/biz/ - Business & Finance

>cashing out on crypto
What kind of money we speaking here? There is no reason to at this moment and I doubt you made enough to make it worthwile.

There is no reason to cash out unless you hit lambo status. There is still plenty to flex at. Worry about the IRS later. Build your portfolio. Make gains. Cash out when you are done.

Bump

>cashing out the new global currency
You're going to have to cash out your fiat dollars

>>2125310
Are crypto gains even taxable if I just buy stuff with BTC? Technically I haven't made any interest, I have the same amount of virtual coins as when I started, they're just worth a lot more.

>>2125310
Never fully cash out. Keep your money in random stable coins and cash out a little at a time to stay under the tax radar. If you wanna make a big purchase there's no real way to avoid taxes other than finding someone who'll accept a crypto payment.

So if I hit say $100k & decide I want to cash out, should I just move 2k a month or so to my bank account? Or would this become very obvious and land me in federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison?

>>2126496
anything you buy with crypto and all coin to coin trades are taxable in the US. I know that pisses you all off, but it's true.

>>2125310
You don't understand investment.

The point isn't to make millions then cash out. Investing is a lifelong dedication. You take out what you need but leave most still in and you keep re-investing and use a small portion to invest into more risky short term options.

>>2126496
Yes. If you bought baseball cards for $100 and traded them for a Lambo that's a taxable gain. Bitcoin is no different

>>2127237
>So if I hit say $100k & decide I want to cash out, should I just move 2k a month or so to my bank account? Or would this become very obvious and land me in federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison?
Taxes are taxes anon. That's perfectly legal.

>>2127237
at 2k a month the bank probably won't file any suspicious transaction reports, but it would take forever, and a clever bank employee still may spot it and report the transactions as suspicious. it's a gamble.

>>2127255
Wrong.

Taxable income is treated the same taken at once or 2k at a time. When he does his taxes his taxable income is the same whether he took out his 24k 2k at a time each month or 24k all in one month.

>>2125310
Just wait until society is an ancap utopia that runs on crypto currency and smart contracts then buy your lamborghini airship.

>>2127253
>>2127268
I meant more as an attempt to avoid taxes. Which is not perfectly legal, sadly enough.

>>2127268
I was under the assumption he was not going to pay taxes and was trying to structure the deposits to avoid suspicion, that's where my advice came from. I would never try it though. I work for a bank. you can't fool us.

>>2127242
what's the penalty for not reporting that stuff?

>>2127319
kek.

what's the penalty for not paying your taxes?

wage garnishment, jail, you name it. depends on how deep of shit you get into.

>>2127243
First off, this^

Second off, you just pay taxes. You think any of this would be happening without the tax man maintaining a wealthy country? You cuckservatives make me sick

>But muh sovereign citizen
>But muh tea party

Leave the country or pay taxes fagboi

>>2127319
bubba gets to have his way with you in the shower

>>2125310
>How do I cash out crypto without getting raped by fees and the IRS?
Don't sell at exchange.
Sell against cash and meet in person.
Obviously, there are risks involved but imho better than paying XX% in tax.

I personally just decided to stay in the market until I don't have to cash out anymore and can pay everything in crypto. Would literally have to give ~55% of my crypto gains to the commie tax man in my country.
Fuck that shit.
Wouldn't have said anything if tax were like 5-15%.

>>2127293
hard to rob to thieves, but not impossible.

>>2127393
>giving up 55% of your crypto gains in taxes
That's just ridiculous. I always thought "taxation is theft" was a joke, but ever since I started browsing /biz/ I realize how hard the government fucks us over.

>>2127341
>Leave the country or pay taxes fagboi

Fuck off you loser gov-cuck

I had a question about this as well. I live in California where capital gains are taxed as regular income. Of course I don't want to give any of those bloodsuckers any of my hard earned gainz. If any of my crypto ever goes to the moon and I want to cash out, my plan is to move out of California to a state with no state capital gains tax. I believe Florida is such a state, but I'm not sure. And also, I believe you have to live in the other state for an entire year, because otherwise partial year's income would need to be paid to California. Does anyone know more about state's treatment of capital gains & partial year returns?

