/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>18948485
people used to use it to buy drugs and guns on the darkweb. maybe some still do. now 95% of the people just use it to speculate and try to make money. it's not being used how satoshi hoped.

>>18948485
I can use it to send large amounts of money to other people for tiny transaction fees. I did a wire transfer with my bank and it cost me $20 and took 24 hours. I sent the same amount on Ethereum and it took 20 second and cost me 15 cents

>>18948485
Owning your money.

>>18948507
yeah but the price can go down 10% while you are sending it

>>18948507
Also this, even banks allow you to send any amount of money anywhere for basically free, thanks to crypto.

>>18948552
XRP transactions take like 5 seconds.

>>18948552
You don't have to keep your money in an unstable crypto like ETH. As soon as your money hits your ETH wallet you can convert it all to a stablecoin. Wallah there you go

>>18948485
It’s digital scarcity

People said the same thing about these papers that are widely accepted as notes now.

>>18948485
It’s an extremely convenient way of paying for your precious metals order from sites like SDBullion or Apmex.

>>18948598
it's unlimited cause you can always create more shitcoins

>>18948613
yeah but those were enforced by the state

>>18948615
>muh shiny rocks
they are also useless irl, besides speculation

>>18948627
That's not the scarcity he's talking about. I can print out monopoly money and maybe I can sucker some people into using it but my monopoly money is not scarce inherently in the protocol, nothing is stopping me from printing more.

Everyone has agreed that Bitcoin has worth, and Bitcoin as a protocol is scarce. Cryptocurrencies arent scarce because you can create as many as you want out of thin air. Doesn't mean anyone would buy any of those coins. Bitcoin has value and is scarce

>>18948485
Oh shit

>>18948485
() do not like it.

What's the point of money again?
Like how is it useful irl, besides being a funny way to gamble your resources.

>>18948485
What's the point of commodities futures other than gambling on the price of corn?

>>18948657
>they are also useless irl, besides speculation

No. Actually besides the unrealistic overnight dollar hyperinflation crash meme, PMs are also just a stable way to simply preserve wealth from bank fees, ordinary inflation and nosy governments. They sit there and don’t do anything. For those with an extremely conservative and risk-averse mindset this gives peace of mind.

>>18948657
We’re literally communicating using silver and gold wires and contacts you stupid peasant. They’re also great stores of wealth. Maybe one day you’ll have some wealth and understand you don’t always want to keep your net worth in what amounts to speculative paper.

>>18948668
The fact that something is scarce doesn't mean it has value, the shit of polar bears is a very scarce yet it has no value. What gives value to something is demand + scarcity but the demand for Bitcoin or other crypto is based only on speculation i.e. people buy because they think it will keep going up.

>>18948756
hows the short bobo?

>>18948747
>We’re literally communicating using silver and gold wires
if the prices of these two was based only on the demand created by tech production it would be at least 10 times lower

>>18948756
Not sure what you mean anon, I'm sitting on 500 polar bear shits and I'm pretty comfy. When this shit moons I'm gonna make it

>>18948766
imagine having this little idea of how this works

>>18948485

crypto is money. you are just trading your money for another type of money. A type of money that is connected to the internet instead of your local government or some other government.

>>18948734
Consider that the price of gold hasn't even been keeping up with inflation let alone allowing people to make gains.
You would have "made" more money buy keeping it in your home since 2012, or you could have actually made gains by investing in the market in a smart way.

>>18948766
Yeah I guess if only thousands of years of monetary history never happened you would be right. Great, any other pointless fictional scenarios you wanna come up where you’re right?

>>18948795
>Consider that the price of gold hasn't even been keeping up with inflation let alone allowing people to make gains.
Oh, it's retarded.

>>18948657
>store of value is useless in general
Wow. You need to learn the fundamentals before you start having debates on financial instruments.
Or better yet, just get some decent money somewhere and then tell us if you feel the need for it to stay at least as valuable as it is.

