/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>17953573
Their loss my gain.
>t. Chad R&D EE

theyre pussies.

Source: I work at a company full of engineers

>>17953573
>Why do engineers have zero confidence?

They think normies are as smart as they are and defer to normie overconfidence.

>>17953573
because the job is to pry and probe for inefficiencies. Inevitably, that energy gets directed inward and you realize you're not an infallible god, so you may as well be a pile of shit.

>>17953573
I depends on the sector you're in. We typically mingle good with each other. The business side people tend to play the blame game/ try and take credit for your ideas/ throw you under the bus.

I have the confidence to defend myself, but I'm compensated well enough not to care to be in the petty rat race/wanna be wolf of wallstreet drama. And the higher ups that actually promote you see through that anyway. Why play politics when you don't have to? Isn't that the high IQ route to avoid drama?

I have zero confidence in the dating side of life I have no idea why.

>>17953626

They are also human and make mistakes sometimes, to which everybody points and laughs at the stupid engineer who isn't perfectly correct 100% of the time. It's not just that they are insecure, they are largely mocked for their intelligence.

>>17953573
I think it may be reasonable to say that more controlled environments can generally be more conducive to better thought processes.

Take the order out of the room and it can create cause for concern. Additionally, there is generally more risk tied in with responsibility/leadership, that which may or may not be compensated for enough. Some jobs you practically run an entire branch of the business, risking your career path and reputation for a measly return, generally (my rep is worth more than 90k tyvm). I could go on and on, but why go after more if they are comfortable where they are. Why put themselves at more risk for what I assume to be a lower risk weighted return?

>>17953573
It is because we deal with complex systems all the time that yell at you if even the slightest thing goes wrong. You would have low confidence too if you were in such an abusive relationship. Compared to the systems we work with, humans are extremely forgivable machines to work with.

>>17953573
They inherently see flaws in things that other people don't. This breeds pessimism.

>>17953661
>I'm compensated well enough not to care
>Why ____ when you don't have to?
>We typically mingle good with each other.

I bet this is the exact mindset of animals on a free-range farm. You give me a real "cattle" vibe.

>>17953749
You realize that human beings often yell at other human beings that have *actually* done nothing wrong, right? That's what it's like being on the business side.

>>17953661
>I have zero confidence in the dating side of life I have no idea why.
"Women are the most dangerous plaything."
t. Nietzsche
You should be scared, anon. Not being scared isn't the issue. Having enough courage to overcome the fear without shitting your pants is what you need to work on.

>>17953771
>You realize that human beings often yell at other human beings that have *actually* done nothing wrong, right? That's what it's like being on the business side.
No, fuck you. If you mispronounce s word, no human will bat an eye. Computer software, on the other hand, crashes. Attention to detail is in our core competency set, not yours.

>>17953771
I agree with your reply to the first guy though to give you some credit

>>17953573
>And yet 90% of the engineers I work with are visibly scared of any type of conflict, scared of added responsibility/leadership, and DEFINITELY scared of talking to non-engineers or being client-facing.

Chadism is rare in all of the population fag. Just getting a degree doesn't magically cure you of those things.

>>17953573
Smart people think they are dumb and dumb people think they are smart

>>17953573
high personality trait neuroticism. It's harder for them to be confident because they perceive more risk, seeing risk is what is what makes them good engineers

>>17953771

>You're a cattle for not getting into petty drama and creating problems that do nothing but hinder your career

You're giving off 19 year old incel vibes. Are you watching YouTube videos on how to be an alpha male?

>>17953573
most people have crazy amounts of blind confidence from being retarded mathlets desu
also that image needs more pillows on the bottom

>>17953573
Bullish for Suterusu and Asia's excellent small space minded people, engineers. Bullish for privacy.

>>17953573
>typically above average intelligence

Intelligence is the ability to create wealth and climb in the social hierarchies

engineers are just tools that memorize things

>>17953989
>memorize things
those would be doctors. psychopath doctors become surgeons btw

>>17953989

Nah. Engineering is more problem solving, which is why it terrifies women.

>>17953771
>You give me a real "cattle" vibe
oh, aren't you a good worker bee! Remember about that bonus!

>>17953626
>They think normies are as smart as they are
No we don't lmao. Normies are legitimate apes

>>17953989
>engineers are just tools that memorize things
t. midwit

>>17953573
>scared of talking to non-engineers or being client-facing
In my experience this isn't really fear. It's just a waste of time and I'd rather do real work.
Doing this you will sit around talking about what you're going to do for a million fucking hours instead of actually doing it to people who don't understand either what you do or what they want in the first place.

