/biz/ - Business & Finance

degrees dont make you money, skills make you money.

>>161982
Gay analogy

>>161984
lol, you'll always be a loser.

>>161987

Experience. A degree just gets you the entry level position.

most of my friends with phDs are wankers who stay in university just because they hate to work. degrees don't mean shit.
just know what you're good at and find something to earn a living with that

>>161987
Someone sounds bitter. Speaking from experience?

Purely based on which path will make me the most money, which of these should I choose?

Computer Science
Software Engineering
Chemical Engineering
Biomedical Engineering
Actuary
Accounting
Finance
Medicine

The one you like the most

>>162009
Any of them anon, you'll be successful at any of them, making a lot of money with whichever path you choose.

I'm majoring CS and minoring EE and my opportunities are great and plentiful.

Now, a HUGE part of this stems from attending a quality university though. People who are bitter about college and say degrees won't make you money usually take their stats from business-field/creative writing majors attending *Insert state name here* State University.

The fact of the matter is, any degree related to engineering that comes from a school worth its weight will definitely make you some major money with plenty of opportunities. A lot of people are anti-CS for reasons I really don't understand, as the *worst* option I have right now is $64k starting.

If you don't like engineering though, or any similar field where a degree ACTUALLY IS IMPORTANT (medicine, law, etc.), then I would say college isn't inherently necessary. A good school will help with a resume but since you're not training for a specific skillset where college education is an absolute necessity, I would start giving the "college is not necessary" crowd's arguments some consideration.

So, do what you love, just be careful that what you love may or may not mean college is the best route.

>>161967
Chemical engineering. Work in the energy sector and enjoy your 100k starting.

>>162561
>I'm majoring CS and minoring EE

You've fucked up man

>>162591
Oh look, it's the anti-CS train again.

Can you actually supply a good argument? Not one person on /biz/ has provided a good argument.

Allow me to show you some stats regarding my school, and why you dipshits should realize that the only CS fuck-ups are the ones attending ITT-Tech:

http://careers.mines.edu/Files/2012-2013AnnualOutcomes121013rev.pdf

>>161967
Anything with medicine. Boomers have been hording cash and will use it over the next 30 years to prolong their pathetic lives. That coupled with obongocare will insure that the price of medicine and treatment will skyrocket.

Computers are always good but its becoming harder to actually come up with something new. That and everyone and their brother can code now.

Others to consider:
finance
accounting
watever insurance people get
geology also looks semi promising

>>162610
Now, let's take a look at the average salary for a computer science UNDERGRADUATE. Not even masters. Is that a $68,267 I see? I think it is.

And that job placement rate? Is that a 96% I see?

Now somebody tell me why a computer science degree from a good school is "fucking up."

>>162626
hahaha cs majors are adorable

>>162645
Yep. No argument. I figured

Be honest do you guys think a graphic design degree can make some money with a lot of effort put into it

or naw

>>162647
obviously he's just trying to get you mad.

>it'sworkingbtw

>>162626
Same here, Im getting bachelors and masters in cs through a combined program at a low tuition school with good programs and everyone says Im a dumbass.
Im just guessing they are shills who dont want to be replaced by computers or psuedo hypocritical cs/ce majors.

>>162009

You can't just look at salaries to pick a career. Each of those careers is lucrative, so pick the one you'll be happiest with. A miserable worker will make much less money than a happy one.

>>162673
You are probably right, but god damn /biz/ is full of anti-CS claiming it's a risky field, and I've never seen anything to back up the claim.

>>162626
I have a BSEE and an MS in Computer Engineering where half the curriculum was computer science courses. I work in the software industry and make about $140,000 per year total compensation in Texas. I think it's fair to say that I know what I'm talking about.

Engineering and computer science degrees do pay quite well, relatively speaking, to other majors when fresh out of college. The problem with these fields is that the U.S. government, with "encouragement" from the corporations, actively passes policies that punish workers in this field. From H1-B visas that are a form of indentured servitude for foreigners who are shockingly shitty at the work to age discrimination on the part of a good number of companies, this is not exactly a great field to be in unless you know what to expect.

