/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>28464935
form a company and put into tax deductible assets, sell the assets for cash

Move or pay the tax
You're not going to be able to cash out to USD without the irs knowing

>>28464935
you can just leave the us and never come back retard...

> implying they'll make the taxes better in the future

hire a fucking financial advisor anon, pay them and get some knowledge or eat shit with taxes like the rest

>>28465254
This. 600k will last you a long time in an eastern european or asian shithole.

Can’t you just buy gold with Ethereum and go to a coin place and sell at spot ? You’ll eat the premium but that’s it.

>>28464935
Just cash out 50k a year at 0% capital gains rate. Otherwise, pay ~15% for the whole stack at once.

>>28464935
OR put it into a roth IRA, you can do that now for cryptocurrency appartently.

>>28465402
This. If you plan to cash out $600k worth of gains, it's worth hiring an expert to make sure you don't get fucked by Uncle Sam.

>>28464935
Just reported this thread to the IRS. Better start converting to xmr while you still have a chance. :^)

>>28464935
Did you create 600k in value? No? Well Uncle Sam wants his cut of your free money. No way around it other than converting to monero and sending it off, “losing your trezor in the woods” and keeping BTC in a cold storage wallet you can never back into usd into your bank and be haunted by the looming thoughts of an IRS audit at any time

>>28465474
It'd creep up towards 20% if he cashed *all* of it out in a single year.

>>28465362
You can't easily do normal finance in non-US countries as long as you have that citizenship. Thankfully I don't think he's hitting any of the requirements for the exit tax quite yet: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax

Buy 20 Tesla's with it.
And then sell them for cash.

where to buye IRS token??

>>28465825
Elon please go

>>28465223
This seems like a strategy for much larger amounts of money

>>28465362
>>28465458
>>28465254
I like the US for the most part except for shit like the government thinking it has some claim to the profit that I earned through risking my own finances for the past 5 years.

>>28465402
>>28465638
What can a financial advisor tell me that the collective genius of /biz/ can't? I know what the rates are for capital gains taxes already, and I already know how to factor in my losses.

>>28465472
I want useful things like a house or a car, things that need to be registered in the state. I know I could easily cash out at bitcoin atms and buy a bunch of gold in cash, but then I just have a bunch of fucking metal.

>>28465645
Cool, idc

>>28465662
I would sooner lose $600k than give the federal government $150k for free.

Move to puerto rico now. See you there.

It really bugs me that nigger broodmothers and Boeing automatically get 30% of my gains.

>>28465556
You can only contribute $6000 a year into one though.

>>28465662
>implying value creation is tax free
Lol. Fuck uncle s*m

>>28466792
What I’m saying is
>buy the gold directly from an online seller with crypto
>Go to a local precious metal buyer, sell and get cash. (yes they have a lot of cash on hand straight up like that)
But yeah then you’d just have a shit ton of cash

>>28464935
abandon citizenship and move to chile. There's no scape unless you are a multi millonaire

Never sell. If you need cash borrow against your stack. Loans are not taxable.

>>28464935
This thread OP >>28460180

>>28464935

Literally just get a loan out on the crypto for 75% of the value

I do it every year. about 400k worth. I then just pay off the loan with another bitcoin loan

>>28464935
loan it on one of the several sites that do fiat for custodial btc

>>28467971
This is the way.

>>28467971

Oh i forgot your bitcoin is only going to up overtime. But if it falls you might bebin a pickle.

Tho i have dine this consistently for 5 years and every loan is bigger than the last

>>28464935
Don't be greedy and accept you're gonna need to pay your tithe. Or just stay on permeant vacation.

>>28464935
don't work. then cash out crypto the following year under the poverty level, do that every year.

>>28468118

Not really fuck the tax jew. He never helped me when i was giving handjobs behind the taco bell dumpster.

Tax evasion is patriotic

>>28468119
this ive been doing this for 10 years now.

>>28468039

The best part is you can walk right into the bank and ask for the manager and he will do it right there. No need for sketchy 3rd party lenders. PNC takes bitcoin as collateral

>>28464935
In theory you could purchase precious metals, sell the precious metals on craigslist, then spend the cash on day to day expenses.

>>28465556
roth IRA has a 6k limit. Also roths are post-tax. You still need to pay taxes on whatever income/capital gains you make *BEFORE* putting something into a roth IRA. It's just that when you withdraw from the roth, you don't have to pay a dime of taxes

>>28464935
Honestly there's no real way to fully avoid paying taxes, short of moving to puerto rico, renouncing citizenship and moving abroad, etc. Even if you somehow cash out to fiat in a way that doesn't notify the IRS whatsoever, you'd still get totally fucked if anyone sees you living a high-class life in a nice house and cool car despite being a broke NEET on-paper with no income.

I would never recommend doing anything illegal, but I hear other people talk about minimizing taxes by going under-the-table on as much as they can. Only withdraw to fiat when absolutely necessary, keep other money as USDC and earn interest on that via blockfi or AAVE. Use a crypto-backed debit card for normal everyday purchases of things and spend your USDC that way. Only withdraw to fiat for things like buying a car or house - in other words, big ticket items that the IRS is going to get notified about anyway if you're paying up-front in cash. And you'll have to pay tax on that, but at least it wouldn't be as much that way.

Also withdrawing a little at a time. IIRC assuming no other income, you can withdraw like 45k or so per year without having to pay any capital gains. That's not exactly a lot, but on top of everything else, it's not a bad idea to take advantage of this fact.

>>28468076
you can seriously give them crypto as collateral? seems piss easy to get a loan then

>>28468076
Could just bankruptcy and tell them you lost all your crypto in a boating accident.

>>28468507
I like IRAs over 401ks, you have no clue what will happen with taxes in twenty years.

>>28468667
I agree. I always max out my roth IRA first. You're missing my point though. Roth IRAs don't avoid taxes like what OP is asking. You pay tax up-front. If you made 6k in capital gains on bitcoin and wanted to put that in a roth IRA, you'd still need to give the IRS jews their cut before putting it in the IRA.

>>28467971
That only works so long as the value keeps increasing up. If you take out a crypto loan during a bull run and then the price crashes 90% the next year, you're fucked.

