/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>18550663
If you want a healthy economy, yes. But the 0.01% don't benefit from a gold backed currency and furthermore lose power.

Not good, will never come back.

>>18550663
none

>>18550663
Yes, a gold backed currency typically increases the amount of time before that currency collapses

>>18550674
nobody benefits from a gold backed currency
especially not countries that don't domestically produce gold.
if a country has to buy it's own currency from an other it's fucked. there is only like 5 country with significant domestic gold production retards like you would deny the 200 others from issuing their own sovereign money?

>>18550663
>Is there any benefit to gold-backed currency?
No and there never was look at debasement of coinage in rome 3rd century BC. Gold rises and falls with money supply, its a fucking hedge. Physical gold has used in avoiding inheritance taxes and gift taxes and keeping money off databases. That's all.

>>18550682
anything "backed" just invites fractional reserve custodial schemes.
so it's retarded to begin with. asset backed crypto being the most retarded idea of all.

>>18550682
>Yes, a gold backed currency typically increases t
deflation and curtailing economic growth meanwhile someone says hey lets debase the currency anyway and it makes fuck all difference.
see
>>18550685

>>18550699
that is also true from a purely economic perspective even if gold was ideally distributed it would still suck. fiat is a definite improvement over the gold standard. but it's prone to failure for obvious reasons.

Is there no way to combine gold and fiat? Like if 1 dollar is 1 oz gold then have it change according to gold supply and keep artificial inflation of 3%? For exaple 1 dollar will buy 3% less gold one year later adjusted for missing/increased supply of gold? Or am I being dumb for not getting it?

>>18550796
>someone says hey lets debase the currency anyway and it makes fuck all difference

>>18550663
Its the most sustainable longterm. Gold doesn't inflate or deflate

>>18550796
>Is there no way to combine gold and fiat?
that's what they called gold standard but it's failed due to fractional reserve scams.

Yes, there are many. Deflation isn't bad, it's just a bogeyman today because people have been horrifically irresponsible and are upto their eyeballs in debit. In a healthy economy deflation encourages saving, which lowers interest rates naturally. Natural rates of interest allows for rational allocation of resources, rather than the casino we have today which causes giant amounts of malinvestment into sectors of the economy like real estate and useless tech.
Won't happen tho, the ruling class benefits from the current system and the population is too dumb to k ow what going on. They're so dumb that there are people that will deny reality completely and follow the teachings of the states intellectuals.

>>18550811
it's highly inflationary. you have no idea how much gold is mined each year and how the mined quantity is growing exponentially. there is a reason why gold steadily lost purchasing power the past 100 years.
earth is especially rich in gold and silver but they are not rare elements in the universe.
there is enough gold on planet earth to cover the entire planet surface a meter high. imagine for a second drowning in gold like garbage.

>>18550821
>Deflation isn't bad
it's not bad it's horrible. inflation on the other hand is completely harmless unless you keep money under the pillow like a retard.

Money must be something everyone want. Like gold or silver or sex or food or house or alcohol or heat or water or free time or workforce.
Scarecity is important but you don't see people going crazy about Mercury with is as rare as gold.
Money to work over long time needs scarecity and be wanted by average Joe.

>>18550831
Source: trust me bro

>>18550840
Keep regurgitating the states officially approved narrative. Good goy.

>>18550796
its simple,
>take account of all the above ground available gold in circulation today ( a known amount, more or less)
>take account of all of the USD in circulation today together with what is expected to be printed with the fiscal year
>make said total amount of USD value = amount of Gold
>everytime you print more money without destroying old bills, you "increase" the number of dollars in circulation.
>thereby you must make each USD with proportionally "less" Gold than previous

>>18550831
>there is enough gold on planet earth to cover the entire planet surface a meter high. imagine for a second drowning in gold like garbage.
doubt

>>18550855
just look it up if you don't believe me i did.
over 3000 tonnes of gold mined annually now.
a
few years back it was only 2000 annual. in 1845 it was like 10 tonnes annual.