>>17953853
You strike me as either someone who is overly paid or overly apathetic. Being an engineer, you’re probably both.

>>17953989
>engineers are just tools that memorize things
Lmfao I memorize nothing. Google is my memory bank. What now faggot?

>>17954071
>oh, aren't you a good worker bee! Remember about that bonus!
>>17953853
>You're giving off 19 year old incel vibes. Are you watching YouTube videos on how to be an alpha male?

Stop projecting anons, I gave pretty straightforward opinion, didn't mean to hit a nerve.

>>17954101
>In my experience this isn't really fear. It's just a waste of time and I'd rather do real work.
If you want to make a shitload of money you have to engage in conflict. This will mean getting in arguments occasionally.

I think most engineers want to just quietly sit at their desk and solve coding puzzles for 20 years, get a 4-6% raise every year, and make enough money to buy the video games they want. Not an insult, just my honest take.

>>17954242
>I think most engineers want to just quietly sit at their desk and solve coding puzzles for 20 years, get a 4-6% raise every year, and make enough money to buy the video games they want. Not an insult, just my honest take.
Brilliant insight. Next tell us how nurse practitioners really care about people and show high levels of empathy.

>>17953573
confidence comes from knowing what you are doing or talking about.

the problem is Low iq has high confidence because they don't understand that they are retarded and have no idea what they are talking about but they have an overabundance of confidence because they don't know better.

>>17954242
>If you want to make a shitload of money you have to engage in conflict. This will mean getting in arguments occasionally.
I'm fine with conflict. I just find most of the time spent engaging with people who don't actually make the thing to be a waste.

>I think most engineers want to just quietly sit at their desk and solve coding puzzles for 20 years, get a 4-6% raise every year, and make enough money to buy the video games they want. Not an insult, just my honest take.
Well you described me pretty well so that's at least 1/1.
I make plenty of money for the things I and my family want, I'm good riding that forever while continuing to enjoy what I do.

>>17954242
I think you're missing the difference between unnecessary conflict and shit that actually matters. I'm fine with conflict and face it when needed.

I'm skeptical of you even being in the work force. Unless you're in some weird anomaly most people are mentally still in highschool.

>>17954646
>I'm fine with conflict and face it when needed.
This. Sometimes engineers even create conflict when none is necessary. I find many to be very disagreeable.

My brother went for engineering and close to graduation it became clear that one of his main strengths was being a tall white Chad who isn't autistic.

Now he has a job and he says higher ups are relieved whenever they don't have to deal with Indians or social outcasts, so he is well liked.

>>17953573
Intuition for the nature of altercation. It's game theory, and it's easier to lay down and die until it's time to bite, homeostatic balance is better achieved that way, which is more conducive to work/life balance.

If you play tug of war with somebody and they lose they're liable to go whine about it, and unless you're a real suckdick whoever cried first catches the benefit of the doubt, unless you're hyper-manipulative which plays against homeostasis, which is the ideal.

They win, and you can go do the same thing, but in either case you can expect some reciprocal effect built out of spite. The reality is it's best to understand that homeboy is probably going to dig himself into a hilariously shitty hole and won't be able to leverage himself out. I've seen it repeatedly occur. It's not your responsibility to correct an adult person's course unless it effects yours in a dire manner.

>>17955038
>have a very white name, think "John McDouglas"
>be assigned to an account, client audibly relieve when I introduce myself on the phone
>one day, get taken off that account
>I introduce him to my replacement, "Patel Singh"
>can hear the pain in the clients voice when he says "nice to meet you patel"

2 years and 2 promotions away from that job later, I still hear from the client how bad it sucks now

>>17955038
Sounds like me, I’m an engineer, tall straight white male. There are some real dorks in the field, but a lot of normal dude with above average smarts.

OP is onto something though, even though from the outside I’m tall chad, I don’t have as much confidence as I want.
I wish I was just more deluded enough to just speak where I always sound right. I’ve seen that if you delivery things as if you’re 100% sure about it, it’s rarely questioned. And if your assertions are questioned you just say “I’ll look into that!”

>>17955411
>And if your assertions are questioned you just say “I’ll look into that!”

That's because that's how business works. Take whatever people give you, and when they apply resistance, you regroup so that you've covered your bases. Then once you have, you start taking even more.

>>17953573
It's kind of a loser thing to be dealing only with non-abstract, concrete matters, and they probably realize how there is no glory to engineering other than selling your labor really dear. Engineers never actually create anything for themselves

40% of the worlds billionaires are engineers

>>17953573
Because they're interested in things, not people. Thats the mark of a true man

Engineer here. For me I never had conflict from childhood to college. I was under the assumption that people acted like "adults." Then the real world hit me, I grew some tough skin and started telling people to fuck off or just avoiding them. I feel like older engineers might just tell you to eat a dick.

