their license. The IRS website link that explicitly states that crypto to other property is taxable has been given multiple times.

>>4437312
yep, this is something even a NEET should be able to manage if they're properly prepared, unfortunately as we can see most of these goys will fuck up

>>4437327
Its not FUD, stop giving people awful advice that are going to cause them financial difficulty. Also stop trying to claim credentials you clearly don't possess.

>>4437117
What if you "found" some gold bars hidden in your backyard one day?

>>4437034
That is flat out wrong according to the IRS guidance. I copy pastad the relevant portion here:
>>4436912

>>4437249
It's all about the NET gain or loss at the end of the year. Like 1 second before January 1st. So if you have any losses you'll want to strategically realize the loss by selling in order to not pay more than you have to.

>>4437376
More about realizing your losses before the end of the year.

If you made a hypothetical $100,000 gain in ETH. Then you bought LINK and made a $100,000 loss toward the end of the tax year and you're still holding. YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THE LOSS, or else you'll be ABSOLUTELY FUCKED because your net capital gains on the year will still be $100,000 instead of 0. You'll be taxed a shit load of money you don't have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United_States#Strategic_losses

>Strategic losses[edit]
The ability to use capital losses to offset capital gains in the same year is discussed above. Toward the end of a tax year, some investors sell assets that are worth less than the investor paid for them to obtain this tax benefit.

>A wash sale, in which the investor sells an asset and buys it (or a similar asset) right back, cannot be treated as a loss at all, although there are other potential tax benefits as consolation.[50]

>In January, a new tax year begins; if stock prices increase, analysts may attribute the increase to an absence of such end-of-year selling and say there is a January effect. A Santa Claus rally is an increase in stock prices at the end of the year, perhaps in anticipation of a January effect.

All traded are theoretically like value.
Would you trade for less value?
No one else will either.
Thinking you got the better deal in a trade is not taxable.

>>4437258
ok let's say that makes sense, but isn't it at the end exactly the same as just counting the in/out balance? what do the irs cucks have to gain by making it so complicated?

>>4437469
Preventing you from claiming a longterm capital gains rate on shortterm capital gains.

>>4437469
They want to know how you turned $400 into $3,200 dollars

>>4437469
By making it harder for you to fraud and lets them look for any inconsistencies so they have an excuse to audit you.

And this:
>>4437518

If you made trades on bitcoins before 1 year of holding them it's a different tax rate.

If anything, /biz/ would love to report everything to the IRS. Realized losses are tax deductible, you know.

But sadly /biz/ is too ignorant to see this.

>>4437518
>>4437535
>>4437557
so just throw them a stack of sheets from excel and let the lazy fucks figure it all out
so you guys will all be selling your bags on the last day of the year just to buy back next day?
this is stupid, it puts you at risk, crypto is to volatile for that shit

>>4435928
The more i read about burger land the more i realise how stupid it is to live there. I mean, living in 3 world country is not significantly better, but at least i don't have to deal with all that shit when it comes to crypto

>>4437692
also 1btc for us is like 3-4 btc for burgers
/comfy/

>>4437688
>so you guys will all be selling your bags on the
No real reason to do this unless you have a substantial loss in one of your holding which thankfully isn't the case for me, even then like you said it'd be risky.

>>4435928
I'm a filthy casual, all I ever do is swap USD for BTC and vice versa on Gemini. But why should each trade be taxed when my "trade" is just shifting numbers around on a database on Gemini's servers? Gemini isn't actually buying and selling BTC on my behalf, it's all sitting idle in their primary wallets. The gains and losses are completely imaginary until the moment I cash out or withdraw anything from the exchange. I don't actually have the BTC that are supposedly connected to my name unless I actually withdraw them from Gemini.
How is anyone supposed to know what to do, this is bullshit

>>4437692
>>4437715
which country are you in?

>>4437688
They would love for you to do that. They'll give you the worst possible cost basis for everything, use exchange rates that result in you paying the most tax possible.

>>4437760
Exactly. People here are making it too convoluted. Gains aren't gains until you actually make fiat from it. Trading crypto for crypto is an imaginary gain.

>>4437760
>>4437813
>Why doesn't the law work the way I think it should
Because its not written that way.

>>4437776
eastern europe, I think our governments have bigger problems than some internet money, and will be happy as long as you pay something
also no tyrones running around so even prison would be comfier kek

>>4436317
Just pay the thirty percent short term, otherwise hold for a year and call it long term capital gains. So few people are paying taxes on it, that just saying that your shit was zero cost to you and paying 30 percent shows that you are acting in good faith because the laws aren't clear. Also if you're a poorfag, you can get away with like $10k per year tax-free, counting it as income instead.