>>18550796
Yeah, gold backed bonds. The ECB has encouraged Italy to do it in the past. Can't remember the guys name, but an ECB economists wrote a pretty comprehensive report on gold backed bonds.

>>18550870
>the law of diminishing returns doesn't exist
Fuck off, retard.

>>18550856
you need to learn the basics of economy before discussing it on the internet. just a tip. i have lived through 2 hyperinflations. over 40-50% inflation annually. and you know what happened? nothing. you payed more for good s and earned more. numbers went up the economy went on. deflation on the other hand kills investment innovation productivity over time it results in hyperinflation because of the decreased productivity. it causes unemployment and great inequality in wealth as people with tons of money buy up all assets before the hyperinflation phase hits..

>>18550870
>dude, trust me

>>18550868
then google it
>>18550895
well didn't work out with oil either everyone was raving about oil running out we found more than what we need soon enough

>>18550906
google it! don't trust me! look it up. golds standard or gold as money is retarded for so many reasons...

>>18550898
You're so dumb you can't understand the unintended consequences of such policies. Sad.

In every crisis fiat loses against food rations. Scarecity is only part one of two. Money has to be backed by something good.

>>18550909
Oil extraction methods are not comperable to gold extraction methods. Furthermore, that isn't an argument against the law of diminishing returns. Your stupidity is growing clearer and clearer. Stop posting.

Yes, exactly right fiat money loses its value or hyperinflation comes because government can print notes has much as they want, but bitcoin & gold both are limited in quantity & hence precious, Trias is one of the best blockchain projects around with real-world use cases. It is being used by large multinational companies and is generating revenue from its products as well. It is sharing the revenue created from the sale of its Dapp Triasforce to it's community. They are starting their staking program soon and it could be a great opportunity to get in at the bottom. it is one of the cool projects I have come across !!!!!

that's the business model of fashion brand gucci artificially limit supply to create demand and hike prices

gold is not limited in quantity as far as intrinsically useful demand, the term precious metal is a distinction from non-precious metals on the table of elements

>>18550663
The hidden /biz/ discord server is discord gg CpqQw7b

It has to stay hidden or discord will shut it down.
As far as discord knows it's Wayne Lambright's official campaign discord.

>>18550919
i do i understand it a lot better than you i'm saying printing more money right now is the lesser evil. compared to let the entire fucking economy implode and 50% of the population falling below poverty line within a few months 80% within a year. you can't do that when you have a gold standard or a crypto with fixed supply.

bitcoin shits all over gold it's more liquid cheaper to secure cheaper and easier to transfer. but it would be beyond retarded to adopt bitcoin as money. it's even worse than gold now with it's deflationary properties.

controlled inflation is the best way to keep an economy running and expanding. you fags see it as some secret evil but it's not. it's progress.

and you want to abandon the usd in a time where it shines brightest. in recession cash is fucking king. just wait for the hyperinflation phase if they let the economy crash and productivity collapse...

>>18550932
dude if the law of diminishing returns had any effect on gold it's production would not increase exponentially the past 10 years. and runnig out of gold is highly unlikely as i said we had the same train of thought with oil then we found a shitton. there will be no gold shortage. in fact the total supply will double the next 30 years.

>>18550984

>in recession cash is king

cash is always king

>>18550916
>don't trust me bro, trust me

>>18551002
Based time traveler

>>18551003
not in a hyperinflation no. but it was still used. we kinda spent it as soon as we could it was a very short term store of value. like within a month. but life went on people adapted in 2 weeks. nobody lost his job. if you had savings you invested them in whatever asset or just simply bonds to keep it's value.
in a fucking depression when the velocity of money drops and business go belly up shit is horrible. and nobody wants to spend his money knowing it will be wroth more tomorrow.

for money to be useful it doesn't have to be a very long term store of value. that's the most retarded misunderstanding ever. and really brainlet tier economics.

for money to be useful it's apparent supply has to adjust to demand. and this is the tricky part the actual intelligent critics of the fiat system point out the government has no means to control the velocity of money they can only influence it in a roundabout way. they can try encourage spending but it an easily fail.

still the fiat system proved to be the best most useful and most stable system the past 100 years. and no country went back to gold from fiat in history. if one currency gets fucked they create an other one. that simple.