>>28465474
that's not true. Every dollar is taxes. What do you mean 50k 0 capital gains tax

>>28468965
Assuming you have only a year to pay back. I loan against my 401k with 5 year terms and can pay it back while earning at least 2x-3x it in that time frame.

>>28468233
poverty level is at how much? 20k?

>>28465458

Like USA isn't a shithole.

>>28464935
lol you fool you cant cash out
the moment you transfer your crypto fake gains to bank you'll get audit and money evasion charges

>>28464935
Lets start with simple stuff. Do you have any crypto you got rugged on? That are worthless? That if you sold now you would show a loss?
Start there.
I keep a lot of dead or dying shitcoins to offset gains with losses. It won't completely knock the 600k to 0 but it's a start.
Secondly, have you considered not "cashing out" all in a single tax year? Long term Cap Gains are only 15-20% they're really not as bad as short term.

>>28464935
monero

>>28469274
the first tax bracket in long term capital gains tax is 0% just like the first tax bracket in the income tax.

>>28464935
I'm married my cap gains tax is zero

>>28469569
To elaborate, feel free to fudge the numbers a little bit. Last year I got rugged twice and I can show it if I was ever audited.
Maybe I adjusted the numbers a little more to make the loss worse, maybe I didn't. But the IRS doesn't give a shit cause it's pennies on the dollar.

>>28469778
>>28469274
And that's for long-term holding.

>>28464935
OP, you are 100% sure that you've invested and not touched dick from the moment they became coins? Moving from coin to coin is a taxable event.

>>28469778
the first tax bracket is $0 - $14,000.
If you cash out capital gains, this counts as ordinary income and therefore moves you to a different tax bracket. Am I wrong?

>>28470203
Long term is different than short.

>>28470203

>>28470203
That's only short term. Short term basically gets added to your income.

>>28470482
wow totally didn't know about that. cool.
how about state capital gain tax? Is it separate from that?

Ive got a 8 figure ETH portfolio. been holding for 4.5 years now. I bought as a poorfag with credit cards. I live in a no income tax state. and have not filed taxes...like ever. I'm self employed. Ive sold on local btc and local eth in 17 before it was KYC. no tax man issues.
In Feb I sold $2M of the ETH on CB . How much should I set aside? what do I do about not filing taxes before? I made about $30K a year from my shitty work. anything to be scared of? its not due till 2022 so Ive got time to prepare

>>28469905
>OP, you are 100% sure that you've invested and not touched dick from the moment they became coins? Moving from coin to coin is a taxable event.
nobody is actually doing that and they unironically never will

>>28470742
IRS might make you eat a late filing penalty or something on top of the taxes but talk to a real fucking accountant

get a loan against your crypto for more than you need. crypto goes up, get a new loan, pay off old loan, keep the remainder. loans are not income and not subject to tax.

>>28470352
>>28470482
How do they determine which is a short term gain and which is a long term gain?

>>28470644
Yes, though remember that some of your state income tax can be deducted federally (retarded AF). It varies by state, so be sure to look up your own state. The big thing that most people don't understand about crypto and taxes is that to get the long-term rate, you have to buy a coin and then literally do nothing with it for at least a year. Going to another coin counts as "cashing out." If it helps, think about each coin like an actual tangible good. Some goods appreciate in value, so if you then swap for a different good, you need to pay gains tax on the fair market value at the time you sell or swap. Your total profits for the year (So profits - losses) is what gets taxed short term. If you make losses above your profits, you can deduct up to 3k off of your taxes.

You also have to keep records of each transaction if you swap coins, which is worth knowing in a ETH/bull market. The last wrinkle is you can declare the order by which you are selling coins. So say you bought some BTC, then bought some more, then swapped a few for ETH. You could declare that you sold the last ones you bought for the eth, keeping some of the original BTC as a long-term trade and minimizing the profits you're realizing in that particular transaction.

What’s your income? You can always cash out in yearly installments of <40k to go tax free if you’re a NEET or low income.

>>28464935
>go to switzerland, cash it out using local exchanges, wire from swiss bank to us bank

am I missing something?

>>28470926
Ive got a appointment with a tax attorney specialist in march. its kinda nerve wrecking. friends tell me nothing to worry about.

can they trace me if i buy gold directly with crypto?

>>28471080
It's based on how long you've held it, I think 1 year makes it long

>>28469300
Checked. What platform are you using for these loans? Thinking about doing something similar this year.

If you ever wana cash out, just convert into usdt and throw it in celsius wallet. you would be able to hold dollars while earning 16.5%APY on them just by holding them in your wallet. you can then just withdraw cash whenever you need it.

>>28465825
You still have to pay taxes on the gains you made since buying BTC. You're basically buying a Tesla for 37k, and then you're paying capital gains on top of that.

>>28471080
If you hold the asset for over a year, it becomes a long-term gain. In crypto, that is an eternity. It's really important to understand that since most of us are trading, we actually have to pay taxes on our gains every year (or even quarterly if your gains get large enough that you'll owe over 1k of what you're estimated to) even if we never go back to fiat. You going from ADA to ETH = taxable event.

>>28470742
>>28470926
Yeah, talk to a tax professional about it. We're just schmucks. You will be charged interest by the IRS for late payments, but I don't have much more info than that. Nothing to be scared of if you're willing to do it clean and pay up.

>>28464935
Simple, you just use your crypto as collateral, buy the thing you want with that loan, then liquidate your crypto, boom, you just paid zero taxes.

>>28471213
i mean with crypto gains

>>28471236
Celcius has 1% apr

>>28464935
getblockcard.com start using it as a currency

>>28471104
This is only long-term holdings.

>>28471213
Not unless you get audited. Good luck doing much with your gold. It's not worth the stress of trying to evade taxes, but gold is a good investment.

>>28464935
Is the Crypto associated with any identifiying information?

If not form an LLC in some no / low tax 3rd world banking country, claim the btc as income for the company. Create an account in banking country , and retire in said country or some cheap place like vietnam or something.

since new tax law was implemented about crypto disclosure does that mean all you fuckos are going to report your monies to uncle sam on this years tax return?

>>28471259
And each time you withdraw cash, you technically owe the taxes on that withdrawal as it is a taxable event.

