/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>28853573
Self-bumping this bitch.

>>28853573
Pepperidge Farm remembers when the Romans tried MMT

>>28853844
Based Dubs, Checked.

>>28853573
MMT is nothing "modern" it just postulates that modern sovereign industrialised nation states with high GDP """"growth""" like the US or Euro Zone, can essentially print money at will because the debt is collateralized by the military industrial complex and the strong consumer demand.
It's a circular argument because it relies on the assumption that money is like oil and that it greases the economy and that there is no such thing as too much money. But money is rather like blood, and inflation is like thinning the blood with water. You're essentially killing off the supra-organism that is the economy by doing that too much.
In the end the trust and the value of money is key, no matter how seemingly strong a country is, there are other factors in determining it's monetary power. Circumventing these basic guidelines by circular arguments does not help at all.

>>28853573
An interesting argument I heard when it comes to MMT is that sometimes taking on excessive debt is actually a good thing. Look at >>28853844. If the Romans were fiscally responsible, we would have way less in the way of beautiful architecture and more that survives to this day. Same with most palaces built in the 17th century when sovereigns took on massive debts. At the time the people must have felt like it was ridiculous, but a building like Versailles is so magnificent that the true value is only apparent now. One should never encourage wastefulness in politicians, but some things cannot be measured in money. Of course then the problem is that most democracies nowadays suck at building buildings that are worth preserving and.

>>28854690
As long as you have speculative assets to absorb inflation (real estate/bitcoin/stonks), it won't reach the "low return" commodities market like silver and shit - but when investors get spooled and it does LMAO yeah hyperinflation

>>28855156
Its not really speculative assets, it's just that these are the only "APE WANT SCARCE GOODS" assets that we have. So all the money, through the mechanisms of the Cantillion effect - rich people siphoning off wealth over time, especially through such measures as QE - essentially ends up being stored there. Real estate is expensive even under the most corrupt of governments there are taxes to be paid and upkeep cost, so stocks are where all the wealth crystallises.
With the expansion of the M2 money supply - including M1 which is liquid monetary assets - we are seeing a yearly inflation of 5-8% at least, the fact that it does not hit consumer goods as much is simply due to the fact that consumer goods are produced ever more "efficiently" (read: cheaper, in higher quantities, with less labour protection, with lower quality resources and lower regulation costs as capitalism leans onto the governments that need production to make any revenue). The real winner of this will be Bitcoin over the medium-term, because it will replace Stocks and Gold as stores of value and in some sense even real estate.
But yeah, all in all, we are approaching extinction anyway, nature will show humanity what her limits are, and it will certainly be a rude awakening at that.

>>28855010
I like massive beautiful classic buildings too but I tend to prefer stable economies where my money doesn't go to shit, kek.

>>28853573
MMT is now being put in action in US and EU. Good times are about to end.

>>28854690
Modern nation states have something Rome never had: A massive propaganda network that can gaslight citizens into believing there's no inflation.

>>28855826
How so? Be specfic.

>>28855900
While I acknowledge your point, I believe you misrepresent the fact that information and the way in which it can be manipulated is always tied to the environment in which you are moving in. Consumer inflation picking up drastically would hurt consumers a lot, and I will actually argue that once inflation reaches consumers in a qualitative way, the Central Banks are toast. Because at that point rich people just rush into safe havens and the system will crash completely.

>Zombie companies turning into de-facto hedge funds after receiving QE *cough* SoftBank, Microstrategy *cough* from governments and buying stocks, bitcoins, real estate etc. instead of rebalancing loses from the pandemic

This will not end well once they decide to sell their assets

>>28857351
This kind of company speculation happened before, the best example is Japan during the bubble economy, but the thing there was that the BoJ acted in the Interest of US Banks and tried to actively prop up and then to pop the bubble so that US capital could flow into the bankrupt (e.g. cheap) Japanese economy and destroy the formerly strong growth and high welfare capitalism that Japanese people had created for themselves.
The difference is that US central banks dont want to pop their own bubble, as that would leave them extremely vulnerable to foreign capital, mainly China.