Unless things change in the U.S., people entering this field should expect to have about 20 years in which to either amass a large enough amount of money to not be afraid of being laid off for good or become management: either for a corporation or starting one's own company.

most profitable?

> self taught: $0
> profitability ratio? infinite.

>>162687
Nice. I'm actually doing the same thing (five year bachelors/masters combined) for CS, and planning to minor in EE in addition. I've already gotten offers even though I have a year and a half to go, and have had two internships under my belt. It's a good field.

>>162009

Actuaries make a very handsome salary and, for whatever reason, they have not been outsourced to India en masse.

In addition to typically working in the insurance industry, actuaries can also find work on Wall Street as risk analysts.

Mind you, you have to be able to tolerate the mathematics and rather boring work. But work as a pure actuary (not on Wall Street) pays very well and is a fairly low-stress position.

>>162703
That does make some sense. I guess I really don't think about it too much though; I'd always be fine leaving the country if that's what it came to. I doubt all "good" countries to live in are going to have their engineering fields collapse within 20 years.

What about the most profitable community college degrees? Talking AAs and certificates.

>>162717

low stress? you sure about that?

>>162721
It's not a collapse so much as it's a race to zero. Corporations are short-sighted and seek the cheapest possible labor, which is usually in places like China, India, and eventually Vietnam. (I'm surprised Eastern Europe outsourcing isn't more prevalent in the U.S.)

The only countries I know of where they a person can be technical for his whole career are Japan, Germany, and the Scandinavian countries. Interestingly, these are the developed countries that typically have a current account surpluses.

If you choose to go to another country, do it while you're relatively young. Reasonably, no nation wants to take in old people because they have higher health care costs and will not have as many productive years left as someone young.

>>162735
Yes, I'm quite sure. I have friends who are actuaries.

Mind you, low stress doesn't mean you show up to work and masturbate all day while making $300,000 per year. If you expect to go anywhere, you have to pass the exams to get your associateship and that is a fair amount of work.

However, I would say being an actuary is far less stressful than being a software engineer working at a start-up. Not only that, each time you pass one of the exams to get your associateship, you typically get a raise. I'm not sure if that has changed or not but I doubt it.

I've never heard of a job in technology where getting some sort of certification (and they're all bullshit) got you an automatic raise without even asking for one.

>>162717
I plan on investing my money into stocks early on, because I am very frugal and dont need much to live off of. I am also pretty good at stocks atm from paper trading and simulations.

>>161967
Engineering degrees typically make the most.

Economics is a good one for making money through not actually working, which is why its my degree

>>162756
Good for you. I would recommend anyone who hasn't read it to read, "The Millionaire Next Door." (Check it out of a library if you don't want to buy it.) While it doesn't really tell you how to become rich, it makes it much easier to understand why everybody else seems rich: they've bought everything on debt and have no measurable net worth.

If you're an engineer or software developer and are relatively smart with money (you don't have to be a hedge fund manager badass), you should easily be able to have a net worth of at least $500,000 by the time you're 40. If you're better at saving and investing, you should top $1,000,000 net worth.

And all of this assumes you don't get lucky with equity at a start-up.

>>161967
These thread seriously need to stop

>>162561
You're a misguided, arrogant, stereotypical autist. Congrats on perpetuating that.

>>162873
>giving actual advice
>arrogant
>autistic

Wut

I can't say that doesn't mean I'm misguided because it is possible that I'm wrong (not likely), but seriously what prompted that?

>>162832
in my country, great britain, you can make £1,000,000 working in a super market from 16-65

>>162919
Hmmm....

I'm somewhat aware of what wages are in Britain but I'm assuming that you're talking about gross wages over that time and not net after taxes and expenses? I'm saying that a skilled technical person in the U.S. who doesn't squander his money will have at least $500,000 after taxes, living expenses, etc. after having worked from age 23 to 40. If he can keep his job, from ages 40 to 65 are the years where he should be earning the most money: easily grossing $150,000 per annum for a total of $3.75mln gross over those years.