>>28471093
Thank you! Valuable information. Do you know how farming and airdrops are taxed?
I heard that on an airdrop you. pay tax as an ordinary income of the value at the time you got it. But if you hold and have gains on top of that, it's already a capital gains tax on sell value - value when you got the airdrop.

>>28471376
https://terniohelp.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/44000411370-what-are-the-fees-to-use-blockcard-
>Monthly Fee : $5.00
>PIN Transaction Fee (Domestic) : $1.00
>PIN Transaction Fee (Int’l) : $2.00
>ATM Cash Withdrawal Fee (Domestic) : $3.00

Wow, what a POS. Much better crypto cards out there. With cashback even.

>>28471442
Yeah, lost the maximum deductible in a bad monero trade.

>>28471662
They are taxable events upon retrieval, just like, say, lotto winnings would be. When they enter into your account, you pay taxes on it. When it leaves your account, you pay taxes on the profits.
>Recently, the IRS ruled that airdrops, along with promos and staking rewards, only become taxable once the taxpayer "acquires the ability to transfer, sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of the cryptocurrency." Airdropped currency not yet usable or accessible would therefore not be taxable until the taxpayer is able to exercise control over it.

>>28471213

I would imagine the gold dealer has to report large amounts of purchases.

>>28465223
That doesn't work, you have what's called recapture of depreciation. They're ahead of you on that one.

>>28471923
And most exchanges will also report profits over 20k a year. So if you have an account on coinmetro, they basically send the IRS a list of accounts who meet that criteria. That isn't to say the people with sub 20k don't owe taxes, it's more than the IRS is most interested in chasing big boi bux.

>>28471140
You still have to pay taxes on gains, if any amount over $10k combined shows up in your account for the entire year the bank sends a form to the IRS and they check your job status, tax records. If they don’t match the amount or you are unemployed you will be questioned and they will tax you what they think you owe even if that amount is higher than what you actually owe, just to make an example out of you. Some anon had a better idea, just find a bullion dealer to buy gold/silver from and keep it under a certain amount (they have to report it to the IRS too) and go from dealer to dealer locally

>>28468605
Yes. Its no different than a 401k. Just hand them a key to your wallet, sign a legal a agreement and off you go with whatever amount of cash it is you borrowed. It is still yours, you just refinance in 6 months.

Again some banks might not do this. And ALTcoin are probably no but Bitcoin..yes absolutely. Banks want them.

>>28471442
do you register all your guns too?

>>28471219
cool so just open an new account, wash the crypto with monero and sit on it for a year. If you treat it like a salary you could just cash out monero every year

>>28471891
ok which cryptocards do you recommend then? otherwise shut the fuck up you dont contribute to shit.

>>28471902
I still can't understand completely. I'll give an example with UNI tokens.
You get an airdrop of 400 UNI tokens last year, valued at $1200 at the time of airdrop.
Let's say you don't touch the coins and sell today at $20 each for $8000 total.
Do you owe short term capital gains tax on the $8000 or in other words only when you sell? Or do you owe ordinary income tax on the $1200 and short term capital gains tax on ($8000-$1200)?

>>28471299
>It's really important to understand that since most of us are trading, we actually have to pay taxes on our gains every year
yeah I’ll worry about that when I’m over 10k lol

can't you just put everything into tether and hold for a year to get discount capital gains?

>>28464935
simple. take out a defi loan on your gains anon. gl hf

>>28465254
>>28465458
does this actually work? i thought you had to renounce your us citizenship to avoid paying taxes even if you move and then you can never get it back.

>>28472254
https://www.cryptovantage.com/best-crypto-credit-cards/

Took me all of 2 seconds on google you absolute fucking faggot. Kys for being either a retard or a shill for a shit card company

>>28472269
You owe regular ol' taxes on the 1200, then you also owe the long-term gains taxes (assuming it was a full year when you said last year) on the profit (so 8000-1200 = taxed on 6800). Or the short term if it was within a year. Just consider them two different "events." The first event was a prize! Hooray! Pay the taxman. The second event was making a profit off of your property. Hooray! Pay the taxman.

>>28472319
This is pointless because you owe the taxes upon "cashing out" of whatever you were holding and into tether. Ever time you swap a coin, you owe taxes on it that year.

>>28472503
that would suck then if you get an airdrop and you just let it sit there and it goes to 0. You will owe tax on money you never even had lol.

>>28472269
whatever the price was the date when you claimed the UNI and added them to your eth wallet.
If you claim the UNI today they will be taxed at todays rates.

>>28468507
Withdrawing doesn't trigger a tax event, selling a coin does.
>Use a crypto-backed debit card for normal everyday purchases of things and spend your USDC that way
Still have to pay tax.

>>28472579
The loss would, in all but rare cases, result in you being able to deduct off of your taxes as a loss when you cash out.

>>28472422
isn't there an area of the US where you pay no tax at all? only the resources and stuff are a bit worse off because of the lack of public funding

Since my country demands 30% to 50% off the profit, I do everything with cash. Litterally everything. On paper I don't have any money. The things that I can't pay cash, I pay others to do it. Sometimes a small fee, but it's still based as fuck to live like this. Pay other people in cash to sign documents and pay them for me even. Depending on what I ask from them, I pay them a 5-10% fee in cash which is still alot less than I would pay for the taxes. Keep in mind I absolutely hate this country and it's government.

>carry a phone registered to someone else
>only use encryption apps to communicate
>IF you must own a vehicle, just buy a shitbox and pay someone else to sign your documents
>encrypt all files with veracrypt

I discovered there's always people with loads of cash willing to buy crypto, so you don't need exchanges to swap fiat to crypto and vice versa. Just buy a moner counter machine to check for fake currency

>>28472725
I wasn't talking about taxable events. I was talking about IRS notifications. Read it again

>Still have to pay tax.
Yeah, technically. But the likelihood of the IRS going after you for spending 0.000005 bitcoin to buy a pack of cigarettes at the gas station is pretty much nil.

>>28472463
>wirex visa
Your number one cryptocard on the list
>Not available in Japan, the United States, and some other major countries
I am in burgerland doesnt work. Read what you are gonna shill first bitch.
>Bitpay Mastercard
>Bitcoin support only
Stop wasting my time.

