/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>21034503
Payroll is a different tax that your employer pays

>>21034503
payroll tax, dumbass
this helps corporations, not workers

>>21034503
they fucking destroyed my job what the fuck is this going to do for me? how bout get rid of capital gains tax at least asshole i fucking hate this president where is my 600 dollars??? i dont have a job to go back to they closed permanently

>>21034503
If that were true, he'd get assassinated within the week.

Based and redpilled

>>21034557
good, fuck you

>>21034557
just get a CDL and quarantine on the road

If I'm a neet that never had a job do I still get my payroll taxes back?

"Payroll taxes are taxes imposed on employers or employees, and are usually calculated as a percentage of the salaries that employers pay their staff. Payroll taxes generally fall into two categories: deductions from an employee's wages, and taxes paid by the employer based on the employee's wages."

>no more taxes
>meaning either we completely gut the government's budget or it runs out of money and collapses and we have full anarchy
i guess trump was a liberal all along huh

btw anyone who still supports the retard is an even bigger retard

>>21034542
I'm sure it will trickle down though, right?

>>21034503
this will be bad for labor without corresponding wage/salary increases, since this tax is payed by the employer. This is not income tax. And no, the vast majority of labor will not get pay raises out of this.

Reagan dramatically boosts payroll tax, wages get slashed vs cost of living. Trump cuts payroll tax, wages stay the same but the public lose services. Such is the life of the wagecuck.

>>21034699
Thats the most based and anti liberal thing ever.
liberals want to tax you so hard that you need to rely on government you absolute retard.

>>21034771
Oh of course, we'll all be praising our president soon enough!

Taxes BTFO. This is a big boost, implying employers don't gut wages in response

>>21034542
>>21034528
"Perhaps one of the best-kept secrets of payroll taxes is that employees effectively pay almost the entire payroll tax, instead of splitting the burden with their employers.

This is because tax incidence is not determined by law, but by markets. In fact, the person who is required to pay a tax to the federal government is often different than the person who bears the tax burden. Usually, the marketplace decides how the tax burden is divided between buyers and sellers, based on which party is more sensitive to changes in prices (economists call this “relative price elasticities”).

It turns out that the supply of labor – that is, workers’ willingness to work – is much less sensitive to taxes than the demand for labor – or employers’ willingness to hire. This is because workers who need a job are not as responsive to changes in wages, but businesses are able to “shop around” for the best workers or shift production to different locations. The graph below roughly illustrates how the labor market distributes the payroll tax burden. The fact that the labor supply line is steeper than the labor demand line is a way of showing that workers are less sensitive to changes in wages than employers."

>>21034873
https://taxfoundation.org/what-are-payroll-taxes-and-who-pays-them/

>>21034771
KEK

>>21034873
imagine still following this religion after you're 20

>>21034557
deliver my food wagie! i'm hungry!

I dont get how anyone is defending trump. The virus was his fault and the economy is his fault

>>21034503
Why do they need us to pay taxes if the fed can print infinite money without consequence? Hello?

>>21034971


https://bigsolution.org/

>>21034873
>>21034873
were in the midst of an unemployment crisis and a stock glut. Cutting corporate taxes will not raise wages, but it will keep the stock market moving for a little longer before collapse, since what would have been taxed can be funneled into dividends to keep shareholders happy. Eventually shareholders are gonna mass exodus into hard assets when dividends and growth fail to keep up.

>>21034542
>this helps corporations, not workers

It's amazing how financially illiterate people on /biz/ are.

Payroll taxes are almost entirely paid by workers. Corporations bake their payroll tax obligations into lower wages offered to workers. Further, the FICA cap means that not only are payroll taxes paid by workers, but they disproportionately hit lower-paid workers, since income above $130,000 or so isn't taxed.

>>21034970
Your mom shoulda aborted you

>>21034873
this

payroll tax in theory puts some of the workers tax burden on the company but the company still fucking pays the workers salaries

all payroll taxes did was reduce the workers tax while ALSO reducing their salaries, it made no difference what so ever in the end

>>21034970
>The virus was his fault

>>21034503
So theoretically if income tax is indeed canceled, I should withdraw all my crypto purchased within the last year, right? Because less than a year holding = short term gains and gets counted as income tax, right? And then just put it right back into crypto with zero cost basis?