If the person can keep just 30% of that money after taxes and expenses, that's another $1mln and we're not assuming any investment gains.

I view the situation in Britain as where the U.S. is going to be in a generation or two if we don't get our heads out of our asses and wipe out the entrenched rentiers that are ruining this country.

All degrees are profitable... to the university.

>>162955
british people are far wealthier on average than the usa, the median usa net worth is what, $30-50k?

binmen are on $50k a year here

1 in 10 a millionaires,

Like positive thoughts, I have learned from the book,. "The Secret" that if you think hard enough...it will manifest into reality.

Just study what you like like Philosophy or Environmental Justice. Just make sure you keep visualizing yourself being rich.

That's really it OP

>>162984
whatever you say m8

I ended up getting a bachelors in IT Management. I would have definitely did something else knowing what I know now and I can't say I would recommend the degree at all.

I did end up with a pretty good career but I had to work for it pretty hard.

There are no useless degrees, only useless people.

>>162984
Without digging up the references, I do seem to recall that the standard of living is higher in the U.S. than in Britain. I'm not saying this to to be unpleasant or rude, it's just what I remember. (Median net worth in the U.S. is $200K per this article on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_the_United_States).).

Mind you, I'm sure Britain has a much better minimum wage and social safety net than the U.S. It's positively dreadful here and it's exacerbated by the awful illegal immigrants from south of the border.

As for 1/10 being millionaires in Britain (1 million USD or 1 million GBP?), I suspect that's because of all the Russian oligarchs and Chinese kleptocrats. I've visited London before and while the bankers are certainly well-off, I cannot say the same of the regular people.

>>162984

Countries in order GDP per capita.

>US #6
>UK #21

>>163014
this, there are a stupidly high amount of £1m+ salary men with degrees in stupid shit like history and classics

>>163031
no, 1 in 10 regular people are millionaires, in the 40-60 bracket its something like 6 in 10

http://www.middleclasspoliticaleconomist.com/2012/07/us-trails-at-least-15-oecd-countries-in.html

Ausfags are killing everyone

>>163033
this is meaningless, there are a handful 1% ers skewing the top figures

you want to look at the median to get an idea of the average citizen, not the mean.

the usa has a terrible median net wealth, the median net is 50k,

in the uk its 120k

>>163040
>http://www.middleclasspoliticaleconomist.com/2012/07/us-trails-at-least-15-oecd-countries-in.html

Thanks, this is very interesting and I'm going to do some research to verify the facts. I seriously doubt Italians are that much wealthier than Americans. I would have thought that Norway would have been near the top in median net worth.

The Australians are kicking ass thanks to their mining boom (which could turn to bust if China kicks over) and Canada is living on borrowed time because their housing bubble will devastate median income just as the U.S.'s housing bubble devastated the typical person.

>>163053

Attached picture shows the top 10 countries with the highest median household income.

Uh oh, where'd Britain go?

>>163053
This is better data from the U.S. Census Bureau:

http://www.census.gov/people/wealth/

The median net worth data from 2010 states median household net worth as $66,740 which is far worse than I could have imagined. Of course, after multiple rounds of quantitative easing, I'm pretty sure those numbers are higher although I don't know what percentage of the QE pie the median person got.

Damn it. This place is a banana republic. :(

>>163053
>in the uk its 120k

>>163053

It's also more expensive to live in the UK. Purchasing power wise, you are still behind.

>>163072
Holy fuck, this picture gets me so hyped to start work. I'm just about to graduate with a degree in Geophysics and I'm making almost double my countries household median right out the door. Thank you, Anon

>>162997
>I can't say I would recommend the degree at all.
Can you elaborate further?
I'm working as an IT intern in a ministry right now.
Some of the people I work with say this career might not be worth it?
Should I just switch?

Liberal Arts, obviously.

What about trades?