>>17953573
Normies can speak from a place of ignorance, while engineers have to argue from knowledge. If you're used to making shit up on the fly about things you don't know about (or are not certain about), you'll be better prepared when you confront the unknown. When placed in a new situation, Engineers tend to recoil and keep quiet, since they're not used to dealing with uncertainty / the unknown.

Most engineers I've worked with are simp manchildren. Gonna repost a greentext that I made about my time in one of the cliché startup companies.

>be me, 21 year old senior backend software engineer, 150k USD salary
>not engaged in HR "corporate culture" bullshit and not too keen on smalltalk with the manchildren at the office
>follow my father's footsteps (and his father's too) and show up to work every day in suit and tie (no, not a cheap shitty men's warehouse suit) because I respect my profession and believe looking well put-together is important
>get told by HR that manchildren in the office are starting to resent me because the way I look and speak gives off "aristocratic" and "elitist" vibes
>disregard this pre-emptive warning
>eventually get my own small team and deliver first project ahead of schedule with excellent quality
>tell team members who report to me that they can do whatever the fuck they want and come in whenever they want as long as the work gets done when it needs to be done
>refuse to micromanage my team and put time reports and shit in JIRA and other worktracking services
>start working from home regularly and showing up at the office at 12PM whenever I am at the office
>team produces new stuff constantly, productivity is highest in company, and all goes very well
>this goes on for months
>rest of company eventually gets supremely jealous at our working conditions that I put in place for my team
>king manchild in other team starts to block my pull requests and badmouths me to senior management claiming that my code is insecure and terrible
>get pulled into a meeting with HR and senior management putting me on an improvement plan
>constantly smiles when talking to the the engineering manager which pisses him off as I "wasn't taking the meeting seriously"
>engineering manager starts to think I'm outsourcing code to India because productivity was too high for the amount of time i was spending in the office
>gets let go the next week

>>17956855

These events took place in the shithole city that is London. Should add that I'm tall, white, have a head full of hair, and have a public school-ish English accent. This obviously triggers NORFeners to no end.

>>17953573
The tons of job opportunities are a bit deceptive, as most of them require tons of experience.

We're not exactly scared of conflict, but we pick our battles carefully.
We're not actually scared of talking to non engineers, but we can appear that way because we're not very good at it; we don't understand how normies think. Things that are obvious to us are usually hard, and sometimes impossible, to convince them.

>>17953573
Higher intelligence generally gives people a lot of self doubt and awareness. It's called the dunning kruger effect.

>>17956855
this happened

>>17956933

I know it sounds unbelievable and unlikely, but let me assure you that this did actually happen. This isn't even the peak of the iceberg of what kind of crazy shit goes down in startups.

>>17953573
>visibly scared of any type of conflict, scared of added responsibility/leadership
Engineers look at the goal, current status and what is required to get to the goal. If its beyond capabilities or not worth it, then why bother wasting time on it.
Engineers are only interested in power if it helps to reach a goal. Being given inapproriate power results in being under more presure to perform without the support or tools to reach a goal. A lose-lose situation that is best to be avoided.
Getting a slap on the back for results that you know are unsustainable is the worst feeling as an engineer, even if you can get away with it.

>>17953573
>live, laugh, love
This still pisses me off everytime I think about it. I have never been to a women's place where this wasn't there.

>>17955926
>40% of the worlds billionaires are engineers
when they get it, they really get it
https://youtu.be/ayzl2tarmz0

>>17953573
>conflict
not my problem, let me do my work and fuck off

>responsibility/leadership
Engineers usually watch overhead and management make all kinds of dumb decisions and just don't care, just focus on getting shit done

>client-facing
>give indepth feedback
>manager gets mad you gave them new ideas or more work or something

engineers life is suffering because of all the dumb people around you. You start to realize it after a while

>>17956855
>start working from home regularly and showing up at the office at 12PM whenever I am at the office
>team produces new stuff constantly, productivity is highest in company, and all goes very well
sounds familiar
I had something similar at an old company too
jealous weak men are always the problem, at work they're worse and more dangerous than the women

>>17957215

Women can be vicious, but at least you know they don't have any honor. Weak men are easily underestimated and can deceive you for longer.