Just trying to plan ahead here.

>>2125310

Hold until a good crypto debit card comes out or we can pay for things directly in it. Some cards are already out but the fees are too high.

>>2127393
I've read they've started cracking down on that. I've read stories about people being busted in sting operations for selling BTC without the proper financial services licensing. These government thieves are relentless in their pursuit of getting their hands their cut

No capital gains tax in NZ, feels good being free.

>>2125310
this method takes a bit of work but its basically 0% fees

>put all coins into btc
>use btc to buy guns on the deepweb
>use guns to rob bank

bank robberies aren't taxed + no fees
if you want you can sell the guns also

>>2128455
bruh.

>>2127642
Remember kids, whenever you make money, Uncle Sam comes to take their share. With fucking M16s.

>>2127572
Sup Commiefornia bro. I was just reading up on capital gains tax in our fucked up state. Turns out we have the second highest cap gains tax in the fucking WORLD, and somehow our state is still broke. Fucking useless democrat cunts.

>>2128544
gracias para su deniro, gringo

>>2128544
this is why I plan to move to another state if I ever decide I have enough that it's worth cashing out. I don't want to get in trouble and not pay taxes, but of course i want to give those parasites as little as I can, especially to California where the money will just be used to give to illegal immigrants. Fuck California, I'm out of here as soon as I have enough.

but I know that when you live in a state for a partial year, you have to pay a partial year's taxes to that state. I don't know if that includes capital gains. What I might do is move in December and then cash out in January.

>>2128528
ik
you can thank me when you're part of the lambo club

different question: how do i actually pay taxes? i have a lot of transactions to report. like what form would i fill out and shit

>>2127319
>be friend
>avoided taxes by keeping in swiss bank account
>not much, low 6 figures
>IRS spent over 5 million dollars investigating my case
>now I'm felon, cant get job, depressed, low 6 figures in debt, will probably die soon from stress
> :(

>>2128603
neet revolution when

>>2127341
What if I'm not in america but im using a us bank account?

>>2128589
schedule d

you have to report the cost basis and proceeds of each transaction. then you pay a 15% tax on gains. You can also subtract losses from your income (though I don't know if that applies to coins)

If you only sell a little bit each year the IRS probably won't target you, but if you cash out $100,000 and then don't declare that as capital gains, you might get targeted.

What do you pay if all your btc was "hacked"

>>2127572
I don't live in the us anymore howver the bank account i still use is in florida, if i wanna cash out how would taxes rape me?

>>2128624
i don't think that'd be a capital loss since you didn't sell anything. Probably a theft loss, which you can take as an itemized deduction.

>>2128637
can't answer, but I imagine if you're a resident of california then you have to pay california taxes.

>>2125310
If you choose to do it by the books. I think its treated as property, so the max amount of taxes you would have to pay would be around 2% depending on what state you live in

>>2128645
Florida fag

fuck i'll just report it as income

they'll get their money and if they get pissy i'll just plead ignorance about how to file it

>>2128662
well I'm not sure that works. Of course if you haven't lived in California at all during that tax year, you wouldn't pay California taxes. But if you lived part of the year you pay a proportional tax. but only on income "earned" in California, iirc. i don't know if that includes capital gains. Point is I don't want Jerry Brown getting any of it so he can just squander it on bullet trains and free health care for illegals, so I'm definitely getting the hell up out of here before I sell.

>>2128672
report it as capital gains. Form schedule D. It's not hard. You can subtract the cost basis from the sale price, so you only pay tax on the proceeds

>>2128553
Where's that wall we were promised TRUMP REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>2128620
Are you US citizen? Then your world wide income is taxable in the US.