But if you have enough money for it to be a problem, it's worth it to hire a professional. Everyone's situation is different, it's a good return on your investment to save even a few percent on the taxes

>>4436786
Try Monero

>>4437760
By that logic you shouldn't be taxed on money in your bank account either because the cash is just sitting in their vaults or it's just imaginary numbers in their computers.

>>4437813
It doesn't matter whether you think it's "imaginary" all that matters is that Tyrone's penis in your asshole won't be.

>>4437244
ḩ̶͈̳͓̿͋̋̏ͮ̐͋ͭo̵̵͔̥̺̖̱̩ͪ̾̉ͧw̮̥̳̣͋̈̌̂̿̓̽̑ ̛͙̜̩̯͉̣͇ͫ̏̋̽i͕ͪ̈͞s̈̈́͐ͮ͑͂͡ͅ ̙̪͚̮̞̈͒̍̊ͬ̂̓̿t͉͎̩̩̩̫̗ͤ͑̇̏ͬͅḥ̛͍̣͓̏̏̾̌i͚̱͉͓̘̣̥̮̋͟͠s̺̻̭͓̰͙̥̑͋͆ͮͫ͆̈́ͪͣ ̸̭̘͕̘̪͉́ṉ̷̭̟̥̱̦̩͎̭ͤ̆ö̸̖͚̖͈̞̓̄͌̋͂ͧͫ͜͡ͅt̟̳͖̰̟̭̹͂͛̍͟͡ ̻̘̐̏͜ṯ̸̼͇̪͔̗͔̟ͬ̇̌̎͆͟͞ḧ̨͖͔̗͚͉͇̺́̾̉ͧͩ̇̓e̦͓͚͓̖͓̮̥̫͒͊ͬ̾̀̚͜ ̴̷̶̟̜̌̓ͧͯͦͧO̷̴̙̘̩̬̻̣̘ͬ̓̈́͑̑͋͑N̘̓̐̉͋̔͞͠ͅḶ̖̖̫ͤ̆ͫ͝Y̞͙͖̖̪͈̓̏ͦ̕ ̪̀̔͊̍͟ą̮͉̺̰̺̂̏ͪ͘͡ṋ̫̝̆ͦ͂͂͐͌ͧ͆̃́s̶̹̳̪͔̞̣ͦͧ͜w̦͚͎̪̺̜͖ͣͣ͟e̯̟͇̺̞̹̓ͤ͛͡r̷̼̱̗̬͕͖̺̜̓ ̵̼͚͎̎̇̋̂ͣͭ͝͝t̡̹͙̹̔̎͋͒̾̂́͜o͕̤̱̮̰ͭ̈̒̃͛̉ͪ̑ ̫͚̭̱͇̱̰͌̿ͩͬ̎͒ͪ̋̓̀ͅĕ̠̫͖̪͚̜̊ͨ͢v͖̯̻̞̖͖͖̇̂͐ͤͯ͐ͤ̑ĕ̡̨̠̙̤̰̂͌ͪ̉ͩ͝r̷͉̗͋̆̊̆͛ͦͤͧ̀y̜ͫͪ͘͟b̭̱̗̹̤̯̞́̽̌͐͢͡o̹ͦ̊ͩd̝͖̺ͦ̊̉͊̎̇̎̾͠y̶̢̭̖̖̋̎̄̾ͩ́'̵̡̡̝͖͉͙̘͇͑ͩ͐ͩͯš̶̟̠̪̤̭ͣ ̯̜̗͔͈̺ͨ͒̐̽̎̽͜q̶̶̹̺̬̠͌̃̾̍͝ͅű̢̙̦͉̺̮̓ͅe̶͎̣͖̼̤͕̔ͬs̜̀ͪ̇͢t͇͓̙͍͍́ͨͅi̦̹͙̻̮͐͆̍ͯ͊͛͒͠o̗̼͇͎ͦ̽̄ͤ͟͞n̛̫͎̠̞̩ͪ̈́ͭ̿̐͌͊ͅs̺̘̝͉͍͒̍͒ͅ?͖͉͙̘ͮ̈́̐͐̿̀̀͜ ̶̨̺͕̟̼̣͉͊ͯ̎̾ͩ͒ͅ<͖͕̺̺̜̦̙̘͑̀ͫ̚3̙̬͌̐̃ͤͬ̃̔̇ ̢͈̭͇̠̇͂͑̂͗̀͆͌̚<̢̫̯ͮ̾3̳͕̱̱͉̜̣̹͆̍̔́ ̶̣̹̦̤̞̘̳̊̐̋͑͟͠<̷͚̙͈̺͌̒͂͌̾ͅ3̸̪̭̙̪͚̙̮̋̌͋́̾̾ͅ

>>4437894
I would, but when I do cash out eventually I'm going to pay my taxes on it so that I don't have to deal with any of this

>>4436040
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM

Mentions how retarded it is that since the IRS now taxes every fucking thing, you can't buy back something you just sold for the same price.

