/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>20384898
It always has.
If you understand the importance of privacy, you understand the importance of Monero.

>>20384898
cryptoboomer coin, won't moon ever again

>>20384942
Looks like it's maybe gonna pump though

Buy back in at 69

>>20384978
Boomer coins won't moon anytime soon but profitable for swinging

>>20385040
what's a good coin for mooning rn?

>>20385396
Xmr

token not needed

>>20384898
It will moon ironically because I sold my last XMR yesterday

>>20384898
yes. the real flippening will be btc to xmr as chainanalysis becomes more prominent. coinbase just sold the secret service their chain tracking tech.
also, it's literally cheaper to remain anonymous. pic related.
bitcoin maximalists must undergo denial first.

>>20386474
thank you for your sacrifice. looks like it is already working.

>>20384978
>cryptoboomer coin
what other darknet markets exclusively accept a cryptoboomer coin other than btc? that's what i thought.
don't forget where btc started. even if you genuinely believe it won't moon i strongly advise you to hold 10-20 so you don't kill yourself in a few years.

Monero base layer scales like shit because of its transaction sizes. The more volume it gets the more centralized it will become. This is why btc with coinswap/join and lightning will be private enough for 99% of users

>>20384898
Fuck off boomer link is the only coin u need

GHOST will be the death of Monero. It will be a couple years before that happens though.

>>20387045
No it doesn’t. Dynamic block size and tail emission are fantastic work arounds. We also have blocks every two mins. Transaction sizes are down 80% because of bulletproofs and will continue to go down after the next transaction update (clsag)
>>20387106
How’re those bags feeling raj?

>>20387045
>This is why btc with coinswap/join and lightning will be private enough for 99% of users
Those people telling you this are lying to you. Sorry bro.

>>20387045
>Monero base layer scales like shit because of its transaction sizes
your fud is about 2 years old, bulletproofs reduced this by LITERALLY 90%

0xMR- Get in the life raft

>>20384978
It moons when the overall market moons

>>20388486
Yeah down from ~10kb per transaction down to ~3kb. Meanwhile average btc size is like 250 bytes, literally like 10x smaller.
If xmr had the same transaction loading as btc its blockchain would be enormous and centralize the network as full nodes start disappearing

>>20388261
New coinswap techniques are literally almost perfect privacy, use that to fund a lightning channel and you have anonymous coins being able to spend with onion routed payments that nobody knows the source or destination for except you and receiver. I'm not saying xmr privacy isn't better, I'm just saying that Bitcoin privacy is getting to the point where it is good enough and xmr won't be able to overcome that. Plus, xmr base layer scales like dogshit with huge sizes needed for the proofs. I say this with all respect to xmr because it's one of the best alts out there but it will always just be a niche use

>>20389149
>New coinswap techniques
They don't exist. Yeah maybe in a year once they've finished figuring it out and coding it we'll see if it actually works. Best case won't even be close to monero privacy.

These hacky methods of bitcoin privacy take many txs and end up being larger than more efficient xmr txs.

Xmr base layer scales. Btc base layer doesn't even scale like dogshit because it doesn't scale at all. Blocks are already full. Imagine if everyone started trying to do 10x as many txs on btc for a little bit of privacy. It's not going to happen.

>>20389515
Scaling is when you get more for less, not more for more. Increasing the blocksize and calling it "scaling" is top brainlet. Coinswap will work great especially with 2p ecdsa to hide the multisig in the giant anon set of all current btc transactions. I like monero but the btc setup is going to be good enough for most users is my point

>>20389149
>LN will have privacy

arent there scaling solutions for monero in work?

>>20389930
Tell me how it doesn't have privacy instead of posting a pic and acting like you won the argument

>>20389863
Lmao anon is actually trying to claim that a transparent base layer can have privacy equal to Moneros. They’ve already done studies about LN privacy and surprise surprise it is easily exploited. With the dark nets moving to XMR it’s clear what the free market has chosen for privacy.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.09432.pdf
Also it’s not just increasing the block size. Tail emission is a big fuckin deal and Bitcoin is going to have rising fees that are going to force people into Monero. It’s already happening with new dark net users remarking about Moneros lower fees. These fees will stay low in the long term compared to bitcoin.

>>20387848
I bought @ 80¢ so I’m pretty comfy desu.

>>20389863
>Scaling is when you get more for less
Wrong.

