/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>25367121
Taxation is "theft" by the government so you don't end up with anarchy, where the strong/powerful just shank you on the street and steal your shit.

It's a necessary evil.

Taxes = services
Your nearest hospital and college won't pay themselves alone

cause it 's only 95% theft. 5% goes to things we need. 95% goes to hooker and blow for mitch and frens

I don't, I just think in opportunity cost.

Because with zero taxes society wouldn't have progressed to the point where you make enough money worth taking.

>>25367121
wages are theft

Because antisemitism

>>25367159
What country do you live in? US taxes only go toward blowing up your country.

Normies get mad you didn't just blindly swallow public school taught dogmas like them and are actually willing to consider looking at things in a radical way when we obviously have radical systemic problems. Ancap is too much for people to digest when they just want to go along to get along. There is a social cost to diverging too much from mainstream thinking, even if mainstream thinking is intellectually vapid and morally bankrupt.

They would respond to it like a man repeatedly shouting "conductor we have a problem", even if it were on a passenger train about to go off a cliff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mko5Y8QUEjI

but government is where the strong and powerful hide the threat of shanking you behind several layers of bureaucracy

tax evasion is theft

>>25367159
what services? I get nothing from the government as a wage slave

>>25367214
>>25367150
>>25367159
There's no reason tax can't be opt-in. If taxes were actually being used effectively most people, especially wealthy people, would willingly pay for the upkeep of their communities. But because taxes are squandered and stolen through corruption and gibs, they have to be taken by force.

>>25367287
>especially wealthy people, would willingly pay for the upkeep of their communities.
Lol

>>25367121
You don't. Death to tyrants, 1776

>>25367150
How did we get by pre-1913 without income tax then? The IRS just spawned one day and demanded we pay all these retard bullshit taxes out of nowhere.

If you have some basic military and law enforcement paid for by some marginal tax, that should be enough. All these additional retard capital gains, income tax, inheritance tax etc etc is all legit designed to farm wealth away from you.

>>25367343
You really don't think wealthy people want clean running water, decent roads, and the police force protecting their property?

taxes be too damn high

>>25367485
They want everyone else to pay for those things and actively lobby for this to happen.

>>25367485
Of course they want those things, they just want the working class to pay for it

>>25367159
>college won't pay themselves alone
They should, they must be subject to market pressures like anyone else.

>hospitals
HOSPITALS ARE PRIVATE COMPANIES

>>25367121
go back to /pol/ retard

>>25367159
>>25367485
The private sector can allocate resources more efficiently than the government. Taxation is theft.

>>25367377
in 1913 we had actual men in society that could defend themselves and their communities. in 2020 we have retarded catboy tranny faggots instead. we're not going back to a pre-tax era. kys

>>25367159
those hospitals and colleges in israel wont pay themselves

>>25367577
>>25367562
Doesn't matter what they want. In this opt-in system the working class is no longer obligated to pay for those things, and they stand to lose the most without them.

>>25367121
Because in a non fake and gay society, your tax money would go to services that would benefit you to an extent that you would otherwise not get by yourself; not bailing out failed companies because of muh employment rate.

>>25367121
I get paid with tax dollars, please keep paying your bills, thanks so much!

>>25367121
you have the great benefit of living in a modern society yet you wish to be a leech and not contribute to its well-being
pathetic

>>25367635
The private sector is particularly bad at certain things. There's no profit in maintaining rural roadways for example. There's no profit in regulations that protect your drinking water, either.

>>25367121
The root of modern society's woes was the effective abolition of tariffs thanks to free trade. In the US's case, things like income and corporate tax dramatically escalated right after the end of WW2 when tariffs began to be removed.

Taxation is oppression. So become part of the ruling class and get your accountant to help you evade taxes as much as possible. The animal condition is oppression, the weak are consumed by the strong.

>>25367755
>The root of modern society's woes was giving women the vote
FTFY

>>25367841
>the root of society's woes is democracy
Slaves like you shouldn't even be given the delusion of control over human destiny.

>>25367746
>Pay $40k in taxes
>Use $3k worth of government services while Congress sends my money to Pakistan for gender studies programs

>>25367883
That's unironically true

>>25367150

Then why is it illegal for me to carry a gun or a knife to protect myself from the migrant hordes that go around shanking and robbing people? Imported with my tax money, by the governments here in the EU.

You sound super delusional. Wake up and smell the coffee already. You are talking about white ethnostates that no longer exist.

>>25367150
>where you get shanked on the street and get your shit stolen
Like now?

>>25367150
>where the strong/powerful just shank you on the street and steal your shit.
I have a gun

>>25367287

It's the other way around bud. The power to steal without consequences attracts the worst criminals imaginable. Taxation is the idea that you can rob people into prosperity by forcing them to be successful.

It is an idea only the worst losers in society can live with.

>>25367121
The only thing I can honestly think of is the military. I see the negative effects of living in a no state income tax state (TN). The roads are shit, there aren't enough police, the schools are shit, etc. When I lived in NY it was literally the opposite.

In terms of federal gov't obviously I'm paying for the military which is a big deal, but is it 10-37% of all income big deal? I fucking doubt it.

>>25367121
Because otherwise men with guns will come to your house, kick the door down and take you to prison.

>>25367646

Taxes are the cause of trannies, not the other way around. Read up on the fall of the roman empire and the weimar republic. Both were rife with hedonism, money printing, homos and transsexuals.

If you want men to be men, let them compete. Redistribution of wealth is for faggots and women.

>>25367121
Taxation in itself isn't theft but the current people that spend tax money are thieves

>>25367978
In fairness at least we're getting shanked on the street and our stuff stolen by poor people that are ngmi. Sure am glad those ebil rich men aren't taking advantage of me, I'd much rather get stabbed by obnoxious <THIS IS A MESSAGE FROM THE EUROPEAN CYBER ANTI-HATE MONITORING GROUP: A WORD REFERRING TO A MINORITY RACE WAS DETECTED IN YOUR COMMENT. REFRAIN FROM ALL FURTHER DISPARAGING OF AND RACIST COMMENTS TOWARDS UNDERREPRESENTED RACIAL GROUPS - FINAL WARNING> teenagers.

>>25367121
So we don’t get thrown in jail or killed.

>>25368119

Oh okay so we can just not pay taxes then?

>don't have children that use the school system
>Nothing but toll roads for miles around
>never called police and never will
It's some bullshit. Literally, the only things I use are garbage and sewer, but I have to pay for fat women to babysit fat fucks' low IQ kids and roads I never use and highwaymen who hide to ambush you and your take your money.

>>25367343
wealthy people pay massive premiums to live in upperclass areas, where they're surrounded by other wealthy people
i'd be willing to bet that you're mistaken if you think that most wealthy people wouldn't rather pay less to live in self-governing enclaves run by like-minded, success-focused people

>>25367121
The concept of taxes isn't theft, although in certain cases they might amount to such. Property taxes and poll taxes could be argued to be theft, or extortion more accurately. But income tax and sales tax could be justified as being in the case class as an administrative fee, assuming you're using fiat for the transaction.

>>25367159
>Taxes = services
>Your nearest hospital and college won't pay themselves alone
Why am I not paying McDonalds tax? Why do I only have to pay for McDonalds when I buy food?

>>25368292

So if I don't use fiat, I should not have to pay taxes? Extortion, robbery and money printing are all forms of the removal of either tangible or intangible goods, and therefore by definition theft. I do not consent to using fiat. I do not consent to having my income stolen. I do not consent to immigration.

>>25368231
>I don't use government services
Doesn't matter if you don't use the roads, as you still really on them for movement of goods
Doesn't matter if you don't call the police, because you still live in a relatively lawful country as a result of the police service.
Doesn't matter if you don't have kids because you still rely on a societal system where people are educated sufficiently to perform their roles that you rely on.

The only way you can legitimately claim you don't use any form of taxpayer funded services is to live in a cabin in the woods and hunt and grow your own food.

>>25368392
>So if I don't use fiat, I should not have to pay taxes?
That was essentially my thoughts yes. Why are you sperging out about it?