>>4437939
oh man, that video was one of the first Red Pills I have taken, good times

>>4436640
>>4437894

Well tumbling or buying Monero can't go back in time and erase the transactions you already did. Imagine you're an IRS agent looking at your account on coinbase.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-10/coinbase-likely-to-lose-bid-to-block-irs-probe-of-customer-gains

>Hmmm... looks like he bought some bitcoins earlier from coinbase this year and chainalysis indicates he sent them to an address associated with Bittrex. That's strange, anon didn't report any trades on this exchange this year. Let me go call up Bittrex and give them a summons to hand over Mr.anon's records. Oy Veyy, what's this? He didn't report any of THIS. And he bought monero at the end to try to throw me off his trail? That's it, your ass belongs to Tyrone.

They have 10 years to do this.

>>4437852
which country, I want to move there and keep my gains

>>4438156
well there is tax to be paid still, but the rules are simple at least, (outcome-investment)*tax rate, no BS

If you want to escape the eternal JEW try Denmark, I heard they have no tax on crypto, also look up the Netherlands or Estonia

>>4437907
In the USA you have income not wealth tax retard.

>>4438137
Beyond the fact the IRS isn't going to go through all of this for some college kid gambling with beer money, and assuming you're moving everything around so sloppily that they can trace everything you've done (like operating purely on exchanges and not moving shit directly between your private wallets) what's to stop you from saying that you lost your Monero key and lost everything?

Yes, and I do. I have 500k in non-crypto investments that I don't want seized by the IRS because I skirted taxes on virtual currency.

>>4438231
You missed the point.

I spent like an hour going through my MEW last night and I have like 1000's of trades. For $4k profit. How fucked am I?

>>4436132
ask him about 1031 for crypto.

>>4438231
Change it to "by that logic you can't be taxes on income deposited in a bank account" then.

>>4436492
So.... I can just pay someone to do this right? How much would it cost?

>>4438241

even if you did do that, how do you expect to pay for anything IRL? you might as well be broke cause you won't be able to buy anything without the IRS seeing it

>>4438375
Well we're all hoping our beer money will become lamboland money one day aren't we? If you don't stay on top of your records and file taxes while you have a small amount of money you'll never be able to cash it out if you become rich without doing some money laundering or tax frauding.

>>4438375
You can use software like https://bitcoin.tax It calculates the cost basis and fairmarket value of every trade automatically, and can export the proper IRS forms. You just have to import the CSV's. You do have to pay to import unlimited trades though. (over 100)

>>4438484
oops first quotation was for
>>4438241

So I already cashed out once into fiat this year because I'm retarded. I guess it makes the most sense for me to just cash out again at the end of the year right? And then I just pay short-term capital gains? No spending hours and hours and hours rifling through 1000's of trades?

>>4437172
So my question is let's say I pay the proper amount of taxes based solely on profit, not trying to evade etc. But I don't break it down trade by trade. The I get audited but they find that I paid the appropriate amount of tax for the profit o made. Is there some sort of extra penalty for not breaking it down trade by trade on the proper paperwork? Don't they just care if they got the right amount of tax money?

>>4438572
Yeah, you would have done things incorrectly but you wouldn't actually owe them anything.

>>4438563
>>4438572
I don't see why you want to mess with that and "hope" that the IRS will be reasonable with you and not accuse you of inaccurately reporting. (tax fraud) Like I said there's AUTOMATED SOFTWARE. I know I seem like I'm shilling it, but it really was quite simple to use. https://bitcoin.tax

How do you report based on profit without fudging something? Like for example if you report on 8949 that you bought 1 bitcoin. then later cashed out 5. How do you explain where the 4 extra bitcoins come from? You can't just have them popping out of nowhere without being insta-audited.

>>4438661
Alright fine, I'll use the stupid fucking website. Here's something though. Right now my MEW is incorrectly saying I have 5075 MOD that I don't actually have. Somehow I sent them to etherdelta and sold them but the website still shows them as in my wallet. So what the hell is the IRS going to say about that???

They'll be forced to change the laws eventually. A multicurrency economy is far more efficient because a blockchain using economy is far more efficient for anything from brokerage to selling access to digital media.

Just don't cash out for now and wait. This shit will blow over. Some unlucky people will get majorly destroyed in the meantime though because the IRS loves to make examples of people.