They seem to be more profitable in the long run, if you compare two years at a vocational college to four - six years at a university.

Some don't even require journeyman status, such as HVAC. When you finish, you can walk into the industry making ~$25/hr.

But if it were all about salary then you're fucking yourself into a doomed life of misery and wage slavery. Just balance what you like with what's profitable.

>>162009
Comp Sci, hands down.

>>163120

>geophysics

What the fuck do you even do m8?
Correllate logs

>>163305

trades are worth it, but you must consider a few things:

1. you will need to be /fit/ and eat a healthy diet
2. you will be constantly in training for more certs and licenses
3. the end goal of any career tradesmen (as in someone who wants to be in it for more than a decade) is to become a foreman and later an engineer. This might mean you have to go to school, but once you become an official Civil Engineer you will basically be rolling in money (though it takes 6+ years to be one, because you have to put in a lot of hours and get sponsored by an employer)

>>163359
Well I'm considering electrical technology as a vocation, but it seems like electrical engineers are going down the toilet these days.

My plan B was to just do HVAC for two years then go to a four year university on a transfer scholarship and finish my last two years of college in a construction management degree.

>>162009
Any of them. Pick whichever one you're naturally the best at, and if you develop decent people/business skills along the way you won't have problems making money.

>>162759
>software engineer working at a start-up
this is a pretty poor option in general. start-ups are usually only in major cities, where there are other jobs that pay much higher and are more stable

>>163383

> electrical engineers are going down the toilet these days.

It depends, in the trades being an electrician is still a good idea, but only if you go Union (at least in my experience).

And "construction management" degrees are bullshit, contractors look for experience and inhouse refrences above all else. Every contractor I've been employed by would rather hire someone with a decade of experience as a foreman or supervisor than some guy with limited industry experience with a degree. If you stick with the trade, eat up as many certs as possible, and network you will be able to find management work in the later half of your career.

>>163404
So just say fuck it and major in finance then?

>>163383
A relative of mine went into electrical engineering and has worked at a stamping/assembly plant for a while now. I wouldnt go into it today with automation

>>163383
>electrical engineers are going down the toilet these days

I wouldn't base your career choice on a passing phase like that. As soon as you start hearing in the news that a specific type of worker is in high demand, you can bet your ass there'll be a billion kids signing up for classes. By the time you graduate, the fields that were "desperately lacking" workers will be hilariously oversaturated, and the ones you heard were heading off the cliff will be "in dire need".

>>163412
That's what I'm afraid of.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has EEs at an alltime low for employment outlook in the next 10 years.

Welders aren't doing very well either, since robots can weld better than people, and I really don't want to work for a union so I guess that knocks the idea of a career as an electrician out of frame.

>>163420
The field has been steadily decreasing for years now though. I'm not going into something just because it has a good job outlook. I want to do something I like, but I also want something that will put food on the table. Ideally I'd want something that will always be in demand. I guess the only option is the medical field, really. I'm not really smart enough to become an engineer.

>>163410
depends if u dont think finance is boring. money is important anon but not at the cost of doing shit you hate

>>163438
I've always found finance and banking to be interesting, but I have no idea what the actual work itself is like.

Where would I end up with a finance degree? Working in a bank?

>>162561
>Implying all state schools are shit tier.

>>162610
>http://careers.mines.edu/Files/2012-2013AnnualOutcomes121013rev.pdf

>Colorado School of Mines is a public research university

It's public so it still gets federally funded like a state school, correct?

Either or, looks like a nice university.

>>162695

CS is actually pretty unpredictable. Like, there are regular and fairly significant fluctuations in employment. I mean, you're pretty likely to get a job if you're in programming or engineering no matter what, but software is a fad-filled, buzzword-driven industry. There's a lot of crazy speculation and hype that never ends up going anywhere.

>>163446
Yeah, it's federally funded.

I think I worded what I said poorly; obviously not all state schools are shit-tier (Penn State comes to mind). I was trying to allude to the point that a lot of people who claim college is worthless got worthless degrees from unremarkable schools. I have nothing against public schools as a whole; as you pointed out I attend one. I worded it very poorly, though.

