/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>16279641
And everyone rushes to buy their premined shit...

>>16279660
it will be open source.

>>16279641
>Anmol Sachdeva
proof of poo in loo is superior bitcoin sirs

>>16279668
>Rachid Guerraoui
>World leading expert in distributed computing.
cope more

Baby’s first proof of stake coin

>>16279787
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1908.01738.pdf
the tldr of this 153 pages PDF is: your shitcoins are dead.

>>16279641
Without proof of work there is no base price for newly mined coins , pos coins will collapse in price non stop with the occasional growth stealing momentum to pow coins.

ETH may be the only pos coin that works due to being mined with pow guaranteeing a good distribution of the coins.

>>16279641
>we don't need PoW to prevent double-spending
never did, however there is no other:
trustless permissionless publicly auditable ledger that is also secure to date. only bitcoin.

>>16279807
A very large amount of eth was premined and sold at ico.

>>16279807
so eth opted for the hybrid model after all?
main chain pow sidechains pos?

Been done before many times. Never successful. Why should this be?

>>16279827
because OP wants to bait and insult you

>>16279787
>https://fossbytes.com/researchers-developing-zero-energy-bitcoin-alternative/
if you read it it's not even pos they just do a weird poa where they ""randomly"" select nodes for the consensus.

>>16279641
POW provides the illusion of value, since some effort went into the creation of a product. It is hard to mine bitcoin ... this is the same reason gold, lithium and shit like beluga caviar has a high value. Effort and scarcity create value.
Spawning millions of tokens into existence and gaining more just by having more is more flawed than the current financial system. So you are deluded if you think POS is an improvement from POW... either that or you are a heavy holder with a lot to gain.

>>16279875
basically it's a chainless or graphless crypto that has no consensus. interesting. on an academic level. i truly wish to know more about this, but i will believe it works when i see it.

>>16279917
also the most important thing to know is how this network deals with sibyl attacks - or in case there is no reputation system - someone spamming insane amounts of these free unstaked nodes skewing probability in their favor.

>>16279935
but think of it that's still a form of sibyl so yeah, how does this new network gets sibyl resistance? many smart people tried this in the past decades...

>>16279914
>POW provides the illusion of value
not really, it simply solves a problem inherent in reputation systems. you can't fake hashpower. you can't fake work in proof of work. you can fake identities however which is why unstaked quorums are unworkable. thus pos so far is the only alternative to pow that is without an inherent predetermined authority structure. however pos has serious issues of it's own. pow also provides fair initial coin distribution which seems impossible with pos.

>>16280029
Initial coin distribution is a totally pointless metric. Rich people will always hold the lion's share of any crypto that matters. At that point it will be irrelevant how "fairly" distributed the coin was ages ago.

>>16280111
>Initial coin distribution is a totally pointless metric.
it's not when your governance depends on it. how do you make sure no actor gets 51% share of your initial distribution of a pos coin?

https://decrypt.co/11432/ethereum-2-0-tokens-could-be-securities-warns-cftc-chairman

POS = TRAP

>>16280148
pos is not necessarily a security you can airdrop a pos coin on btc ledger.

>>16279666
checking trips of truth
NANO is the patrician choice

>>16280142
You can't reliably prevent that in either PoW or PoS...if anyone is determined enough they will buy whatever it takes to acquire 51%. At least in PoS that would cause the price to moon so the attacker could potentially not have enough money to complete the takeover.

>>16279803
>>16279875
It’s proof of stake. You can’t bait me with this shitty bait, I have a CS degree from a good uni.

It’s just another brainletjournalist making another clickbait article about something over which he has no clue

>>16280184
>You can't reliably prevent that in either PoW
this is irrelevant for pow as new mining power can always enter and dislodge any initial majority. that's the beauty of pow. with pos your 51% stake once locked in can never be changed.

>>16279641
Bitcoin value comes from the energy spent at mining it and harvesting it. How are you going to define the value of a coin that doesn't need energy to acquire it?