>>4438661
It's dollars in vs dollars out. If I paid taxes on everything I gained I don't see how they could get me for anything when I didn't do anything wrong in the first place money wise or tax wise, just poor documentation. If they audited me I'd be all good

>>4438918
We live in a multicurrency economy now, dingus. Guess what? You still have to report capital gains.

Bitcoin isn't even a currency, remember? It's a "store of value?" And the SEC considers ICOs to be a securities, not currency.

>>4437070
thanks, just sent 100k

>>4438973
I'm not talking about shitcoin.
Imagine when your house renting goes through a platform that has its own internal currency. Imagine when a decentralized cloud computing service becomes the largest in the world and uses its own token of exchange by necessity because of its smart contract properties.
Imagine when the same applies to storage, logistics tracking, escrows, asset tokens (including stocks)-

Imagine when you have payment services that automatically convert between what you have to pay with and what the service requires for payment. Simply unlocking streaming rights on a better more efficient blockchain run version of spotify would cause "realization of capital gains" according to current rules.

The future is entirely incompatible with current tax rules.

>>4438812
I don't see how that's possible. You probably do have those MOD. Can you see them on etherscan.io too?
>>4438930
The problem is there's literally no form that allows you to do that. What form would you use and how exactly would you report it? 1099B and 8949 require you to put details like the cost basis of exchanges and date acquired, date sold, proceeds.

Any Aussies in here?

I'm actually carrying trading as a business. As such, i can deduct all of my operating expenses, including part of my rental amount, from my main job's income tax.

Anyone else doing this?

>>4438463
Well if Monero ever gets more market adoption with merchants you could buy shit with that. I doubt the IRS is going to set up cameras monitering your mailbox or front porch.

How can you fuckers be so dumb. What did you move from fiat into coin this year? Add it up. Add whatever you started with on January 1. At the end of the year move everything to Coinbase, convert it to your USD wallet on December 31. Whatever you made in profit is a gain that you pay on. Whatever you lost you declare as a loss. If you add up every trade separately it comeds to exactly the same figure. Move it back into coins January 1 and begin trading.

>>4436132
haha fag

>>4436274
The market is big enough here that you're probably getting dragged down with us. Tough luck eurofag.

>>4439125
They show up on etherscan but not in my metamask. Believe me I wish I did have them. I used to have them, but I sold it all on etherdelta save 2.
https://etherscan.io/address/0xB22B23E5E7D7c623aafB6c34C677872C5EbBA247

>>4439230
And I sold them at 1.30 -_-

>>4436533
>cashing out and moving to another country off bitbean

kek

Just pay taxes on what you cash out to USD and the IRS will be happy enough. If youre making millions, hire a good accountant

>>4439156

can't buy a house with Monero

>>4436810
Structuring is only a criminal offense if you know that it's illegal; without mens rea it's a civil offense and they "only" take your money via asset forfeiture.

>>4439230
Wait a sec, now they don't show up. Well that's weird. Maybe it was just in my browser cache.

>>4436674
yeah because everyone here has more than the $50,000 limit they got records on

>>4439248
>can't buy a house with Monero

Yes, congratulations, you've found one thing you can't buy with Monero. Meanwhile, for 50 billion other products in existence...

>>4438278
no he's right, money in your bank isn't taxed

>>4439284

can't buy a car either

>>4439295
>can't buy a car either

Yes you can. You just trade for it under the table and have the bill of sale say he gave it to you for $100 or something.

Doesn't work at dealers, but works with private sales.

Again, still missing the point regardless. You have to use your brain a little here.

>>4437567
only $3000 of them which is shit

>>4439176
That is how it would ideally work yes but many countries including the US considers it a crime to not keep a record of every single trade, because they want to make sure you didn't siphon any gains off on the way.

>>4439254
So there's people out there that just by pure bad luck made multiple diposits/withdrawals under 10k and had all their shit taken? lmao

>>4436290
How will they tackle decentralized exchanges?

>>4439176
Ok and what form are you going to use to input your total investment, total gain, total loss, and total profit? (it doesn't exist)

>>4439291
He's saying capital gains shouldn't apply if you're money is in custody of an exchange on your behalf. I'm saying that's like saying income tax shouldn't apply if you're money is in custody of a bank on your behalf.

>>4439324
Hmmm, couldn't you pay someone physically with crypto by just giving them a paper wallet? Like make an entirely new wallet, send the amount you need in it, print it out and hand it to the guy? would that work?

>>4439362
When you cash out, they will demand to know every wallet address you have and account for every transaction, which includes those made to DEX. If there's even a single one you can't explain, they can legally ruin you.