It's a very good school, but it is very specialized. It is entirely engineering and pure science majors here (I think I've met one econ major but he was doubling in something else, maybe chemical engineering). There's nothing here for non-STEM interested people.

I'm in the camp of major in what ever the hell you want to major in.

The job market fluctuates and what was high employment years ago can be low or no employment now.

The key is to realize what you're getting into and don't expect to be handed a job just because you got a degree.

Also, don't spend so much damn money. I don't care if you're guaranteed a $100,000/yr job after college. Do you want the bulk of your salary going to student loans payments?

I don't think so...

>>162695
basically: do whatever in CS but realize that mobile app hype/the current web 3.0 whatever start-up fad is a bubble that's about to burst, so try a different sub-field

>>162722
i wish this was answered

>>163495
Bullshit

Engineering 20 years ago would get you a decent job and assuming you weren't an autist with 0 social skills you should have been making six figures (inflation equivalent) before you hit 30.

Same today

As long as engineering will serve as a proxy for high level thinking you will always have a decent place in the job market.

Of course, assuming you aren't socially retarded.

>>163514
AA in Nursing is profitable, there is also Respiratory Technician, pretty much anything medical related. Except Paramedic, EMS is the lowest paying medical profession.

>>162722
>>163514
IT certs aren't that difficult/expensive and IT pays pretty well. Trade schools aren't bad either if you want to be an electrician or something.

>>163486

Oh, okay.

Overall, looks like a good university.

Never heard of it till now.

I'm gonna give it a try.

Thanks.

>>163516

Of course, engineering serves well, but it can get cold at times too.

Hasn't civil engineering and electrical engineering taken a dip over the past few years?

>>163442
id like this answered as well

>>163572
it ranges from investment banker to actuary to accountant to bank teller, it really depends on what other skills/degrees you pick up and who you work for

>>163572
I heard an interview somewhere (I think NPR) where there was an investment banker. He said the first couple years, they make the new guys work 100+ hours a week, which burns out most of them. The guys left are pretty much guaranteed promotions to less intensive positions though.

>2014
>still thinking your degree makes you money

Top pleb. There are certain degrees that might make you more money right out of college. But a degree doesn't make you real money. There are some degrees that might get you straight into the middle class right out of college though. Doesn't mean that those jobs have a high ceiling.

>>163355
Seismic data analysis mostly. My job is more Seismic Analysis/IT though so at least I can start getting outside experience for when the industry takes a turn and I need to jump ship.

>>161967

Art history. Nuff said.

>>162626
>Now somebody tell me why a computer science degree from a good school is "fucking up."

Because the course work is beyond pathetic and and a degree is not even needed for most of those jobs anyway. Nothing is stopping it from being flooded and salaries from crashing to janitor levels.

An EE major with a CS minor in upper level courses is far better off

>>161967
It really depends on the markets that are available to you, growth and other economics shit.

>>163397
My response was targeted at the person who seemed to question my statement that actuaries have a low stress job.

The actuaries I know only work 40 hours a week and they make far more than any engineer I know.

I perhaps shouldn't have said start-up because there are large companies that work their software teams pretty hard. One of the things that software people have to learn to do (the sooner the better) is to say, "No" to overtime, especially if it's because someone else fucks up.

>Study EE
>Read this thread

Shit

Problem with medicine is that there's too much years of study for it to be truly profitable. Even cosmetic/cardiac/orthopedic surgeons who make around 500k and more don't really get paid much when you consider the time and money they've poured into studying, and residency for some. Not to mention the costs of medical malpractice insurance, and the taxes.
Dentists are probably the highest paid medical professionals if they're independent and in a good area, but then again, some schools will charge 150k+/year for the required education.
Nursing is another option, but you'll be earning ~120k at most and wiping asses. And if you want to get into anesthesiology from nursing, you won't be able to avoid the long and time consuming medical training.

