/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>29617496
serious question, why can't we copy xmr code and paste it into btc code

>>29617557
Bitcoin was taken over a long time ago. The people who control it now would never let it happen.

>>29617742
no one controls bitcoin sir schizo

yeah a coin that bleeds eternally will take over a coin that continues to grow exponentially year after year.

>>29617862
Would love to see your response on this then
https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/740

>>29617496
I believe in the prophecy too anon

>>29618171

>>29618155
alright, so they removed the paper why exactly? because of some lawsuit?
alright, then put it back in? then see who is again it and try to kick him out

>>29617557
You're going to get shitty answers asking this on biz, so I got you bro. Check out this response from one of the best devs in crypto

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/101868/is-there-something-about-bitcoin-that-prevents-us-from-implementing-the-same-pri

>>29618155
So that developers don't have to waste time and money on a pointless court case with csw? This is a worthless battle to fight, its better that they review code instead of this crap

>>29619168
>Both Zcash and Monero replace the UTXO set (whose size scales proportional to usage, and can and does shrink from time to time) with a different data structure that grows forever (proportional to how many coins have been moved). This is a major scalability concern, but only manifests itself under actual load. I believe both Zcash and Monero see far fewer transactions per unit of time than Bitcoin, so they may not suffer very much under this (yet). This makes it a fundamental trade-off: better scalability, or better on-chain privacy, and it's unclear if all users would be happy with changing that.
WAHATTT? Is this true, i thought the whole point of moneros tech, like lower fees with more users is good for scalability?

>>29617557
Also check out the latest development on a new bitcoin privacy technique that doesn't require any invasive changes to the base protocol

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-February/018426.html

>>29619625
woah, I've read everything but still don't really get it, but from what i understand it sounds awesome
worried about fees though, any way to reduce fees without LN?

>>29619612
Not only that concern, but even individual transactions in monero are around 10x bigger than bitcoin transactions due to the ring signatures and bulletproofs involved.

Scaling a blockchain is hard work. Monero is not a shitcoin unlike so many others, but to downplay the level of challenge and carefulness of the bitcoin community in scaling is doing it a disservice

Check out this example of the kind of actual cryptography work being done under the radar on bitcoin. Believe it or not the simplicity of bitcoin and the extreme care that is taken on the inner workings actually make it one of the most scalable coins out there. Don't get distracted with bullshit block size fud.

https://medium.com/blockstream/a-formal-proof-of-safegcd-bounds-695e1735a348

>>29619891
>but even individual transactions in monero are around 10x bigger than bitcoin transactions due to the ring signatures and bulletproofs involved.
>cant scale well
noooo my 0.07 moneries are about to be worthless
anon, please tell me lies instead, I really thought monero had amazing scalability and cool fee tech

https://archive.is/Wc98t

>>29619891
anon I'd like to thank you for posting information and answering my questions by the way

>>29619891
>>Check out this example of the kind of actual cryptography work being done under the radar on bitcoin.
> This algorithm would dramatically improve transaction signing performance
that's really cool but what exactly does that mean for fees and tx per sec?

>>29619845
It really just comes down to your choice. For most bitcoiners, we realize that we don't need final settlement and immutable censorship resistance of a coffee purchase, however for our life savings this is more important. We will achieve scale through many ways, all of them involve different tradeoffs, which of you opt into bitcoin you will be able to choose which set of tradeoffs you accept for your daily use.

Lightning, channel factories, liquid, statechains, shadowchains, drivechains, etc and many more that haven't been thought of yet. Majority of users don't care about any of this and will transact directly through paypal or square. For large amounts you will use the base layer. Its really your choice what to use depending on what you are trying to do.

However to ignore the problem and assume you can have interesting use cases like streaming money on the base layer, forcing every network participant to download, verify, and store your 10 sats/sec streaming payment is not possible without killing the very properties that make the technology unique. Blockchains are remarkably inefficient and you can always be undercut by a more centralized service. Competing on that playing field with the core protocol is the wrong approach

>>29620363
Directly, nothing right now. But it's the exact sort of thing that gets you way more bang for your buck when you actually have a block size increase sometime down the road. Here's another interesting tech that is happening under the radar that makes running clients much easier, and will pave the way for full nodes running on smartphones, something no other coin is even close to being able to achieve due to their short term thinking

https://dci.mit.edu/utreexo

>>29620068
Monero has very cool tech and has chosen a different set of tradeoffs. It's one of the few altcoins I have respect for, but ultimately my heart is with bitcoin

>>29620449
Interesting way to look at it, would really like your thoughts on coins like Algorand, personally i don't hold any, but their system appears to be able to solve security and scalability
or is it important to have proof of work? If yes, what about kadena? They have proof of work that also scales
so.. it is possible? but you make it sound like it's not

also can you fud DAG coins please?