>>18948795
also the black swan risk of a new massive gold discovery or way to process gold which inflates its supply- makes it unappealing to me as an investment

>>18948485
I-I-it’s a distributed ledger, anon. Instant/near instant payment, minimal/zero transfer fees, global, and anyone with a phone can use it. No retarded square attachments, no middlemen like PayPal to freeze your accounts, no imperialist nations to ask you where you got your shit. Only thing is wallets are now chokepoints.

>>18948798
it will be fun when gold crashes -28% again like in 2013

>>18948834
1 post by this ID
>please faggot
you have the internet and literal free research and fact checking tools, how the fuck are you this dumb?

>>18948795
Pretty sure gold has outpaced inflation especially when you take the decades-long view.

Precious metals are a “buy it and forget about it” asset. Because you can literally do that and never worry about it going to zero. Ever. And usually they go up at least a little bit, enough to get back the premium and then some.

They are not really a bad investment: they are traditionally not an investment at all, they are simply savings. Their purpose is to securely preserve wealth, not make it.

I feel like historically there was more of a perceived sharp division between speculative investments and savings. The old-fashioned way of looking at things was to of course save money for your security in the event of joblessness and old age, and then use any excess wealth, if you were lucky enough to truly have an excess, on investing in speculation. But this was only really for the rich.

I suspect the reason why the investor mentality is so universal today is because we have constant inflation. Not hyperinflation of course, but it’s enough that most people feel that gambling a little or a lot, even if risky, is the only alternative to watching its value slowly get bled away in the banks.

PMs are the actual alternative way to at least KEEP YOUR MONEY. They are a form of savings, and not really an investment.

>>18948817
lmao >>18948893

>>18948893
Yeah I’m real worried...

>>18948834
>literal thousands of years of history
>best store of value mankind has ever agreed upon as an actual store of value
>I don't wanna invest in gold, if we find more the price will just go down and I need to get rich quick

>>18948893
>>18948908
OK I'll bite, tell me what your ideal store of value investment is.

>>18948901
That's what people don't get, PM's, gold especially isn't about the quick flip. You preserve your existing wealth, with no intention of selling because it's comfy as hell.

>>18948930
>what your ideal store of value investment is
i don't have one, i invest to make gains

>>18948913
>just wait 7 years so you can have your money back
lmao

>>18948485
They used to say because it doesn't track the stocks but we saw in march in clearly does. It's way to over priced right now if you buy any now you're almost certain to lose money in 10 years. Also some billionaire could just buy every single bitcoin if he wanted and all your money's gone

>>18948940
See >>18948901

What’s happened is that because people sense paper money isn’t worth holding, everyone feels like they have to be a serious “investor” just to have a chance to keep any value at all no matter how risky it is, and so they forget the value and peace of mind simple savings can bring. This is by government design to keep money circulating throughout the economy.

Historically the poor (people without much land or gold) just saved their silver shillings for a rainy day. That was it: you wouldn’t bet your money on foreign trade or new technological innovations unless you already had enough saved which was only a small minority of aristocrats and exceptionally upwardly mobile bougie types.

I don’t have anything whatsoever against crypto or stocks or anything else: I just see them as what they are, speculative investments. Which is fine, great actually, but I can’t risk what little wealth I have on investing much in either. And the truth is, neither can or at least should most people here whether they can accept it or not.

>>18948986
>just wait 7 years so you can have your money back

Gold is money, your 1 oz is still 1 oz. You’re referring to fiat currency. Also, you’re the retard buying the top in this situation. lmao

>>18949017
>Gold is money, your 1 oz is still 1 oz
Just like 1 btc is 1 btc, the hold cucks are so cringe.
>you’re the retard buying the top in this situation
That's what they will tell you too.

>>18949041
I actually agree that you shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket, even the most trusted and reliable one. This is why other physical assets like land, silver, precious stones etc. are also good stores of wealth alongside gold.

Gold just happens to be the hard asset with the single best track record of preserving wealth.

>>18949041
>the hold cucks are so cringe.

Yeah having savings stored away is so cringe! Yikes!