>>16280188
>It’s proof of stake.
not what it says https://arxiv.org/abs/1908.01738
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1908.01738.pdf

>>16280220
That's not where value comes from. I can invest massive amounts of energy into mining FaggotCoin but the real world doesn't believe in participation trophies so no one will pay me just because I tried so hard

>>16280220
that's what i thought in 2010 and 2011 which is why i'm still not insanely rich. i did lot of math and it all concluded that bitcoins fair price is the price of electricity consumed by mining it. so around $10... it was simply not profitable to invest in a mining rig. lol it's actually the other way around tho. whatever the price goes up to the hashpower will grow to eliminate profitability of mining.

>>16279914
All value is an illusion.

>>16280237
All pow coins dominant in their hashing algorithm have value and been rising non stop pos coins are a lottery

>>16280268
That was the fair price in 2010 tough.

>lol it's actually the other way around tho. whatever the price goes up to the hashpower will grow to eliminate profitability of mining.

Not at all the base price grows as supply decreases.

1_All the miners have a reduction of 50% of their income in bitcoin.
2_Their electric costs remain the same.
3_They now earn 50% less
4_They refuse to sell at this price because they know everyone else doing mining is under the same situation.
5_Price starts to go up due to lack of supply in the market.
6_Eventually price does 100% increase and miners could be in the green again.
7_Speculation starts at what will the top price be.
8_Miners still refuse to sell because it could go up even higher.
9_Miners having different electric costs all have different breakeven price.
10_Price keeps going up as news spawn all over the world.
11_A bubble starts to form
12_Some miners start to sell to pay electricity
13_Bubble becomes insanely big
14_All miners start to sell.
15_Fees become massive
16_Bubble explodes
17_Price collapses 83%.
18_The new bottom where everyone tells bitcoin is dead is literally so big that years before it would have been considered insanely high and that it would never happen.

The thing is that while monero has constant decrease in supply btc is drastical and moves the whole market so bubbles form , but this that i pointed above is the thing that moves the price.

And as supply collapses brainlets like bsvtards think this will make mining unfeasible in reality block rewards keep going up even tough supply is reduced because the game theory is perfect.

https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/hashrate-btc-bch-bsv.html

Protip LTC miners are capitulating hard now , ltc will be the best performing coin in the next bullrun.

https://www.asicminervalue.com/

>>16280335
Also i doubt we have another bubble and 83% collapse in price because:

1_Reaching moore law limit means miners won't have to sell their stock to upgrade hardware anymore which will cause a second halvening effect in 2022.

2_Stablecoins even tough individual ones could become the new mtgox are going make entering and exiting the market so easy that another bubble is unexpected.
The rise will be bigger but softer than in the past this time by the time the momentum of this rise is lost we will be probably 400 days away from the 2024 halvening.

>>16280268
That isn't true, it take US$600 to mine 1 BTC at Venezuela, and US$6000 to mine in a developed country.

>>16280335
fine points still what i said holds true hash will always grow to eliminate profitability then stagnate then if price goes down capitulates rinse and repeat

>>16280365
reading comprehension m8

>>16280359
What do you mean by reaching moore law limit? We just broke that again with nano chips of graphene.

>>16280380
3d chips can double the transistor count for a while with same nm tech without issues also

>>16280371
Correct , also i have noticed that miner block rewards were 10 usd in 2010 when you did the math kek.

https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward

Your math was probably correct , the game theory is what satoshi mastered and no one understood well until 2016.

>>16280380
3nm is going to be a limit for a long time originally miners changed electricity for btc.

GPUs and later asics changed btc game theory because now miners had to sell more of their proffits to upgrade hardware or be forced out of the market by better hardware.
This started an arms race that has been forcing since 2012 for miners to sell a bigger part of their proffit than originally satoshi expected which increased btc inflation more too.

Once we hit 3nm asics miners will no longer be forced to sell to upgrade asics for a long time.

>>16280390
The game theory changes 3d chips in the case of btc game theory is the same as buying more asics since 3d chips will require more costs and phyisical resources to produce it's basically the same than buying more hardware for btc game theory.

BTC game theory will reverse to pre 2012 levels after 3nm is hit and cause another supply reduction since miners won't be forced to sell to upgrade and before someone tells me the stupidity of "they will sell to make more proffit" , no they won't btc will have way lower inflation than fiat by then they have no incentive to sell and pay taxes in the post 2022 game theory, btc will be safer.