>>28472728
thats only a maximum of $3000

>>28472728
oh yea true

>>28472870
>Stop wasting my time.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Try reading more than a few words in a section and you might get somewhere in life, zoomie.

>>28472933
Well, yes and no. You can deduct up to 3k from your income taxes (and can push the rest to another year), but that's only if your capital gains are actually capital losses. So say you get taxed on the 1200 and then it sits there until you get .000000000000001 for it. You do have to pay the tax for the 1200, but you also get to basically subtract 1200 from your gains.

>>28471902
>the IRS even has celsius/staking FUD to steal your shekels.

They REALLY do not want us to make it.

>>28469569
>lose money on bad trades so you make less money that you have to pay 15% tax on
The more money you make the more money get, always, no matter the tax bracket.

>>28469569
>>28469830
that's just a few thousand per year, though, right?

>>28464935
Buy brand new tesla's with it and then sell the cars.

>>28473115
Yeah, but a lot of people have already had loses. So if you've had loses you can claim them and get deductions. But I think the flaw here is that I think it maxes out at a $3k deduction.

>>28473115
That wasn't what I said. I said if OP has lost money on shit trades and hasn't 'sold' the coins, he can do that now and show it as a capital loss.
I'm not saying to actively lose money. But nobody guesses right 100% of the time.
Right now in my wallet, I'm hanging onto losers like AceD, Chaingames, Uptrennd, etc and I won't sell them till I have a major profit to realize.

>>28472422
This. Its called FATCA. Or denounce your US citizenship.
>>28472846
I think Puerto Rico but you have to be a resident there for at least 6 months.
Or taxes are completely voluntary
https://lbry.tv/@alittlebitofeverything:2/aaron-russo's-documentary,--freedom-to-facism-:a
https://lbry.tv/@ChadChaddington:d/Income-Tax-Voluntary,-I-Call-IRS:8

>>28473047
Sorry not a zoomie. I am fuckin cryptorich though. fuckin seethe

>>28473217
That's a good way to lose money.
>Pay taxes on the gains from the BTC when you "sell" them to Tesla
>Pay taxes on the car, including needing to register it
>Sell at a slight loss and then get fucked again when you sell enough cars for the gubbment to ask why you aren't registered as a dealer

>>28473170
Losses are unlimited until they outweigh gains.
Then they are limited to $3000 a year but you can carry the rest over.

If you lose $10000, but make $5000, you claim a loss of $3000, and then capital loss carry over of $2000. So the following year if you do nothing you can claim a loss of $2000, if you sell things that reduces the $2000 till you're positive again.

>>28473250
Maxes out at $3k deduction per year. Not $3k total If you make $15000 in gains and lose $10000, you're only taxed on $5000 in gains.

If you're loses are higher than gains, they can be deduced up to $3k, then the rest are carried to the next tax year. >>28473355

>>28473250
Net losses. You pay capital gains on TOTAL PROFITS - TOTAL LOSSES for the year. If your gains is actually negative, then you can deduct 3k from your income taxes. Read >>28473262 Anon's posts to understand better. He has a pretty good idea.

>>28471295
Are you fucking kidding me? Fuck this country I'm out

>>28473470
america is unironically a humongous shit hole and every dollar we can deny funding it is an objective moral good

>>28464935
buy assload of gold with it and bury it so the IRS cant find it lol

>>28473470
It would be this way with any asset. It isn't just crypto. If you bought a miata NA and then in 10 years they actually get rare enough to be worth as much as a new Tesla, you'd be paying capital gains on that as well. If you buy a bunch of video games and then they become rare and you sell them all on ebay years later for profit, you owe capital gains on them.

>>28473355
>>28473444
I should also add, stock gains and crypto gains are considered the same thing as far as the IRS is concerned, so plan accordingly.
Make a ton of money on crypto and have some loser stocks? Sell them too, take the loss to reduce the taxed gains.
Got some major crypto rug pulls and wanna pull some money out of something like TSLA cause you're worried it's overinflated? Show a sale with the worthless tokens and sell some of the TSLA.

>>28473459 Gets it. Total Profit can be negative, and you can carry over anything more than $3k every year till it's wiped clean.

>>28471901
Would this actually work to offset gains?

>>28473444
>>28473355
damn that rules actually. So if I lost like $60k on some coin, and made $200k on the rest of my portfolio, I can just deduct $60k from my capital gains taxes?

What if I lose $100k in Y1, then in Y2 I make $400k? Can I use the $100k losses from Y1 to cancel out my capital gains taxes for Y2?

>>28473817
>What if I lose $100k in Y1, then in Y2 I make $400k? Can I use the $100k losses from Y1 to cancel out my capital gains taxes for Y2?
It would go like this:
Y1 you would deduct $3000 as a capital loss from your income taxes. You have a capital loss carryover of $97k
Y2, you would claim $400k gains minus $97k from the previous year, reducing your gains to $303k. You also deduct fees (yes including the insane gas fees, not that it would make as much of a dent in this large figure but every bit helps) made at the purchase and the sale/conversion to another crypto.

>>28473817
You would be taxed on $140k for the year. You cannot carry over losses except as what you are trying to deduct from your income taxes (and you can't combine years, though you can keep kicking the can as stated here >>28473355 ). Basically if you're going to carry over losses, you'd better not double up on your shitty years or redo your tax position so you are the type of situation which can declare and deduct additional losses (I think they have to see you as a trader for this? I'm less in the know about the exacts here. Basically though businesses can deduct more).

>>28474079
Sorry, I realize I misworded this post and it's misleading. Just listen to >>28474004 for the better explanation

I have a dumb question.
If I send ETH to an exchange from a metamask wallet and sell it immediately, and then use the money to buy a different coin, is that taxable even if the ETH was sold at the same price point it entered the exchange? IE no appreciation. Let's say it was some ETH that a family member gifted me.

>>28474004
That's awesome, thanks.

>>28471014
Can you get a loan off from stable coins?

>>28474425

Also, if I'm flipping shitcoins and sending the profits to exchanges to cash out, is someone tracking the activity in my metamask wallet? How would anyone know what's going on?