>>18551031
just google it you will see.

>>18551071
What if I don't

>>18550663
Ask Muammar Mohammed Abu Minyar Gaddafi if a gold dinar had any benefits.

>>18551102
But he's dead. Any more genius ideas?

>>18550663
Deflation is the flaw of strictly gold-backed currencies. Savers take out money of the economy, without a slight money oversupply you would choke economic growth due to deflation (as money is removed from cycle, fewer money means the remaining money is more worth). Deflation is poisonous for investments, no one would invest if you can assume you can buy more with your money if you wait. The solution is an independent central bank that simply supplies money only considering inflation rate. The momentary development, that central banks think they have social, political or Gdp stimulus related tasks to accomplish is crazy. It leads to economies not being able to consolidate, misalocation of capital, inflated asset prices and finally record debts that need to be paid for by the next generations

>>18551241
>just consoom more

>>18550870
I just looked up the numbers.
There are 244,000 tonnes discovered (not mined) in the entire world, but assuming mined. That is only 1.02 oz of gold for every person on Earth.

>>18551265
I consoom gold

>>18550684
Yes I am against "soverign" money unless I am the one who can issue. Money is real thing not subjective make believe that can be wished out of thin air.

>>18551060
>nobody wants to spend his money knowing it will be wroth more tomorrow
Do you honestly think the average person thinks about these things?

>>18550695
The issue is if one country starts doing fractional reserves then the others have to start too to keep stay competitive. Perhaps a wide agreement of no fractional reserves might work.

>>18550684
So they can be backed by silver, or other orecious metals, or whatever the country in question produces. How the hell did it work for centuries?

>>18550695
The big difference is backed money doesn't allow central bankings using printers to solve their troubles.

>>18551456
Do you honestly think the average person will have a big impact on economy. We are talking about investments of companies, of course deflation is a factor (i studied this shit)

>>18551492
That's also a point. Also the central banks are used as good tool for currency devaluation which helps export industry. Some consensus would be needed, everything else is a race to the bottom.

>>18551060
Yeah right central banks fail all the time. The banks can print money all they want and investors will adjust their portfolios accordingly. What are they going to do? Brrr until no one can take their shit anymore?

>>18551060
But why would deflation be bad? Thinking about it won’t it make people spend money for what they need? Like food etc are things you need now so it won’t make sense to store money since you need to spend it now, also you might want to say buy a gaming console for fun because you want to have fun and you want it now not 5 years into the future. If you invest it will be in a thing you or other people actually need because you yourself buy things you need and you wont spend money around out of fear for not preserving your wealth? Also won’t entrepreneurs actually spend time doing something of value and care about their customers because if its a grow your money scheme first and customer second it will most likely be some inflated crap that will either eventually tank or maintain its wealth in illegal or illusory way? So in a sense doesn’t deflation make people spend out of necessity and not invest out of fear? Doesn’t it make the customer wiser and not spend recklessly and consoom hence being controlled by corps? It’s confusing for me and Im definitely overlooking things

>>18551102
well the downng of lockerbe, the bombings in germany and other terrorism financing didnt scare the elites as much as the introduction of a gold backed system..... same for Saddam. Should make you think

>>18551668
Deflation is bad because it will almost inevitably lead to hyperinflation.

>Deflation for some reason
>interest rates rise
>suddenly the cost of maintaining payments on our national debt skyrockets
>the govt literally does not have enough money to do this, but are contractually obligated to pay the interest AND cover SS and Medicare/aid
>even the most retarded of Dems realize they can't raise everyone's taxes to 90% which is what they'd need to do to pay debt interest and existing budget obligations
>enter stage left, The Fed
>Money printer goes BRRRR like you've never seen it go before
>You wake up two days later and a loaf of bread costs $50

I'm an accelerationist who has basically been betting on this happening for quite some time, so I am looking forward to it, but it will be a nightmarish dystopia for anyone who isn't heavily in PMs or crypto. Not to mention even if you are in the former, if you don't have guns and friends to walk around with 24/7 it will basically be a matter of time until you get killed.