>>25368392
>he thinks consent matters
truth is that the people with the guns get to make the rules. If you don't like it, get bigger guns.

>I don't use gubbermint services!!!
>orders shit off amazon
kek

>>25367121
Taxation is theft and I don’t pretend it isn’t.

>>25367269
Exactly, so many of my normie friends deep in college debt and literally live paycheck to paycheck. I bit the bullet and literally got off of work and went to graduation right after work, and invested my money right and now I have to get new friends because envy will always exist. What do you think the next college debt scam will be so the government can keep making money to keep going? They'll have to whip up something. Maybe pay off the debt and trick the next generation into the same scam with even higher debt?

>>25368440
>>25368439

We are talking about definitions here. Theft is the removal of property without consent. Your feelings are irrelevant.

>>25368558
if the government didn't tax you 'without consent', then society would collapse into anarchy and you would get robbed by some bandits without muh consent. now kys

>>25367883
Property owning father of 4 that produces real work is weighted the same as a crack smoking nigger

>>25367714
It does, because the rich control the laws with lobbying. You are living in a fantasy world.

>>25368558
But I'm not arguing with you. Taxation is obviously theft. My point is, whining about it doesn't help you. What are you gonna do about it?

>>25368412
You think a lot like Jeff Bezos, gotta give the cattl- I mean workers good food stamp benefits to keep them healthy productive workers. Remember Jeff practically doubled amazons money in 2020, they give stimulus checks out to help people, it's to keep the current power dynamic going. It's just funny seeing all the retards get happy over 1200$ while in reality it hurts them and inflation is a tax where you can literally tax people that have 0$ and own nothing, and to be honest they deserve to keep this power dynamic going if they can keep tricking people like they are, it's just being more intelligent.

>>25367121
Hi Anon, I know you like to talk with your friends on the 4channel, but can you please delete this post its a little anti-semitic and its honestly making me feel a little uncomfortable.

>>25368447
>pays for order and shipping to get package

>>25368558
I never mentioned my feelings. My argument was income tax and sales tax could be argued to be consensual as you're performing a transaction using fiat currency, where taxation is a known part of the equation. On the other hand I believe property tax could be classified as extortion (theft is still technically incorrect until the money is forcibly removed from you).

You're the one who's being misled by feelings here.

>>25368622
If you work you are basically a nigger. You are part of the peasant class.

>>25368183
Change the people collecting and spending the taxes if you don't think they are being used well. The government workers are supposed to be wiser when dealing with money (more than the average person). This is not the case, we don't live in a utopia

>>25368678
>>25368607

Oh I'm filthy rich and I barely pay any taxes, but it's a time consuming hassle to avoid them. The idea that I need to get robbed to protect me from robbery is laughable. But I'm not allowed to defend myself from criminals hahaha. Leftists are so dumb, I'm glad they keep inflicting suffering onto each other. They deserve it.

>>25368724
The shipping doesn't cover the cost of building and maintaining the roads used to transport your package to you, the law enforcement that prevents the truck begging hijacked, and the education of the Amazon workers that allowed them to be at least semi-literate enough sort parcels. Your taxes pay for that part.

>>25367121
coordination error

>>25368734

Why do people use fiat? Because you are forced to pay taxes in it. Saying things is not an argument. You need to have a logical explanation behind it. Saying the earth is flat because milk goes sour is a coherent sentence but also not an argument.

>>25367121
State taxes are fine as long as they are used reasonable (protip they aren’t). (((Federal))) taxes are of course unnecessary for a government that prints its own money.

>>25368783
Legitimately rich people don't get this emotionally stirred up by things that we all know are just part and parcel of reality, anon.

>>25368764
This is a niggerbrain-tier response if I have ever seen one. So you’re saying that a CFO for a hedge fund pulling in millions a year is a nigger because he works? Kill yourself faggot

>>25368766

The government always consists of losers who can't perform in the free market. They are a collection of the dumbest, greediest human waste out there. Without a government related job they would simply not survive.

>>25368860
>So you’re saying that a CFO for a hedge fund pulling in millions a year is a nigger because he works?
Yes I'm saying exactly that. If you're like Elon and don't actually work but just shitpost on twitter and have sex all day but are technically CEO that's fine.

>>25368392

It’s not theft, you’re criticizing the basis of sovereignty from a different set of principles, which is like redefining gravity to create inconsistency in Newtonian physics. The US federal government derives its sovereignty from “the people”, an abstract principle akin to “God” behind the throne of a Christian monarchy. The people are held to have vested political authority in the constitutional government, and the people themselves don’t directly rule but are merely the basis of state sovereignty. “The people” exist in the sense that they can make themselves known through revolutionary or constitutional changes, so that they still reserve the right to reappropriate political power, but they have conferred it to the constitutional government as a going affair. You can disagree with that in the same way you can disagree with the authority of a king, but you are only a single person who is below the power of the law. Only the people as a unity have authority over the state, only they can actually judge the constitutional government to be insufficient. Consent regarding taxation doesn’t matter, the sovereign authority (the unity of the people) created the law. Either you pass a constitutional amendment to remove federal authority to tax income, or you start a revolution. Everything else is basically just complaining that you ddidnt consent to a traffic ticket, your consent isn’t required. You aren’t the king of America.

>>25368764
Niggers don't work though...neither to Jews. it's the working spirit of whites that allowed us to build civilization. It's the Jews (you) who leech off of our success and try to subvert and destroy everything we've built.

>>25368851

I'm trying to teach you poorfags about life, so that the few pearls in the pigshit might drag themselves out of the pit. When you dodge taxes you should feel proud that you outsmarted thieves instead of feeling guilty for not "contributing" to Israel's next stimulus check.

>>25368920
I'm not jewish I'm 100% pure bred Anglo-Saxon.

The average black person contributes a negative amount, someone has to make up the difference

>>25368020
Fine, shoot you in the back of the head. Point still stands.

>>25368917

If you wouldn't use violence I would not pay taxes. You are a common thief.

>>25368829
>Why do people use fiat? Because you are forced to pay taxes in it.
Uhm, no. Fiat has become the defacto method of exchange due to convenience. It's a lot easier for an employer to pay employees in fiat than in bullion or drums of oil, and a lot easier for other to pay for his and services with it.

Just because you don't understand what I'm saying doesn't mean there's not a point to it. The point is you personally are not forced by anyone to use fiat, you do so consensually, therefore you're not in much of a position to complain the taxation part of the transaction is theft beer your engaging in it consensually with the knowledge that you're going to be taxed.

>>25368978
On the streets irl I don't let anyone get within 30 feet of me. You just gotta watch out for predators.

>>25368989

Bruh are you seriously arguing the world did not have an economy before nixon got rid of the gold standard in the 70's?

>>25368942
I already use tax avoidance where possible, but I don't feel the need to sperg out that "tax is theft" either. It reeks of emotional immaturity and I've never met a rich person that actually thinks this way. Tax is just another part of life to deal with.

>>25367121
Taxation is to pay for the system of laws and their enforcement
Without taxes there cannot be wealth

>>25368783
yeah ok larping zoomer.

>>25368900
Based and neetpilled

>>25369021
No, obviously not. I think my posts suggested the exact opposite if anything. It's English your second language or something?

>>25368960
Just as some Jews have a white spirit (e.g. Bobby Fisher), some whites have a Jewish spirit.

>>25369055

For you maybe. I just want people to stop trying to interfere with my life and business. I'm just going to take your emotional nonsense as a concession.

>>25368764
The working man is the only one who should have any political power.

>>25369083

But you understand gold and silver are not fiat right? And that before 1913 no income tax existed outside of times of war?

>>25367159
>>25367150
Sell signal

>>25368980

You are acting like a baby, the state has the authority to collect taxes. You just disagreeing with that authority is inconsequential to its legitimacy, anymore than a child disagreeing with the authority of a parent over their bed time.

>>25369123
But I'm not conceding obviously. I don't think you've understood a single thing I've said and I don't believe for a second you're actually wealthy in the slightest based on your level of incoherent thought.