Find a service that will let you pay bills with crypto
Get out a loan
Pay the loan back using aforementioned service
Done

>>28474425
You sending ETH to yourself isn't a taxable event, though the fees are losses. If you buy the different coin, that's the event. If you immediately bought the ETH and then swapped it (so the ETH price didn't change at all on you), it's still a taxable event and you still have to list it, but you aren't paying any taxes on it either way since you were totally even.

>>28474699

checked
thanks for the info

>Hey 4chan how do I do (crime)
Never gonna make it.

>>28474425
Yes and you want to record it because you paid fees when you bought it and you paid gas when you changed it to a different coin.

Example: Eth is $1800
You buy 1 Eth. You pay $10 in fees from the exchange.
You transfer the Eth. You lose 0.005 Eth for the transfer (you can't directly deduct this but keep reading)
You use metamask to buy an alt and pay $100 in gas fees (keeping the math simple.

So when you log the transaction, you'll show that you bought 1 Eth for $1810, and you sold it for $1691. A loss of $119.

The only thing I scammed was the transfer fee, because it was $9 and the IRS isn't going to audit you for a fudge this small, but fuck them it adds up when you're messing with a lot of alts.

>>28474786
To simplify, and to keep using Eth cause it's what the majority of us use on Metamask.

When you record your buy, add the fees to your total spent.
When you sell, subtract the gas fees and other fees from the total amount of the altcoin you bought (in USD).
This will max the loss if it's an even trade, or help minimize your gains if you bought Eth a year ago and every trade is now considered a $1500 gain.

>>28474786

Thanks for the reply.

Can someone humor me with another example? My friend buys ETH on exchange A and sends it to his metamask wallet. He flips that ETH into a shitcoin and makes 7x. He then converts the shitcoin back to ETH on Uniswap and send it to Exchange B where it is sold immediately and the funds are used to purchase a different crypto. Could this ever be tracked by the jRS?

>>28475092
Nobody here is going to be able to give you a good answer beyond if you seem fishy enough, the IRS can and will audit you. Exchanges report gains over a certain amount (20k is the required minimum) and banks flag deposits which are out of the norm. It's not worth trying to evade your taxes, but whatever.

>>28464935
Buy sleeves of gold coins. I don’t know if the metal dealers report large transactions to the FEDs though. I presume they do. Does anyone know?

Fuck the IRS and the whole corrupt system. They are printing so much money none of us should have to pay tax. Idk why that wasn’t the “stimulus”.

>Hey guys no tax anymore well just keep hitting you with the hidden tax of inflation and giving money directly to the billionaires.

>>28464935
Change your residence to somewhere with fewer Jews.
Plenty of options with nicer weather and lower cost of living that don't tax capital gains, or tax them much less egregiously.
Use this Jewish whore of a country to accumulate. Then get the fuck out. Renounce your Zionism and sell.
If you don't renounce your Zionism they will still try and come after you (e.g. MacAfee).
But remember renouncing American Zionism is worse than being a baby raper in the eyes of ZOG. You aren't coming back.

>>28475251

I'm more-so just trying to get an idea about how closely this stuff is tracked, because it seems like the wild west, and I love it. Anyways, you answered my question, thanks. I'm small time nickle and dime in crypto so I have nothing to worry about right now. My main BTC stack is sitting on blockfi and I don't think it will ever touch fiat again.

>>28475092
The short answer is probably, so don't give them reason to look. Remember they are YEARS behind sometimes, and if they suspect you of something, they might not audit you until you barely remember what you did. Documenting everything protects you as much as it sucks to give them money.

The long answer is if $5000 leaves his bank account and goes to the exchange's address (which the IRS fully knows is a crypto exchange, routing numbers and what have you). Then a month or two later $35,000 goes into a different exchange, where he starts messing around there, he'll probably be ok until he wants money. Then when money starts flowing into his bank account from a different account (but still a well known crypto exchange) the bank will probably make note of it, especially if it's $10k or more.

If he doesn't report crypto gains on his taxes and the IRS comes looking for why, now you're already in trouble and have to fight your way out of it.

Don't try to outsmart them without a good accountant with audit insurance.

>>28464935
What do you guys think the minimum amount of cash I withdraw would the IRS not fuck with me? Say about 20,000?

>>28473711
Dont forget about the wash sale rule

>>28468310
Seems like a bad deal for the bank

>bank loans you 400k with crypto as collateral
>you buy 400k worth of gold coins with the lawn and 600k with the BTC

Lol I gambled the money away at the casinos and my wallet was on hard rice which got wiped.

>we don’t care pay us

Bankruptcy and have a million dollars in untraceable physical gold.

>>28475556

Thanks for the reply. I would never try to scam that much money in taxes without ironclad work-arounds, I catch the drift.

>>28475638
Withdraw from what? If you have $20k laying around in your bank account (fucking why?) then you can go withdraw it tomorrow long as the bank has the cash on hand.
Nobody gives a fuck about withdrawing.
If you mean pulling gains into your account, anything $10k or over is flagged by the bank.
This in and of itself isn't even a bad thing, it's just the bank making note that it happened.

>>28475638
Withdrawing cash isn't a taxable event so idk what the fuck you are talking about

>>28469810
>married my cap gains tax is zero

>>28464935
just dont cash out and buy shit with Bitcoin??????

>>28475744
That only applies to buying/selling identical securities, no?

>>28475811
In my experience, don't try to scam them at all. If you make it as a crypto player, you can afford an accountant, and he can afford to get you the best return he can get you without getting you fucked over.

>>28475950

Scam was the wrong word. I would only attempt a fully legal loophole. I mainly brought this up because I was curious how closely Uniswap transactions are monitored. It would appear not at all.

>>28475950
yes wash sale is the same security

>>28475950
Anon, I want to thank you for giving people so many good answers. /biz/ needs more of you.

>>28464935
based, fuck indirectly supporting niggers and fat fucks on disability. I'm doing the same OP.

>>28464935
You people gotta be retarded. Open an overseas account.

>>28476178
No problem. I just finished up my taxes for 2020 so all this shit is fresh in my head.

>>28476175
I thought so yea. My advice is more to have a sell on record even if it's a 0 liquidity pajeet pull. Selling even an empty position for $0 is worth more than having the dead weight sitting in your wallet. A sale has to happen for the IRS so consider a position closed.

>>28476175
The only cryptos which try to be securities (doing the same thing as them, anyways) are banned by the US, I believe. Crypto is seen as property.