>>18550684
>Portugal
>no gold mining whatsoever
>15th in the world ranking of national gold reserves
>this in 2020, after spoiling 3/4 of the national reserves since """"democracy"""" was implemented
A country can own gold if it trades it for any other necessary material wealth that it produces. A country can't, however, hold gold, if it's traded with debt and bonds and interest and all that make believe system.

>>18550695
a "backed" system is literally the single thing that MAY prevent fractional reserve bullshit from happening. A non backed currency is a lot easier to manipulate and print into oblivion than a backed currency.

this is supposedly a cryptocurrency (see bitcoin and shitcoins) board and the first 10 replies to this question are pathetic.

keep buying shitcoins like chainlink retards

>>18552113
>deflation is bad because the country has been running on funny money for over a century,
>the national debt should be paid
>we should pay for socialist b00mer pyramid schemes
yeah sure deflation is super bad
it all makes sense now

>>18552113
>defaltion is bad because the opposite of deflation is bad

>>18551060
>dude, ill just starve today instead of buying food, since i will be able to buy a gram of bread more tomorrow!
>oh damn, my money lost 10% of its value since its got deposited into my bank account. i better go consoom it and will never be able to buy real estate/make an actual investment with it
>hyperinflation
>nobody lost his job.

all this above is your brain on keynesianism

>>18552113
>heh, yeah only gold and crypto are safe investments lmao money printer
imagine being you, a fucking idiot

In the case of deflation, which means you get more for your money if you wait some time, no company would invest. It would destroy economic growth. At least that's the narrative and i can't really deny that it sounds logical. In any case, investments would only be done if highly profitable and would exceed deflationary up valuation of currency. Maybe it would even work and we would have a smaller but more efficient economy

>>18550898
>t. 103 IQ useful idiot redditor.

>>18552555
ok, lets say you have a deflation of 0.5% pa. an investment would have to seek returns of more than 0.5% pa to break even with the deflation and that honestly isnt, outside of the first few years of the actual investment, not very much. ofc, if you are a bloated shit company like wework or uber, you obviously wouldnt want to have even tiny amounts of deflation, but the reason for this is, that these companys arent profitable and will prolly never be profitable.
also, historically, even under the gold standard, you rarely actually did see deflation occur. during the gold standard, or in the times before, when bullion was common, inflation through mining happened way more often, see spanish empire. somehow the first long deflationary period in time was the great depression, which followed after a period of 10 years of enormous growth without any recessions. just for the record, recessions in the 19th century occured every 6-24 months, but were always minor in size. makes one think.

>Is there any benefit to gold-backed currency?
nope

>>18550663
we need something to limit the power of the state to print infinite money.

>>18552767
it's almost as if it was written in the Constitution that that power was to belong to Congress instead of a cartel of jew-owned banks

>>18550663
Depends on who you are.
A peasant? Don't worry, you are using silver and will never afford gold
A king? It's fine, you can flaunt it and plunder it as needed
A kike banker? You're fucked, the king and the peasants will behead you for skimming their shiny rocks

>>18550684
sucks to suck. I don't give a fuck about guatamala or some fucking chinamen in viertnam.
you're a fucking retarded globalist and are part of the problem. Begone, jew.

>>18552767
OH GEEZ ARTICLE I SECTION X OF THE US FUCKING CONSTITUTION
IT'S LIKE THE FOUNDING FATHER'S KNEW ABOUT THIS SHIT
WE ARE ALL AS EDUCATED AS THEY WERE BACK THEN
WE CAN MAKE AMERICA 2

>>18552146
Portugal is fucked, it only has half of the gold, the other half is split between the Bank of England and the FED, never seeing that shit again.

A gold standard is good for the people since it means you can save money.
In our current economy you lose purchasing power by saving money and saving accounts nowadays dont even cover inflaction.
It will be even worse when they implement UBI, then the social and financial ladder will be truly closed and the people that have been hoarding assets for decades will be perpetually rich while the peasants kiss their shoes because of (((free money))).
They are selling shit advertised as chocolate and people are happily eating all of it.