>Definition of scale-up
>: an increase according to a fixed ratio

No one is going to run a full btc node when they're not transacting on it directly and they won't be doing that because even now when fuck all people care about btc at all, let alone use it, fees are too high for normal people. The blocks are too small to ever onboard everyone to lightning. There is no defence for btcs tiny blocks. The logical end point for btc is bitcoin banks. You could fit about 1000 banks settling accounts daily with btcs blocksize. Your limiting the network to 1000 entities so they can run their banks with raspberry pis.

>>20390043
I'll say privacy at scale.

With the liquidity problem of LN will always lead to custodial services. Mass adoption will never happen with a 1MB block limit. this will make the baselayer unusable, making custodial LN wallets the big deal, (assuming BTC is even a thing in the future)

Using custodial wallets means you most likely will have to KYC yourself. at least under certain jurisdictions.

however, if you already have BTC locked up in LN channels, Routing gets solved (NP problem thats not solvable. Traveling salesman hasn't been solved, and LN is way worse than that) and you want to swap with someone using XMR, sure.

LN is an unsolvable problem

>>20390515
Liquidity of lightning is getting better all the time. I haven't had a failed payment in over a year and now all lightning implementations have multipath payments. Once schnorr is activated on the base layer then lightning can swap to PTLC over HTLC which makes it harder to deanonymize users. Couple that with tons of routing options like circular routes, hiding payments in fees, etc and lightning will be good enough for most users which is my whole point. Lightning is getting better at a rapid pace. I'm not saying xmr doesn't have better privacy, I'm saying btc will be good enough.

As for the blocksize, segwit was an increase. Blocks are currently over 2mb and still room to grow as more people swap to native segwit wallets. Increasing the blocks as soon as you have demand just ensures that your second layer never gets adopted, wallets never implement space saving features, exchanges never batch payments, etc. Bitcoin will have to increase it at some point but right now paying $2 to be on the most decentralized and secure ledger is a good trade-off. Small block size with moderate fees is how you protect the 21mil cap which is the most important quality of Bitcoin. People need to be able to run nodes to validate consensus rules are being followed or miners can mint coins out of thin air. Also, why choose to store your wealth in a currency with tail emission?

>>20388991
That's why they implemented pay 2 rpc for monero nodes.
This incentivized honesty scheme works to decentralize the network by paying the monero nodes.

More details: https://www.monerooutreach.org/stories/RPC-Pay.html

>>20391005
irs will track lightning
https://enegnei.github.io/This-Month-In-Bitcoin-Privacy/July_2020/

>>20391005
There will be less monero than bitcoin until the year 2040. Tail emission is not a bad thing. It’s a small planned inflation that rewards miners.
And while you may think it is “good enough” the dark net is overwhelmingly turning to Monero. People don’t go to privacy and then go back to “good enough”, especially when one is much better than the other.
Besides, lightning network already has privacy! You can use xmr.to to send Monero to a bitcoin address using the lightning network.

>>20391321
Bitcoin is not going away and will always be accepted on the dark market. For normal use, btc privacy techniques will be fine. It's better to store your wealth over time in btc and if you need to hire a contract killer or buy 1000kg of coke then sure consider a monero swap. For casual people buying a few grams of weed btc will always be accepted and will continue to be ubiquitous and hold it's value better than other coins (50% drawdown from ath is much better than 95%)

XMR is comfy until GHOST is finished, then XMR is finished. GHOST to replace bitcoin 2022

>>20388991
>If xmr had the same transaction loading as btc its blockchain would be enormous and centralize the network as full nodes start disappearing
i run a full node. this fud isn't gonna work anon.

>>20391721
kek go home, John

>>20391690
Lol you have no idea what you are talking about if you think the dark net isn’t transitioning to Monero. Look at the daily transaction charts. I agree that Bitcoin isn’t going away any time in the crypto universe but every dark net forum is shooting down people talking about bitcoin tumblers as a means to privacy.
But seriously, do you actually think chain analysis isn’t going to get better? You are delusional, or probably blissfully ignorant if you think so.
Also just saying Monero should be for drugs is a dead giveaway you are a normie bootlicker. They said the same thing about Bitcoin when it first came into popularity. Monero is more than just a drug coin. It is a hedge against passice dragnet surveillance and it had far more use cases than bitcoin because of its privacy.

>>20391690
People using Bitcoin over the Darknet are starting to have their front doors smashed in at 5AM by feds. It's already happening. CIA/MI6/FBI/DEA/IRS are all tracking Bitcoin transactions back to Fiat gateways right now with a high success rate.