You will have to pay.

>>28475854
My bad I meant cashing out

this is outside the iRS building. look at the hands.

>>28464935
Hire someone who does the taxes and pay them their fee whatever it ends up being. I did it for a laughable amount of crypto I was holding and years later it turned into a good chunk of real money. I didn't owe taxes but I am transparent. The minute I started withdrawing funds to my bank account I flagged in their system and it notified whoever wants to know. I even did my bank a courtesy and gave them a heads up. You're not going to escape and the harder you squirm the more likely an audit is going to touch you in your no no places. If you can put on big boy pants and gamble your way to riches you can pay the man his protection racket money.

>>28475423
IRS is literally "the department of terrorizing people for fake money"

>>28469402
yeah for me its 18k might vary for your country

>>28477096
>Oy vey intensifies

>>28477096
This was constructed with taxpayers money

>>28473262
Could you not just create a taxable event of losses by swapping it for a different coin and swapping it right back?

Just pay your taxes or cash out the minimum amount and let it ride. Either way, pay your taxes. Just the relief alone of not having to worry is worth it.

>>28475876
Exactly, in a few years tops you won't even want to have shit fiat currency anyways.

>>28477402
Only if you ate fees, defeating the point.

>>28477554
Just let someone extort you?

Planning on reporting my trades (all losses because I'm a retard) this year for the last couple of years. Fell for the whole crypto is only taxed when you cash out meme. Tracking down my old trades is damn near impossible because of the exchanges going down.Recent trades wont be a problem, have all those to report. Is it going to be a problem that I cant find a bunch of trades where I turned like $1000 into $100 three years ago? Im dead certain at years end I was in the red so I didn't owe anything but knowing that had I held these coins would be worth a lot is what has me worried. I know most of you will just say reporting sub 10k is laughable, but I'm trying to do things right.

>>28477402
You can, but why would I want to continue to hold those bags of shit?
I hang onto them till December just in case a miracle happens and they do something.
Also the second you swap back, you've created a new starting point.

>>28470352

Is up to $40,000 all income, or literally just selling assets?

So if your salary is 45k, you're stuck at the 15% rate for capital gains?

>>28477721
This one I don't know. I'm assuming you can report previous year loses, but it'll look weird you have no documentation at all (even just an etherscan transaction would be good)
But you're right in that sub $10k they're not going to give a shit.

>>28467897
i just learned about this in another thread and it changed my life

>>28477753
Correct.

>>28467971
how do you pay off the loan with another bitcoin loan? do you keep borrowing against your btc stack?

IRS got fucked by Microsoft. They aren't as powerful as they once were. Big corps are unironically going to help push crypto and everyone is going to end up being untaxable.

>>28464935
Buy drugs and distribute them for profit and no tax

>>28477842
I don't even have transactions ids or anything. Just buy-ins on coinbase and then sent to Bittrex to trade to basically 0. Bittrex has locked my old account and wont respond to anything so I cant pull any history.

this is the first useful thread i have seen on /biz/ since 2013

>>28464935
1. they can't know it's a capital gains, so don't put it in capital gains bracket
2. put it in a salary bracket, somebody paid you with crypto for 15 years, it will be the low 12% bracket
if they see something fishy, so what? they can never prove it's capital gains. they will be happy your reported it at all.

t. jewish person

>>28478442
We've had a handful of good tax threads recently. I'm shocked at how little most of /biz/ knows about basic shit, like even how tax brackets work.

>>28478484
>they will be happy your reported it at all.
This is the golden rule, really. It's rare they audit someone whos actively showing them information.

>1. they can't know it's a capital gains, so don't put it in capital gains bracket
>2. put it in a salary bracket, somebody paid you with crypto for 15 years, it will be the low 12% bracket
This I'm genuinely interested in and am going to look into it.

>>28472073
If its depreciation on something like a rental property you only have to pay on the depreciation if you sell. If its a quality passive income generating asset (tho not 100% passive really as there are repairs maintenance renovations but these are all write offs with no cap) why the fuck would you want to get rid of it

>>28469778
Yeah that’s if you don’t have a sub poverty level income outside of your investments, fuck-stick.

>have 100k worth of btc
>takout loan against 75% value of btc stack
>throw that 75k right back into more btc
>btc goes up 20%
>payed the bank 1k a month to make 15k
>rinse repeat
is this really some free money hack?

>>28467685
you still get taxed when u buy shit with crypto.You then pay taxes when u sell gold for cash.
YOU ARE DOUBLE CASHING.

>>28477185
the amount of people in this thread with this "youre gonna have to pay" attitude tells me that this board has feds on it, and the feds know the IRS is toothless, and can barely do shit. so you better pay or else they'll get you like al capone and wesley snipes!!!! YOULL NEVER ESCAPE!

>>28466873
U need to live there for 10 years first

>>28473284
i remember watching that movie when i was a kid with my dad, back before pbs was fully cucked, my first true redpill

>>28477721
they aren't coming for you. do the best you can and relax.

>>28478188
No, bro, you gotta pay, sorry, people in this thread said it, so you gotta pay. IRS is all knowing.

>put everything into monero
>contact finance attorney
>hire them
>say you have no transaction history but you have a significant sum of monies
>they cover you
>cash out
>they'll handle your filing for you
>if you get audited and the IRS tries to harass you the lawyer intervenes
>lawyer tells them you will not talk to them without immunity
>IRS either fucks off and leaves you alone, closing your case, or they agree to give you immunity and maybe try to give you a small fine which your lawyer will negotiate down

There is really nothing to be afraid of here.

>>28478442
>>28478598
cringe

>>28468507
Is it possible to withdraw $45k per year without the IRS knowing ? So if I convert $600k into USDC and slowly withdraw , over a period of 13 years, it doesn't trigger tax audit ?

>>28464935
Just pay the taxes and get the IRS off your back forever. No ammount of money is worth having the IRS hounding you.

>>28464935
Either downt work and cash out 40k per year tax free

Or take a loan on yr crypto tax free and never sell

Or pay an attorney to make a company for u in the caymans

Or pay to make a trust

All completely legal

>>28478898
I'll be blunt. I give advice on how to work with the IRS because I personally am not smart enough, nor clever enough, to duck them. I also don't want the headache. That being said I will absolutely fudge numbers in my favor, especially now with the gas fees going crazy.

