/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>18960694

I agree with you that BTC is bad, but where I disagree is that governments will ban it. I think that governments and the mainstream media actually like BTC, which is why you see it talked about in the news so much, and that they want people to buy it in order to enslave us. See >>18955906.

>>18960730
>I think that governments and the mainstream media actually like BTC, which is why you see it talked about in the news so much
That's because it doesn't even remotely pose a threat to them. If Bitcoin was going to actually succeed at being competitive to fiat then governments would be terrified of it. The truth is that they know it's not going to replace fiat so they're not concerned about it.

>>18960809

Possibly. Perhaps the plan is to con the fiat sceptics into buying BTC, because a BTC crash is inevitable, and all those people will go bankrupt instead of buying gold and silver, which is the real revolution against the system. On the other hand, even if BTC succeeds, they can use it as a complement to FedCoin to enslave us.

>>18960694
What do you suggest?

>>18960694
Because you are wrong about everything and refuse to step outside of your echo-chamber. BTC is fine and will absolutely ass-rape you in the end.

>>18961053
As an alternative to BTC? Nothing. I think BTC's use case is inherently flawed.

>>18961111
>1111
But anyway you're wrong. I've been surrounded by BTC maxis everywhere I go. Also not a single rebuttal to any of my points.

>>18960694
Idk, I like the idea behind it. You have a point. I'm either waiting until someone makes a proper currency or chilling until I can do it myself somehow. I'm keeping my money in there to get gains from the fact that it's deflationary and the trade volume is still pretty high.

Why are people not into BTC. Fuck the fed, fuck getting fucked by inflation year over year and wagecucking your life away so the economic nobility and live off your work. Why the fuck do people cling onto fucking fake, manipulated fiat? Working day in, day out to get fiat when the rich just fucking print it off a printing and pay you with it, so cucked.

>>18961272
>Fuck the fed, fuck getting fucked by inflation year over year and wagecucking your life away so the economic nobility and live off your work
>Why the fuck do people cling onto fucking fake, manipulated fiat

also this. my statements above still stand.

>>18961272
Again. As soon as BTC actually poses a threat to the dollar, you think the US government will just give up? No. It will be squashed well before then. Most people aren't even BTC for this reason and are just in it because they want to sell it for fiat at a higher price than they bought it.

>>18961215
>I'm keeping my money in there to get gains from the fact that it's deflationary
Other cryptos are deflationary except that also offer actual use cases.

>>18961193
Because you are tedious faggots who never learn and we got sick of explaining it to you for the past 5 years. Now you get to watch us demonstrate your error. Enjoy the ride.

>>18961328
>Other cryptos are deflationary except that also offer actual use cases.
Irrelevant, most of the money will always flock to BTC b/c normies.

It's that crypto shit nerds are talking about. So I went up to that fucking nerd and shoved him down and fucked his wife. Now I got the Bitcoins.

>>18961337

>>18961350
This is only true for the time being. When institutional money comes flooding in, it won't go into BTC. Normies will follow the institutional money.

>>18961337
Not an argument. I was once pro BTC but now it's clear it doesn't hold up anymore.

>>18960809
>governments would be terrified
the government is in debt to the banks because of fiat. i'm 100% certain you have no idea how any of this works.

>>18960694
This is absolutely brainlet tier fud. Read The Bitcoin Standard by Saifedean Ammous. Key terms to understand are strict scarcity and international/online settlements. Everything else is secondary.

>>18961421
Giacomo is that you

>>18961650
I'm 100% certain you're not understanding my point. Those in power significantly prefer fiat over Bitcoin. If there is a currency that destroys fiat it won't be Bitcoin. It simply cannot scale.

>>18961710
None of that is exclusive to Bitcoin and can easily be done by existing cryptos. Bitcoin does not have the technology to scale.