>>20391792
Because it doesn't have the same daily transactions as btc. Can you read? Xmr chain grows 10x faster than btc if it had btc volume

>>20386513
Haha I'm laughing and seething at once fuck me

>>20392276
What is pruning
What is a terabyte hard drive
What is asic resistance (which, if we are talking about decentralization, is likely why the monero community is so united with hard forks)

>>20392059
>>20392194

How come none of you shills ever understand that everything in life has tradeoffs? I've already admitted that xmr does privacy better than btc and likely always will have better privacy. Btc privacy is getting better whether you like to admit it or not though, and btc base layer doesn't grow even 1/10th as fast as xmr does. It also means the supply is fully auditable and if an inflation bug occurs it will instantly be noticed, unlike other hidden coins like zcash having inflation bugs exploited. You actually don't even know for certain the real supply of xmr, only what you think it should be. Also you won't admit what downsides node centralization brings with that base layer growth rate because you aren't intellectually honest.

Pros and cons to EVERY coin you dumb faggots

>>20392423
The more people that prune and use fast sync, the less people keeping archive nodes and fully validating from genesis. The less people with archive nodes, the easier to attack the coin. This shit is simple, try to think it through. Literally everything in life has tradeoffs

>>20392423
Imagine thinking that hard forking constantly to keep asic resistance means you are decentralized. Holy shit the level of retardation. Also tb hdd don't mean shit when fully validating means cpu cycles and bandwidth, that's the real issue with a growing chain

>>20392692
>Btc privacy is getting better..
Enjoy your honeypot

>>20392692
you came in a monero general talking about how "coinswap is near perfect privacy" and "monero baselayer scales like shit" and the LN will render XMR useless, and that XMR is only used by people who are drug addicts, and that XMR has an infinite supply and literally every other lame ass FUD that stinky pajeets throw at us constantly. You literally have ELEVEN replies in this general. It is extremely clear you are projecting against this coin because you know deep down that we are stealing Bitcoin's userbase.
First, Bitcoin's privacy is shit. It sucks. Once you know somebodies address you know everything about their transaction history. It just takes one slip up. And people are starting to figure this out and they are going to XMR.
Second, XMR's supply is auditable. This is done in two ways. The first is with key images, and the second is with bulletproofs. When you run a node, you confirm these transactions.
Third, if exploits do happen, because the community is united we ill hard fork to whatever community consensus is reached (Bitcoin and Ethereum have both hard forked and are doing fine).
Fourth, the decentralization regarding asic resistance is that any average person can mine monero.A layman with a shit computer can mine Monero. Their no barrier to entry that ASICs cause. Also, the community supports these hard forks.
Fifth, Monero is constantly improving node efficiency. Bulletproofs in 2018 reduced transactions by 80% and CLSAG will again further reduce transactions. Obviously the nodes require more up to date technology to handle the bigger transactions, but that is a necessary trade off so you aren't using a surveillance coin.
Sixth Pruning is a scaling solution to run a node. It is not meant to replace node
Seventh, it takes 12 hours to validate a node with an SDD, but this will improve over time as technology improves, as is already the case.

>>20393931
>First, Bitcoin's privacy is shit. It sucks. Once you know somebodies address you know everything about their transaction history. It just takes one slip up. And people are starting to figure this out and they are going to XMR.
Not true. Only if you reuse addresses or if you expose your hd wallet public key which anyone who wants to use Bitcoin for privacy will have a privacy focused wallet that doesn't reuse addresses or expose master public key. Yes there are user interface problems here but that is a general problem for all crypto
>Second, XMR's supply is auditable. This is done in two ways. The first is with key images, and the second is with bulletproofs. When you run a node, you confirm these transactions.
The supply is only auditable by proxy of these proofs not directly. This is why zcash had an inflation bug that went undetected for awhile and the longer it goes undetected the harder to revert it because the coins intermingle
>Third, if exploits do happen, because the community is united we ill hard fork to whatever community consensus is reached (Bitcoin and Ethereum have both hard forked and are doing fine).
This is only possible when your community is small and you are not securing nearly 200 billion. Constant hard forks to avoid asics do not scale to mass adoption because of the burden it puts on businesses, exchanges, users, etc
>Fourth, the decentralization regarding asic resistance is that any average person can mine monero.A layman with a shit computer can mine Monero. Their no barrier to entry that ASICs cause. Also, the community supports these hard forks.
Again this is only easy to do because xmr is still small. You cannot count on this long term if you want exponential increase of userbase