>>4439352
>So there's people out there that just by pure bad luck made multiple diposits/withdrawals under 10k and had all their shit taken?
Yes.
http://reason.com/blog/2017/04/04/irs-seized-17-million-from-innocent-busi

>>4439373
income is applied to income, not what you have in your bank account

Iv only invested maybe 1800 and lost about 1000 from dips and bad trades. Do i just need my bittrex records and coinbase records go give my accountant at tax time? At this point iv never cashed out all money is on bittrex

>>4439396
what is the likelihood of this happening? I have made thousands of them.

>>4439413
.... I know... and if you deposit your income gets deposited to your bank does that mean you don't have to pay income tax?

>>4439446
>and if your income gets deposited to your bank does that mean you don't have to pay income tax?*

>>4439429
Extremely unlikely that they will do this to any particular person. For the minority of the cases where they even bother investigating, they are likely to offer a simplified deal of "money out of crypto minus the money you put in minus some % tax".


However, the law itself allows them to ruin anyone if they truly want to, which is scary as hell.

What percentage of what you would have to pay in capital gains taxes are you allowed to make charitable contributions instead in the US? Does anyone know? I tried to find the information and can't figure out if you can basically donate instead of paying the IRS. I would much rather do that and still be a responsible citizen.

>>4439409
Gee and I wonder how all of those small business owners voted in elections...

>>4436628
>>4436638
coins are classed as commodities which do not carry any provisions for capital loss deduction

>>4435928
Lost all my bitcoin in a boating accident

i doubt anyone here is actually tading.

much less get to the point of cashing out and explaining a step by step instruction on how to do it.

/biz/ is full of pajeets and white autistic larpers.

>>4439516
They're classified as property, not commodities.
>Q-1: How is virtual currency treated for federal tax purposes?
>A-1: For federal tax purposes, virtual currency is treated as property.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

>>4439597
Why would you NOT be trading this if you know how? It's like printing free money at this point. The only people I believe are LARPing are those claiming they lost their life savings etc. I mean I'm not saying you should be a gozillionaire but I myself have put in less than $300 and already doubled it. That's since last Tuesday when I started.

>>4437107
>tfw i file my niggercoin losses on my tax form
god i'm dying

>>4437100
>income tax
>sales tax
>property tax
>barter tax
this is exactly why people are fleeing to crypto-
gov has gone too far for too long on this shit

>>4439413
Gaining something of more value than what you traded for is considered income. If I trade a banana for a car then I have to pay tax as if I made the actual dollars in the difference between the fair value of the two. That's how it appears the IRS is treating crypto, rather than as they do stocks.

>>4437134
lol
rats like you are why government has gotten so shit, too

>>4437338
sorry to keep picking on you, but of COURSE they'll say "it's taxable"?
when the fuck does any gov say "nah we don't wanna make more money. we'll work on spending less!"
crypto is god-like, because it has the same powers as a gov (issuing currency), without imposing any force

I’m already living beyond the law. Taxes is the last of my worries. Oh well, it’s Tony Blair’s fault for fucking up the job market by importing millions of scabby Eastern Europeans.

>>4436156
It's taxed as property, and gains are subject to capital gains taxes. If you hold for 12 months, long term CG applies. <12 months, short term (regular income tax)

Not a big deal - its income tax so you only lose a fraction of your gains.

Also, there's no concrete fifo law, so you can pick and choose which lot you're selling when you do.

>>4438661
>You can't just have them popping out of nowhere without being insta-audited.
gov doesn't understand how mining works?

>>4439699
top fucking kek.

>Auditor: "So it says here you took $632.39 losses in 'niggercoin'"
>You: "uhhh.. yeah"
>yfw auditor is black and you know it isn't ending well now

>>4436240
I believe it's the actual price, not fair market value, for property (inc crypto)

My trading history is just massive bad mistakes. I pity whoever has to do mine one day. It's embarrassing.

I don't get whats so hard about this? Literally just keep track of your trades or find someone to do it for you. All you have to do is figure out your realized gains and realized losses. You don't have to calculate everytime the price fluctuates with a coin you are holding.

> Buy coin at $30, coin goes to $300
you only pay taxes on the above when you actually make a transaction. If you're just holding it hasn't been realized yet.

>>4439746
>>4439756
A CPA's job, at least one who's preparing taxes, is to keep their client from getting fucked. A CPA giving advice telling a client that something is legal when its not is an incompetent one and deserves to lose his professional certification. Its even worse than one that is just crooked and advising their client on how to commit tax fraud in a way that's less likely to get caught as it would be making a client think that something that would be tax fraud is actually legal. And do you know what happens when the IRS later comes back after their client? The client is subject to far harsher penalties than the CPA in terms of the penalty amount.