>>29620695
>Utreexo is a novel hash based dynamic accumulator, which allows the millions of unspent outputs to be represented in under a kilobyte
thats incredible..
anon why do you know so much, are you satoshi?

>>29620776
>It's one of the few altcoins I have respect for, but ultimately my heart is with bitcoin
yeah i see that, and apparently for good reason, also what are some of those "few altcoins", would be immensely interested into what someone like you would consider even worthy to look at

>>29617496
XMR serves a different purpose than BSV. They will coexist.

>>29619845
>any way to reduce fees without LN?
Third-party, Which is all LN ultimately was anyway. Just super convoluted way of doing so. >>29619065

>>29620449
>all this misdirection just to say Third-party

Its really quite incredible how you snakes work.

>>29621449
after reading your post im suddenly bearish on crypto for some reason

Wownero has outperformed Monero this bullrun. That is an undisputable fact.

>>29621777
Wownero unironically looks like a good stablecoin lmao

>>29621777
>>29622387

>>29617496
BitCucks can't into fundamentals.

>>29622502
>>29622387
>>29621777
s-should i mine wownero?

>>29621449
>massive blocks with all data on chain
Can't think of a more third party system than this at scale. Hope you like infura because node providers like that would be required to use bitcoin at all

>>29621777
>>29622502
>>29622574
>>29622387
No

>>29622520
Correct

>>29622783
>internet becomes 150+ AWS their competing with each other to secure your data instead of our current system where the entire internet is mostly based off literally just AWS who harvests your data and controls your life

Sign me the fuck up.

>>29623073
are you pro bsv?

>>29619625
This cannot and does not work. XMR used to do this and all those transactions can be tracked. The problem lies in the fees and splitting up the total amount of BTC in smaller amounts. Basically you would always need to send a round number.

Which is just never going to happen. This has been tried in XMR and it failed. And now BTC will adopt this? Lmao.

>>29619891
Incorrect they are only 3x bigger. Also BTC is NOT scaling. EVER. Lightning is literally banking 2.0. and has lots of problems. This is literally maxi BS talk. BTC does NOT scale and HAS NOT SCALED for the last 5 years. Transactions are stuck at 10million a day. This is a fact.

>>29620449
Nope. Keep dreaming. 5 years and 0 progress.

BTC is old tech, and people are trying to fix a flawed design. It cannot be "fixed".

>>29619625
Not true privacy, retard. Enjoy your tainted bitcoins.

>>29623340
thanks anon, but bitcoin isnt going anywhere, what do you think will happen in the next decade?

>>29623133
Absolutely.

>>29623856
thanks for being honest, Will now try to forget everything you said

>>29623340
>BTC is NOT scaling. EVER. Lightning is literally banking 2.0. and has lots of problems. This is literally maxi BS talk. BTC does NOT scale and HAS NOT SCALED for the last 5 years. Transactions are stuck at 10million a day. This is a fact.

This

>>29623926
Stay ignorant.

>>29624078
you will never be a real bitcoin

>>29623340
Cool, since you're so smart I dare you to fud the coinswap project on the dev mailing list and watch how quickly you get destroyed. The fees have nothing to do with anything, they look like normal bitcoin transactions with varying amounts, unlike equal output coinjoins

can anyone reply to >>29620954
>>29624917 maybe :)

The issue with "Bitcoin" is that it's a word that doesn't represent something immutable. At least Monero has planned hardforks, so is less prone to that multiple personalities disorder.

>>29624991
Nigger tongue my anus.

>>29625308
you will never be a real bitcoin

>>29617496
This is honestly the only coin I can see fulfilling BTC's digital purpose as cypherpunk cash

>>29620449
>>29619891
The blockchain is stored on disk and you can already get a 5tb ssd for like $100.
>>29617742
>>29620096
>Majority of users don't care about any of this and will transact directly through paypal or square. For large amounts you will use the base layer. Its really your choice what to use depending on what you are trying to do.
/thread

>>29626512
xmr blockchain I should clarify since some people might be slow

>>29626512
fuck so that's why paypal accepted bitcoin, they KNOW that its what btc needs?
and they want to be the place to transact it..

>>29626512
Disk is just one factor and the least important. Bandwidth and cpu usage are the main things that bottleneck the network. And again, monero scales like shit relative to bitcoin in terms of actual world scale. The only reason it doesn't matter or affect monero decentralization right now is because the amount of transactions are incredibly low

>>29617496
This
Darknet now only accepts monero. Bitcoin was delisted on most markets. That's a really good long term sign.

>>29625957
I doubt.
I love XMR and it is the best privacy coin right now. But
How long does it take for transaction to finalize? Anything above 5 seconds and this has no use as a cash.
When people start building privacy coins on AVAX it will be the real game changer.