>>25369206

I don't care how many of you niggers there are, I'm not giving you my stuff.

>>25369145
Yes (second part only correct in US, but fine). What's your point?

>>25369227
You'll end up in prison. They just got McAfee for tax evasion in fucking Spain of all places.

>>25369227

>>25369211

Keep wallowing in your delusions as your life falls apart around you then. I don't care.

>>25369269
Thanks for confirming my assumptions about you.

>>25369258
>>25369259

Oh noooo here come the internet tough guys to seize my assets with violence like common africans. Fuck off thirld world mutts. You're not getting my money.

>>25369296

Stay poor nigger. Go on the news and complain about the economy. It's funny to me.

>>25369146
Come and take it. I'll see you on the news when you're killed by the police.

>>25367287
It could be. Just switch to crowd funding instead. Look at all the retarded shit that manages to get funded. Just put Belle Delphine as the face of it or something.

>>25369328
>Sperging like a child over failing to understand nuances in opinion
Please keep digging

>>25368412
Bruh - get real - a lot of tax money is wasted on frivolous shit. People in my country are already losing there shit over the thought the might have to work and not collect tons. I’ll say in once loud and Clear anons - people are selfish and greedy - knowing this puts you in steed your compete with these scum

>>25369300
I don't want your money anon. I'm just telling you the truth. You sound delusional and you're obviously under 18.

>>25368865
Applying for a government job is a free market too right? Or am i being naive

>>25369369

You smoothbrains can only solve problems with violence. That's why you think you can create paradise, if only you use enough force. Meanwhile we, your superiors, simply don't participate in your nonsense system as we are not affected by it.

Americans are brainwashed beyond salvation by their elites

Dang that's sad.

Without taxes you would have never accessed public education, if u were born an impoverished labourer you would die an impoverished labourer.

Look at modern society, you are priced out of all quality assets. Labourers can't even afford a place to live, takes them 20 years of wages lmao.

Now imagine the same minus any of sort of public network, no free public roads, literally can't leave your shit town without paying the toll there would be gated wealthy only communities you can't go to.
No public school so if your parents are idiots it doesn't matter how smart and hard working you are unless you receive some sort of education as a kid you're Waaaaay behind your peers I don't expect you fucking retards to understand this since you're trying to make a case in the first place, but if u have a speech impediment as a kid and it's not addressed early on, you will never be able to overcome it, your speech will forever be behind, you will Always stutter and struggle to string your sentences.
All you needed was 600 dollars worth of therapy at 4 years old, but what 4 year old has 600 dollars to pay for it?
You would have to rely on your parents. Robbing you of a fair go forever.

>>25369390

The fact that you can't differentiate between factual definitions and opinions tells me you will never escape your serfdom.

>>25369451

Most Americans aren’t so retarded as to think of taxes as “theft”. At most they just don’t like how it is spent and how much is taken from them, which is reasonable given a lot of it just goes to inflated government contracts for military equipment and other garbage meant to line pockets.

>>25369420

What goods and services do the government sell? None. They have no customers who can walk away, so there is no reason to improve. For a company, the customer is king. For a government, it's the upper echelons. Governments enrich themselves at the expense of working people. Even the lowest public servant deems himself of a higher standing than the common citizenry.

>>25369399
>a lot of tax money is wasted on frivolous shit
Of course, that was never is dispute. Doesn't negate my point though. I avoid taxes because it's in my self interest, that's just send interest. What I don't do is whine about taxation being theft or how I don't use any tax funded services be because:
>It's a cope because paying tax upsets you
>It's not true, if you live in a nation you benefit from government sevices indirectly, even if not directly
>If you actually have any kind of real investments or a business and you don't make use of taxpayer funded services or schemes directly then you're incompetent and wouldn't last 5 minutes in the corporate world

>>25369450
>Meanwhile we, your superiors, simply don't participate in your nonsense system as we are not affected by it.
Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.

>>25369451

Hahah look at this dumb Communist. America had the best schools in the world before public schools became a thing. It was the land of opportunity, where a poor man could rich and a rich man could get poor in one generation depending on how smart they were with their money. Under the current system it only matters who you know and how many subsidies you can access.

Look at Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi. How did they get hundreds of millions of dollars on a government salary? Pay for play. Joe biden is a wanted criminal in Ukraine for this very reason.

>>25369481
Taxation is theft literally isn't a factual definition. You can't make up your own definitions for already clearly defined terms. Also everytime you make a claim like
>Serfdom
Based purely on the fact you're upset that I disagree with you, and you don't have any other argument makes you look pathetic and reeks of projection.

>>25368231
HONK HONK

>>25369676

Lel ok nerd, here is a literal copy paste from a dictionary

Theft is defined as the physical removal of an object that is capable of being stolen without the consent of the owner and with the intention of depriving the owner of it permanently. The thief need not intend to keep the property himself; an intention to destroy it, sell it, or abandon it in circumstances where it will not be found is sufficient. Automobile theft, for example, frequently involves selling the stolen car or its parts. In some instances an intention to deprive the owner of the property temporarily also is sufficient, as in the case of stealing a car for a “joyride” and then abandoning it in such a way that the owner is able to reclaim it.

Unless you want to argue that money isn't property, you a delusional. Either way you niggers are not getting my money. Thanks for the free services though.

>>25369526
Yes. Basically they're thought process is:
>I don't like paying tax
>I want to avoid tax
>Tax dollars are used inefficiently and on things I don't like
>I pay me in taxes than I get in return
All of which are completely legitimate and most likely true, but instead of being about to communicate this effectively it just becomes
>TAX = THEFT!
Which automatically outs them as smoothbrains

>>25369451
Imagine needing school in order to learn things.

>>25369661
this is not any different than roman times. not making excuses. just pointing out that it has been this way forever.

>>25369819

So if someone takes your money at gunpoint, it's not theft? What is it then?

>>25367121
We pretend it isn't theft because there's nothing we can do about it. The government has greater authority through violence than you do, so you are a servant to their whims.

>>25369526
taxes literally are theft. any other interpretation is mental gymnastics

>>25367121
You don't have to. The IRS doesn't care if you call them thieves. They just care that you pay them.

>>25369791
>>25369791
>ok nerd
This is the battlecry of a brainlet when they're flailing in an argument
>dictionary definition
And this is always one of the last grasps at trying to recover. Anon, it literally says
>physical removal of an object
So when you go to a store, buy something and pay on a card, which includes pushing the sales tax, what physical object is being forcibly removed from your possession?

>>25367150

>>25369880
Extortion

>>25369880
That's obviously theft. Go read back on my posts if show me where I indicated I wouldn't consider this theft since you seem to think I don't.

>>25369923

Ah so you think digital things don't exist? How are we talking then? A dollar in your bank account is as real as one in your hands.

>>25369965
Although technically this: >>25369946
Which is why I said previously that property tax or poll taxes could be considered extortion.

>>25369965

Ok, so if I don't pay taxes, men with guns come take my money anyway. But this is not stealing? Or extortion or whatever negative term you want to use.

>>25367121
Capitalism is the worst system except for all the other systems.
And, what are you going to do about it?

>>25367150
What we have now is anarcho tyranny. It is anarchy by our own fucked up government. You are delusional as fuck. Someone that honestly believes the way you do will be one of the first to die when shtf. You will look to others to help you, to government, and then you will be disappointed, and then you will be murdered. lol.

>>25369987
>Ah so you think digital things don't exist?
No, obviously I don't think that. Are you sure English is your first language, anon? I'm just using the definition you decided to work off which defines theft as the removal of a physical object. Putting that aside, even if you pay cash at the store how isit theft when you're voluntarily paying the sales tax (albeit begrudginly) no one is physically removing the dollar notes from you. You're literally handing them over. That doesn't meet the criteria for theft.

>>25370043
>capitalism
>taxes
no

>>25367121
Because its the only thing keeping our currency valuable

>>25367214
Production must always come before predation. That alone shows that you are fucking wrong, and a retarded gorilla nigger. You don't even know what a society is. You don't even know what real money is. Very sad. Many such cases. I think the retardation is inoperable.