If medicine required something like a PhD, or at least the same amount of years (~8) instead of between ten and twelve + residency, I'd do it. But it's not the case, unless there's some obscure medical profession that requires less years of study than the others (in which case, do enlighten me).

As for law, if you're not from Harvard/Yale/Stanford, good luck. Even then, law is really bloated, I think.
Finance is hit or miss from what I've heard, and getting into a hedge fund is extremely hard. I might be mistaken though.

I don't know much about engineering but can you actually make more than 150-200k working as a paid engineer, regardless of the specialty? Unless you're a petrochemical engineer in Qatar, it seems unlikely.

I've come to the point where I want to get into a field that will allow for a high starting salary and very good opportunities for said salary to evolve, in the shortest amount of time possible. Which field pays the most while requiring a normal amount of years of study or experience?
Making 500k is nice, but if you're fifty by the time it happens because you had to work like a slave for twenty five years, it's not fun anymore.

Physics is a great degree to have. It's very versatile, and it combines well with a business/econ degree. Loads of different career paths are available if you've done physics, because you learn useful skills - problem-solving, logical thinking, computer programming, and so on.

phd in math
any job i want
300k starting

>>163516
>six figures (inflation equivalent) before you hit 30.

I know plenty of Engineers and none of them make six figures besides the managers - at which point they're not even doing engineering anymore.

>>164464
>300k starting
Every time

>>165417
Depends on the level of engineering. My local GE Oil and Gas employs grease-monkeys, weightlifters and people with no Standards Grades for close to minimum wage and what they do operate machinery on the factory floor. The top-dog engineers are pulled in from Uni or old guys that used to be floor serfs and set them on programming the machines via 3D modeling software (which is then sent downstairs to the floor machines.) There's a fair amount of variation in that one factory creating ONLY sub-sea oil and gas "trees" (which are a small part of the requirements for drilling and obtaining oil, gas and natural resource in the North Sea). Engineering is fuck-all huge and there's always a demand for it, the only difference now is that the number of unskilled workers has gone down because machines are now automated or controlled remotely. Instead of 10 17 year olds that just left school to work in an unskilled job, you need one or two programmers (or even just someone trained in the software) and one or two administrators on the floor checking and double-checking the workforce and the machines.

>>162717

Some companies are starting to hold off on the accounting out sourcing since unsurprisingly, people who barely speak english don't do well with complex data written in English.

>>161967
>>161967
dental hygiene

i started out with mathematics undergrad degree. then did some actuarial science. then statistics. then machine learning. perfect mix is this

1. start maths to get rigour
2. learn statistics to apply models
3. learn machine learning to make the models

>>162759
If you're the appointed actuary and signing off on reserves and have auditors up your ass all day it can be stressful. Also way too many entry level students fucking up the salary, which I think will push through to mid level in the coming years. Exams were a total grind especially when working long day then coming home to study.
Source: I'm an actuary.

>>162962
>MFW full ride grants

>>166166
>yfw you don't even understand his post
kek

>>162620
>anyone can code
this is true, coding is not hard
being a good coder, doing advance programming, and actually knowing your shit is different though

you can be a mediocre programming at any company, but to actually work where the money might be, you need to be good

coding is like writing
ANYBODY can write
but not anybody can write a book, let alone a good book

>>163919
>>>/g/
>>>/sci/

No degree makes money. It's what you can do, and no degree teaches you anything you can't learn on the internet/library (except for probably medicine).
Degrees only serve to "guarantee" to an extent that you have certain skills which makes it easier for you to market those skills.
It's like advertising for yourself. Would you advertise yourself as a mechanic if you can't do any type of car-fixing or even want to?
Then why choose a degree based on what you think will make you money? You make yourself money through your job. Make an effort to get paid for doing what you want to do. Set some standards for yourself.

>>165417
It depends on where you live, too.

I'm in Houston, Texas and most of the software people I know gross six figures. It goes without saying that petroleum and chemical engineers gross six figures.