But desu. taxes are theft.

>>2128603
Ultimately we will all be cucked by the IRS. They are suing coinbase for all their customer's info so they can fucking audit everyone. Their next step is probably to go after the exchanges.

>>2128720
I'm not a citizen lel, i sprnt 5 years there, got my social security, and i left just two months ago for Spain.
Not sure how this affects my taxes but i have two coin base accounts one in murica and one in the eu

>>2128569
Good luck bro. Hope it works out for you. Wish I could leave this piece of shit state but I'm kind of stuck here.

>>2128755
we'll see. if bitcoins ever hit $10k or any of my memecoins pay off, i'll have enough for my dream. hodln until that day

>>2128621
Each transaction? Does that include every time I exchange between coins or just to/from my bank?

>>2128777
just when you sell bitcoins (ie exchange them for dollars). You report the sale price, and the cost of the coins (what you originally paid for them), and subtract the cost from the sale price, and that's what you're taxed on.

>>2128621
What's the most stable coin to leave it in if we're cashing out slowly?

Ethereum?

>>2127393
How do you pay for *everything* in crypto?

>>2128455
Fucking this.

>>2128789
I can't answer that. What makes you think ethereum is stable? I think all coins are going to continue to see big fluctuations. I'd probably go for the one with the best record of continue appreciation, and that's bitcoin

If I buy 1btc and it doubles and I cash out half of it, would I pay tax?

>>2128739
Then you should do your taxes in Spain. Which means you're fucked because the spanish tax system is a bureaucratic medieval hellhole. xD

Just make sure you have your private info in your us banking account changed to your new address. The murricans could get suspicious otherwise and you could have a bad surprise the next time you're visiting burgerland. (They could open an investigation and border guards could put you in a holding cell till everything clears up).

Statism is disgusting.

>>2128843
So if i transfer my funds from bittrex to coinbase and there i withdraw it onto my us bank account id have to pay spanish tax even if the money is in $?

>>2126496
Capital Gains Tax dumb American dog

>>2128835
Yes, theoretically you need to pay taxes on the profits. (Or the transaction itself, depending on how retarded your government is).

Feels good, eh? Being robbed by people who have nothing to do with your coin gains. Simply because "muh social contract" you never signed you have to give them a part of your property or else they throw you in jail.

Taxation is theft.

>>2128777
actually, here's some good info on this subject

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

>Q-6: Does a taxpayer have gain or loss upon an exchange of virtual currency for
other property?
>A-6: Yes. If the fair market value of property received in exchange for virtual currency
exceeds the taxpayer’s adjusted basis of the virtual currency, the taxpayer has taxable
gain.

so, no you don't have to report exchange to other coins because the value at the time of the exchange have the same value at the time.

>>2128855
Yes. Tax residency. Wherever you are living there you need to pay taxes. (Well, except if you're US citizen. Then you need to pay taxes wherever you live AND additionally in the US).

If it's significant money we're talking about it would be wise to read up on the topic. State thugs don't like it when you "steal" from them (keep your property).

And because we're living in 1984 every fucking banking transaction is monitored so there's no sense in elaborate shuffling of money between bank accounts.

And exchanges are little cucks to the tax authorities and keep extensive records.

So if you have 1 million Euros in BTC you probably should pay tax unless you want to end up in a cage. (Or better: Get to some offshore tax haven and cash out there).

>>2128860
Not necessary. IIRC the US IRS doesn't treat coins as "capital" and burgers have a harder time with taxing their coins. AFAIK they need to pay taxes on every transaction (because for the IRS it's like buying/selling a car and not investing).

But I'm an Eurofag and a burger with some knowledge should clear this up.

>>2128835
I don't think so, because that's not a capital gain, in USD right?

>>2128785
This is a relief. For some reason I was thinking i'd have to figure out each little transaction I make on Bittrex.

So really I can do the following (simplified?)