I don't think "they're coming to get me!", I'm actually willing to bet if I got audited they'd end up owing me money before I owed them.
The point is to keep the the fuck out of my business in the first place and yea, that means sometimes paying them.

>>28478788
>>28460180

>>28464935
Don’t sell ever, just borrow against your crypto

>>28464935
If I had 600k gold in Runescape, I would first make sure the devs never have my KYC info, if at any point I gave out kyc info and they have my runescape wallet tied with kyc info, I’m fucked and eventually the devs will catch me.
Even if I used XMRgold, the onus is on me to prove I “lost” my gold or got scammed.
If I never used a kyc onramp, I am free to transfer my Runescape gold to Minecraft where the devs aren’t so cucked

>>28479129
>>28478898
They will come after you if not on the FED level, then on the STATE level... remeber you have to pay the state too. If you owe both, they will crack the hmmer. For Christ sake, the Crypto question is at the godamn top of the 1040 !

>>28464935
start an online blog with a patreon or something, put a link up that you accept monero for donatiokns. convert all your crypto to monero. Pay yourself monthly via monero. Just write about whatever, hobby, crypto, doesn't matter. slowly increase your monero payments to yourself through the blog until you have a nice yearly income. Now you claim it as income rather than capital gains, and get taxed much lower.

>>28468177
based

>>28479154
You’re dreaming. The IRS will subpoena your crypto brokerage records that show you bought X crypto, then withdrew it to monero. You’ll be presumed to still have it unless you can prove that you spent it or lost it. No, “I lost the keys” probably will not work unless your jury is stupid. Then you’ll owe the tax on X crypto, appreciated to whatever is current value, plus fees and interest, and maybe a charge for trading fraud if they’re feeling sporty. Your lawyer will take his feel and recommend that you take a plea.

>>28479504
Holy fuck i thought you were kidding about the 1040 thing, fuck the IRS fuck them so much. They have such a hard on for collecting crypto taxes. This likely means they're going to be targeting people with gains specifically. Really not looking forward to getting audited by these cocksuckers.

>>28479504
>>28467811
>>28477185
>>28468118
>pay or die
>1 post by this ID

>>28479648
>t. has never dealt with the IRS
Retard. I have been audited. The IRS cannot do anything to you if you have legal representation unless you were smuggling drug money or stealing from a company and they can prove it. People file bankruptcy and get audited every single day, hiding thousands of dollars in assets, hiding vehicles they own. You know what happens when they have an attorney on their side? Nothing. They pay a fine and have to close some credit cards.
The government isn't going to audit you in depth over fake money transactions, and there is literally no scare tactic on earth they can employ which would compel your legal council to take any kind of a plea deal. You literally say "whoops, don't have it" and your lawyer says they have to accept that as an answer, and they accept it. You pay taxes on the sum you cash out. Thats it.

>>28464935
International banks in the Bahamas will accept Bitcoin fren.

>>28479788
how many audits do you think they do in a year? do your best to be the most honest and if it comes back you still owe money, pay it. they are slimier than they are militant. you'll get a letter before anyone is banging on your door seizing your computer anon. well, for now.

Money laundaring is the only way.

>>28474786
seems like a whole lot of trouble for several transactions. What happens when someone has a cryptobot that does lets say 200 transactions in a day?

>>28479154
how do you have no transaction history? when you convert to monero is that the deadend?

>>28480077
If they send you a letter that you owe money, it is perfectly in your right to send them a letter back with hundreds of printouts of etherscan and saying "no you don't."
If they escalate then you get a tax lawyer. Never directly talk to them.,

>>28479129
The IRS is underfunded, understaffed, and are too busy figuring out how to tackle microsoft to deal with smallfry.

>>28479788
This will be my first year doing this.... we are going to see what happens, i am hoping to give a report...

>>28479957
I dont know Anon, I have been witness to some bullshit audits.

>>28479822
I'm still here fugger

>>28478894
And were just talking sales tax. Capital gain tax isnt even paid while transacting gold for crypto. When Irs will find it out, OP will be fucked.

>>28480276
No idea, I never used one of those.

>>28464935
Pay up goyim

>>28464935
Do not tempt God's punishment. Pay your taxes.

>>28464935

Roll it over to stocks while paying ltcgt on the principal

https://stocktwits.com/symbol/CLF

>>28474786
good for you if being meticulous helps you sleep at night, but anon you don't have to fall for the every transaction is a taxable event meme. just give the jew your money.

>>28480502
But by falling for it I pay less taxes.

>>28478607
>This is the golden rule, really. It's rare they audit someone whos actively showing them information.

is there any data to back this up?

>>28480276
I've got that. VERY problematic. Account says you can sum it up ( like pile everything together using "Various" under dates of buy and sell) and i have an AnonBro who did this a few years ago ( those on manual trades). I am CYA , and hire a company to tally my trades onto the IRS Form 8949. Fore safety I had over 20000 trades. Crashed excel a few times on me.

>>28464935
Liquidate 40k per year, dont work. Claim that 40k is your gains from investments, thus untaxed, as you have no other gainful emoloymemt.

>>28468177
>He never helped me when i was giving handjobs behind the taco bell dumpster.
kek

>>28480317
I feel it is the reverse.... IRS going after Big Anything will tie the fuck out of the limited resources. They can ALWAYS go after small fry, scare the shit out of them, tie small fry up in legal fees they cant afford and get SOME money out of someone.

>>28480305
Monero uses stealth addresses for transactions so the chain can't be followed like Bitcoin, ETH, or any other Defi coin.
https://web.getmonero.org/resources/moneropedia/stealthaddress.html

>>28480321
I work as a general contractor and have been audited over building materials and how they factor into loss/profits for a job. Its common for builders to have their history combed through.
Only people who commit actual financial crimes get the book thrown at them. As far as anyone knows or can reasonably prove you're just an autist who didn't know any better and had no malicious intent.
You have no detailed transaction history because no Dex saved it for you.
You lost your original wallet's password and seed phrase.
The anxiety of market swings was hard for you to deal with along with your autism.
As a matter of fact you spilled coke on your PC while watching anime and you don't have the PC you used to trade on anymore either.
Its all just a sob story of a poor boy who did nothing wrong and got rich.