>>28853573
it's not retarded the retarded part is to try prevent busts from happening. the boom needs the bust. if you stop it monster bubbles form. and everything going to shits.

>>28854690
You retards forget that it’s not just money supply. It’s also about debt and interest rates.
If a company pays off a 7% APR loan by taking out a 2% APR loan they’ve deleveraged themselves. This has a deflationary effect because the creditor is now receiving less total cash over the life of the loan. It’s essentially lowering the future money supply.
The economy was over leveraged in 2008. Too many businesses and banks were trading on speculative value that could never be attained in a time frame to make them solvent after the crash. The Obama years were spent restructuring these debt obligations while private citizens built back their credit and went back to school. It was a massive cluster fuck that did virtually nothing to address the structural problems in the economy at the time and he completely failed to implement any measures to try and modernize some of the outdated systems, like education and healthcare.
Remember healthcare.gov? Washington is full of retards with no real skills.
But the net effect hasn’t been hyperinflation because most of the money being pumped into the system is just spent restructuring debts, buying back stocks, refinancing etc, rather than being put towards consumer demand.

>>28855627
>But yeah, all in all, we are approaching extinction anyway, nature will show humanity what her limits are, and it will certainly be a rude awakening at that.
You’re retarded.

>>28855627
I'm a bit confused about the Cantillon effect.
Is it basically just saying that rich people are the first to benefit from and gain the most from the printing of money?
I understand that in the short run, we all "benefit" from inflation but when the inflation finally starts to really take effect, it's the poor and middle class who get hit by it the worst via their savings and their diminished wealth.
I also understand inflation to be a highly regressive tax but surely inflation would hurt the rich too in the long run so why do they keep on supporting inflationary money printing?
How do they keep the value they gained during the "fun" part of the inflation? Is it really just through investments in gold and things like that?

>>28858859
>But the net effect hasn’t been hyperinflation because most of the money being pumped into the system is just spent restructuring debts, buying back stocks, refinancing etc, rather than being put towards consumer demand.
That is exactly my perspective on the topic. Trickle down economics dont work, because banks dont really want non-performing loans on their balance sheets, so they dont lend to consumers, I mean what would they even lend them money for? Their automatized McJobs are incapable of supporting any meaningful loan. The actual problem that the US faces is that capitalism and deregulation have shifted all the capital to the rich, where it pretty much lays dormant and is unavailable to the government, so the government debt just spirals out of control as even income taxes being at all time highs can not fill the black hole that are scarce assets held by the 10% at the top. QE through banks is basically just a way to take even more money away from the government and force them into even deeper debt.

>>28853573

MMT works better than trickle down. Billionaires etc hate it because it puts lie to the austerity agenda and shows that government can do things that benefit the average person and not just the Koch Brothers. That’s why Heritage, Fox News etc shill against it so much.

>>28859002
Because rich people are not dumb and know that fiat currency is just a fucking tool and NOT a store of value. They own assets like property, gold, stocks, silver, heck even paintings are a better store of value than fucking fiat currency. Fiat currency was, is and will never be a store of value. The vast majority of people store their wealth in fiat currency because they are dumb sheep that think they will be rich by saving cash in their bank account.

>>28859002
Yes. What it basically boils down to is that the ones that hold debt - treasury bills or in other words newly minted currency - are benefiting from said debt the most, because the rest of the population has to buy said debt from them (as they own all the scarce assets, as well as the means of production, essentially enslaving the 90% with their easy access to newly minted sovereign debt (inflation).
So every new dollar printed basically enriches the rich further and further, and QE never makes it down to the normal people as they usually are not eligible for loans, let alone at the scale that would be necessary to compete with the 1%>

>>28859002
Forgot to answer the latter part of your post: Inflation and the cantillion effect results in asset prices rising, so the rich essentially always swim on top and outperform everyone else, so they get to keep their status and wealth while the rest just drown.