>>4438661
Ain’t clicking that shit nigga

>>4436297
Has already been written into law that LKE doesn't apply to crypto.

>>4436340
It's not that it's inappropriate, it's already law. The part that isn't law yet is FIFO. Right now, you can pick and choose which lot you're selling from.

>>4439804
The law is just an ongoing debate. I’ll wait until someone tells me what the real deal is, then I’ll know what laws to break.

>>4439779
>gov doesn't understand how mining works?
Last thing you want to do is claim them as coming from mining you'd owe FICA taxes on top of income tax as they class mining as self-employment income.

>>4439825
how the fuck can it be income. You're literally creating the bitcoins. If I fucking craft 100 wooden rocking chairs by hand then I don't pay income tax on the value of the wooden chairs I created until I SELL them.

>>4436779
Just when you sell for more than you buy. So, only the good trades are taxed.

Nah
Only if you make money on the trade...maybe
I always lose value when I trade so I am in the clear.

>>4439783
top fucking kek

>implying black people will be auditing cryptos, when 90% of holders are racist and a dapp will do this job anyway

>>4439804
No it hasn't, AICPA has written multiple times requesting for the IRS to finally issue guidance on this and they still haven't. Common thought is that it'll be disallowed but that's still guessing at what they'll actually do.

>>4438137
>Let me go call up Bittrex
>expecting exchanges to answer
it'll be fun too, when it's all decentralized exchanges

make a gov-crypto, slap a 3% tax on all transactions, and remove IRS

ez pz

>>4436933
There's several laws for crypto already passed by congress, actually. Gains are a taxable event.

>>4437020
Now if only those laws had anything to do with crypto... which they don't.

>>4439851
I fully agree that this is retarded and its the regulation on crypto that I have the largest problem with but that's how its currently classified.
>Q-8: Does a taxpayer who “mines” virtual currency (for example, uses computer resources to validate Bitcoin transactions and maintain the public Bitcoin transaction ledger) realize gross income upon receipt of the virtual currency
resulting from those activities?
>A-8: Yes, when a taxpayer successfully “mines” virtual currency, the fair market value
of the virtual currency as of the date of receipt is includible in gross income
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf
Directly under that it talks about how you owe self-employment taxes on it.

>>4436831
>still has 7 years to get caught

>>4439800
i honor you for upholding those values
tho, i must complain that the laws based upon it are quite crappy
i do hope you're able to help people, but at the same time i do hope things change
this shit is way too fucking complex

>>4435928
FUCK THE IRS

In Australia, capital gains just gets added to your income and you pay tax based on your income bracket. You only have to report your earnings at the end of the financial year as far as I know.

Guys I'm fucking scared. I am only 18 and just got bitcoin like 3 weeks ago. I made lots of trades on bittrex and made few gains. Do i have to report this? I forgot what trades I Did! Fuckkkkkk me man. Someone tell me what to do. I'll donate some ETH someone just fucking help I'm scared as shit.

>>4437034
Your CPA friend is wrong, btw.

>>4437044
No, any gains are taxable events.

>>4437068
Your tax lawyer doesn't know tax law. Interesting larp.

>>4437071
Only on gainful sales.

>>4437105
Taxable if the market values say that you got more $ worth of gold than you taxed in crypto - cause that's a gain.

>>4437249
That the gains weren't realized is irrelevant, but when you take a loss, it subtracts fro. your tax liability the same way your gains add to it.

>>4439779
Wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of drug dealers laundering money by saying they "mined" bitcoins. That's why the IRS is hiring Chainalysis that could easily prove you didn't mine them, what pool they came from etc etc.

>>4439783
thanks made me spit scotch all over my phone.

>>4439984
>Guys I'm fucking scared. I am only 18 and just got bitcoin like 3 weeks ago. I made lots of trades on bittrex and made few gains. Do i have to report this?
Depends on how much you made. I'm assuming you're a dependent with not much regular income since you're only 18. If that's the case and your realized gains are under $1050 you don't need to file. If they're over $1050 you do. That number would include stock gains by the way if you're in the stock market as well.

>I forgot what trades I did
Bittrex allows you to download that information, you can then import that to bitcoin.tax.

>>4439938
They'd lose to any competent lawyer in court. By that logic the IRS could consider anything you build in your garage to be income. If I build a birdhouse that could retail at a swap meet for $15 then the IRS could never consider it a taxable event that I built it. They will lose the first time they go after a miner solely for gains maid from mining without selling for fiat or trading. (if he doesnt settle that is)

like 300 people filed crypto last year.