>>18961164

BTC's code was fundamentally broken by banks and financial institutions (Blockverse) so that the coin only works with second-layer technology which tracks your every move. It's not rebellion against the system, it is the system.

https://blog.plan99.net/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g

>>18961164

BTC's code was fundamentally broken by banks and financial institutions (Blockstream) so that the coin only works with second-layer technology which tracks your every move. It's not rebellion against the system, it is the system.

https://blog.plan99.net/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g

>>18961710

>Saifedean Ammous

Advocates for the flawed "digital gold" model, as if something can be like gold which has no intrinsic value and no use-case. BTC made its real growth from 2009-2015, when transactions were fast and cheap.

>>18960694
boomers

>>18962420
>>18962355
>>18962332
Increasing the blocksize isn't as novel as bitcoin was when it was first released. All these different bitcoin offshoots are doomed to fail. Unless you have a big feature with great functionality, good luck.

>>18962625

Satoshi himself hard-forked Bitcoin in the early days to fix a critical bug, and the 1 mb limit was a temporary measure implemented by him which he fully intended to keep raising.

https://archive.fo/L5yvP#msg15366


http://satoshinakamoto.me/2008/11/02/re-bitcoin-p2p-e-cash-paper/

Hence BCH isn't an offshoot; it is the real Bitcoin. It builds on the genesis block, has the original devs, the original community, and has intended from the first day to follow Satoshi's actual vision of decentralized, cheap, peer-to-peer cash.

>>18962723
Cope harder desu.

I have yet to hear an argument for BTC when hit with the China mining majority argument

>>18962764

Not an argument.

>>18962795
Your price and reality supports my statement. ETH shot up because it had a cool feature that had a ton of potential. BCH isn't going to be a thing. Especially with rodger ver and the fact that the size of a node will be gigantic. What's stopping it from being scaled to the point that BTC has and going the same route?

>>18962862
>What's stopping it from being scaled to the point that BTC
I meant when 5MB or w/e block sizes are too little.

>>18962862

Ethereum has problems with scaling (picture related), centralization (chain rollback after DAO hack), and inflation (to be determined); besides which, BCH has smart contract capability as well. But, yes, almost any coin is a better bet than BTC at this point.

>>18960694
>As soon as it starts to gain any traction governments will just ban any on and off ramps

Bullish as fuck since all trade will go to cash and we will be able to cash without taxes, plus exchanges being fucked means that shorting becomes impossible.

>>18960694
Governments have a vested interest in tracking citizens. If you have a KYCd fiat ramp the glowies have your withdrawal addresses

>>18963167
But who will want BTC at that point?

>>18963148
>Ethereum has problems with scaling (picture related), centralization (chain rollback after DAO hack), and inflation (to be determined)

That's not my argument. BCH brings nothing out of the ordinary to the table. I feel like it won't stick. Again, it will probably have scaling issues as well.

>>18963226

BCH is following Satoshi's real vision of Bitcoin. That's the most radical thing which you can possibly find. It was under that vision that Bitcoin had its real growth (2009-2015.)

Bitcoin Cash aims to be sound money. The primary aim of Ethereum is smart contracts.

>>18963226

>it will probably have scaling issues as well.

Forgot to address this. At best, BTC can handle 0.25 million transactions per day. BCH can handle 8.3 million, and has a roadmap to handle 50 transactions per day for ten billion people. If BCH had the traffic of BTC at its 2017 height, transactions would cost only one cent.

See what Satoshi himself had to say about scaling here. >>18962723

https://www.bitcoincash.org/roadmap.html

https://medium.com/scalar-capital/the-bitcoin-cash-story-e55b277491f9

https://medium.com/@johnblocke/a-brief-and-incomplete-history-of-censorship-in-r-bitcoin-c85a290fe43

https://medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/12-reasons-bitcoin-cash-is-the-real-bitcoin-8d5547988374

https://medium.com/@johnblocke/r-bitcoin-censorship-revisited-58d5b1bdcd64

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g

>>18963194

Who wanted gold when it was made illegal in USA?

