/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>15619169
Fuck off, Nouriel

>>15619169

People who say this shit don't know what a ponzi is

As many problems as their are with bitcoin the ponzi scheme FUD is the weakest. BTC has a pretty equitable distribution. People always imagine they’re buying the bags of a handful of NEET whales, but the truth is no one started hodling btc until it hit 22000.

>>15619169
>Why the fuck would anybody ever buy BTC?
Because they hate the environment and want to waste electricity.

>>15619169
>but the truth is no one started hodling btc until it hit 22000.
>22000

What european mudlsime village do you live in where BTC reached 22000 of your currency? Everyone on /biz/ talks about BTC in USD because the US is the #1 country of the world.

>>15619169
for me its the drugs, then i keep some in hopes of making it

>>15619971

Wish i was an american instead of an europoor desu.
Hope I get into the /Midwest/ citadel

>>15619169
Because they think they are going to dump it higher.
It's going to last as long as people that think like that have money left.

>>15619207
People only buy into it, so they can later cash out (read: dump) on new investors at a higher price? Sounds like a ponzi to me.

>>15619207
>People who say this shit don't know what a ponzi is
Right? You can google charles ponzi, these dudes are idiots
>>15621129
No a ponzi is where you lie to or fraud investors with money from others.
You think any market transaction is a ponzi if the value goes up? People buy, stocks, gold, art, land, and many other things for the only reason of getting more $.
>>15620317
You just described human greed for wealth, you think humans aren't going to be greedy soon?

Everyone buys BTC because a million different reasons but the underlining cause is because we are all greedy.

Is it the market scarcity that you guys think is a scam? Because companies print more stock than BTC? Because BTC inflation is so low?

I think the other asset classes have systems designed to scam. I don't trust people, especially banks, that's why I personally buy the transparent BTC. I need to research my investments and BTC is an open book

I dont. I do something constructive with my time

>>15619169
Human life is a ponzi scheme.

>>15619169
It’s been how many years and we are still talking about this?

>>15621375
>No a ponzi is where you lie to or fraud investors with money from others.
that's literally what bitcoin is. Every profit made on btc means someone else lost that amount. That includes money taken away by miners and exchanges, literally billions each year.
>Is it the market scarcity that you guys think is a scam?
scarcity is not a source of value. Every ponzi has some bullshit narrative as to where the money is coming from, but what makes a ponzi a ponzi is the fact that all profits can only ever come from future "investors".

>>15619169
Probably because it's the only crypto that matters. Also anyone who legitimately thinks it's a Ponzi scheme is literally retarded 80iq subhuman tier

>>15619169
So is the US Dollar kek. Besides I don't care, as long as I can money off it. Also trading alts that respect TA. Uos/usdt is a easy trade

>>15621484
Is oil a Ponzi?

>>15621515
oil has utility, which makes it valuable in itself.

>>15621523
Every profit made on oil means someone lost that amount. By your definition it's a Ponzi. And bitcoin has utility too :)

>>15619169
24/7 value transfer protocol that is immutable, virtually impossible to defraud, borderless, deflationary, and doesn't require a trusted third party, thereby saving countless shekels

>It’s literally a Ponzi scam.
It is, just don't be the greatest fool and you're set.

>>15621375
>No a ponzi is where you lie to or fraud investors with money from others.

You mean like calling it a store of value (false narrative), telling people it will go to 100k (false predictions), calling it digital gold (false analogy)? Yes that's a scam. Looks like a ponzi, smells like a ponzi - is in fact a ponzi.

>>15621484
>but what makes a ponzi a ponzi is the fact that all profits can only ever come from future "investors".
you described every asset in the world.
Value isn't anything outside of what we say it is. You have trouble understanding what charles ponzi did.
BTC has a million sources of value but you can boil it down to it's most basic element. Greed. That's why I buy stocks too.
>>15621523
BTC has many more utilities than oil. You don't know anything about computers, network security, run time, etc
OIL can't be programmed with code, BTC can and in this world that value grows every day.

Wake up you idiots

>>15621603
we told you it would go to 1k it was a ponzi, 10k still a ponzi, when it gets to 100k you still wont learn what a ponzi is?

>>15621618
>Value isn't anything outside of what we say it is
always the same bullshit from scams, "value is what you believe in", "economy isn't real".
>BTC has a million sources of value
it has literally zero
>BTC has many more utilities than oil.
it doesn't have any left
>OIL can't be programmed with code, BTC can and in this world that value grows every day.
ethereum does that better, which means bitcoin can't claim any value from it.
>>15621632
how high it goes is irrelevant, state pension systems are the biggest ponzi schemes in history worth literally trillions. Doesn't change the fact they are ponzi schemes.