>>25370035
But I literally never said this, because unlike yourself I'm capable of nuanced opinion. I already said various forms of taxation could be considered extortion. But sales tax and income tax where you pay at point of transaction cannot.

>>25370086
A Republic.
A Military.
Yes.

>>25367343
They would
t. Currently staying in a guarded condo block in Philippines in a rich neighbourhood
The streets outside are also condo property and I'm sure the police (on literally every street corner) are funded by the condo companies
Also the best road in Manila is a toll road. This is all because the actual government is ineffective and corrupt

>>25369898

No, it is the legal right of the government to collect taxes. You’re either making a moral argument that you feel like it’s theft, or you’re making a criticism in terms of political philosophy that the state doesn’t have the legal authority to collect taxes. It has that authority, both in terms of the logical system underlying the principle of constitutional government and the practical reality that it clearly has that authority. The only sense in which it is comprehensible to call taxes “theft” here is in that moral sense, which is basically just feckless complaining that again, isn’t much different from a child complaining about their parent’s authority. Socially their authority is recognized, and the principle of their authority over their children is fully consistent with scenarios where their rules make the child upset.

>>25370074

I just pay the price if I find it acceptable. Sales taxes come from the profits of the seller and the producer. I just don't buy things if I find them overpriced.

But I like your example. Say you pay 20% income tax. Why should you work for free for 1/5th of your time? It's your labor and your body. How is this not slavery with extra steps? Just because it's free range slavery?

>>25370134

Oh yes, we also have the very reasonable options of not being born and not working.

>>25370200

Ah so if a GROUP of people steals shit at gunpoint it's not stealing. Or is it the magical uniform that removes the theft?

>>25370229
The fact you feel you have no option but to pay tax does not make the next you choose to pay it regardless qualify bas theft. Have to agree with the other anon that this is sounding more and more like surly children complaining about their parents rules not being fair.

>>25370074
If you want to get to that level of autism then sales tax is also extortion because businesses have to hand over a percentage of their sales to the state or else state agents will come and shut down the business and seize assets. Extortion is considered a form of theft. What you're describing as theft is more like robbery (which is another form of theft). Robbery is another form of theft but with the threat of immediate physical threat.

>>25370208
>>25370229
>>25370260
You benefit from society. You are posting on 4chan... and all the infrastructure required, etc. etc.
Don't like it?
Leave.
Want to change it?
Try.
Want to forcefully overthrow it?
Try. You will get put down.
Easy lol.

>>25370343
>threat of immediate physical harm*
I mean that sounded retarded.

>>25370260

It’s the principle behind the whole world system of law. It developed over millennia, the American state has recognized sovereignty according to the legal principles that have developed in western civilization that have consumed the entire global system. You are just some guy on an image board claiming that sovereignty is illegitimate, which really makes you the one who is being absurd. Your small anxiety isn’t more significant than the whole historical development of government and law that resulted in the world you were born into.

>>25370208
>I just pay the price if I find it acceptable.
So you effectively agree to pay the sales tax, so you're conceding that sales tax is not theft.
>But I like your example. Say you pay 20% income tax. Why should you work for free for 1/5th of your time?
>Irrelevant to the discussion over whether taxation qualifies as theft.
>It's your labor and your body. How is this not slavery with extra steps? Just because it's free range slavery?
Again irrelevant. You seem to be confusing "theft" which has a specific definition with "shit I don't like". In which case in future it would help your argument if you just called it that. This is similar to with the RIAA and MPAA updated to call copyright infringement "stealing" it's not and neither is taxation. Slavery isn't theft either, btw. You seem to also think I'm somehow pro-taxation, despite me never having said anything that inferred this. I think this because you have issues separating emotions from logic in your thought processes. Which you might want to think about in future.

>>25370345
The argument is whether it's theft or not, not whether you can do something about it. Like for example if you're a helpless weakling and I just hold you down and rape you, but then throw you a Big Mac. So technically you benefited from the rape, and you're a helpless weakling so you couldn't do anything about it, but it was still rape right?

>>25370289
>>25370345

I pay like 0.6% taxes lol. Still more than you guys in actual numbers, but nothing I really notice. I don't really feel the need to change it as the current system basically treats me like royalty. I just dislike it when stupid people muddle up obvious scenarios. If someone removes your property without your consent, that's stealing. The rest are just smoothbrain lawyerspeak justifications for why it is necessary or even a good thing. The sooner you just accept that governments are evil, everything they do fails and that contributing as little as possible to such a system is good for the soul, the better your chances are you will make enough money to change lives.

That's what I do at least. I help the deserving poor instead of Israeli terrorists. If you want to be responsible for the mass murders in the middle east by consenting to fund the bombs used, be my guest. The enriched uranium rounds used in Iraq have genetically ruined most of the population there. It will take centuries for them to begin recovering.

>>25370423

You niggers can hoot and holler all you want, you are not getting my money.

>>25370343
>If you want to get to that level of autism then sales tax is also extortion because businesses have to hand over a percentage of their sales to the state
Again incorrect as the tax is collected at the point of sale and clearly defined as such. So it's not being taken from the business as a percentage of their sales, because that income is defined separately. If the business was to withhold that money from the government then it will be more accurate to claim they were committing fraud against you for claiming you were paying sales tax when in fact they were keeping it for themselves.

>>25370455

Maybe you're right. Let me rephrase my viewpoint. Taxation is evil and anti-productive.

>>25370541
Please stop this embarrassing larp. It's not helping your argument.

>>25370593
Great. Maybe start with this next time instead of "taxation is theft". It makes you look a lot less stupid.

>>25370579

The budget of the customer doesn't change magically so the difference must come from the profits.

Fortunately for you, we don't live in a "might is right" society. We live in a nation of laws.
Semantics don't matter if you won't do shit about it.
That's life in the Western world, pal.

>>25367121
Im happy to pay taxes if it means the police and military keep the marauders at bay, I’m happy to pay taxes if it means poor people and the chronically ill get medical care, I’m happy to pay taxes if it means that there’s infrastructure and a reason to do anything other than try to survive.

>>25370638
For you:
>>25370496

>>25370635
Indirectly which is irrelevant again. The sales tax is clearly defined at point of sale. The business is simply collecting a tax on behalf of the government, not paying a tax directly themselves (obviously they pay taxes on profits, separately, but that's not sales tax).

>>25370579
You don't see how that's an arbitrary distinction? That's why you can state the price of things as "sales tax included" because at the end of the day the selling price is not a fixed thing. I own a business and whatever my selling price is for an item is, the government will extort 6% of it, and I have to log into this thing and give the 6% of my sales. Whether I tell the customer this percentage is for the government in the end doesn't change anything.

>>25370642
What about if niggers are alot to burn the country down and wage an anti-white iconoclasm for 6 months, nobody gets health care, and the government shuts down the economy without giving citizens proper stimulus? Is that theft?

>>25370603

You really should get an accountant if you think I am LARPing because chances are you are paying waaaay too much. There are plenty of barely taxed investments you can get into in any nation. Though I am in Europe and I understand it's much harder in the USA unless you run a business.

We have no capital gains tax here, and we pay no dividend taxes on most stocks. Instead we must pay a fraction of our liquid funds valuation on the 1st of january. So if you lock up your funds, you don't pay much.

>>25370696
>The business is simply collecting a tax on behalf of the government, not paying a tax directly themselves (obviously they pay taxes on profits, separately, but that's not sales tax).

I'm not voluntarily doing that. I'm being extorted for 6% so I tell the customer, hey this 6% is for the government, it's not my fault

>>25367747
>he said without a shred of proof
Is there a need for X?
then there is profit to be made form it.
No shut up and drink the piss of the government employees that are literally living off your labor.

>>25370707
>You don't see how that's an arbitrary distinction?
It's not at all arbitrary when you're discussing whether or not it constitutes theft. Obviously the sales tax becomes part of the equation for pricing the product but that doesn't make sales tax a theft to the business because the money paid in sales tax never becomes the business's property. You steal something from someone when they never own it to begin with.