>>18963334
One of these is not like the other

>>18963329
>Forgot to address this. At best, BTC can handle 0.25 million transactions per day. BCH can handle 8.3 million, and has a roadmap to handle 50 transactions per day for ten billion people. If BCH had the traffic of BTC at its 2017 height, transactions would cost only one cent.
Again, if it scaled to the point that visa is at right now, it would be going the way of BTC. The nodes will suck ass because the chain would be fucking HUGE. Laggy out the ass. Once again, it brings nothing new to the table and won't really stick.

>load the crypto FUD
>dump eet

>>18963419
Furthermore, satoshi was relying on tech to keep improving. It HASN'T and it's over unless someone does what I recommended IMO. It was pretty naive (as much as I know as a 22 year old haha) of him to write it off like that...

>>18963172
Not exclusive to BTC at all.

>>18960694
>Why are people here still into BTC?
normie and boomer friendly

>>18960694
then explain why south korea unbanned bitcoin right when markets started to shit the bed.

>>18963629
No it isn't. Crypto and blockchain is normie and boomer friendly is one that would work in the background and most people aren't even aware that they're using it at all.

>>18963945
Not an argument.

>>18963860
That doesn't need explaining.

>>18963419
>>18963493

We'll have to agree to disagree. On-chain scaling works, just as Satoshi describes it in the white paper. Look into Bitcoin Unlimited.

>>18964012
>Crypto and blockchain is normie and boomer friendly is one that would work in the background
*A crypto that was normie and boomer friendly would be one that works in the background.

>>18960694
This is brainlet tier fud someone that has been in the space 5 minutes sees hurrr durr 7 tps and omg world computer thinks.

I was going to debunk each point but i realize its probably a troll.

>>18961710
Based

>>18962420
Gold has no intrinsic value it just has a high stock to flow ratio and low inflation.

>>18960694
Fuck you're retarded OP, you seriously think you know more about Use Cases than the top computer scientists in the world who initially helped make bitcoins. Get your fucking ego out of your own ass.

>>18964243
If you read the thread I'm clearly not a troll. Almost every person has just said I'm an idiot, said some random bullshit then left. Not one person has even come close to addressing even half the points that I've made.

>>18964313
Well yeah I don't think I should just blindly believe something just because a really smart person said its true. Bitcoin is like the first vehicle every made. The group of people who created the motor engine were geniuses but we still made improvements and adopted different models. The creator of Bitcoin knew more about computers than he did about economics.

Yet again not an actual rebuttal. Just another person saying "You're an idiot. You're wrong".

>>18964314
If you are genuinely serious, and you can say with a honesty that you can overcome your cognitive dissonance, i suggest a quick google search as the points you've made are the most basic levels of FUD. I mean 75% of them would have detailed explanations on aantonops youtube channel.

BTCs only weakness is fungibility. PoW is the only acceptable base chain consensus mechanism and bitcoin has the highest hashing rate by far.

>>18960809
first they ignore you

>>18964415
Yet again this is more "This is so obvious" and "Just google it". This doesn't get anyone anywhere. Not a single person has actually made a decent rebuttal at more than one of my of my >5 points.

>>18964442
Bitcoin is not being ignored. Literally the same argument could be applied to Litecoin or some bullshit.

>>18964501
points you to water.

NO! You bring the water to me.

Oh well, speculate as you wish, i have nothing to gain from convincing you otherwise.

>>18964567
Telling me to google it and pointing me to some random guys youtube is next to useless. This is especially the case if no one in this thread has bothered to even refute some apparently stupid claims about an investment they've made.

Your analogy is stupid. It's more like this rare scenario in which someone makes a thread to discuss a certain topic, giving their opinion first to start it off. The entire thread then fills with people calling the OP retarded and saying "this is so obviously wrong". The OP learns nothing and it turns out this thread was a complete waste of time.