>>16280335
I believe you are right about the phases of the market. But what I am not sure is, what will happen when the price to mine a fraction of bitcoin is something higher then all the money in the world (a situation were mining is impossible)? How much is fees is going to be to maintain the maintain the BTC network? Anyone has a calculation on that? Is it viable or it is doomed to end?

>>16280395
my math was correct but i came to the wrong conclusion ironic

>>16280188
proof of stake uses a lot of cpu power if you aren't running the purposely gimped wallet releases. most of the popular ones have a 500ms idle every loop, or other purposely unoptimized code

>>16280455
I just realized that back then there was no mining pools for example so your math was 100% correct as that was the individual reward for miners , you nailed it anon , you just failed to see the bigger picture as most of us did back then.

I did not google search yet, but can anyone advise me a good book on the game theory behind BTC block chain? I am in trouble right now and I have no time to study new things. But soon I will have time. I have a pos-grad back ground in physics, give me a book with equations.

>>16280518
>proof of stake uses a lot of cpu power i
there is no reason for that i think you refer to running the turing complete script being cpu intensive.

>>16280441
>https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward


It seems the fees are irrelevant , because even if the supply collapses in btc it's increasing in fiat due to the game theory.
After 2140 when mining no longer exist this could be a problem obviously but even then one could assume if the game theory works as it has for 20 years maybe even a 1 sat fee end's up beign a shitton of money due to how valuable btc becomes.

>>16280441
I believe you are right about the phases of the market. But what I am not sure is, what will happen when the price to mine a fraction of bitcoin is something higher then all the money in the world (a situation were mining is impossible)? How much will the fee prices be (to maintain the BTC network)? Has anyone made a calculation on that? Is it viable or it is doomed to end?

>I am on drugs right now, sorry for the bad writing.

>>16280541
These are the levels of cope required to be a bitcoiner. Hahahaha. Smart people like Peter Todd know that there needs to be a tail emission like Monero's but they still think it's going to happen on Bitcoin. No chance.

>>16280541
If BTC last more then 30 years I believe we are really lucky, we made farther then most fiat money (which is backed up by a whole fucking country trying to secure it). I going to buy real state if I make it, try a business or something.

>>16280589
Peter Todd also says this won't be a problem until 2035-2040.

Also no crypto ever had a lower levels than inflation we don't know what this inflationary effect will do to the price , my bet is on pumping it slowly non stop.

>>16280589
What you said meant nothing to me. Can you explain further please? I feel you have something important to say.

>>16280606
Agree

>>16280624
Monero has infinite supply , something called tail emission that will start around 2022.
Brainlets may think this is bad but infinite supply relative to an already mostly mined millions of coins is still decreasing in inflation because if you create 1000 btc per day and all created as of today are 5000 that's a lot of inflation.
But if you have 18m btc and create 5000 btc per day that's lower inflation.

Infinite supply does not mean infinite inflation so monero has that , it's a smart thing i give it that.

But this anon

>>16280589

Is not looking at the greater picture that even tough rewards have collapsed in btc they have non stop increased in fiat.

https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-block-reward

That said i do agree that monero emission curve is better.

>>16280335
>Brainlets like bsvtards
Seething

>>16280606
>we made farther then most fiat money
that's a myth bitcoiners should stop spreading
http://jpkoning.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-life-and-death-of-internet-monetary.html
>If BTC last more then 30 years I believe we are really lucky
also this. there will be better alternatives than bitcoin in the future that wont require PoW. That future is near.

>>16280687
It's true tough bsv cult believes that lower rewards will crash the hashrate and the charts show the opposite lower rewards increased the reward in fiat and the hashrate.

I had no time to properly study about block chains, I will do that next month probably. But what I don't understand is: what defines the fee paid to perform BTC transactions between wallets? Would you mind explaining that to me or sending a good link explaining it?

Thanks in advance.

>>16280607
One of the biggest things bitcoin has is a long track record of working. A Lindy effect. By 2035 that will be destroyed. Bitcoin without a block subsidy is fundamentally different from a bitcoin with a subsidy and we have no idea if it will work.

>>16280650
Rewards can't just increase in fiat. If the value of bitcoin is growing larger, the price of security needs to rise as well. It will be unstable otherwise.

>>16280696
ctrl + f : average life
All results found = 27 years

I am not reading that wall of text to find the average life of a coin. The author was lazy to point that out, if he didn't calculated the average life of a coin how is he going to refute that?