>>4440141
this is exactly what would happen. They would lose big time.

>>4440141
Their logic is that you aren't building a bitcoin, you're receiving payment in the form of a bitcoin for the work you did mining. As far as how a court would rule it'd be interesting, I think that your argument makes more sense than theirs but courts tend to go with government agencies more often than not regardless.

>>4437813
If the USD market value shows a gain, that's a taxable event. Losses subtract. But whether you claim the USD or not, crypto (for tax purposes) is property.

>>4439875
IRS says it's property in 2014
In 2016 a bunch of accountants ask the IRS to clarify something that needs no clarification.
2017: "It's a subject of debate." -/biz/

>>4436933
>prison would be better than this wageslave prison anyway

Holy shit I'm not alone.

>>4440186
>IRS says it's property in 2014
Yes, and 8824 like kind exchanges apply to property.
>IRS says its property
>Hey IRS can we use these property rules in regards to crypto? I mean they supposedly work for all like kind property not disallowed which crypto hasn't been but the definition of like kind is murky
>...
>Well yes or no?
>...

>>4440168
Who's paying you then? Who are they proving I received payment from when new bitcoin is created?

>>4440235
>no individual is actually paying you
Yeah. That's why I think your argument makes more sense than theirs but the court system isn't necessarily always fair.

>>4440207
LKE for property still takes in market value.
If I trade a small shitty diamond for a large quality one worth 100x as much, it's not an LKE, it's taxable because there's a market value. And there's a value for btc.

Like I said, there's no debate. Just a bunch of hopeful idiots.

>>4440306
Where can I find the official government list of fair market value for crypto at different times? Every exchange says a different value at different times, so I need to know what $ amounts to use for the tax man.

>>4440306
>If I trade a small shitty diamond for a large quality one worth 100x as much, it's not an LKE, it's taxable because there's a market value. And there's a value for btc.
Except that's not what happens in any crypto trade on an exchange. You are trading cryptos worth the exact same amount at the time of the trade for one another. The FMV on each side is identical. What does happen is that your cost basis is adjusted up. You sound completely unfamiliar with 8824s as your example is a property class that's already been specifically disallowed.

>>4440366
If they do allow LKE's though, I hope they make a more concise method of reporting than this 2 page 8824 form. Because I'm going to have to mail them like 2000 pages.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8824.pdf

>>4440656
>If they do allow LKE's though, I hope they make a more concise method of reporting than this 2 page 8824 form. Because I'm going to have to mail them like 2000 pages.
Yeah, that's why I'm not even going to bother. Its not worth all that paperwork when I think they'll probably disallow cryptos anyways. Its just frustrating that they won't go ahead and just preemptively announce that when they've been asked multiple times.

>self employment taxes
Holy fucking shit these people have us cucked six ways from Sunday.

>>4440355
The "fair price" is whatever price you paid for it. The exchange you used should record your cost basis. So look at that. If not I hope you've been recording it by hand or you're gonna need to open up your butthole.

Hey anons. If you need tax advice, you can give me a (you) anytime. I see that there alot of you, young, and ignorant, with taxes. For a small fee of .01 BTC, I'll help you out.

I'm a CPA and a law school student, ya know.

Hey anons. If you need tax advice, you can give me a (you) anytime. Seeing this thread, there are a lot of you who are young and ignorant with taxes. For a small fee of .01 BTC, I'll help you out.

I'm a CPA and a law school student, ya know.

>>4437162
its not. not according to IRS guidance.

>>4440864
Again, the IRS has not provided guidance on this one way or the other. Most accountants are guessing that they won't allow it but its not an official position of the IRS.

>>4440882
Virtual currency that has an equivalent value in real currency, or that acts as a substitute for real currency, is referred to as “convertible” virtual currency. Bitcoin is one example of a convertible virtual currency. Bitcoin can be digitally traded between users and can be purchased for, or exchanged into, U.S. dollars, Euros, and other real or virtual currencies. For a more comprehensive description of convertible virtual currencies to date, see Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) Guidance on the Application of FinCEN’s Regulations to Persons Administering, Exchanging, or Using Virtual Currencies (FIN-2013-G001, March 18, 2013).

>>4440018
Wait, can someone prove whether a Bitcoin was mined or not?

Or where it came from? What if you tumble it?

>>4440830
Look, this entire thread is retarded. You people are debating over trivial matters an accounting student in uni can answer. Just pay me for my services and I'll tell you why.

>>4440933
What's your point?

>>4440951
I'm guessing that you'd only catch it in an audit, because there would be no equivalent fiat into crypto transaction to account for the amount of mined currency you have.