>>18552083
The only witness (clothing shop owner) about the bomb maker completely lied and couldn't even keep his story and descriptions straight and the police corrected his statements for him. Just another kike lie like the helicopters shooting people who's only proof was jewyorktimes. Of course right after we went in and got his gold, we paid Germany back.

>>18552555
I think companies would invest in less bullshit since I’d rather save money than watch another blockbuster sjw fast and furious crap. Right now as it is I either have to go watch it immediately with the money I have so I can also buy popcorn with it or tomorrow I won’t afford the gas to go watch the movie (figuratively speaking). Which seems to me that I will be making more rational choices and companies will serve me rather than the other way around. People are programmed to spend now or have less later, or to gamble on stocks which they have no control of and lose money at the mercy of the big investors and the banks which in most cases is the same

>>18553397
OH SHIT Q PREDICTED THIS
WWG1WCMIGA2

>>18550796
Yes, mexican politicans are already looking at a return to a silver standard. To stop people from trading their silver to fiat when the nominal value becomes higher than the gold value due to inflation, they are going to NOT give a FV to the Peso, and only increase its denominations by increments of 5. The price of the Peso would then be determined by the price of silver, because of the lack of FV

>>18550870
DYDE IT GOES UP!!!!!!!!!111

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921344913002747
>COMFY AF

>>18552555
It is not logical. All else being equal, gold will continue to be mined, money supply will rise, causing INFLATION. Deflation happens because supply outpaces demand and somehow the solution is abandoning gold which has served perfectly fine as money for 5000 years.

>>18550663
no

>>18553986
this is why paper currency is always bad

>>18552680
Hmm, i always was kind of a defender of fiat currency together with sensible central banks. However i thought about it and what you say makes more and more sense to me. What also needs to be considered is that very low interest rates or even negative ones are illogical abs poisonous bullshit. Eg 0% interest (as it's basically the case in eu) would mean a company can justify their business towards investors if it only generates slightly above 0%. This means eg: Someone wants to offer a product in a specific country. Saying it costs him there $10 in purchasing/producing it, would mean that it is still profitable to import it from china even if it costs there $5 and $4,50 for delivery. This business would still be profitable in a low interest rate environment. The consequences go from absurd misalocation of capital to environmental damage (delivery). People driving with their cars everyday to work in a company that creates slightly above 0% capital return is absurd but makes absolutely sense if interest rate are below zero.

>>18550940
>>18550674
>>18550811
>>18550856
>>18553578

Gold has been absolutely slaughtered. S&P roaring with confidence. Another dismal weekend for the doomers and bugs. They just can't quite squeeze all those shorts loose. Dadgum, that must be painful. Just one tail-whoopin' after another for shorts.

I bought at $1050 avg between 2007-09 and held waiting for promised $3009-$5000 gold. Don't you recall Schiffty, Baloney, Kiyo, Jim Rogers, Jim Turk, Old Sinclair, Frank what's his name at US Global? All of them gold LONG saying gold bull just starting as it ripped past $1500. No one said anything about unloading it and taking profit. The real profit was yet to come...because we were told the Fed was a clown car, USD was confetti, S&P wasn't real, etc. Sound familiar? Yeh. Unload - ALL OF IT - Monday morning if you got any brains. Drop the price.

I don't know how old people on /biz/ are or what they were doing 10-12 yrs ago but we're hearing the exact same lines put out then. You know what happened? Well, 12 yrs has gone by and major powers and US investor pros and citizens can't get enough of US debt. Wake up.

Having gold is like having a 10-car garage and having one spot taken up by fly-stung, poop-smeared horse and buggy. It's obsolete.

If you bet against the U.S., this is the result: you lose a fortune and are made a fool of, rightly so. You listen to gold fools and doomers, you end up with kind of unique, anger-inducing embarrassment. Admit your costly error, lock in those big losses and get in line at the S&P trough - the only game in town.