>>28859333
Youre barking up the wrong tree. Most people do not even have any savings worth mentioning because they have so little surplus monetary power. Wages dont keep up at all with inflation and basically impoverish people while they keep trying to stay ahead.
Sure people would be better of in storing their little savings in scarce assets but these assets are scarce and desirable, so they dont come cheap.

>>28853844
why did we accept silver/gold as currency in the first place? obviously not even the argument of "because it's a rare, limited resource" works here. it's all just fake and gay. money only has value because people believe it has value.

>>28859350
Thats only to a degree. Usually there is a break in trust in the current system where the majority of people will use the blackmarket instead. You can already see this in europe. People are moving away from supermarket chains and buy/trade on local citymarkets or directly at farmers markets.

>>28859157
please be bait

>>28853573
>How did it get so popular?
Because politicians and banks need an excuse to increase money supply.
>Why do people defend it?
Gibsmedats

>>28853573
MMT is basically a policy of US dabbing on the entire world making their colonies such as Germany and Japan hold their bags. MMT sounds retarded because they can't say what it actually is, a giant fuck you to the US colonies

>>28859662
As long as you move within the boundaries of Central Bank money you can never break away from this cycle, because everyone has to make a living and to pay taxes in the sovereign debt.

>>28859100
>The actual problem that the US faces is that capitalism and deregulation have shifted all the capital to the rich, where it pretty much lays dormant and is unavailable to the government
Not true. You think rich people just sit on fat stacks of cash and have a water tower filled with gold coins like Scrooge McDuck? No, they put that money to work in the market. They invest with VCs. They buy stocks and build real estate developments.
Most billionaires probably have less than $250,000 in cash at any given moment.
The thing poorfags don’t understand about the rich is that they got rich because they are better than you. You think about what you would do with a billion dollars and assume that they would do the same.
You don’t get rich sitting in a mansion in Miami fucking high class escorts and drinking Mai Tais.
These people work constantly. They understand how to make money and be productive and scale. They are hyper-efficient in everything they do. They manage their days in 20 minute intervals and plan every action months in advance.
Why does the government need money anyways? They don’t provide any valuable services with it. The entire state right now is a welfare system disguised as a functioning government.
Walk into any federal agency and it’s going to be 90% obese black women giving you the snappy fingers saying “uh, that is not my job”.
The government is a pit. It’s only mission in the current age is to force people to give money to it’s clients, select firms with DC connections, and black people who have been successfully domesticated into a kind of livestock to harvest Democratic votes from.

>>28859633
portable
divisible
fungible
durable
store of value
etc etc

>>28853844
You're aware as Rome expanded from a city-state to then global empire its money supply had to grow too right?

>>28859668

>Nooooo you can’t spend money on social programs; we need it for my bailout!

Get fucked Rupert

w-why is DXY pumping...

>>28859783
Youre the angry polcel from before who can only spout profanity and non-arguments huh? Not going to read your pseudo enlightened rich people are heroes bullshit.

>>28859783

Holy strawman

>>28859856
Social programs are pure waste. You have charter schools with half the funding of neighboring public schools that get 10x better results. The reason people are poor, lazy, and stupid isn't because nobody gave them enough handouts.
You might as well throw money down a black hole(pun intended).

>>28859756
>you can never break away from this cycle
People dont break away 100% all at once. Its a gradual decline. It starts with a neighbor making sausages as a hobby and selling them for cash. Of course he will not report that. This process is already in motion. The erosion of trust is too far gone already.

>>28855627
You understand economics. You don’t understand Bitcoin. The only value Bitcoin offers is payment remittance. The fact that it cannot scale and increases with the amount of users means it’s a failed technology. BTC that is. BSV however is more attractive because it plays of of capitalism and anchors data to be stored and paid for using only the coin it self. There BSV actual commoditized data on a capitalist infrastructure made possible due to the internet. Who knows how long until it gets real value and not a BTC / BSV / USD comparison. Those a negligible currently. Silver and gold will always be the base line money. BSV can act as globally connected ledger. This will still not replace gold or silver.

>>28853573
Every centralized monetary policy is retarded. All of them are theft and deception with some extra steps.