>>21034503
these niggers better roll out the stimmy bux soon cuz i need to buy more gold with money i didnt work for

>>21034970
>China has a lab accident and looses a bioweapon on the world
>shuts off the epicenter city to the rest of China, literally blocks roads in and out of city with piles of rocks
>international flights continue uniterrupted

>entire world gets rekt by virus
>that includes the United States
>NY, anticipating full hospitals and a hideous death toll among the elderly, callously orders sick patients into nursing homes in order to free up hospital beds for younger healthier people
>overwhelmed hospitals never materialize, instead thousands of elderly are killed
>NYC doesn't even clean their subways until May, let alone stopping them
>20% of all US deaths are in NY

>damn you, drumpf!

>>21034503
that settles it, i'll vote for the cheeto

>>21034873
>"Perhaps one of the best-kept secrets of payroll taxes is that employees effectively pay almost the entire payroll tax, instead of splitting the burden with their employers
but is your point that the tax burden will be lifted off of workers? cuz it sure isnt.

>>21034557

Jesus fucking christ bro just buy a few Bitcoins

>>21034771
no anon it wont. they will literally pocket the money and your pay stays the same as if they paid your tax for you when they pay you.

>>21034557
>i fucking hate this president
That's a weird way of spelling "congress"

>>21034845
pure leftism is full on anarchy you education-let

>>21034542
WRONG you brainlet
Employees will see about a 7% raise in their checks if Trump goes through with this.

>>21034503
is there anyone still supporting this faggot? He obviously not looking out for u

>>21034503
u absolute nigger. payroll...

>>21035300
>pure leftism is full on anarchy you education-let

lmao what

When will I get another stimmy I need more ARPA

>>21035465
yeah dude, i cant even respond to that dude. lol

>>21035409
>>21035431

The amount of you idiots out there is astounding.

>>21034970
Interesting it stopped being Obama's economy as soon as the pandemic started...

>>21035539
look at this butthurt

>>21035290
Most companies put the taxes on your payroll. They'd have to literally cut your wages, or admit that they are paying themselves with your money

>>21035465
>>21035511
lol nice image you probably grabbed off /pol/ or facebook
i'm sure your youtube education trumps people with poli sci & econ degrees

in case you hadn't noticed - trump has been anything but small government. he's literally sending in federal agents to kidnap protesters all over the county. you guys are fucking retarded.

>>21035465
Anarchy paves the way to full scale privatization. Fallout-enclaves style.

>>21034503
is we be getting a 2nd stimulus check or nah???

>>21035227
They already cut employer side payroll taxes. These fuckers need to stop employee side too.

>>21035555
Nice quads but yeah how WOULD it be obama's economy when he hasn't been president for four years you dumbfuck.

>>21034542

Bingo.

Some businesses may pass on the saved expenses to the employee but I doubt many will.

>>21035343
Why would the business owner give this extra profit to his employee? especially if there are tens of millions of unemployed people looking for a job?

>>21034557
You had 3 years

>>21035625
>poli sci & econ degrees

KEK

>>21034970
>this is your average /biz/ iq
can't wait to see all you stinky linkies blow your money in a year and go to jail for tax evasion

>>21034557
start a lets play on youtube

>>21035645

Yeah, anarchy leads immediately to despotism, but anarchy itself is the ultimate right-wing situation.

>>21035625
>drumpf!

Trump's a moderate Republican, always has been.

>he's literally sending in federal agents to kidnap protesters all over the county.
>kidnap
>protestors

If you are stupid enough to vandalize federal property on video/livestream, don't be surprised when the feds arrest you.

>>21035511
>omg i can't even, like, wow

It's the truth, unless you buy into Trotsky's hilarious Horseshoe concept of politics, which was invented by Communists in the 1920s who got tired of being asked, if Fascism was so absolutely evil and unlike Communism in every way, they sound pretty much exactly the same, except in Fascism you can own property and choose your own job and where you live. Both are totalitarian systems, just in Communism the state controls 100% of everything economic and in Fascism the state controls 80%. The opposite of totalitarianism is anarchism, not slightly less totalitarianism.

>>21034699
You absolute brainlet, holy shit.

>>21034503
I like the sentiment, but there is no practical way for payroll departments/companies to switch on a dime to not collect and account for it. I don't even know what that would look like. It would be chaos.