1. Buy Cyto on Coinbase
2. Sent to Bittrex
3. Makes lots of trades on Bittrex
3. Send to Coinbase
4. Cash out to bank in USD
5. Subtract the USD value I bought coins with initially final USD value that goes back in my bank
6. Use that value for capital gains on Sec. 4

Right?

>>2127341
>You think any of this would be happening without the tax man maintaining a wealthy country?
Yes, and it would be better. IIRC the US tax revenue is at 35% GDP. Just imagine if everyone had 35% more money. The economy would boom and without idiotic regulations we would be pumping and dumping real stocks here and not shitty random numbers without any fundamentals.

Fuck the state. It makes everything worse.

>>2128886
you got it

>>2128882
Oh okay, it's definitely CGT in my country which comes under Income Tax but they do say you need to keep records so it's possible I'm missing something in my country too.
>>2128875
Alri Stefan

>>2128875
Most of my gauns are in us currency, but how do i go about cashing out in a heaven? I can transfer the funds from the us account to the eu account no problem tho

>>2128886
>This is a relief.
Actually you need to pay income tax on barter. No one does though and the IRS doesn't enforce it. But if they wanted they could fuck you with that.

So bartering your BTC for XRP would mean you need to pay some amount of that as income tax. But I have no fucking idea how they would calculate the amount owed.

https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

They put their claws into fucking everything.

>>2128886
Hate to burst your bubble dude, but I'm pretty sure each transaction is taxable, even between cryptos. I just talked to a CPA about this and that's what I was told.

>>2128912
>So bartering your BTC for XRP would mean you need to pay some amount of that as income tax. But I have no fucking idea how they would calculate the amount owed.

No it wouldn't because they'd have the same value at the time. Therefore there's no loss or gain.

>Q-6: Does a taxpayer have gain or loss upon an exchange of virtual currency for other property?
>A-6: Yes. If the fair market value of property received in exchange for virtual currency exceeds the taxpayer’s adjusted basis of the virtual currency, the taxpayer has taxable
gain.

>>2127986
feels fucking goon nzbro

>>2128910
It counts where you reside when you make the gains. Gains in BTC itself usually aren't taxable (check your local tax code) unless you convert those to a fiat currency.

So what you would do is:

1. Get to an offshore haven (or any country with an acceptable tax rate - i.e. not western europe)
2. Live there for 6 months + 1 day
3. Convert your BTC to USD (or whatever)
4. Transfer it to your bank account

Neither the currency, nor your citizenship*, nor where your banking account is located has any influence on where you pay taxes. The only thing that counts is where you live.

You could also create an offshore company and somehow transfer the bitcoins to them (needs to be believable - just gifting $1 million in BTC to some company won't fly with your local tax authorities). And cash out via the company. But that's expensive (not too expensive but not worth the trouble < $100k) and complicated to get it water tight. Certainly a too complex topic for a Chinese tax evasion board.

* = burgers are fucked. their world income is always taxable in the US.

>>2128947
yes us burgers are always cucked by our government. How else will we pay for the next war with north korea to fatten the wallets of boeing/lockheed/blah blah?

>>2128928
Ah, good to know.

>>2128947
Ok i understand 90% of what you said just that the cashing out in a safe heaven, lets say im standing in safe heaven and my bank account is a Florida checking account, do i open a new bank account in the safe heaven or is it all about where im physically standing? ?

>>2128947
Hahaha thank fuck I'm not from the US
Our government knows about bitcoin but the population is barely aware, I'm making so much money next week I'm going to call my bank account executive to check if I'll have to pay taxes when I cash out.

I'm 21 years old. I have no fucking clue how taxes work. I'm planning on cashing out some of my ETH once I've got about 2 grand worth. Will that be taxable once I cash out?

>>2128737
Well I'm glad I've been doing this for less than a year so I can actually report my capital gains. Taking a 28% hit sucks but at least I won't be taking it in the ass by bubba in the shower every time I drop the soap.