>>28859783
>Walk into any federal agency and it’s going to be 90% obese black women giving you the snappy fingers saying “uh, that is not my job”.

Did an obese sheboon bully you at the DMV faggot?? What the fuck do fat niggerwhale government workers at same random government agency at some bumfuck irrelevant city have to do with MMT and QE???

>>28860140
2 1 4 3

>>28860068
>BSV
literally unironically stopped reading after this

>>28860034

>rich people are awesome and poor people suck; there’s no point to improving society

It’s like I’m actually back in 1850. Also, >>>/pol/

>>28860140
4 > 2 > 1 > 3

>>28860140
>Every centralized monetary policy is retarded. All of them are theft and deception with some extra steps.

It’s only theft if your net worth mostly is allocated in fiat. And imagine being such a retarded faggot whose net worth is stored in fiat.

>>28860034
>that get 10x better results.
Fantasy

>>28860279
Back to r*ddit nigger. The world would benefit from less government, not more.

>>28860054
I agree with you, but it would be preferable to move away from cash and into crypto entirely. >>28860068
Thank you for your vote of confidence, but I think I understand bitcoin in so far as that it a highly liquid scarce asset, and therefore far preferable to other asset classes. Adoption is key here.
I agree with the general sentiment that bitcoin will never be used in the same way that currency is used, but even though this was the initial plan behind Bitcoin, it's evolving into a form of a digital gold network is great.

>>28859908
Seething.
I don’t think the rich are heroes. It’s more that the poor are worthless scum. Useless feeders who serve no purpose and feel entitled to be provided for by society. Why should they be provided for? They are a tumor growing on the back of productive society and the more you give them the more they grow. They will never give back more than they get. You’re just contributing to a downward spiral of waste, abuse, addiction, and entitlement.
You complain about the rich but every dime you throw at shaneequa and Cletus goes straight back into the portfolios of Phillip-Morris and Anheuser-Busch InBev.
Have you seen the way poorfags spend money?

>>28860231
You add nothing to the discussion at all in this thread. Pathetic

>>28860279
I concur anon. Ignore the polcel noise.
What the US actually needs to get itself out of this mess is a complete crackdown on corporate structures and their power and a restrengthening of labour regulations and higher welfare spending.

>>28860417
>bitcoin
Has no use in such a local economy/blackmarket as it can be traced by the government. It will switch from cash to PM as it always has.

>>28860140
3 / 2 / 1 / 4

>>28853573
>Why is MMT so retarded?
>How did it get so popular?
>Why do people defend it?
3 centuries of dysgenics

>>28860519
Look pal US (as well as EU) industries can't compete with Chinese industries. You're going to give your workers even more protections, how is that going to make your industries more competitive? You either take the pain, get fucked in the ass and emerge strong from the crisis that collapses half of the fucking country or you keep sliding into obscurity by cuddling everyone until you disappear up your own ass. Your choice

>>28860644
I think Monero is a good black market cash alternative. But only time will tell. The crypto that is trustless and swift as well as anonymous will win in that regard.

>>28860321
You didn't read MMT.

>>28860381
You can cope but when you have kids(I know I know, never gonna happen for you but just try and imagine for a little bit) I guarantee you’re going to look at the zoos that are the US public education system and scramble to get your kids into the lottery for one of the local charter schools.
Everyone has this fantasy about a world where suddenly the government manages to tax billionaires enough and they can just give all the poorfags everything they need so they magically become useful and healthy members of society. This is the real fantasy.
This has never once happened in the history of humanity. Look at what you retards do when you get a bit of cash. You spend it gambling on Pajeet scams called “crypto currency” hoping that you manage to buy the winning lotto ticket and become a multimillionaire without having to do any work.
That’s what poorfags do. They fall for get rich quick schemes. They drink. They gamble. They eat McDonalds. They fuck and get STD’s and then get pregnant and produce more poorfags.
How is /biz/ so full of blue-pulled retards? I swear this is the dumbest board on this site.

>>28853573
Because people still think its based on logic and reason and not about deferring collapse to the next generation. SHit is goig to come crashing down no matter what.