>>28480358
That’s because this wasn’t explained correctly. The gold route IS a viable route to lowering your taxes. You can’t get to zero, but you CAN get lower. If you haven’t been hodling your crypto for over a year, then when you realize your crypto gains by selling at the peak you will have to pay short-term capital gains tax (I.e. income tax around 35%).

BUT you can use your crypto instead to buy gold in a Gold IRA. THIS IS A NON TAXABLE TRANSACTION. But only if you purchase the retirement account directly with your crypto.

Then you hold that gold for two years and sell it. At that point, you’ll pay the long term capital gains tax (around 20%). While this method doesn’t give you immediate access to gains, consider this example: if you have $1,000,000 in profits this saves you about $150,000 in profits that don’t go to Uncle Sam.

You only go this route if you purchased your crypto within a year of selling. If you’ve held the crypto for over a year, you already only have to pay the long term capital gains tax. But using this method, you can “cash out” at the peak for whatever shitcoin you have and store that peak value in gold. Because I can guarantee you that $200,000 of gold today will be worth more in two years than $200,000 of most pajeet pump-n-dumps that are at their price floor two years from now.

>>28476049
Based. Tax collectors itt. Trying to force is to cough it up.

>>28480803
An audit is not a court case, there are no mounting legal fees, there aren't multiple hearings.
The IRS tells you you're getting audited and they think they already have a case against you. They'll want you to submit records, something you don't have to do unless your legal council okays it. Everything is handled by the lawyers. They in not so few words tell the IRS to fuck off, and unless you actually did something massively illegal with a paper trail, they will.

Bankruptcy and tax attorneys deal with this shit routinely. You're not a married guy who is divorcing his wife and signing over property to his ex to try and stop the IRS from seizing assets. You're not someone who pierced the corporate veil and used company funds to pay off his personal debt unlawfully. The retards who who fear monger over the IRS have probably never filed taxes in their lives.

>>28480831
>>28481230

You are now my Senpai.

I was entertaining the thought of having the Crypto Day Trading be part of "my biz" and utilize as much of my spending as the deductions against my Capital Gains....

>>28479788
They dont have enough manpower to audit everyone. They go after whales. Probably using scripts to follow blockchain transactions but the deeper issue is that the entire slavery finacial system is threatened. They will do what they can but they know theyre fucked

>>28478898
The whole point is avoiding the potential headache. Just how much is that bit extra worth when you have to play games with it? Sure you could use bitcoin atms and local swapping and pay cash for some things but nothing really tangible. If you're clever enough to make enough to cross into taxable income territory it's just a cost of doing business. If you're working and crossing the income barrier before you even trade you're already doing great so boohoo. If no one wants to play by the rules the fed can and will break everyone's tulip gambling without sweating.

>>28479590
Like that idea akshuwally

>>28481648
Pretty much this is how I look at it.

>>28481230
Yeah, fearmongering is retarded, but a lot of Anons here don't even understand they are liable for taxes even if they don't go back to fiat.

>>28467421
just put in 6000 for 100 years

>>28481648
> If you're working and crossing the income barrier before you even trade you're already doing great so boohoo

you cross the "income barrier" working at mcdonalds. what are you talking about?

>>28479259
wrong , there is a certain peak where you legal team will out money the best irs team's budget.
https://www.propublica.org/article/ultrawealthy-taxes-irs-internal-revenue-service-global-high-wealth-audits

>>28481692

it's retarded though because you only get taxed lower on income if you're making almost no money

>>28467897
What do you mean? Take out a loan and pay back from your stack? Won't that still incur a capital gains tax or do you write it off in taxes?

>>28481884
What? Everyone goes through the same tax brackets, Anon. Your first X amount of income gets taxed at the lower amounts until you hit the next bracket and so on.

Taxation is theft.

>>28481809
For long term it's easy to escape. For short term gains people should be paying taxes. Volatility traders are just another gambler after all.

>>28481989

long term capital gains are always cheaper than income. if you earn under 40k (gains + income), your long term capital gains are zero. from 40k to ~400k, long term capital gains are 15% and income tax is at least 22%

>>28482165

my point is that unless you're earning almost nothing, you're crossing the "income barrier". not everyone who earns enough to pay income tax is "doing great"

>>28464935
Build generational wealth. Don't raise spoiled brats that will squander your gains.

Don't be selfish OP, there are people that need that tax money...

>>28473683

>>28466792
Its 90k yah mong

15% for first 500k per year

>>28467897
Can you explain this?

>>28477096

They know

>>28464935
Convert to monero. Sell on localmonero for cash. Easy peasy.

>>28478598
fuck your tax brackets. I am not obligated to know that shit and be a low tier tax accountant. I will hire the best jew to jew the IRS if I intended to file. Do you realize that this pandemic has affected people’s lives on a financial scale? I rather not file taxes and not get that stimulus.

>>28465458
You got to stop thinking of Eastern Europe as it is portrayed in Eurotrip. Most of those countries are max. 20 percent cheaper compared to Western Europe. Unfortunately, these aren't the 90s anymore. Some exceptions are Ukraine or Bosnia but there you'll risk being kidnapped and having your organs harvested lol.

Hyptothetical from a non burger who doesn't know shit about tax law, am I allowed to draw up a contract with another person to agree to sell crypto to them at below market rate, thus not making a profit? Say I tell someone I'll sell them my entire portfolio for 50c and secure documents recording the agreement, is that legal? Alternatively, would it be legal to sell somebody x amount of coins for 1c less than what I paid for it?

>>28486881
I lived off 300 usd a month in lepitsk Russia
Most of the smaller towns are like this.
The only place people pay a equivalent to American prices is moscow or leningrad

You can invest some money into opportunity zones, whereby the taxes are deferred, and if you keep them in there for 10 years i think, then the taxes become 0%.

>>28469905
Yeah I'd like to see them try to audit my DeFi swaps lmao. Not happening.

>>28482072
Pretty much this
>>28473284

>>28464935
ITT: IRS looking to close loopholes

>>28487175
hahaha exactly. Try to subpeona a DEX, good luck with that.