>>2128965
it doesnt matter since your bank account in american the irs will come after you no matter where in the world you are

>>2128981
the different between the usd you bought your coin with and the amount you have now is.

>>2128861
What pisses me off the most is that I don't benefit at all from taxes. So what, I'm paying the policeman to pull me over? Firemen don't do shit, my house isn't going to catch on fire, statistically there's <1% I'll ever call a fireman. What are my taxes even going to? The schools around my town are absolute shit, they're a joke. Taxes aren't helping the education system. I make 75k a year and pay a ludicrous amount in taxes. Seriously, what are my taxes going to? Cause I have no fucking idea.

>>2128994
Even if i withdraw 5 dollars, wait isnt there a way to send this as a gift ?

>>2128960
more info
https://www.irs.gov/uac/like-kind-exchanges-under-irc-code-section-1031

>WASHINGTON — Whenever you sell business or investment property and you have a gain, you generally have to pay tax on the gain at the time of sale. IRC Section 1031 provides an exception and allows you to postpone paying tax on the gain if you reinvest the proceeds in similar property as part of a qualifying like-kind exchange. Gain deferred in a like-kind exchange under IRC Section 1031 is tax-deferred, but it is not tax-free.

So, if you exchange one asset for the same kind of asset of the same value, then you can defer taxes on that exchange.

if you use your crypto to buy goods and services, then yes, you are essentially "selling" the crypto back into dollars at that time, so technically all crypto transactions have to be reported, though that's probably very tough to enforce. Big exchanges made through a place like Coinbase into USD will definitely have to be reported.

why not just move to a state like Wyoming or something where the tax rate is next to nothing, and then cash out as soon as you get there?

>>2128981

Generally all income is taxable. Most countries have tax free brackets though. Here in Germany for example it's ~8k/year. If you make less than that you don't need to pay any income taxes.

So look this shit up for your jurisdiction. Chances are that you're a 21 yo neet faggot without any other income so you probably won't have to pay a dime.

But look it up. Ask Google. I'm sure there are dozens of "crypto currency taxation <your shithole>" results to be found.

dont be a bootlicker

never pay taxes

rand 2024 will free us from this authoritarian hellhole

>>2128981
just assume everything is taxable

>>2128965
It's about where you reside. (Provided you are NOT an US citizen because for them there's other rules).

Most tax codes define tax residency as "at least living (6 months + 1 day)/year in the country".

So if you're a tax resident of a haven you can cash out everywhere. Your income would be taxable in the haven.

But I hope you know that legal tax residency in a tax haven is fucking expensive and is only worth it if we're talking about serious money and not just a few grand.

>>2129003
Of course you could gift it to someone. But that someone would need to pay gift tax on it. So either way you lose and the parasitic state wins.

>>2129038
Im not a us citizen tho, so i should hust cash out in the country with the lowest tax rate after living there for 6 months?

Can someone tell me how much the fee in canada is?

>>2129048
14k is the max taxless amount you can gift

>>2129002
Immigrants probably

>>2129048
or you just dont cash out through a jew bank

>>2128928
the keyword in that quote is "basis".
when you buy bitcoin and it goes up in value, and then you trade that bitcoin for an altcoin, the value of the altcoin you're getting exceeds the basis of the bitcoin.

>>2129006
actually I might be wrong about this. I'm not sure section 1031 applies to crypto exchanges.

https://klasing-associates.com/possible-1031-exchange-bitcoin-ethereum-electroniccrypto-currencies/

honestly now I'm not sure how it works. but I found this website that can help calculate you tax, and import data from exchanges.

>>2129002
>Taxes aren't helping the education system.
They literally created the education system. And the roads you drive on, your countries military so you don't get invaded and bfto, food and agriculture, transportation, energy, etc.

>>2129006
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1uccfz/i_am_a_tax_attorney_here_are_my_answers_to_the/
See question 4.
There's ambiguity as to whether trading cryptocurrency is a like-kind exchange.