We all got to see behind the curtain in 2020 so now the goal is to accumulate enough wealth / resources to insulate your self.

>>28860719
You do realise that the "free market" is just a construct and that nobody has to necessarily allow companies to offshore their work and capital right? Its not set in stone. Protectionism has been used for centuries and has historically benefited the respective economy until the free market shills had their way

>>28860417
It’s not digital gold. Gold has inherit properties that have actual value. Silver more so. Plus historical value. Do you know why gold is so valuable? Because 1 year , 10 years, 100 years 1000 years later it’s the same value. The same piece has not changed. BTC changed its protocol so many times in the last 10 years it’s fundamentally different every time.

>>28860644
"tracked by the government"

yea if you are stupid and lazy...

The government is a joke...you know this based on how many fraudulent PPP loans there are. This shit is insane and they will never be able to catch or trace everyone.

>>28860034
This, but retards will never admit it because they would rather be slaves than take personal responsibility and exercise their agency, that is why I unironically think we should just bring back the slave markets so they can sell themselves into it, those people that want "free stuff"

>>28860752
I already checked out with some local farmers. Wouldnt accept crypto - they are all like this. A Friend of my wife does the hair for all her friends and only accepts cash. Crypto is just to unstable and you need technical devices that cant be produced locally. You need electricity and software. Sorry to bring it to you this way - it just will not happen.

>>28860901
Gold's fundamental value is a fraction of it's price. I wont even argue with such simplistic takes.
Gold and Silver's "inherent" value is just make belief monkey brain bullshit. For most of human history it was just a shiny yellow rock that was hard to get out of the ground, that was it's value.

>>28860842
Better than most of the wealth being handed down to people who have done nothing their entire lives except win the lottery in where they were born. The wealth is getting far too concentrated. Evolve from your decades old mindset. The richest people will be trillionaires in the next decade.

>>28860644
It can be traced by anyone. Equal Transparency is beneficial to all but criminals.

>>28861107
If it can be traced it can be taxed.

>>28861042
Decentralised money does not necessarily have to be digital crypto.
Your point about lack of trust is moot when you literally depend on the government to back the money that you use to circumvent the government.

>>28861093
The guy is completely convinced that rich people are perfect human beings because he think he will be one of them or is one of them, he is an ideologically motivated dimwit. No point in arguing mate.

>>28861174
Money can be many things. As a last resort Gold and Silver will always win.

>>28861090
>monkey brain bulllshit
History doesn’t lie. If you feel that way, then you could say the same about Christian morales. People tend to agree that cheating lying and stealing are wrong. Just like the value of gold. Remember this isn’t your world. While yes it’s a shiny rock. Your ignoring the historical importance.

>>28861093
>Better than most of the wealth being handed down to people who have done nothing their entire lives except win the lottery in where they were born.
There are like 100,000 people in America who fit that description and 99% of them are actually smarter, harder working, and better educated than you. There are 100,000,000 useless poorfags.
The reason wealth is getting concentrated is because we’ve erased all the evolutionary filters that would keep the genetic dead ends from growing like weeds.
Do you not understand? Have you seen what happens to poorfag lotto winners? They end up dead in like a year most of the time. It’s not about lack of means. They are defective. Bill Gates is right to be sterilizing them. It’s the only way forward. They cannot be rehabilitated. They cannot be made into productive members of a healthy society. They lack the brainpower to be anything more than beasts of burden and with advancements in technology their value is declining rapidly.

>>28861390
Christian morals are just jewish morals and jewish morals are aramaic morals. Why do you want to argue about stuff you barely have any grasp on? Morals are constantly shifting and our current set of morals is wildly differing from "christian" morality. In most of the western world adulterers do not get stoned to death as far as I can remember. Regardless, values are completely subjective and gold and silver are not the be all end all.

>>28855010
Depends on what they spend the borrowed money on.
19th century USA they spent it increasing productive capacity. Worked out great.
21st century USA spends it on oil, depreciating assets like cars and plastic crap from China. Trade deficit gets wider and wider.