Every possible service, including policing, military protection, infrastructure building, regulation, jurisprudence and law making should be done and provided voluntarily, meaning in the free market.
If you dont agree go back to your cuckshed

>>25370642

The iraq war alone cost 6 trillion dollars. Why is the us even trying to establish greater israel to begin with?

>>25370836

What did the government do to create those goods and services? Why should they get a cut?

>>25370781
What's your point? The customer is paying it so defacto consents so it's not stealing. Doesn't matter if you do it voluntarily or not because the sales tax is never yours to begin with, so it can't be considered stealing from you.

>>25370893

Lel you sound like you're circumcised. "The tip of your dick always belonged to Israel, it was never yours so it isn't genital mutilation "

>>25370892
Well that question is irrelevant to whether it's stealing or not but the answer is maintaining the road network for the conduit of goods and materials required to make to products, and the education of the employees to a level where they're useful to the employer in the manufacturing of the product or provision of the service. To give just two obvious examples.

>>25370804
This is why libertarians are retarded. They're incapable of nuanced thoughts.

>>25370953
Is that the best argument you have? Should I consider that your concession that you've run out of rebuttals?

>>25370893
>The customer is paying it so defacto consents so it's not stealing.
The customer can't choose not to pay the sales tax, if he wants to buy something he has no choice but to deal with the theft. If a quadruple amputee needs to buy something, but gets his eyebrows plucked every time, eventually he's just going to have to bear getting his eyebrows plucked to get what he needs whether he consents or not. Just because you're powerless to stop it doesn't mean you consent.

>>25370995

Consent implies you are being given a choice. If you drug a woman and put your wee wee in her, you can't say that's not rape because you didn't give her a choice to say no thanks.

Though I do avoid sales taxes too when possible. "Business expenses" are a great way to just not pay that 20% bullshit.

>>25367150
>Taxation is "theft" by the government so you don't end up with anarchy, where the strong/powerful just shank you on the street and steal your shit.
There was hardly any tax in the 1800s and it was not an anarchy. In fact, with low tax, you get stability, because when men are forced to responsibly provide for themselves and their families, you get a community of sturdy people. Men who can provide for themselves tend better at defending themselves, too, so by lowering taxation, you get less "shanking."

As with all forms of centralization, taxation is just a lever that allows a small group to control a disproportionately larger group. The government should provide only what cannot be provided by individuals organizing among themselves in order to produce the strongest, freest people.

>>25370972
We had roads before and infrastructure before we had income tax.
We had education before we had income tax.

>>25371043
>The customer can't choose not to pay the sales tax
Yeah, so if he wants to buy it he must consent to the sales tax. If he doesn't consent then he doesn't have to buy it. As I said at the beginning this hinges on using fiat for the transaction. If it was a barter that would be a different scenario. It's no different from when you pay a transaction fee on binance. Doesn't matter if you like it or not, you're consenting to pay it by going through with the transaction and it's therefore not theft.

>>25371043

You’re practically making the communist argument that people don’t consent to the institution of wage labor, so even if they “consent” to employment it isn’t REAL consent because they have no choice. Under any normal definition of consent, you consent to the sales tax by agreeing to the price. You just disagree with sales taxes, which is different from being criminally extorted.

>>25371079
>Consent implies you are being given a choice.
Which you are. Buy the item and pay the tax or don't buy the item.

>>25371096

The hilarity of it all is the very reason we all speak English. England had almost no taxes and people worked around 180 days a year. In the rest of the time they improved stuff and built churches, until they were so wealthy it evolved into the great British empire. So people here are using the very language that proves they are wrong to argue for taxation.

>>25371133

Oh yeah dude just be naked and don't eat.

>>25371128
What's your point? You asked what the current government did as their part in the provision of the product/service and I have you the correct answer. Just because you could have a scenario where they don't do that doesn't make that less true in this instance.

>>25371157

Ah yes, like how the slaves were given the choice to either work or die. Point taken anon.

>>25370893
I guess you can't understand how whether the customer is paying for it or I'm paying for it is the same thing. For sake of argument let's say the sales tax was increased to 50% Now something I that was 10.06 after tax is now $15 after tax. The law of supply of demand doesn't care, what portion of that money is going to the government, it will reduce the demand for that item because the customer won't magically have more money they will want to spend on that thing. The price tag is $15 now, it costed me a hit in demand, and if I don't want the hit in demand, I have to reduce MY share of the revenue down to $5 so the customer still gets the $10 price tag. I have no choice in the matter because no matter what I do, the government can audit my sales records and take their 50% cut from me. The price is not a fixed thing. I seriously think this is over your head.

>>25371191
No-one is obliged to make it easy for you not to pay tax just because you don't like it. Doesn't make it theft. Do you trust how much you sound like a whiny kid complaining about their parents house rules?

>>25371191

Lol this is literally the communist argument:

>>25371140

>>25371200

How did America benefit from the iraq war? The total debt before that was some 3 trillion and it was 9 trillion after. Why should we pay taxes again? How much does a road cost?

>>25371224
No I understand that perfectly like I already inferred. But you don't understand how the practicalities of sales tax and the reality of how its defined and collected are seperate from each other. Obviously sales tax cuts into business owners profit but that's not relevant to the concept of theft.

>>25371251
I never said America benefited from the iraq war, or that you should pay taxes. Why are you so emotional?

Enforced taxation is, literally by definition, slavery.
The only legitimate cope is calling it partial slavery, ie 40% tax is 40% slavery.
What % of slavery are you okay with?

>>25371238
Yeah, it's like word for word out of the communist textbook. Which is hilarious. These are the same people that would argue that you have the choice not to work for minimum wage but when told you have the choice not to pay sales tax by not purchasing their answer is just "yeah but that's really difficult man"

>>25371238

The difference is that if you don't eat, you die from starvation. There is no one going to shoot you dead if you don't eat. If you don't pay taxes force will be used against you by another human. A lot of people on earth don't have jobs and live off subsistence farming.

Nobody forces you to become a lawyer or programmer. You needed a function of some kind to survive regardless of outside intervention. Taxation is just people leaching on other people's work under threat .

>>25371312

You claim that taxes were somehow used to the benefit of the producer or the seller, but instead it was used to kill families.

>>25371200
The infrastructure used to transport goods existed before we had income tax, as did the education system. All of this stuff can be built without taxes and a good deal of it, such as the railroads and a lot of Public libraries, were built privately.

>>25371348
>Confiscate an arbitrary percentage of the product of an individual's labor, whether or not they consent
You realise this is the recent save argument for why capitalism is slavery right? Which I don't agree with either btw

>>25371382
>The difference is that if you don't eat, you die from starvation. There is no one going to shoot you dead if you don't eat.
So you finally agree sales tax isn't theft since no-one takes money from you y force? You have to agree to make a purchase, which you can always refuse.

>>25367377
This is the only answer that matters, income tax is immoral and unnecessary. checked

>>25371415
>You claim that taxes were somehow used to the benefit of the producer or the seller.
Yes, in the specific scenario relevant to the question you asked. Obviously the iraq war didn't contribute to the provision of the product, which is why I never said that. What's your point?

>>25371507

It steals from the store and the factory. How are you not getting this? People get arrested every day for ignoring sales taxes and selling stuff for straight cash.

german here
all my crypto is tax free
sucks to be you

>>25371443
Yes, but that wasn't the question. What's your you point? Do I need to recap. The exchange went like this:

>What did the government do to create those goods and services? Why should they get a cut?
>They did these things
>Yeah but other people did those things before
Irrelevant. The question was what they did now.

>>25371547

Out of the 24 trillion national debt, 22.5 trillion is over wars for israel. How then can you justify that the government has a claim to fund infrastructure? Clearly the main purpose of taxation is funds to kill people with.

>>25371558
It doesn't steal from the store or the factory, as they never pay sales tax. The fact sales tax impacts on their bottom line is irrelevant. You seem to be confusing "stealing" with "I don't like this".