>>21035823
it would be different if unemployment was low. then cutting payroll tax would probably be good for labor, especially if offset by an income tax increase among high brackets/new tax brackets above the 37% bracket taxed at a higher rate/an increase in the long term capital gains tax rate.

but cutting payroll taxes right now wont mean shit for labor given the job market

>>21034873
>>21034902
If payroll tax is cut and wages don't go up what will you do? What excuse will you use? Will you just ignore it when as you always do or blame something else?

>>21034503
This does nothing. You realize that trillions of dollars in demand have collapsed, right? Payroll tax cut does nothing to prop up demand. The collapsing demand will continue to destroy businesses. If he doesn't get cash directly into the hands of average Americans, this economy is going fully under. Demand side is all that matters right now.

>>21035719
Thats his point dicklick. Libtards were trying to credit every good thing about Trumps economy to Obama but as soon as it went to shit its Drumpfs fault.

>>21035164
This has nothing to do with income tax

>>21034503
If you're self employed do you get your money back from your quarterly payments, are you just fucked?

>>21035343
You really think employers are going to raise wages because of this? You're delusional

>>21035465
>>21035300
Its not a line you retard it's a circle and advanced leftism is fascism wrapped in fake social progress most of the time.

>>21036428
He has stupid fucks like Kudlow and Laffer advising him. They have no fucking clue how precarious the economy is nor how to keep it from toppling.If they don't prop up demand, then more bussinesses will permanently shut. This is the one time where literal helicopter money is warranted.

>>21035164
He is expanding treasury, secret service, and homeland security for crypto in his q1 2021 budget proposal.

You better hurry

>>21036558
nigger what?

>>21034970
It’s only the low iq on here they probably all have xrp too lmao

>>21034836
>>21034873
>paid by the employee through lower wages
>wages won't rise when the tax is gone
Soooo it is literally paid by the employer then good job

>>21035096
You fucking dumbass it’s not going to trickledown. Trump is effectively giving a gift to big corporate while getting nothing in return. Biz doesn’t operate on being nice it operates on profits

>>21036862
There are no profits if people don't have money for to buy stuff. If demand craters, so goodbye to your business.

>Less Taxes
+
>More Spending
=
>Money Printing

>the newsman doesn't understand how percentages work
I fucking hate this bullshit. Who actually still believes the media isn't owned by a globalist cabal

>>21036650
>Its not a line you retard it's a circle and advanced leftism is fascism wrapped in fake social progress most of the time.

No, it's a line. You only have to bend it into a circle if you accept the insane Communist lie that fascism is somehow the opposite of Communism, when it is in fact almost functionally identical just with slightly less state control.

The opposite of totalitarianism is not slightly less totalitarianism. It's anarchy.

Like I said, this whole "fascism is right wing" thing was cooked up by Trotsky, who got tired of being asked why, if Communism was so great and Fascism was so evil, they seemed to be exactly the same, except under Fascism you could own stuff and choose your job and where you live.

>>21036993
LMAO absolute judaism

>>21036993

LEL

>a single worker earning $20,000 would get a 3.85% cut
>but a couple earning a combined $275,400 would get a 3.82% cut!

They went full apples to oranges and they STILL couldn't make the math fit the narrative, and then they just published it anyway!

>>21034771
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
STAY POOR

>>21034902
Checked and tragic pilled feels like I'm back in Econ crying about the world state and my inability to change anything

>>21037340
>>21037463
Maybe I'm a retard, but they're spinning this like it would somehow be a bad thing when as far as I can tell it would directly increase employee pay while making it cheaper for employers to hire people, which incentivizes... wait for it... hiring more fucking workers during a time when one of our biggest problems is that businesses aren't making money and can't afford to hire people. I'm honestly blown away by this. Can some economist explain to me how and why I'm a fucking retard?

>>21034970
the jews control the virus and the economy. trump is just a mascot (who has gone rogue)

>>21037675

whoa where is this from

>>21037779
Yesterday

>>21037630

Well, you see, Orange Man Bad.

The payroll tax should be either uncapped or abolished. The cap means it favors the wealthy, since only the first $130k of income is subject to it, and the cost of the tax is entirely passed onto workers through lower wages, benefits, and hours.