>>28861589
sad but true

>>28860417
Why would I "trust" bitcoin will retain its value when I KNOW I can use PM to craft products that will always have value no matter what happens?

>>28861599
Fiat is the be all and end all. They be all over the place and end all up the same, dead.

>>28861589
Wealth is just locked behind inheritance and further hoarding. You're a retard.

>>28861810
Because in the case of Bitcoin you have an asset that has grown at 200% on average YoY and for Gold to reach its inherent value, it would have to lose about 95% of its actual value right now. I dont give a fuck about where you store your monetary power, but I wont store it in some make belief boomer token that will "always be valuable".

>>28861939
Bitcoin has not
>grown at 200% on average YoY
It was the Dollar falling -200% on average YoY

>>28860519
So Venezuela? Zimbabwe? How did that work out for them again? You people really live in that "I refuse to produce but I demand to consume" delusion and it's quite pathetic.

>>28862167
>"I refuse to produce but I demand to consume" delusion
First really intelligent post itt

>>28861264
still seething and without a counter argument
I know rich fags and I know poorfags. Every negative stereotype you have about the rich is actually a description of poorfags. It’s a common cope for losers who think that the economy is played like a zero sum game(it’s not) and that they only reason they lack resources is because others are hoarding them.
It’s the fundamental misunderstanding of economics that defines our age and infects essentially everyone who hasn’t delved seriously into the history of modern economies or economic policy.
I’m not sure why the elites like to spread this retarded gospel since it makes them out to be the villains in an unjust system but I suspect it’s kind of like a religious cult spun off from a secularized version of Puritanism that views all enjoyment as sin. The self flagellation is purely done in order to atone for these sins. They’ve never met a poorfag nor do they care to. They are just a symbol for the elite of a more pure version of man. Like Adam and Eve before they ate the apple and became self aware.
I guess for them, taxes and welfare are like the old system of Indulgences before the reformation. Americas Elites are hyper productive but also morally quite fucked up.

>>28861939
>inherent value
That's my point it has no "inherent value" I can't craft anything out of bitcoin to "sell"/trade as I can with PM and bitcoin can easily be replaced by literally anything, bloody seashells even lmao...

>>28860901
ID says gay checks out

>>28862407
The assumption here is that the seller would want to trade your "money". Money must be equally accepted for a trade to happen.

>>28861938
Lmao dude most billionaires these days are making a big deal about how their children are going to inherit nothing. They’re putting all that money into foundations and charities and giving it all away. Buffet, Gates, David Rubenstein, and many others.
You need to understand something. The economy is not a zero sum game. Total wealth is increasing, even to this day. The pie gets bigger and bigger. It doesn’t actually matter what % of the pie you get, just whether you get enough of the pie to live off of.
Think of it like this. If there was a guy who magically came into existence and was given so much wealthy that had 99.99999999% of the wealth(on paper) but he lived on the dark side of the moon, had no means of traveling to earth or spending any of that wealth, or interacting with you in any way, does that mean you just got poorer? No, you still have all the same assets you had before. The same amount of food is in your fridge. Just because someone else is rich doesn’t make you poor.

>>28862553
I'm not even talking about money really, obviously anything can be money, what I am saying is demand for the stuff I personally sell which I use PM to make have value no matter what "money" we are using, bitcoin does not have that property, I cannot create anything anyone wants out of bitcoin so it's no different than any other arbitrary currency

>>28861589
nice try bill go fuck yourself

>>28860423
>>28859783

You know, this is actually a good point. I live near a brazilian favela, and everything these poor people do with money (when they have it) is buying motorcycles, making barbecues for their entire family on every weekend, and other expensive shit that they could very well use to buy something actually valuable.
And there is no excuse for that, they are just retarded. There is even a channel on youtube called "Favelado Investidor" which is a guy from the favela that started investing and studied about it. He's been doing very well so far, reached 50k brazilian reais last week.

>>28861589
>>28861714
This path is a dead end and will not work out.
Just for giggles search "Universe 25" but remember that it has no application for humans.