If only XMR were actually profitable to mine. Idc how expensive it gets when you pay to mine 1 coin a year.

>>29627138
>Darknet now only accepts monero
I wish this was true but it's very much not so right now. There are still major markets that are BTC-only and don't even accept XMR. The problem is normies don't know how to buy XMR because there are a couple of extra steps involved, especially if you're a burger. Buying BTC is as simple as making a Coinbase account. Normies always take the path of least resistance, and the awful markets are always going to cater to these people

>>29627264
True. Maybe XMR could be like the savings account, and something faster could be the daily spending account. Whatever happens, XMR seems much better cutout for almost any task than BTC

>>29617496
Also, look at the amount of transactions in all cryptocurrencies compared to price. Monero has like a third of all transactions. It's valued under $250.
It only takes a few brain cells to see that this is the most massively undervalued crypto around right now. Based on that alone anyone would be bullish.
Overall though this is almost exactly the position btc was in 7 years ago, and for some reason now so many newfags are in crypto that they can't think about long term value anymore.

>>29624917
Sure I will reply to you dare since you did not even bother to read the article yourself. First off all:
"Because the taker chose how much bitcoin to coinswap and when, they paid a fee to each maker to provide an incentive for the makers to keep the software running" there will be extra fees

Second they are talking about a maker, which will be a trusted setup.

Third they openly admit this protocol shows a coinswap has taken place (multisig accounts), which automatically flags you for AML by tracing software

And fourth they also state (at the end) loads of improvements are needed for fungability and privacy.

You did not even bother to read your own shill brainlet. This shit has a shitton of problems so why would it even get adopted?

And finally all BTC addresses will still remain public which will always leave it vurnable to tracing tools.

>>29626642
>Bitcoin needs Third-partys to work

This is why we can't have nice things, because you people are propaganized.

>>29627053
Montero will be fine so long as they allow it to scale. With adaptive blocks miners will figure it out. True its transactions are heavier than most Bitcoin transactions, but that doesn't really matter.

Its not literally unscaleable like ETH,

>>29626512
>BTC has to many problems you should not use it
>It is also the future by the way

>>29627425
Which ones? I know whitehouse took BTC down recently and a lot of the other big ones I've looked at are now taking only monero.
Btc opsec is just too much of a hassle now when monero does it easy. Plus getting monero is easy even when exchanges delist it. The government being against XMR is literally the only reason it isn't overtaking ETH already.

>>29627264
Crypto is realistically only going to be used online, so a delay in the time it takes to make a payment is a non-factor. Crypto being limited to online usage isn't too big of an issue though since in-person retail is on the way out.

>>29627513
But what would be the point of a savings account if you never use it? Until crypto is whittled down to only a handful of coins in active usage, it won't ever see widespread use.

>>29627264
Privacy is not something that you just "bolt on".

>>29627264
XMR has 0-conf. It works perfectly well as cash.

>>29627795
>But what would be the point of a savings account if you never use it?
Would you rather your account be publicly visible and easily regulated? If not then you want a privacy coin.
I think many normies will move away from BTC once they see how easy it is to regulate when everything you do can be monitored and taxed.

>>29627264
>AVAX

>>29617742
chinks and jews aren't people though and they're the ones controlling that surveillance coin

>>29627767
Cannahome comes to mind. It's been a few months since I have checked, so maybe it's different now, but they have always been a BTC only market. I know several normie weed dealers and all of them get the majority of their product from Cannahome. I've actually talked to them about this, and most of them don't even PGP-encrypt their addresses before sending their orders to the vendors, which is INCREDIBLY concerning. The average person ordering doesn't take opsec seriously still, and it's going to come back to haunt them so much whenever blockchain surveillance gets advanced.

>>29627053
That's true, my point is technology in general will probably keep advancing and getting cheaper so that won't be a problem for the foreseeable future, It's not able to scale to visa levels on chain as it is currently, it doesn't need to anyway because it serves a niche. The devs have already worked on things to make it more efficient like CSLAG and bulletproofs and now bulletproofs+. But you did say the opposite about bulletproofs. I thought the btc devs were also working on bulletproofs for tx speed at one point, I'm not an expert so I might be wrong though.

>>29627689
Big blocks at scale require third parties even more so. You cannot use bitcoin trustlessly at all in that case, which is actually the entire point of bitcoin. You killed the verifiability of the chain, which is the only reason to use an inefficient blockchain in the first place, so that you can compete against centralized services that can always undercut you.