>>25371602
>How then can you justify that the government has a claim to fund infrastructure?
Well I never did. I just answered your question on what the government contribution was to the provision of that good/service.

>>25367787
>get your accountant to help you evade taxes as much as possible
Will they actually tell me how to do it? I would think they could get in trouble.

>>25371627

Ok so if I impose a 100% labor tax on your employer for giving you the privilege of allowing you to work for him, the money is never yours so this is not stealing? Or at what percentage does it become not stealing?

>>25367269
C--- We--- Lem--- Or--- Ha---

>>25371675
What? No, that's the whole point of having an accountant. You can minimise your taxes hugely and perfectly legally. Which is what these idiots should be doing instead of whining about tax being theft.

>>25371675

Haha accountants are all scumbags that make money on the difference between how much you save by using them vs not using them. If they only cost you money, why bother.

>>25367121
There are two ways to solve the problem of a violent world
One, is bloodshed and installing a new regime

>>25371703
If you agree to work under those terms then no it's not stealing obviously.

>>25371294
> But you don't understand how the practicalities of sales tax and the reality of how its defined and collected are seperate from each other.

I do. Like I said, I own a business whether you believe me or not. A brick and mortar business. The fact of how it works is the customer pays me the money for a thing, and then in batches the whole thing gets deposited into the business bank account, and then at threat of future violence (aka extortion, a form of theft) I have to give them 6%. The fact that you say "it's separate, it was never yours to begin with" is identical to a mafia taking a cut and saying "That was never yours, you just collected it for us". It is under the threat of future force. aka extortion, aka theft. It's not even a requirement to put the sales tax separately. I can say something is $10 flat. All that matters is that I pay 6% of that. Because they money is coming from me at the end of the day.

>>25371140
>You’re practically making the communist argument that people don’t consent to the institution of wage labor, so even if they “consent” to employment it isn’t REAL consent because they have no choice.
You can choose not to work, nobody will jail you for begging or living a subsistence lifestyle, but they will jail you for not paying the taxes on the income you made from begging or the taxes on the property you're subsisting off of.

>>25371743

It doesn't matter whether you agree or not, your consent doesn't matter for taxes. If a law is imposed previous agreements are null and void.

>>25371294
The problem is you think theft is identical to robbery. When both extortion and robbery are forms of theft, the only difference being the immediateness of the threat of physical harm.

>>25371777
The fact is when the customer pays that 6% he's paying it as sales tax which you are obliged to collect on behalf of the government. That money is never yours to begin with. The fact you run a shoddy bookkeeping system or an unprofitable business doesn't change that fact. No-one is stealing from you.

>>25371382

That was about sales taxes specifically, which are just included in the price of a purchase. Nobody is going to shoot you for a sales tax, you either pay it or don’t get the product.

But as for this:
> Nobody forces you to become a lawyer or programmer. You needed a function of some kind to survive regardless of outside intervention.

The specific form of the function is objectionable to some. Wage labor is still a social institution, it’s a socially agreed upon method of producing and distributing goods. Sales taxes are just a socially agreed upon means of raising money for state spending.

>>25371591
The people who built the infrastructure before them were able to make do with charging tolls to use roads. Why should the government be expected to get a cut of the price in addition to the various fees and tolls already paid to use the roads and trains the government built?

>>25371834
No, you've missed the point again. Sales tax cannot be considered theft from the business as the tax is paid by the customer to the government with the business as an intermediary. And again the fact the existence of sales tax means you cannot charge as much for your products isn't relevant.

>>25371865

The store owner gets robbed. The tax agencies have entire gestapos just for figuring out whether stores are avoiding sales taxes.

>>25367121
Because the alternative would be a libertarian society where people actually have to be responsible for themselves. And they're too fucking pathetic to handle that

>>25371788
Then your scenario doesn't work. Try again.

>>25371899

Involuntary removal of property

>>25371852
>which you are obliged to collect on behalf of the government.

And why's that?

>>25368974
someone post the graph

>>25371932
Ironically avoiding sales tax is actually stealing as you're taking money from the customer under the auspice of it being sales tax for the government but instead keeping it. Like if I gave you $50 and told you to give it to your mother but instead you kept it.

>>25371899
>Sales tax cannot be considered theft from the business as the tax is paid by the customer to the government with the business as an intermediary.

What if I don't agree with being an intermediary?

>>25371966
Who's property is being removed?

>>25371949

See, this kind of obnoxious behavior is why we just used to kill thieves and jews. You are a thief. I don't care about your justification so long as you die painfully. The state are just a bunch of niggers with guns. I don't care what you want.

>>25371899
fuck ur dumbass shill argument. ur just spouting talking points

>>25371998
If you gave me $50 to give to my mother I'd keep it and tell you to fuck off because you can't tell me what to do.

>>25372021
>51 posts by this id
WEW irs detected

>>25371985
Business regulation
>>25372013
Then you can't be a legitimate business

Nothing to do with tax being stealing though. No-one is stealing from you by making you collect a tax from someone else.

>>25371998

No no, it's like my mother gave me 50 dollars and smackhead tyrone on the corner didn't see so he couldn't rob me to feed his nigger babies

>>25372025
>>25372028
Lol absolutely seething and incapable of rational thought

>>25372054
>No-one is stealing from you by making you collect a tax from someone else.

Ok then collect $100 from your mother and give it to me or I'll seize it from you.

>>25372054

Ah so if someone is threatening you to do labor for free, such as collecting sales taxes, they are not stealing your time, body and energy? Congratulations you have found a loophole to justify slavery.

Come on, do murder and rape next you filthy jew

>>25372065
It's literally not, and the fact this is the best you can do highlights how you're argument boils down to "I just want to keep the sales tax for myself even though it doesn't belong to me"

>>25372076

You will never be useful to anyone. Seethe.

>>25372132

My body, my choice

>>25372090
Not applicable, my mother would have to agree to buy something from me with the understanding a percentage would go to you. Bad analogy.
>>25372107
Different argument. We're arguing about whether taxation is theft. Making you perform tax collection is a different matter. You can argue that's theft of your labor if you want, I don't care about that either way and never made any claims about it. But the sales tax itself doesn't constitute monetary theft, which is the actual discussion.

I also love how seething this is making you, btw.

>>25372132
>own money
>not your money
absolute IQ of an IRS-Tard

>>25372132
Give me all your money. It doesn't belong to you. I'm now imposing a 100% tax on you. If you ever get paid by an employer you MUST be an intermediary on my behalf and collect double your paycheck or else it's coming out of your pocket. It was never yours, remember.

>>25372236
How does the business own money if that money was paid to them by the customer on the understanding that it's sales tax to be paid to the government?

Again this is like me saying "here's $50 to give to you mother" and you claiming you own that money and keeping it.

>>25372279
govt is not party to that transaction dumbass

>>25372213

It's like trying to scream a mentally handicapped child into rational, morally correct thought. Enjoy your Marxist utopia I guess. Move to California or Canada if you really believe in what you are saying, see how it works yourself. You aren't human enough to have these conversations.

>>25372279

There is no understanding. You comply or you die.

>>25372300
>>25372213
he thinks the louder he shills for govt snatching ur money the more right he'll be lmao

>>25372331
>>25372300
>>25372279
I really have a strong urge to tar and feather this motherfucker

>>25372213
>Not applicable, my mother would have to agree to buy something from me with the understanding a percentage would go to you. Bad analogy.

Ok, no problem. I'll go over and MAKE her understand.

>>25367247
Hong Kong, 15% salary/income tax, no capital gain/inheritance/import/sales tax. Almost free health care and education. We have a huge implicit tax through extremely high land/property price tho.

>WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY!
>DONT LIKE TAXES? LEAVE LOL

I'm not paying a single fucking cent on any crypto gains after seeing this bullshit useless spending on this covid bill. If you are gonna waste my tax dollars then I will just keep them.

Catch me if you can you piece of shit IRS cock suckers.