>>18949013
how is it useful as saving?
You buy gold, then a couple of years later you need cash to buy something irl or start a business and in the mean time it could have crashed 28%
btw how much does Peter pay you pajeet shills to manipulate neets to lose their money?

>>18948507
And then you realized that you needed fiat to buy shit, and that crypto-fiat exchange took you how long there Mr Simp?

>>18948112

same fag

>reminder to short tesla, reminder to sage fuckwits and jannys

>>18948771
Based shitposter

>>18949124

reminder

>>18949013
>Which is fine, great actually, but I can’t risk what little wealth I have on investing much in either. And the truth is, neither can or at least should most people here whether they can accept it or not.
If you don't take the risk by investing in speculative assets, you are accepting a LIFETIME of wagecucking. If you're ok with that then fine, but many of us here would rather take the risk of losing it all to escape the cycle. Even if you do lose all your money, guess what? You still have to wagecuck for the rest of your life anyway.

>>18949104
I’m not sure you understand the concept of savings. The point of savings is to save them, not start a business with them or fix a car with them or spend them on a wedding or holidays or anything at all. If they were for spending, they’d be called spendings.

>>18949160
> If you don't take the risk by investing in speculative assets, you are accepting a LIFETIME of wagecucking.

This may or may not be true. But it doesn’t change the fact that there is a difference between savings and investment capital. If you are trying to build up savings to... save, then it by definition doesn’t matter if they get you a return, since that isn’t the point.

>>18949164
savings are literally money that you don't spend in the moment to preserve it for future use what ever the future use is and when ever it happens my fren
Do you wonna keep it forever? Eventually you will need to use it for something real, that's the point of money.

>>18949164
Reminder that the majority of americans have less than 1k in savings or none at all
Should come as no surprise people don't understand the concept

>>18949104
>in the mean time it could have crashed 28%

You sound like you don’t know how to look at a chart. You brag about “investing to make gains” but you’re unaware that Gold went up over 600% from 1999 to 2011. A retrace was healthy and expected. Don’t buy the top of a pump anon.

>>18949199
The traditional purpose of savings for most working people is as something to fall back on if you get the sack or get old and too feeble to work. For this purpose you or at least I naturally want something which doesn’t fluctuate much in value and is virtually guaranteed not to go to zero. For this purpose, actual money savings are clearly the best.

Obviously if you want to invest in a venture of some kind for the most part you need cash for this purpose. But I don’t see the contradiction you do. There are two kinds of money: money you can risk, and money you can’t. That you can’t should surely be in a hard asset of some kind, even if you disagree about the particular merits of precious metals.

>>18949207
>Gold went up over 600% from 1999 to 2011
so you are saying that it's a decades long speculative bubble with no practical utility beyond the idea the some suckers will buy at a higher or at least the same price as you did?
Look i don't care, buy your gold but fuck off from my thread about crypto.
Do you pajeets get payed per post or something?

>>18949242
>fall back on if you get the sack or get old and too feeble to work
great, now imagine that in the moment of need you have to sell your gold and yet the price has fallen

>>18948552
same with any other currency
>what is hyperinflation

>>18949315
Possible, but a lesser threat than constant 1-4% currency inflation.

The obvious hedge is to have some money in USD too, and a variety of hard assets like land, maybe more than one other precious metals like silver and platinum in addition to gold.

The reality is that EVERYTHING can potentially fluctuate in value. But this doesn’t make everything equally voluntary or speculative.

>>18949340
Hyperinflation only happens in weak 3rd world countries.

>>18949286
The gold market is thousands of years old anon. Learn some history.

You responded to my point that crypto happens to be the most convenient way of paying for metal purchases. If you didn’t want to talk about Metals you shouldn’t have responded to me.

>>18949364
volatile*

>>18949340
you need the entire economy to fall and a 1920's germany hyperinflation to happen in order for your "investment" to make sense
meanwhile you could have used your neet saving to invest in the market

>>18949395
>you need the entire economy to fall and a 1920's germany hyperinflation to happen in order for your "investment" to make sense

>you need the entire economy to fall

We have this, and the Fed is working on the other half. Half way there...