>>18961816
>Those in power significantly prefer fiat over Bitcoin
prove it

>>18965070
Because those in power control fiat but they don't have as much control over Bitcoin.

>>18963302
>BCH is following Satoshi's real vision of Bitcoin
does that vision include having nodes so large the only people that can verify are basically miners, does his vision say anything about miners consolidating all the power?

you are preaching to the wrong crowd

>>18965100
so you're saying the government is not in power? since the government has no control over fiat.

I'm very optimistic about BTC future in 5+ year timescale. But we need scaling now and next year. Not 2025. Not 2030.

>>18965201
But that's the thing. There won't be any scaling. BTC would also be too busy playing catch up instead of being revolutionary.

>>18965117
They do but anyway I said "those in power",

>>18965233
so the government holds power or it doesn't, make up your mind.

does the government control fiat or not?

>>18965263
Yes. I'm fully aware that the Federal Reserve is "independent" but this complete irrelevant to my point. Whether or not the Fed are independent is unimportant to my point.

>>18965504
it's not irrelevant to my point, that being the government would benefit a great deal from it over fiat, that the government, being strong armed by the banks would look to bitcoin as a way to regain some of its integrity.

and now we are in agreement, to debunk your scaling FUD:

>>18965641
Clearly at the moment the banks have the government in a headlock. The banks and other people with valuable fiat would spread their influence and stop Bitcoin from ever being successful. This would include buying people out. The people who are benefiting the most from the current system have the power to prevent any other system from becoming successful. Especially considering how explicit Satoshi was in his goals and how long it's taken for BTC to attract <1% of the world's population. If you really want to overthrow the system then you don't scream before you charge. No the only way for the system to change is if other powerful people want the system to change, and BTC doesn't offer that. Could another decentralised crypto offer this? Sure, but certainly not BTC.

BTC also doesn't scale which is the most significant part. It literally couldn't be able to meet the demand if the demand existed.

>>18965808
>If you really want to overthrow the system then you don't scream before you charge.
To elaborate on this is that the rebellion wouldn't come from autists on 4chan, Twitter and Reddit and would require people with actual power to want to change.

>>18960694
>Why are people here still into BTC?
no, they are not, they are getting paid by greg maxwell.
ask for nutildah on bitcointalk forum.

>>18965808
>>18965831
ok so why don't you go build BCH, follow satoshis real vision not the vision of satoshi that has been corrupted the true vision not the fake satoshi vision and the rest of us will just use BTC and keep building the future.

>>18966121
The first point I made in this whole thread and in the two posts you responded to and multiple times in the thread I both implicitly and explicitly said that I think that the entire "use case" for BTC and it's knock offs like Litecoin are now an absolute waste of time. You clearly did not read a single post in this thread.

>>18961710

No, you fucking degenerate. Fucking no.

Implementation is more important than merely ideas. And the shit can't be actually used for real world payments.

So it is reduced to a memeticker to be traded at binance for meme Tether.

Now, in 2020 it is just a meme token.

>>18960694
wait, you didn't buy the dump in March? you deserve to be poor, kid.

>>18960694
I wish there waS hope. Maybe one day you’ll come around. Buy gold then?

Dominance.

>>18960694
I hold a few, as I flip the BTC -> ALT -> BTC cycles, but even ETH + XTZ are overvalued at this point. Maybe not Tezos, but the divorce mess concerns me.

I'm just buying more LOKI, desu.

>>18967327
Exactly.

Trying to find a link between Bitcoin's technical features and its value is similar to attempting to find a relationship between gold's chemical characteristics and its value.

We're way past that point. We know there's a variety of metals, each suited for different applications. They all have a price and a market. They can all be traded, but gold is still used as a reference, because of its history.

The same is true about Bitcoin.

>>18967327
Not for long

>>18967757
No it's because Bitcoin is a pile of dirt and pretty much useless for everything while it's being compared to gold, silver etc.