>>20394985
>Fifth, Monero is constantly improving node efficiency. Bulletproofs in 2018 reduced transactions by 80% and CLSAG will again further reduce transactions. Obviously the nodes require more up to date technology to handle the bigger transactions, but that is a necessary trade off so you aren't using a surveillance coin.
No argument here, glad to see them improving base layer and I actually like xmr for niche uses, but like all blockchains it still doesn't scale
>Sixth Pruning is a scaling solution to run a node. It is not meant to replace node
Pruning and sync should be avoided as much as possible because it introduces trusted parties and less people to sync from genesis from
>Seventh, it takes 12 hours to validate a node with an SDD, but this will improve over time as technology improves, as is already the case.
Again, only possible while the chain is small. Xmr is less equipped to handle an exponential user base increase because nodes can't handle it. I'm not saying btc is either because the fees will spike insanely high, but the decentralization of the network won't be affected. Basically btc can preserve its properties of censorship resistance because of its small blocks

>>20394985
>Only if you reuse addresses
Wrong. Once you get Bitcoin from any KYC you immediately expose yourself to whatever KYC chain analysis is watching. And acting like somebody should constantly remake bitcoin addresses to avoid this is not realistic. As you have said, people are going to continue to use bitcoin regardless of the privacy right? So anybody that cares about privacy is going to go to automatically go to Monero because it is baked into the base layer and easy for everybody. Over time, this will result in a large userbase, bc once you go to privacy you won't go back.
>The supply is only auditable by proxy of these proofs not directly.
True, but I could say that Bitcoin or Ethereums supply is auditable in the same manner. Just because it is transparent doesn't mean that exploits can still not happen. Consider the dao attack. I can't defend Monero against hypothetical worst case scenarios, but based on the history of BTC or ETH, a bug is not the end of the world and if anything strengthens a community.
> Constant hard forks to avoid asics do not scale to mass adoption because of the burden it puts on businesses, exchanges, users
Once a year is constant? Monero also frequently implements updates anyway that improve privacy, such as the recent dandelion ++ updgrade. And Monero UX is improved dramatically since the last bull run. Cake wallet, for example, is extremely popular to dark net users.
>Again this is only easy to do because xmr is still small.
True but there is also a tech barrier that keeps normies out.
> because it introduces trusted parties and less people to sync from genesis from
Monero pruning is a little different. It condenses the blockchain randomly. It's not as secure as a full node however.

>Xmr is less equipped to handle an exponential user base increase because nodes can't handle it.
If Monero were to go to 500k per day transactions over night the devs would revert to looking at scaling solutions primarily instead of privacy. This is talked about a lot with the dev team, but they are constantly walking a tight line between privacy and scaling. And like I said the CLSAG update is targetting this specifically (also in the recent wallet update sync time went down about 15% for bulletproof verification).
So yes this is something that is constantly being looked at. A tradeoff as you correctly said, but it is hardly a dealbreaker.

In the twitter hack address

>>20395776
wtf is this real? link

>>20395852
https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/bc1qxy2kgdygjrsqtzq2n0yrf2493p83kkfjhx0wlh?page=1

>>20395546
>>20395749

Some good points anon and I don't feel like continuing the discussion. I believe btc is the best way to secure your wealth and it preserves its properties of decentralization with small base layer the best, despite high fees. I'm also bullish on btc privacy over the long run, I believe in the ability to solve problems and ux improvements. I will say that I'm looking into xmr mining to increase my small xmr stack, however I'm probably going to swap it into kyc-free Bitcoin anyway. Best of luck to monero, I hope we all make it one day

>>20395990
I think it's highly possible, to take your perspective, that Monero lasts long term as a privacy layer for Bitcoin. We are already seeing it with the dark net. And when atomic swaps come along I think it could be a long term partnership. Good debate tho anon.
>>20395890
oh so a monero supporter sent Bitcoin to the scammer? Still based tho lol.

very comfy

>>20394985
Dude is telling BTC has privacy. What a joke. Answer me this: if your life depended upon the anonymity of a transaction, would you use XMR or BTC? You do know the answer, nobody would use BTC for important transactions.

If your coin isnt COMPLETELY private, then it has no privacy at all. No serious player that relies into privacy will use it. It is COMPLETELY retarded to say that a limited type privacy is enough.

>>20397356
limited privacy means your neighbour cant check which hooker you fucked last night and similiar cases. anything thats interesting for feds should be done with monero

>>20397444
Kind of, yes. But in 2 years you try to run for the senate, and coinbase finds out you payed for a 1 legged hooker back in the days and force their dicks into your butthole. Nice...

>>20397721
And in 5 years even if you didn't run for congress highly capable free Chain analysis sites will pop up enabling every zoomer to figure out what you did.

>>20384985
check out LOKI

pretty damn comfy

>>20399299
LOKI is pretty based