>>4440355
>>4440366
They're worth their USD or USDT value at the time of trade. If values are equal - doesn't matter. If you take a loss, record it and it subtracts tax liability the same way gains do.
It's not a big deal right now BC the IRS doesn't really give a shit, and when they start it'll be like the RIAA going after file sharers - sporadic enough that no one will care.
But, your argument is just playing dumb. "What's the fair market value?" Literally the USD/T value in the market. If you buy a widget at Walmart for $1000, and trade it to someone for two brand new widgets of a different color - that's a taxable event.

As I said - it doesn't and likely never will matter all that much. But, there's no debate - just hopeful idiots. The audits are coming, just not for poorfags.

>>4441010
What if I mined it in 2010/2011 and threw away the computer I mined it on?

>>4441036
>But, your argument is just playing dumb. "What's the fair market value?" Literally the USD/T value in the market. If you buy a widget at Walmart for $1000, and trade it to someone for two brand new widgets of a different color - that's a taxable event.
That's not my argument, my argument is that they have the same FMV. My further argument is that having a FMV does not prevent like kind exchange treatment. Buildings obviously have a FMV, as do vehicles, yet both are eligible for 8824 treatment.

>>4440999
I just wanted to paste the text from the IRS site that kind of backs up what you've been saying.

>>4435928
yep

I can't wait until next year when 90% of biz gets IRS JUSTed because they are too fucking think to accept the truth

you fuckin bastards and your psychological warfare god dammit why is humanity so needlessly cruel

>>4441037
I'm no expert, so this is really just a guess, but if you had the mined currency and then basically threw it away, you'd probably just miss out on being able to count it as a loss.

If you bought something, converted into fiat, etc..., an auditor would want to know how you had the money to pay for the item, where the fiat came from, etc...

>>4437188
Only sane/useful info here. You're fine unless you traded around 100k+ this year

>>4441199

Because life is a competition

>>4441209
Wait, you guys haven't made over 100k this year? At any given time, I can click any post on biz and find a crypto expert. That's the reason we're all a little freaked out in this thread, man. haha I'm just playing, though. I've made like $300.00 total.

>>4441037
>>4441204
Technically the IRS says he should have claimed it as self-employment income that year. Realistically the IRS is never going to catch this if he mined it on a computer he never transferred it off of and has since lost access to them.

>>4441258
Lol yeah and I took the 100k+ number out of my ass, but it's upper class / high asset Americans that are even remotely worth it for the IRS to investigate/audit.

Another example, we're supposed to report every online purchase where income tax wasn't paid. That means every stupid transaction like the $3 charger cable you bought on eBay. Again, no one fucking reports this, and the IRS knows it.

>>4441301
*state sales tax I meant, not income

Remember when Amazon didn't charge that? We were all great little tax evaders

>>4441301
gotta remember they are looking for pot growers and drug dealers using crypto. so if you can't prove you traded to get your shit, they are gonna assume its from drugs.

>>4441301
>Lol yeah and I took the 100k+ number out of my ass, but it's upper class / high asset Americans that are even remotely worth it for the IRS to investigate/audit.
This is completely false, low income people get audited all the time over things like missing a 1099 or a cancellation of debt. If coinbase/bittrex sends something saying you had $20,000 worth of transactions(which most here will probably hit, we're not talking gains with that figure just gross) and you aren't reporting anything don't be shocked when you get an audit letter in 2019 or 2020. I say then because they're usually at least one tax season behind.
>Another example, we're supposed to report every online purchase where income tax wasn't paid. That means every stupid transaction like the $3 charger cable you bought on eBay. Again, no one fucking reports this, and the IRS knows it.
That's for state sales tax, something the IRS has nothing to do with.

>>4441270
Right, I'm with you. I mean, there's nothing to catch in that case. The auditor may think it's odd that your electric bill went up during that month, but if you legit lost/destroyed the earnings from it, it doesn't seem like they would care.

I was thinking the original question was more inline with something like, "What if I mine the currency, cash out/make a purchase, then get rid of what I used to mine it with."

>>4436614
are you really that surprised to realize the USA is an extremely expensive third world country? The high price works wonders in fooling its citizens into believing that they're first world, go figure...

>>4441449
^^ This guy... That's like some shit my younger cousins would be talking about at Thanksgiving. Oh man, I need the time off work, but I don't want to see those people... the yearly holiday dread is starting to kick in.

If the IRS fucks me when my LINK moons I WILL be the first AnCap terrorist

Just hold your fiat on a trading site and cash out right before end of year. Makes it easy to calculate gains.

two words
Decentralized Exchanges!


good luck IRS

>>4442298
shh

>>4442921
this solves about 10% of the problem