>>25372331

Right? Is that a VOLUNTARY TRANSACTION I SEE BETWEEN TO CONSENTING MORAL AGENTS? Better go use violence to get a cut!

Like customers actively go to stores and say "hi yes I'd like to pay extra money I would otherwise use to feed my family to fund the child sex rings in the government". I mean I get that these sick fucks want their child porn but why come here and justify stealing money from people who want nothing to do with that shit?

Taxation pays for pedophiles and war. That's it. The rest are just minor expenses tacked on after the fact as a justification.

>>25367287
Nigga u fucking dumb as rocks

>TAXES ARE A NECESSARY EVIL
>WE NEED ROADS AND STUFF

>>25372249
This wouldn't be a big deal in reality, employers already pay tax for employing you, the only difference here would be then paying it to you directly on the understanding you'd then pay it to the government.
>>25372294
Yes they are. Do you know what that sentence means?
>>25372300
I've been saying throughout this that tax avoidance is sensible self interest. My only point is about retards screaming "taxation is theft" being dumbasses, which you've proven.
>>25372320
>>25372331
>>25372361
Lol, absolutely seething impotent rage. Always good evidence that you've won the argument when the other side is like this.

>>25367377
>How did we get by pre-1913 without income tax then?
we were a cohesive country then. people felt a relation to their neighbors. often time they had direct relation to their neighbors.

>>25372504
govt is not party to two individuals consented actions.

do you ask the govt before sticking your penis in your bf?

>>25372429
This nigger is acting like sales tax is the same thing as the thing where the cashier says "Would you like to donate your change to retarded children in Africa?" and then the customer agrees with the understanding that it will go to retarded children in Africa. But if every store ever forced them to do it, that really isn't an "understanding"

>TAX ISN'T SLAVERY, THERE'S AN UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN TWO PARTIES THAT IF YOU BUY SOMETHING YOU WILL PAY TAX
>ITS NOT FORCED

>>25372528
>govt is not party to two individuals consented actions.
It is when the medium of exchange is fiat currency. If your argument concerned two individuals bartering goods then I'd agree but instead you're choosing to use government tokens essentially and taxes are the transaction fees

>>25372539
If you don't want to pay the tax taken don't but it. If you buy something knowing there's a sales tax you cannot claim it's theft.

>>25372476
lolbertarian+silly+face.png

>>25372573
>government tokens
the us government does not create any money, nor does the fed. money is private not public and created by private banking institutions fucking dumbass.

>IF YOU CHOOSE TO USE GOVERNMENT TOKENS YOU'RE CONSENTING TO PAY THEIR 'TRANSACTION FEES'

>>25367377
>The IRS just spawned one day and demanded we pay all these retard bullshit taxes out of nowhere.
that's what the WW1 order begat.
>we need these taxes for that war in europe, goy
>we'll continue to need those taxes to preserve the peace, goy
>we'll also need to send your children over there to free the jews, goy
>now you need to pay for the preservation of the jewish state, goy

>>25372573
>It is when the medium of exchange is fiat currency

The use of fiat currency is mandatory for businesses. You think a business can just get around sales tax by saying they only take payment in bitcoin? If you get paid in any asset, that's considered taxable in the value in fiat. You don't even know that or?

Do you really own your house if at a 3% property tax rate you've basically given the government the entire value of said house after 30 years?
You're paying the bank the value of the hosue with a 30 year mortgage and then paying the government that house for 30 years.

>>25372621
I suggest you look into the definition of fiat money and why it has any utility as a medium of exchange.

>>25372663
>government tokens
LOL

>>25367841
I saved this image in a folder called "cunts"

>>25372634
Property tax used to be called "tribute to caesar". Imagine the reaction people would have today if it was called "Tribute to Trump/Biden/israel".

>>25372631
I do, which is why I said at the start this only applies to fiat. You've gotten so caught up in your emotions that you think I'm pro taxation for pointing out how retarded it is to call taxation stealing. You're basically "orange man bad" npc and confused by people saying things that don't conform to your bubble.

>>25372663
Perhaps it's the banks you should shill for not the government. It is their tokens you use. The govt has been forced to use their "tokens" through various devious means. Nonetheless the US Dollars is NOT the GOVERNMENT's, or the people's, it's the BANKING SYSTEM's.

Your entire argument has collapsed.

>>25372565
>i would be so rich if there was no tax!
were 100% owned by big capital
>bro i would just own Slaves and get rih bro!
>>colllectivists

>>25372573

Try that shit in real life tough guy, you would have 3 rounds in your chest before you could say muh laws

>OKAY, TAXATION MIGHT MEET THE DEFINITION OF SLAVERY, BUT ITS FOR THE GREATER GOOD!
>HOW CAN YOU EXPECT PEOPLE TO BE RESPONSIBLE WITH THEIR OWN MONEY?
>BETTER IF THE GOVERNMENT MAKES THE DECISIONS

>>25367150
i prefer anarchy.

>inb4 go to somalia

Somalia fell into civil war after a socialist government destroyed the economy same as venezuela.

Anarchy = us homesteading culture until central banking

>>25372728
>>25372624
>>25372565
kek killin it

>>25372714

You are an evil piece of shit and the sooner you kill yourself or someone kills you, the better. I would even donate to the fund raisers for your assassination.

>just spent my government token relief check on the new funko pop

>>25372634
is this a cope i smell?
property tax is gay but if it's your reason not to buy land you live in a shitty state and/or can't afford a mortgage anyway.

>>25372715
Do I really need to spell it out that fiat derives value from the government enforcement of it as a medium of exchange? The fact the banks own it is irrelevant.
>>25372721
Lmao is this supposed to be an argument? You know you have to be 18 to post here right? You're not crying right now are you?

>>25372759

The funniest part is that now the socialists are gone, the situation is improving rapidly.

>>25372714
Nope, I'm calling you on your bullshit, retard. Look at your quote:
> but instead you're choosing to use government tokens essentially and taxes are the transaction fees

You said "choosing" to use government tokens, and I pointed out why it's not a choice. If it were a choice then I would have switched to having gold or bitcoin as the only form of payment yesterday. But the fact that the government mandates that the taxable value must be calculated in fiat and paid in fiat would only make that infeasible or a hassle.

>>25372763
This is delicious. I can feel the seethe from here

>>25372795
>Do I really need to spell it out that fiat derives value from the government enforcement of it as a medium of exchange? The fact the banks own it is irrelevant.

>>25372795

Hey if you want to use violence to steal from me, I just kill you. No cops. I own a large piece of woodland.

>>25367121
>voluntarily mail checks
>”wtf, this is theft!”
Nigger just don’t pay them.

>>25372728
Haha

>>25372795
you got completely caught off guard not knowing the US Dollar is property of the private Banking System.

Try to damage control all you want, but the dollar is not a GOVERNMENT TOKEN lmfao.

>>25372821

Still not an argument brainlet hahaha "muh socialism caused deathcamps but this time we'll make it work".

>>25372804
Right, but I already addressed this at the start. I believe some forms of taxation could be considered extortion whilst others can't as they rely on consent. The fact you as a business has to use fiat is the reality of the situation. But "hassle" as you put it, isn't the same as theft.

Man make thing.
Man give thing to other man for 10 credit.
Third man say "give me 4 of thos credit, we live in a village!"
Man say no.
Third man beat up man and put in cage.
Third man say to second man "give me 2 of thos credit"
Second man scared, second man pay.
Tax good.

>>25372880
Yeah, I'm not a socialist and I've not said anything indicating I am or that I'm even pro taxation (I'm not). That's your emotions going out of control again.

>>25372924

Lying isn't going to work you dumb commie. Taxation is theft. It's that simple.

>>25372846
This, desu. Or move somewhere else.

>>25372950
>>25372924
The government produces nothing. Why would anybody argue to give more to a cancerous tumor that only sucks value out of the economy?

>>25372924
>Yeah, I'm not a socialist

>>25372950
>Taxation is theft
Literally not as we've covered and give gotten all seething about. You're a bunxh of coping npcs repeating overseas to each other like "taxation is theft" whilst at least some of you admit to paying it. You know how much I paid in taxes last year? You'd probably go into full pink wojak mode.