>>29628959
Yeah a lot of bitcoin devs do research on different cryptography but nothing like that in bitcoin because it would basically be impossible to get consensus... Closest thing currently is confidential transactions on liquid but nobody uses it so it's irrelevant. CoinSwap paired with ECDSA 2p for legacy address types is a game changer for privacy though, its better than coinjoin and has a huge anon set, and requires no changes to bitcoin protocol. You can also do a taproot coinswap straight into a lightning channel and once lightning has been updated with PTLCs it will be extremely private off chain too, and your funding transaction isn't even tracable because of the coinswap and taproot hides the fact that it is lightning in the first place

I'm bullish that bitcoin can develop great privacy tools even without major changes. Most alt coins are too big to even run over TOR which is pathetic for privacy, thankfully bitcoin is very compact

>>29628577
Cannehome will simply get busted eventually and be replaced by something that uses XMR. Or they will finally decide to make the switch when everybody else has switched.

Right now it is a waiting game until a few more DMs join so the rest will follow.

>>29629929
You are arguing for coinswap which has a shitton of problems and is not even in production yet. By the time it actually does work Atomic swaps are out and no need for coinswap anymore. BTC is not ment for privacy and never will be.

>>29630507
Bitcoin is a civilizational project. We have as long as we need because it isn't going anywhere. And sure, bring us atomic swaps too. Coinswap into atomic swap will only benefit monero users taking the bitcoin side of the trade anyway so win win

>>29628577
That's kinda my point, all the markets which take opsec seriously are looking at becoming or already are monero only sites.

>>29629929
>'m bullish that bitcoin can develop great privacy tools even without major changes
you are delusional, is more like it.
you need to take the L man. Bitcoin privacy will never make it a viable way of transacting amounts without some form of metadata leaking. Any solution they have will be some half assed solution with a soft fork.
Handwaving it away to technology that doesn't exist and isn't being adopted (lightning network) doesn't help your cause either.
Monero is where anybody who is studying privacy is going towards.

>>29627608
it's weird how no one notices this

the average crypto user is too busy buying binance scams to appreciate real market shifts

>>29631156
Dude the metadata that leaks is when you don't use your own node using TOR. Show me another coin with anywhere close to the support built out to prioritize using your own node
Besides that betting that bitcoin can't have good privacy is like betting against the creative spirit of mankind, good luck, especially since there is so much potential. Samurai whirlpool over tor is already better than basically every single alt coin when it comes to privacy with exception of monero itself

>>29631614
>Dude the metadata that leaks is when you don't use your own node using TOR.
And this is why you really have no idea what you are talking about.
Metadata being leaked could be anything related to the transaction. The time, the amount, who is ending the transaction, where the transaction is going, where the transaction began before you received it, etc etc all are recorded for everybody to see on a blockchain. The actual ledger is transparent. The ledger has nothing to do with TOR.
Sure, using TOR will help preserve some network privacy, but this is one piece of a massive puzzle. Internet privacy is a constant battle. Bitcoin is behind on every metric when it comes to privacy when compared against Monero. It isn't in the same league.
>is like betting against the creative spirit of mankind, good luck, especially since there is so much potential
No, it's betting against the retarded rhetoric that Bitcoin maxis have that would prevent legitimate privacy protections from being implemented. Just look at the dark net. That is all the proof you need about how the privacy market is moving towards Monero.

>>29632099
Thanks for saying a bunch of shit that everybody already knows about transparent ledgers. I've already agreed that monero has better privacy than bitcoin, but to downplay the upcoming privacy technologies on bitcoin compared to literally every other alt coin is dishonest. Monero will continue to bleed sats like it always has, and bitcoin and lightning will continue to get better with more options to use privately

>>29627608
>Monero has like a third of all transactions
Do you have a link for this?

>>29632453
>you're just talking a bunch of shit
>le heckin creative spirit of the whole human race will magically fix all of its inherent flaws!! the proof is in this centralized third party layer!!
the absolute state of maxipads

>>29633260
They will. Check back in 4 years

>>29633552
They won't. Check back in 4 years.

>>29617557
They could not agree on raising the block size from 1 to 8 MB. How could they get Monero code put there.

>>29634614
>heh, through the power of love of course

>>29620776
hi mondero maxi here. come join us we have cookies ... and children

>>29617496
XMR is a government honeypot, use 0xMR

>>29627608
green

>>29637179
nope. 0xmonero is still vaporware bullshit
just like the last hundred times you spammed it
stop trying to steal from people by lying to them about the capabilities of the project
https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoMoonShots/comments/i27fhk/0xmonero_summary_of_findings/
>>/biz/thread/S24750658#p24755504
another recent beatdown >>/biz/thread/S28670476
ANOTHER recent beatdown >>/biz/thread/S29537367

>>29636442
i have recently taken the orangepill fren, due to my own DD and threads like this one.
also due to this anon
>>29623399
moar
i was there the other day when they deleted your beautiful artwork

>>29638876
>the real king