A good thing to remember is, in the 21st century, the news media is about 90% click/eyeball bait and the rest is political activism, with only as much relation to actual events as is absolutely necessary. Once you get that, it becomes much easier to make money.

>>21037779

Beirut, yesterday

>>21037675
And guess what coin the jews are buying?

i hope this goes through. then my employer will increase my wage :)

>>21034557
Removing income tax and raising capital gain tax would be the most based thing any leader could do.
together with closing the borders and promoting abortion, these things are deeply eucivilisational policies.

>>21037463
>>21035096
I didn't even notice that they switched it to married income holy fuck. This is insane to me. I can't believe how many lies they're spreading about what seems like a good populist policy to help with the economic crisis. Fuck me.

>>21035687
maaan dat tangerine lookin motha fucka better give us somthin

>>21034699
Moron

>>21037935
Agree with all except increasing capital gains taxes. Not giving more of my linkie gains to fund the destruction of my way of life

>>21035128
he wanted to shut down boarders first but people pushed back as "that's raycis"

>>21038099
Separate capital gains tax into two different taxes.

1. Options based taxes

2. Investment based taxes

Tax the people in gigantic companies with stock options and not people investing.

>>21037873
is the payroll tax separate from the income tax?
i think it is but holy fuck they tax you coming and going in this goddamn country

>>21034503
This would put Trumps election in the bag if he did this. I pay over 500 each check to federal taxes. It's a major rip off. Especially since we import almost everything these days. Tarrifs could replace this shit in a heartbeat.

>>21037960

It's pretty wild, the first time you understand that the news media doesn't "shade" or have a "sensationalist bias" but outright lies, knowingly lies, because they either need ratings or are trying to achieve a political goal.

I remember a couple years back reading the NYT and their grinning article about how, despite 90% of Americans having received a tax cut from Trump, 80% of Americans thought they didn't. The NYT called this "a triumph of Democratic messaging"

And I thought, "if only there were some organizations whose job it is to keep us informed of what's going on, instead of actually gloating that the overwhelming majority of us believe lies"

The good news is, there's plenty of actual indicators as to how things are going, and once you're free of the news media, you can make serious money.

Please orange man do good for me

>>21034528
That's still 6%. Would mean an extra 5k in my bank.

>>21038172
Totally ok with that on its face

>>21034542
Wrong faggot. Plebs know it as income tax. Government know it as payroll tax. It's the same shit. The money that your company withholds from your check to give to uncle sam. Source: me. I'm an accountant./Trust me bro

>>21034503
Sallie Mae lets me ask for as much money as I want for my student loans.
How high should I dare? My actual costs are prob ~19k. Shold I ask for 30? 40? 100?

>>21038238
I need to come back to this once I'm done being fucking livid. This is the first time I've ever been able to see and understand the media's bold faced lies. What are the actual indicators you're talking about btw?

>>21036993
Remember, Dems might talk about getting even with the 1%, but what they really want is to tax everyone except for the unemployed welfare leeches who vote Dem.

>>21034699
What is tarrifs for 500 Trebek. Now kys kike. PS. Didn't expect this when you moved all your shit to china huh? Seems that your top customer aka america has leverage over your company. You want socialism...there you go. Shalom.

>>21035823
>>21036626

I know this is hard for brainlets to understand but this is taxes. You don't get a raise if is removed you are technically paying less taxes on your wage which will cause you to have bigger checks because they are taking less taxes out.

>>21034528
>>21034542
wow you people are dumb

>>21036498
wages will stay the same, retard. it's just that we won't have as much money taken out in taxes. god this forum is dumb.

>>21038430
>>21038410
I didn't know anything about payroll taxes until 20 minutes ago and I figured it out with a 2 minute google search. I don't understand how people can be so willfully ignorant

>>21034699
We're already 26 trillion and debt and you're worried about another trillion going into the workers' pockets?

>>21036715
Yup, he is most likely buying in bulk and at the end of his second term he will endorse bitcoin and skyrocket that shit.

>>21034503
Trump is the absolute best

>>21038367

Stock indices are unironically good, if a little laggy. When the news was screaming about WW3 with Iran in January, markets were undisturbed -- rich people knew no such thing was going to happen. Understand that the market is very intelligent but very greedy and very cowardly, and you can infer stuff from there.