What is the average life of a coin?

>>16280726
why 2035? how one calculated that? Do you have a reference?

>>16280738
>if he didn't calculated the average life of a coin how is he going to refute that?
i guess you'll have to read that wall of text to know, brainlet

>>16280726
Again all good points but you ignore inflation again , by 2035 btc inflation will be about 0,15% this is absurdly low , relative to fiat it's probably grow in price non stop like housing and that will increase the reward price in fiat.

Pathetic.

>>16279641
Are you the same street shitter who posted this trash in the Hashgraph thread? Lmao fuck out of here how much are these literal whos paying you?

>>16280624
Blockchains are secured by proof of work. So far on bitcoin and other chains the incentive for the PoW has been issuance of new coins with some smaller amount of fees. Eventually bitcoin's issuance of new coins will basically end because the block reward halving infinitely.

Monero doesn't have halvings but it decreases gradually until it hits 0.6xmr per block. It will remain at 0.6xmr per block forever after. (It can also be less occasionally to make the adaptable blocksize function).

>>16280753
Just going off what Peter Todd said.

>>16280805
The fucker said people got a new coins for a fair price, so that average life is wrong. So tell me, mommy didn't loved you much so you have to call other brainlets to fill a littler better?

>>16280818
Yeah but that also causes this graph
https://bitcoinvisuals.com/chain-output-volume-day

Need to do something like your block reward graph divided by this graph and the problem will be clear.

>>16280830
Ok, so you don't know it, you just believe in peter todd. You are like people that have faith that bitcoin will keep going after no mining is left. Honestly, I just don't know either, and possible none can know for sure, people probably need to perform models of game theory to have an idea.
That would be a good academic paper, to model the bitcoin block chain in long term using game theory. I will try to research that in the future. If I succeed I will post here.

>>16280824
>inceasingly nervous shitcoin bagholder

>>16280880
I am sorry, I don't get it. Would you mind explaining further?

>>16280909
I think you're confused who's who. Just went with Peter Todd's numbers for the sake of argument because they were brought up. The actual date is irrelevant. Don't act like a big brain when you don't know wtf is going on.

>>16281014
I sorry if it looked like I was trying to be a big brain, that wasn't my intent. Like I said, I don't know much about block-chains, I need to study it, I am trying to learn with you guys. And I am grateful for all of your and others attention.
And I don't really look at names when I write.
Anyway, that number need to be evaluated, I don't know if it is a good calculation, the date is relevant to how I manage my investments.

this is such a typical paper for paper's sake. Masturbatory wandering around through definitions with endless jargon without ever answering why anybody should give a shit.

>>16280958
The security has to scale with the value of the chain. When the block rewards are rising in fiat value only because the coin is rising in fiat value then obviously the value that needs protecting is also rising by at least as much.

For example a million dollars worth of security on a trillion dollars value is only as good as one dollar of security on a million.

>>16281097
In the graphic you showed is the amount of money used to protect the network, right? and it doesn't change much. So you argue that since the money stored in BTC network is raising the amount of money used to protect it should also raise. Am I fallowing your reasoning?

If I fallowed your reasoning I just don't understand one thing, why would the amount of money used to protect the network raise? Isn't the hash code enough to protect the network ?(I really don't understand completely how the BTC block-chain works).
If a bank stores certain amount of money, it doesn't need to raise its protection if more money is stored, there is a threshold for the amount of protection needed. Does that makes sense in the context?

I don't what to sound like a big brain, I am really just trying to understand things.

>>16279684
>World leading expert in Dehli street pooing
no u

Thanks for everyone's time, I believe this was one of the best talks I had in /biz/. I will leave soon, I will be back tomorrow.

>>16281187
I posted a graphic of the daily value of BTC transactions in USD in response to a graph of the USD value of block rewards. My contention is that if one outpaces the other by too much then the security balance changes and we can no longer be sure that Bitcoin will work the same as it did in the past.

I don't think the rest any threshold for the amount of security you need. It goes right up to needing to fight full scale wars with the current system.

You need to look into proof of work and double spend attacks.

>>16281346
This is the best resource. Once you get this you'll understand way more than most people.
http://downloads.abcbooks.xyz/blockchainz.pdf