Harry Dent sees gold going to $700 an ounce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UboMFpCpJvo

>>18553518
I honestly thought it was all stored abroad and we'd never see any of it, so thanks for whitepilling me fren :)

>>18550840
Deflation isn't horrible. You're speaking from a US experience filtered through the lens of the utterly incompetent Federal Reserve. The Great Depression would not have been so great if any one of two things were done: 1. No easy money, massive credit creation during the Roaring 20s that led to the mean-reverting 1929 crash. 2. Let the crash wipe out all the overleveraged speculators and do not allow the government interfere in a desperate attempt to prop up prices. The US actually experienced a deflation in 1920 under Warren G. Harding's presidency. The government sat on its hands and the depression (recessions used to be called depressions until the Great Depression caused economists to not use the term "depression" for fear of causing one) cured itself.

The reality is that an economy will not stop just because prices fall. Debtors who are too heavily in debt will default and then the foolish lenders will get wiped out. All infrastructure and labor still exist. The overpriced infrastructure can be bought up by prudent managers of capital and the idle labor can then be hired at a lower price. The produced products would have to sell at a lower price due to lower overall wages but, obviously, the product would sell for a profit or the infrastructure and labor would not have been hired in the first place.

Deflation is only kryptonite to a system that is designed to surreptitiously steal from savers while doing everything to rescue irresponsible creditors and lenders.

>>18550898
The very fact that you lived through two hyperinflations means that you are unfit to debate economic policy. You can offer anecdotes of your experiences but you and your countrymen (Argentina?) have zero capability of understanding how to run an economy to prevent wipeouts.

Hyperinflation is not guaranteed to follow deflation. The hyperinflation results only because incompetent government officials attempt to "fix" deflation by creating a lot of money backed by nothing. As for lack of innovation and productivity, even with a "good" economy with the central banks' preferred 2% rate of inflation, your country would never develop into a first world nation. The culture of the nation makes it impossible.

>>18555493
Thanks, Peter! Very cool!

>>18555493
>>18555621

I used to listen to Peter Schiff regularly and this is exactly what he was saying. If he's right about it, why did gold crash from $1900 to $1000 despite all the money-printing, while stocks roared from 8000 to 30,000, a fivefold increase? Why did gold crash again this weekend despite all the money-printing? Inflation just isn't happening. No matter how much they expand the currency supply, gold doesn't move.

>>18550663
It's pretty based to be honest.
Our above ground supply has historically increased with a steady rate of around 2% per year. We're at almost 200k tonnes and we'll have 500k tonnes in 2070 when asteroid mining overtakes earth based mining. We'll be mining 10k tonnes per year by then and the asteroid mining boom of the late 60's early 70's will quickly ramp it up to 20k tonnes. The price will see a decade long decline dampening gold asteroid exploration budgets till the mid 90's by which time the above ground supply will be 1 million tonnes and the inflation rate will be back at it's historic 2% per year as humanity ramps up it's asteroid hunting amongst the stars at an ever increasing rate of 2% per year.

>>18555493
This is a very precise analysis. The current monetary interventions do nothing else than push problems into future. As long as no consolidation is allowed to happen the system can only be kept alive by QE. Among maybe other reasons, i fear there are two very simple explanation for politics acting that way: Consolidation phase and falling asset prices wont get you voters in a democracy. Second (and i fear this is the main reason): People in power tend to be 50-60 years old and generally tend to be invested in stock market. To sum it up, QE are the politics of a generation securing their assets on the cost of the following generations.

>>18555493
>>18556305

>>18556390
Savers, say hello to the land of negative interest rates

>>18550663
I bought 50 5 Reichsmark german nazicoins. They are 90% silver. And cost around 10€ which is quite funny. So this old money is literally worth more then current euros. And it will always worth a lot because it has a high silver value.

Feels pretty good to have those beauties.

>>18550663
Lots of retards in this thread that are perfectly fine with fiat currency suppressing the dollar. More debt in inflation please. I want my wealth destroyed. Smart economic man on TV said gold bad