>>2129002
You're preaching to the choir, man. I don't even have the equivalency of a high school diploma. Yet I run a software business making way more than the average German.

They tax me to death. Even though the "society" did nothing for me. All shit I learned I taught myself. (Well, I give them credit for teaching me reading and writing).

I have to pay around 45% income tax, then municipality tax, then 15% of my gross income (before taxes) for my "free" health insurance, 20% VaT (sales tax), extra taxes for my car. I did the math. I spend about 70 cents of every Euro I make for taxes and social contributions.

And now we have the whole 3rd world here that are holding out their hands. Because our politicians felt like we have too much shit anyway and we can always rob the citizens of more to give away to backwards 3rd world cultures.

Welfare states are a modern form of Gulag for the productive. I hope the EU collapses and there's a civil war soon. I just want to remove those leftists from life.

>>2129068
those are all things that could be done better by the private sector without stealing anybody's money to pay for them you dumb statecuck

>>2129068
>They literally created the education system.

Lol no. They didn't. In the US the federal education system was created in the early 70s.

And oh wonder ... look at the quality of education the burgers now get.

>roads
muh roads

Just kill yourself you brain washed collectivist cunt.

>>2129068
good bootlicker

i love when the government takes my private property using threats of violence and/or actual violence

thank you daddy government

>>2129095
>those are all things that could be done better by the private sector
>could be

youre ideals on how a country is run is doesnt change reality anon

>>2129018
We'll never be free from taxes. Poor people would burn down the cities if you took away their gibs. Rich people getting a cut from various forms of rent seeking would instigate wars. The bottom 33.3% as well was the top 0.0001% need to be launched into the sun first.

>>2129109
and just because you call the thief "government" doesn't change the fact that taking someone's private property using threats of violence and/or violence is theft

all of those were provided by the free market before government decided they wanted to use violence to control those sectors of the economy

>>2129101
>In the US the federal education system was created in the early 70s.

with taxes

>>2129116
i guess the only option is to keep working towards what must be done and in the mean time evade taxes and kill communists when they come to forcefully seize your private property

*sigh*

>>2129049
Yes*.

* = if the amount of money is large enough to make this worthwhile.

The capital gains tax in Spain is around 20% so do the math. Is 20% of $your_btc more than the cost of moving to let's say Estonia or Hungary for 6 months? Is it significantly more to offset the social costs of moving to a foreign country?

https://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/blevinsfranks/article/capital-gains-tax-spain

Honestly, do some googling. Find out how Spain handles crypto gains. Find out which country in the EU would be best. (Moving within the EU is pretty trivial for EU citizens). Then decide if it's worth your trouble.

>>2129134
I heard that crypto isn't taxed in Denmark

>>2127341
Wait, I won't have to pay taxes at all if I went to somewhere like the Netherlands and cashed out there right? I could even buy a shit shack there and claim to live there. Tax avoidance is legal afterall, but tax evasion isn't.

>>2129010
If you travel with the intent to do that, it's probably some kind of fraud. Interstate = feds.

>>2129116
Amen.

>>2129124
Yes, and look how burger education standard went down the drain.

>>2129124
and its shit

whats your point?

>>2129083
yeah it looks like I was totally wrong about this. It appears that you do have to declare trades as a sale of the asset and thus pay capital gains on it.

>>2127393
tfw live in a shit tier country but capital gains tax is 10% ;')

>>2127393
tax is 18% to and 32% over $23k profit here in polan

>>2127986
brb moving to NZ

Will DGB eventually stabalize in price, or should I convert it to BTC and keep it stored like that?

>>2129494

Added bonus: less fallout when the stupid hemisphere starts lobbing nukes.

>>2129086
I know that feel, I calculate it too every year and 2015 I even got to 78% because I bought a car and real estate. VATs on cars here in Austria are 36-50% and my vehicle tax is higher than my car insurance.