>>18949395
>>18949430

>>18949367
oh, thats a really good argument. you revived my trust in fiat, ty.
all these countries like venezuela, iran and lebanon dont matter because they are "third world" anyway

>>18949430
in the last 3 months i did a x10 and the value of the dollar hasn't changed much, you can keep waiting for the collapse meanwhile i make more money

>>18948756
People buy stocks so they can sell higher

>>18949544
yes but they are parts of a company that actually produce something

>>18949517
It’s generally said that a prudent investor keeps 10% of their portfolio in precious metals. You don’t have to go balls deep. Or don’t at all, maybe it will work out for you or maybe it won’t. Good luck with your paper.

>>18949575

>>18949590
>Good luck with your paper
It is working out very well for me and i'm about to buy cheep land abroad.

>>18949604
yes, you are not expected to hold stocks forever, they have a real value and a speculative layer, you also do realize that people make gains buy shorting right?

>>18949575
Fuck off with your boomer logic. Crypto produces utility just like any other tech company that's publicly traded.

Can and how do you take shitcoin and turn it into cash in your bank acct?

Also..the other day I tried to set myself up with a wallet and figure out how to trade. Yeah no clue wtf i was doing.

>>18950386
what is it's utility?

>>18948657
OP confirmed for dumb cunt

Used to be for illegal shit
Now it's just a randomized secondary stock market

>>18950498
you use a wallet to hold your crypto, you buy them on an exchange if you want to trade
considering how clueless you are i would advice against it because you are going to lose a lot but do as you want

>>18948485
To make monee

illegal activities and speculation

completely sucks at its intended purpose of a currency

>>18948485
i will say this REDDIT SPACEING

BTC(crypto) re-orders the enitre valuation of everything demoniated into BTC (Crypto), becuase it is >>>>> effecnt that FIAT/USD.

WHY?

Becuase it is apolitical and can flow to the lowest tax (eg zero tax) reigieme at will with no capital controls.


Fiat is DOA vs BTC

The valuation will be in poroprtion that difference. That is only one use case of x trillion, you know the revaluation of everyother class into it.


The second limb is can be use as hard collateral, you can prove solvenecy at a natiotioal level by signing you keys.

>>18948771

how many polar bear shits for suicide stack????

also which exchange sells polar bear shits?

>>18948627
to an extent yes, but you cant trust the dev on 99% of shit coins. So no your not about to put in xbillion to shit coin

>>18951481
unconfiscatable money

>>18948485
Look into Defi projects. Working already, you can issue tokens, lend, borrow, there's insurance projects etc. All good stuff, with no middleman involved & fast as you could want. You can even get crypto-backed debit cards. You really don't even need a bank anymore already, and that's going to improve even more when Eth2 drops.

>>18948657
Oh, this is just a bait thread. Have your (you) then.

>>18949096
>years on the red
>savings

>>18952595
That you can’t spend

>>18952595
you can't buy anything with it, and to cash out you need to use an exchange and a bank
and nobody will ever use it as cash because it's too volatile

>>18948485
Unibright and LTO have irl functions.

>>18953050
>and to cash out you need to use an exchange and a bank
so what

>>18954140
it isn't unconfiscable you fucking retard

>>18949104
Your whole hypothetical there is dismantled by any semblance of diversification. I wouldn't have 100% in gold or 100% in crypto. I need cash? That's what cash reserves are for. You obviously wouldn't sell your fucking house to buy a vehicle. Same logic.

>>18948531
money only has value when others trade for it. no first world bank is going to bank run now, that is a distant past.

>>18948863
>Only thing is wallets are now chokepoints
What do you mean chokepoints? CEXes used to be chokepoints but we’re getting there with DEXes - and it’s the same story with wallets, apps like Metamask are already becoming available for mobile devices
Im excited for the future

Literally who gives a fuck about it’s “functionality or uses” when you can buy it for $4,000 then cash out at $10,000+ in just a few months?

>>18955171
how

>>18950498
You don't turn it into money. Crypto IS money, you can trade it for other currencies like USD or other crypto.