>>17953661
>>17953775

>>17953989
>engineers are just tools that memorize things
t. /lit/fag

>>17953573

because they are spergs

>>17953573
>>17953604
>>17953605
>>17953626
I'm at a shit state uni so it might be different at more prestigious institutions but a lot of people who would have gone engineering didn't even think about it because they all think the field is dying. And they're right. All the people I do see going engineering are all "lel Cs get degrees" literal 105 IQ retards, and no they're not doing it ironically. What happened to the field? Is it really gonna get outsourced to pajeets as quickly as software dev?

Most are just average at their job and being generally intelligent they're aware of it. Also ego is a big thing, they think being the engineer they need to deduce every answer to every question themselves and are constantly wasting time trying to figure something out which a single phone call could solve in 1 min. That type of person get hit hard when they make a single mistake.

>>17958536
Yes. Why do you think Boeing planes can't stay in the air anymore?

Strict parents. A lot of engineers are engineers because their parents wanted them to be engineers or else they got no support because they didn't want their kids to be losers.

>>17956855
youre a nerd who dresses like a fucking loser

>>17958536
Not outsourced, but automated. Software is so powerful now that any dingus can do a FEA without the specific engineering skills needed to do the calculations themselves. Engineers need to stop trying to be good at what software does and embrace being creatives.

>>17959160
>engineering is doing FEA's

lmao this codemonkey

>>17956879
You sound autistic and incapable of working with others, and they fried you for it

>>17954242
>If you want to make a shitload of money you have to engage in conflict. This will mean getting in arguments occasionally.
Give me an example for this, do you mean for getting a raise or for moving up in the company and becoming a manager rather than an engineer?

>>17956855
>21 year old senior backend software engineer, 150k USD salary
Holy shit tell me your secrets senpai.

>>17953573
>scared of any type of conflict

maybe they just hate people or are not interested in people or simply find people boring or illogical which is why they gravitated towards an autistical obsession with machines or whatever form of engine their engineering degree was about

>>17953573
>live, laugh, love

Leave.

>>17953573
Our projects are very fact based and uncreataive which in turn makes the way we speak and think with each other fact based.
Can't handle people that come at you with random bullshit opinions because we can tell often times those aren't their real opinions or judgements and they just made them up on the fly to mess with you for whatever reason on that day. Those judgements and arguments are incredibly illogical and not something that's good to poison your mind with if you're trying to get something done.

Most of the spergs are too busy thinking about what kind of work they're doing to worry about what others think of them. You stop thinking about everything else if you're busy with something.

>>17956855
think I'm outsourcing code to India because productivity was too high for the amount of time i was spending in the office
lel

>>17960931

You have a point, but I am not this autistic in real life as I prefer to sperg out on 4chan rather than in the workplace. Should add that my team was isolated from everyone else so I didn't really have any interaction with the other engineers.

>>17961162

Not to sound patronising but it's not that difficult to get in, you just need to be better than the other people applying which isn't too difficult if you have a passion for code. As for my own situation I started coding at 11 or so, so I am already rather familiar with the various stacks used in industry.

>>17956855
imagine trying this hard to please Mr. Goldberg lmao

>>17961886

Yup, redpilled me on working relations and now I refuse to wageslave ever again.

>>17953573
Why burden yourself with responsibility if you are not properly compensated? For most people it's better to simply work 9-5 and come home with a clear head rather than return back and think of the 1 thing out of the 200 that can go wrong, and what you have/could/should do/done to avoid it. It's simply soul crushing, if the pay is isn't that good and you don't have somebody else competent enough to be sure he handles correctly some of those 200 things. That's management today.

>>17961761
>Not to sound patronising but it's not that difficult to get in, you just need to be better than the other people applying which isn't too difficult if you have a passion for code. As for my own situation I started coding at 11 or so, so I am already rather familiar with the various stacks used in industry.
Depends on the place. I have a similar backstory but I got pigeon-hole'd in a position were I have to fix problems other people are too retarded to solve themselves. I deserve it though because I spent all my time on autistic side projects, rather than finding a good job.

>>17961886
Is that a 4:3 OLED? That's like my dream monitor for retro gaming.

>>17953573
coders are savants. savants are overconfident retards who think theyre good at coding, therefore good at everything else, when a lot of them cant even wash their hands without splashing all over the place, walk without bumping into someone, let alone communicate normally

>>17962167
That behavior is by design. They're so smug they don't realize just how hard they're getting fucked in the ass.

>>17962167
this retard >>17961429 is a perfect example of the coder mind
>thinks he’s smarter than he is
>mad ppl cant compehend his retard babble
>thinks he’s just too smart to be understood
>thinks his copypaste job requires genius and ultimate focus
>cant see the irony he outsourced his job to pajeets

>>17962319
also they subconsciously know they cant do anything but code, so of course they wont go for roles which require more

>>17962448
Every single job is a mind numbing slog unless you're an executive, investor or self-employed.