I hate to say it but /pol/ somehow forms a meta-intelligence that actually works. That which gets discussed there a lot, organically, actually seems to be newsworthy. I made a ton of money this spring just by swapping out my Boomer index funds into money market before the crash and then back on the way up. Other guys saw Wuhan locking down and shorted Apple stock. They made a fortune.

Despite being an absolute cesspool, there are unironically great accounts on Twitter for forex, stocks, crypto, whatever you like. Adam Townsend is one of the most interesting traders/salesmen out there, Holonaire has an account (tj) for crypto, Michael's Trading Journal is great for stocks/forex/PM, etc.

But yeah, ignore the news media. Its purpose is not to inform you, but to keep you watching/clicking, and maybe to vote the way they want you to vote. It's not information and you should avoid it.

>>21036715
That tweet turns my rage on.

>>21035082
And that's when we dump out shiny rock bags on the wagies for the homes they can no longer avoid.

>>21035465
I like how modern conservatives have reinvented the political spectrum just like libs redefined racism to make everyone racist. Right and left wing has never referred to more or less state power.
>Nazi's are left wing I swear!

>>21034771

It always has anon, God bless the trickling

>>21038172
This is much more reasonable.
I don't see why the government should be able to siphon away the value offered to me by working hard, being vigilant and taking the risks I've taken.

>>21036498
Wages won't go up but expenses employers pay to hire people will go down, allowing them to hire more people or maybe not fire people they already employ. Also like the other guy said, you'll pay less taxes. Stop watching cable TV fucktard.

>>21038349
if you could default i'd say "go balls out"
but that shit is forever, anon

>>21038835
I still don't get it.
How do I, as an employee, pay for payroll tax? How could this possibly affect me?

>>21038707
>Right and left wing has never referred to more or less state power.

Yes, it has, and did until Trotsky came up with the hilarious idea that fascism is somehow right-wing. If you stop and think about it for even a second, you'd realize this.

Left = more state power. Leftism: Government should do more for more people
Right = less state power. Conservatism: Smaller government

That's what it's always been. The opposite of totalitarianism (total state control of everything) is anarchy (no state). The opposite of totalitarianism is not slightly less totalitarianism, and accepting that insane system requires you to have a spectrum that goes.

Communism - socialism - liberalism - centrism - conservatism - libertarianism - anarchism - Fascism, where you start with totalitarianism and then get less and less and less government as you go right, until after "literally no government" suddenly you're at a giant totalitarian state again.

>>21038891
yep

>>21038875
>How do I, as an employee, pay for payroll tax? How could this possibly affect me?

Because the employer passes 100% of the costs of the payroll tax onto you, in the form of lower wages, benefits, and hiring.

And, since the payroll tax is capped at 130k, it hilariously is a tax on lower and middle-income workers. Income above 130k is tax-free, as far as FICA's concerned.

>>21038875
ya know how when you get paid you pay state and federal income taxes and then there's a bit for medicare and social security that comes out of your paycheck? THAT is payroll tax. You pay payroll tax. It comes out of your paycheck every time you get paid. Twice a month. You pay this tax. Your employer has to match the amount that you pay, so it becomes an expense directly tied to the worker, and rather than let that make you more expensive to employ, they just lower your wages to compensate. Do you get it now bud?

>>21038875
Think of it as a cost the company pays to the government for hiring you. Cost goes down = it is cheaper to hire and continue to employ workers.

>>21038577
Based divine dubs. Thanks for the tip wise-anon. Good to know there's actually people that know things on this board.

>>21038966
>>21038985
>>21038991
I thought that was the answer. Thanks.
Isn't it funny how, no matter how the tax is implemented, the only people that pays for it is the lowest denomination?
It's almost like taxes are pointless...

>>21039229
Income taxes were introduced as a temporary wartime measure and then shoehorned into policy with a bs amendment, and that was after the supreme court ruled them as being unconstitutional. Also sorry for being kind of a dick I thought you were the troglodyte I was responding to and I'm heated about this.

>>21038891
right wing governments aren't any less authoritarian than left wing governments. How authoritarian a government is independent of traditional right and left wing. You can have a government that is right wing or left wing and super authoritarian. Right wing death squads of chile where pretty authoritarian to me. The political spectrum right and left wing was traditionally associated with right wing (keeping the status quo) vs left wing (more of the less politically advantaged). It wasn't trotsky you fucking retard. "Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere. " -Doctrines of fascism by pasta Hitler

>>21034625
Tesla is gonna make the trucker extinct or at least barely needed/paid shit.