>>25372984

It's a third party with a gun telling you to hand over the loot. Anything else is just window dressing and mental gymnastics.

>>25373015

Yeah he's a communist. Earlier in the thread he justified slavery lol. The CCP really did a number on american public education.

>>25373015
Go on. Why do you think I'm socialist?

>>25373028
>Violently taking away the property and product of labor from another human being, without consent, is not theft.

>>25373028

I don't want to get shot so I hand over the cash. Theft.

>>25372892
>But "hassle" as you put it, isn't the same as theft.

You really are low iq aren't you? You misunderstood why I used the hassle. I'm not saying that the theft is a hassle. I'm saying because either way the theft would occur and I would be forced to use fiat, that choosing to use crypto as my form of payment wouldn't free me from this theft, but only add the hassle of converting it. .

>>25373073
What is violently taken away from you when you pay sales tax when buying something at the store?

>>25373059
The gov is the enforcement arm of the Banking System's dollar.

What you're doing is being held at gun-point to fork over your cash.

This IS THEFT.

lmao you argued perfectly against your entire argument. the US govt has a gun at your head telling you to hand over the loot. thanks.

>>25373106
for
>>25373101


Govt is enforcement arm of the banking system. That's theft dumbass.

>>25373101
>What is violently taken away from you when you pay sales tax when buying something at the store?

>>25373092
>low iq
You're the one too stupid to not to understand how to legally evade most taxes

Sad!

>>25373101
>>25373137
>what is velvet glove steel fist?

>>25373101

My freedom

>>25373106
>lmao you argued perfectly against your entire argument. the US govt has a gun at your head telling you to hand over the loot. thanks.
I don't think you even know what my argument is. Did you miss the parts where I referred to certain taxes as extortion (that's what you call it when someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to do something).

>>25373195

Semantics, commie. It's all fear based violent crime.

>>25373183
>Muh freedom
Literally an npc. Why don't you just not buy whatever it is if you don't want to pay the sales tax?

>>25373106
>>25373132
>>25373137
Then move.

>>25373139
When it's legal it's tax avoidance rather than tax fraud, which is based. For example my parents just stayed on their work visas for decades rather than get American citizenship so they could avoid income tax, then applied for citizenship right before retirement. I do most of my investing in my Roth IRA, which I can use to retire early using a Roth IRA Conversion ladder. Of course tax complainers will either pay tax or commit outright fraud rather than finding clever and perfectly legal loopholes.

>>25373195
>completely lose all credibility by saying the dollar is from the government
>go into damage-control and move goal posts
you're done.

>>25373227
You've missed the point again.

>>25373139
Why would you want to do that? It's no theft is it?
>>25373195
>Did you miss the parts where I referred to certain taxes as extortion (that's what you call it when someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to do something).

Did you know that extortion is a form of theft?

>>25373246
>Then move.

-> >>25372391

>>25373246
>>25373239
US citizens were here before the government. Why not tell the government to move?
>inb4 muh indians

>>25373227
agreed - more akin to threats like assault vs battery.

>>25373277
That's the most based thing I've heard all night, anon.
Checked.

>>25373239
Lol bro your slave-owner is taking 100% of your labor? Just don't work gg ez

>>25373239

Why don't you mind your own goddamn business? Npc retards like you would blindly accept any tax, vaccine or anal probe and then justify it afterwards because daddy government wouldn't hurt you ever. Deal with your issues and fuck off.

>>25373246

Your family is going to get roped soon too

>>25373260

There is no point to your existence

>>25373246
Exactly. I own a bunch of apartments and offset the interest owed on them against the income plus usual expenses and pay close to zero taxes, whilst raking in 5 figures a month. Rarely pay sales tax as I buy most stuff as business expenses. Meanwhile these idiots crying "tax is theft" on their shitty little retail businesses or wagie gigs think I'm a socialist.

>>25373308
This whole thing is because this autist thought he had some enlightened view where extortion is not stealing or theft.

>>25373268
>Did you know that extortion is a form of theft?
Yes that was my point. Are you honestly this dense?

>>25373305
well meme'd friend. I saw your work.

This thread's done. Put a fork in it boys.

>>25373352
The system shouldn't exist. I shouldn't have to come up with a million ways to game it

>>25373365

You can just smell the low test soiboi on his posts

>>25367121
how about we make taxes opt-in but without an id band that shows you pay tax you will not be saved by the police or firemen or emts you can't use roads and bridges and other public infrastructure and so on...

>>25373268
>Why would you want to do that? It's no theft is it?
I've said from the beginning that tax avoidance is sensible self interest. You seem to have fallen into the low iq trap of thinking someone not falling into your cope echo chamber must be the polar opposite of you politically. Why not try independent thought instead of being an npc?

>im paying all my taxes
>im doing all the work to figure out how much tax i owe despite the IRS already knowing exactly how much I owe
>im wearing my mask
>im taking the vaccine
>im following the curfews
>im just 'quarantining'
>i dont feel so good
>im taking my meds
>im transitioning
>im depressed
>im going to kill myself
>im no longer a burden on society

I'm leaving this thread.

>>25373275
Great rebuttal. If you don't want to move, your options are:
>Do nothing, or complain (same effect)
>Research legal tax avoidance
>Just lie or straight up don't pay (don't recommend this but it's consistent with your beliefs)

>>25373277
OK, tell the government to move. I wish they'd move too and if you have a revolution I legit wish you luck, but I'm going to move once I get my doctorate.

>>25373350
>Your family is going to get roped soon too
For not paying enough tax? Try to rope us and we'll shoot you in self-defense you filthy commie.

>>25373352
Yeah I rent out rooms in my house and can write off improvements because it's business and it is 100% legal.

>>25373352

So you are literally using government handouts to deprive others of the opportunity to buy homes at market prices by leveraging the hypothetical value of these properties, and still you want to claim you are not a socialist lol hahahaha oh wow

>>25373308
Literally said at the start that some forms of taxation qualify as theft and some don't.
>>25373365
No, my point was that extortion (which is theft only more correct) doesn't apply to all taxes. It's literally incorrect and repeating it as fact makes you look stupid and hurts your argument.

>>25373428
You were pissing me off for a second with the sales tax thing. You're still dumb because you were arguing that taxation is not theft, while admitting it was extortion. Because you don't understand that theft doesn't have to be in the form of outright robbery.

>On the other hand I believe property tax could be classified as extortion (theft is still technically incorrect until the money is forcibly removed from you).

>>25373473

Nah you dirty leaches just need to go the fuck back. Stealing people's pensions, disgusting.

>>25373481
>taxation is theft!
>avoiding tax legally by researching how the tax code works is socialism!
ngmi

>>25373492

Yeah still not an argument. I don't want anything to do with you so fuck off out of my business.

>>25373481
That's called capitalism, anon. Like I said earlier: >>25369566
If you're a business owner and you don't make use of every taxpayer funded service or schemes you can then you're incompetent and wouldn't last 5 minutes in the corporate world

>>25367121
This is why I mine Safex.

>>25373528
You know how pension works, right? You pay into it through your labor and your corporation gives it to you regardless of citizenship. God you are like a baby. People point out that there are ways to avoid tax and instead of trying to help yourself financially you lash out at them and indulge in violent revenge fantasies.
ngmi

>>25373545

I'm already rich and I just ignore most taxes. It's surprisingly easy where I live. Taxation is still wrong.

>>25373579

The guy doesn't have a business, he just has government leverage. Without the government he would not be able to do what he does. It's that simple. Not capitalism.

>>25373492
>No, my point was that extortion (which is theft only more correct) doesn't apply to all taxes

That point is wrong. For many reasons I've covered. Forced use of fiat for example.

>>25373607
>People point out that there are ways to avoid tax and instead of trying to help yourself financially you lash out at them and indulge in violent revenge fantasies.
There's a reason these people are poor.

>>25373607

Fuck off we're full