>>17953573
they want to do what they like doing without having to fuck with social stuff

>>17962402
>>17962448

Except I run my own business now, not all of us are autistic spergs who only focus on coding.

>>17956855
>and show up to work every day in suit and tie

>>17953573
https://youtu.be/WjOowWxOXCg

>>17953573
Repressed homosexuality

>>17956879
>Should add that I'm tall, white, have a head full of hair, and have a public school-ish English accent.
who gives a fuck about those you superficial monkey brain
you are probably just a serf and do not excell in anything, pleb
i've seen real engineers and scientists, they don't give a fuck about superficiality
instead they do what they love to do, concentrated on their passion

>>17962554
This image is IA generated right?
Else, I can't fucking understand what it's supposed to be...

>>17956879

>>17953573
Impostor syndrome

>>17953573
This is my cousin. Super high achieving engineering genius who got rich making patents for race cars. Lives alone in a giant house and will probably die alone. Feels bad.

My boss calls me weird. I am tall white fit and a 25yo kv. I have avoidant personality personality disorder.

>>17963476
woah. can you describe him in more detail?

>>17961073
>Give me an example for this, do you mean for getting a raise or for moving up in the company and becoming a manager rather than an engineer?

I mean for making it to lamboland, anon. Whatever it takes.

>>17963476

Some men contribute to society by being breeder dads and others contribute by furthering the whole, latter is more noble imo. Newton died a virgin.

>EE here
All our faces when we realize:

Engineer is to physicist as construction worker is to engineer

engineering gets a lot of hype nowadays when in reality its full of normies willing to actually do work.

look at engineers from the early-mid 20th century vs engineers following """STEM""" movement - the bar has decreased significantly

>>17964101
Yes and now we have less +200IQ people around

>>17953573
Talking to a non-engineer:
Either you make them feel stupid and they become distrustful, or you make them feel like they understand, in which case they will proceed to 'get involved' and waste everyone's time and energy with their useless comments and bullshit.

Facing clients can be outsourced to midwits who cost less. There is no reason for a competent engineer to do this unless their company is extremely small, maybe 8 people max.

The only reason that an engineer should *ever* be talking to a non-engineer is that the non-engineer is either a *direct* source of funding(meaning, their name gets signed on the cheques), or the non-engineer can help to get them a new position.

>>17953842
/thread

>>17966207
I'm not talking about day to day, I'm talking about these:
>The only reason that an engineer should *ever* be talking to a non-engineer is that the non-engineer is either a *direct* source of funding(meaning, their name gets signed on the cheques), or the non-engineer can help to get them a new position.

Being able to talk to function in these two scenarios is how you make it to lamboland. My whole point was that engineers have all the tools to do it(big brain, marketable skills) but most just have a horrible mindset.

>>17966362
Most engineers don't get much practice.

The way to get good is to be around a lot of VCs and investors *not* related to your job. Find them and learn to socialize with them.
Learn how they talk, what they want to hear, etc.

Unironically one of the best things you can do for your career. You *will* get opportunities by impressing these types, and it's not even that hard. The hard part is learning and practicing, because it must be done regularly and in person for maybe ~2 years before you will see tangible results in how you can handle executives and financiers.

>>17953668
Most annoying thing on earth desu.

>>17953573
>tfw ambitious socially confident engineer
It's a good feel.

>>17966601
VC Analyst here (though not for much longer probably). If you're pitching to a fund alongside your CEO, you'll probably get passed along to someone in their mid 20s who understands a bit more about your work and won't bog you down with useless bullshit. Best thing to do at that stage is not to dumb it down (too much) and be engaged, analyst impressions get passed up to partners and are taken into account.

>>17966688
I've pitched to VCs alongside a brainlet CEO before. This is exactly what happened to me. The analyst was decent to deal with.

>>17966688
One thing that I'd love to learn is how to get VCs to help out with new opportunities. My last startup failed for reasons obviously entirely unrelated to me, and I know most of the VCs personally. They definitely know about other interesting projects in my industry, but whenever I bump into any of them and ask if they know about anything cool going on in the industry they tell me that they have nothing.

>>17966903
VC Associates and Partners usually have very large informal networks if they are competent. Corporate VCs also work to directly advocate to their parent company on your behalf. While they'll work to set up client relationships outside of their investments, they don't tend to do this for partnerships (for practical reasons: it benefits competitor VCs financially and may give them access to sensitive information about your company).

If your investors aren't recommending in-portfolio partnerships, they aren't doing their job.