>>21039297
income tax makes me so goddamn mad
>taxed making money
>taxed spending money
>taxed on capital gains
>taxed on any land, car, or valuable property you own
they fuck you in so many goddamn directions in this country

>>21034699
They printed more this year than all collected taxes. There's no point to paying taxes anymore.

ALL OF YOU ARE INVITED TO MY PARTY!!!!
>>21036689

>>21039319
>"Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

>Drawing on ideas of Adam Smith, classical liberals believed that it is in the common interest that all individuals be able to secure their own economic self-interest.[12] They were critical of what would come to be the idea of the welfare state as interfering in a free market.[13] Despite Smith's resolute recognition of the importance and value of labor and of laborers, classical liberals selectively criticized labour's group rights being pursued at the expense of individual rights[14] while accepting corporations' rights, which led to inequality of bargaining power.

>right wing governments aren't any less authoritarian than left wing governments.

Authoritarian governments aren't right wing. Those death squads in Latin America were "right wing" in the sense that they were anti-Communist, but that again is using the Communist political spectrum.

What differentiates fascism from Communism, other than some degree of economic freedom? Nationalism? If so, how are libertarians, who are to the right of conservatives, "nationalists" when they are globalist free traders? Was Stalin, with the whole "socialism in one country," policy, therefore a right-wing Communist?

If you think about it for even a second, it falls apart.

>>21038259
uhh... no lol. It will go to your employer and maybe they decide to give you a raise

>>21034503
you lucky fucks
>>>/pol/

>>21039528
You've re-invented the spectrum. Right and left wing originates from the french revolution. On the right were monarchists on the left were jacobins. The monarchists weren't into freedom more you retard.
>Authoritarian governments aren't right wing. Those death squads in Latin America were "right wing" in the sense that they were anti-Communist,
sure man. All the bad governments aren't right wing authoritarian because of my new FREEDOM spectrum. Ask a nazi if he's right or left wing. Ask a anarchist the same. I guarantee you no nazi is going to identify as a leftist. Communism is authoritarianism of the right and fascism is authoritarianism of the left (see horsehoe).
>how are libertarians, who are to the right of conservatives
Libertarians aren't to the right of conservatives?

>>21039538
Payroll taxes are split 50/50. The boss might keep his 6%, but I would still keep mine.

>>21039843
>ommunism is authoritarianism of the right and fascism is authoritarianism of the left (see horsehoe).
whoops. meant communism is left and fascism is right

>>21034699
Taxes are just a redistribution scheme to take money from hardworking whites and put it in the hands of niggers. The government doesn't run out of money in any scenario because the central bank has been running the money supply for over 100 years.

>>21034503
I would be happier if he did this instead:
>double payroll tax
>abolish income tax

>>21039843
>You've re-invented the spectrum.

I've restored the spectrum. The current one doesn't make any sense.

How is the opposite of totalitarianism slightly less totalitarianism? That makes no sense.

>Libertarians aren't to the right of conservatives?

Where do they fit on the horseshoe, then? Everything libertarians want is what conservatives want, but even moreso. Conservatives talk about cutting budgets here and there, libertarians want the government drowned in a bathtub. Anarchists want no government at all.

So, if both ends of the horseshoe are authoritarianism, then the ideology farthest from any type of authoritarianism, which is minarchism/anarchism, must be the center. But centrists are not anarchists. The scale doesn't make snese.

>All State Power ( Communism - Fascism - Socialism - Liberalism - Centrism - Conservatism - Libertarianism - Anarchism) No State Power

This makes perfect and instant sense. The only reason anyone could object to it is because in their minds "left" or "right" equals "good" or "bad" -- power is morality-agnostic.

>>21040117
Restored the spectrum holy shit. How do you restore it from its original meaning just accept you re-invented it. During the french revolution on the right hand side of the assembly was monarchists (conservatives who wanted little change) and on the left were jacobins (who wanted radical changes).

>How is the opposite of totalitarianism slightly less totalitarianism? That makes no sense.
"The political horseshoe theory attributed to Jean-Pierre Faye highlights, if we travel far-left enough, we find the very same sneering, nasty and reckless bully-boy tactics used by the far-right. The two extremes of the political spectrum end up meeting like a horseshoe, at the top, which to my mind symbolizes totalitarian control from above. In their quest for ideological purity, Stalin and Hitler had more in common than modern neo-Nazis and far-left agitators would care to admit." Libratarians would be in the middle of the horseshoe.

>Everything libertarians want is what conservatives want, but even moreso.
libertarians are not exactly the same as conservatives. Libertarians are ok with abortion. conservatives want state mandated opposition to it. same with Weed.

On this site you see neo-nazi's joking about dumping trannys off of helicopters because they don't conform to their views. This is a right wing ideology wishing they had an authoritarian government like pinochet (who all evidence points to being very right wing as a military commander).

>>21040376
Monarchists are basically a non-entity today

>>21034902
Implying they won't keep taxing you the same and pocket the difference.

>>21040466
but monarchists certainly weren't "pro freedom" in their day. They represent conservative entrenched interests. The only reason people on the right re-invented the spectrum is they wanted to associate all bad governments with the left versus only anarchists on the far right. This is absurd since many self identified right wing groups if you ask them about their ideal government it turns out to be very authoritarian (just authoritarian in their favor).

>>21040376
>(conservatives who wanted little change) and on the left were jacobins (who wanted radical changes).

Which has absolutely nothing to do with current politics -- where do monarchists fit on the left-right scale?

>Faye
>philosopher who later decided he had been wrong about just about everything
> Libratarians would be in the middle of the horseshoe.

Stop and think about this. So libertarians and anarchists are centrists? Do you not understand how impossible that is? The scale in the center goes from Bill Clinton to ABOLISH THE STATE to Gerald Ford? And then the extreme ends, which should be opposites are two ideologies that are functionally identical?

>Libertarians are ok with abortion. conservatives want state mandated opposition to it. same with Weed.

Yes, libertarians wanting less state intervention is why they're to the right of conservatives on the power scale. Further, even these specific American political bits are still wrong -- support for marijuana legalization is almost as high with Republican voters as Democrats. And polls of black Americans, the strongest and most consistent Democratic demo, on LGBT rights would horrify you.

>This is a right wing ideology wishing they had an authoritarian government like pinochet (who all evidence points to being very right wing as a military commander).

Again, if your only definition of "right wing" is "anti-Communist" then sure. But that's the Communist's definition of "right wing." In reality, the only way you can make fascists right-wing is by creating this hilarious horseshoe where the opposites are the same and entire mainstream ideologies can't be represented.

>>21034542
I hope your skull gets cracked open.

>>21040584
>they wanted to associate all bad governments with the left versus only anarchists on the far right.

lmao there it is

>I mean, Stalin killed a lot of people
>and Mao's massacres made him look like a kindly grandmother
>and Pol Pot would've made them ALL look like kittens except he only had 4 million people to kill
>but Hitler? Nothing to do with us!
>I mean, Hitler and Stalin both had death camps, and secret police, and total control over the state, and the army, and had a powerful paramilitary force that answered directly to them, and both controlled the media and basically every facet of social and public life,
>but when the guy with the SMALL mustache did it, it was completely different!
>how?
>well, it just was!

Industrialized slaughter of innocents can only be carried out by powerful governments, it's true. But there's plenty of potential for mass horrible death in minarchist situations. Look at Rwanda.

>>21036993
this sums up half the thread who have no economics knowledge but grew 5 years passed elementary school and 5 years passed highschool and feel obligated enough to commit to their opinion. yet jobs are created by big money spenders, and jobs are created by the wealthy, and that noone can invest as much into their company when the government is busy stealing

>>21040627
no u.

>>21040598
>where do monarchists fit on the left-right scale?
>>21040584

>libertarians and anarchists are centrists?
libertarians are centrists since they have both right and left wing positions. anarchists are leftist.

>support for marijuana legalization is almost as high with Republican voters as Democrats. And polls of black Americans, the strongest and most consistent Democratic demo, on LGBT rights would horrify you.
My point is the political platforms of right wing politicians often supports more authoritarian measures. Very right wing individuals often want: No abortions (state mandated), No islam (state mandated), Christianity mandatory in schools (state mandated). Its just authoritarianism that is more in line with their moral communities. There are people on the right who are anti-authoritarian but then again there are people on the left who are the same.

>Again, if your only definition of "right wing" is "anti-Communist" then sure. But that's the Communist's definition of "right wing." In reality, the only way you can make fascists right-wing is by creating this hilarious horseshoe where the opposites are the same and entire mainstream ideologies can't be represented.
That "hilarious horeshoe spectrum" has existed longer than the freedom right left spectrum right wingers just invented. The idea that an authoritarian government cannot be right wing is absurd by the old spectrum. If you are going by the new spectrum that was just invented withing 10 years then yes its absurd. But then modern liberals and conservatives are both left wing (support authoritarianism over different shit). The only right wing part of the spectrum is libertarians and anarchists.

>>21035201

Did the boomers seriously think they could just realize their pensions and live happily ever after? This was always the plan, right from the start.

>>21040713
Hitler, mussolini, and numerous south american dictatorships were more right wing than left wing. How authoritarian a government is is largely independent of right or left wing. Centralized state power is independent of the traditional political spectrum.

>>21040984
>libertarians are centrists since they have both right and left wing positions. anarchists are leftist.

lmao, so your political scale literally goes from Bill Clinton to ABOLISH THE STATE to Gerald Ford. Do you not understand how ridiculous that is?

>Very right wing individuals often want: No abortions (state mandated), No islam (state mandated), Christianity mandatory in schools (state mandated). Its just authoritarianism that is more in line with their moral communities. There are people on the right who are anti-authoritarian but then again there are people on the left who are the same.

You're confusing Christian "conservatives" with real conservatives.

>The idea that an authoritarian government cannot be right wing is absurd by the old spectrum.

The old spectrum is itself absurd. It makes its opposites identical, which makes the very concept of the ends ridiculous, and can't represent libertarianism without making the center ridiculous. And it takes increasing mental convolutions to defend it against basic questions.

The real political spectrum encompasses every ideology easily, and their relationships to each other make perfect sense.

>>21041041
>Hitler, mussolini, and numerous south american dictatorships were more right wing than left wing. How authoritarian a government is is largely independent of right or left wing.

>totally different?
>how?
>it just is!

>>21038509
>pic related

>>21039349
do you think our military budget and shit comes from nothing?

>>21035082
You think "corporate taxes" is just for Apple and Amazon but you're forgetting that literally EVERY small business in America is also a corporation.
Payroll taxes will at least in some way help the worker.
Besides wtf do we even need any taxes for? We just print all the money anyways.

>>21041108
>you're confusing Christian "conservatives" with real conservatives.
no true scotsman fallacy
>The old spectrum is itself absurd. It makes its opposites identical
its not absurd its how political parties have represented themselves since the french revolution. The horshoe definition is a commentary on right and left with the idea that fanatics on the right and left lead to more authoritarian governments make sense. Only people in the middle of the spectrum want a government that tolerates people of different ideologies.
>the real political spectrum encompasses every ideology easily, and their relationships to each other make perfect sense.
its a transparent way to try and associate political opposition (since you are clearly conservative) with all the bad governments in history. I recommend you read Origins of political order by francis fukuyama.

>>21041122
right wing authoritarian governments are: crush labor unions, against minimum wage, culture wars (against feminism, gay rights etc), nationalism, religious conformism, and often race/class supremacy.
Left wing authoritarians: everyones equal under the state, no religion, worker solidarity, more globalist, more embracing of feminism etc.

>>21034699
Lol.. since when did modern liberals advocate for less taxes??

>>21041122
oh and lastly commies are more against capitalists/industrialists while fascists are typically aligned with these interests

>>21041511
arent fascists generally economic center or am i misinformed

Just bought 1 ethereum, hopefully its not a moneypit and puts up a quick gain

>>21034503
based commie deficit orange man
burn the usd into the ground and nuke the chinks

>>21041553
historically both pasta hitler and hitler aligned themselves with industrialists and capitalists as a defense against the socialists. So they were able to say "we will defend your enterprise against the commies if you support us." Then when they gained power they kind of merged state and industry to a large extent.

>>21041451
Massive deficit spending is a liberal thing migapede

My nuts are getting road rash on DPHC, are any of you still locked in?