>>15621603
A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/, Italian: [ˈpontsi]; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors.[2] The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from product sales or other means, and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds.>>15621579
you guys can't read?
Every asset that's sold on an open market is a ponzi? or just the ones whose use case is new and hard for you to understand


BTC gets value from inflation from global currencies and most countries see it as a weapon against their own central banks, us americans will come around to looking at BTC's use case as the same but we need a $ crash first

>>15621667
>is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors
where does the wealth come from when you sell btc?
Does it come from someone buying it to gain any utility? No. It comes from a guy who buys btc thinking it's going to go up and he can sell it higher.
>Every asset that's sold on an open market is a ponzi?
it's not a ponzi if profits don't come from losses somewhere else. Bitcoin is a zero sum game.
>or just the ones whose use case is new
Bitcoin is over 10 years old. It's not new by any means. Whatever it could achieve it already happened. It turned out to be nothing more than a speculative collectible.

>>15621663
>how high it goes is irrelevant
it's irrelevant for you but I make money by investing. I love stats and history and what the market decides is my guide. I can't live in fantasy like yours and still make money. You say ETH does this better so it can't be valuable for BTC? Do you get why this is dumb?
You say you don't care about price but some of us only care about these stats.
You're having a hard time recognizing why everyone is making $ in crypto so it upsets you.
BTC's greatest utility is a store of value. That's why 3rd world countries are paying premiums to buy BTC, they have to recognize BTC's use cases. Japan and the US think of it like stocks so many there will think of it as a ponzi

I think central banks are running ponzi schemes so maybe I'm nuts. I just see how none of them can or want to stop inflation, if that's the case saving isn't that smart.

>>15621667
>is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors.[2]

This is EXACTLY what BTC is. There's barely any use case, and it's marketed on false premises to trick people into buying it, which are completely untrue e.g. being a store of value. You are not investing in a company that is building any valuable product or service, you are only investing hoping that price will go UP as more people after you will be tricked.

Glad you could seal it, BTC is a literal ponzi.

BTC is digital gold you idiots
it is a safe harbor

>>15619169
hab seks incul

>>15619169
>doesn’t understand a utility when they see one
>doesn’t know what a Ponzi scheme is
>doesn’t look into what makes crypto valuable
Welcome to biz newfag

>>15619169
to buy cheap drugs from europe? some people severely underestimate the utility of BTC in some cases. Big reason why BTC is not a shitcoin is because there is always demand to buy BTC to buy drugs

>>15621731
I bought BTC because Banks wouldn't touch me. I saved over $100k in BTC, i would never trust a shitcoin with that % of my wealth. it was 100% before I sold for rental property>>15621731
>it's not a ponzi if profits don't come from losses somewhere else.
that's every trade ever. from the beginning of history, taker/maker

you're really stupid, huh?

you want me to use a 401k? it would have took me years. I turned 3 years of wagecuck into 6 digits wealth, in under 4 years motherfucker
and 401k's arent the scam?

Believe what you want but people called it a scam years ago and BTC still keeps pumping.

Scam, ponzi, you guys need to understand these words before using them
>>15621758
BTC never frauded anyone
no one company owns it
you guys are calling a network a scam just for existing

BTC never promised anything, BTC doesn't do anything except run on computers.

You cut out the part that described ponzi's fraud but no one has ever sued BTC because you can't be frauded by something that is indifferent towards you

you guys think BTC is coke or starbucks.
it's a fucking computer network

>>15619169
BTC is the biggest scam crypto in the space.

I buy what >>15619169 says.

BTC and cryptocurrencies seem like meaningless tokens that're all arbitrary hype and no actual consistent growing utility, paraded around in a ponzi scheme.

If it's not that, what utility does BTC have aside from how bad you can fuck the next person you sell it to?

>>15621507
>7 transactions a second
BTCs only special claim is that it's first. If it launched today people will laugh at it. It has 0 use cases.

>>15621839
That's one use case, a better one is offshore bank account, there's a million but why should we tell these dum dums? Let them stay poor or do the research we have, I have no sympathy for ignorance

>>15621743
>it's irrelevant for you but I make money by investing.
are you really? did you take more money out that you took in?
Even if you did, you only did it at the cost of someone else.
>You say ETH does this better so it can't be valuable for BTC?
it's a winner take all market.
>BTC's greatest utility is a store of value
hahaha no, it's absolutely horrible at it. Literally, look at the chart. A store of value is supposed to store it.
>>15621868
>that's every trade ever. from the beginning of history, taker/maker
Think how absurd that claim is, if that was true the total amount of wealth in the world would be static.
Normal trade is beneficial to both parties.
>BTC never promised anything
no ponzi scheme itself ever did anything, ponzi schemes are operated by people.
Btc is a very innovative version of it - a decentralized ponzi scheme with no clear leader, making it very hard to shut down with legal means. Yes, that's new, but it's still a ponzi scheme.

>>15621896
I dont have time to explain central banks, fractional reserve, negative interest rates and inflation.
If you don't understand BTC, don't buy it. Never buy something you don't understand.
BTC didn't need you to understand it to get to $10k
>>15621937
argentina disagrees

2046, ZERO mining rewards, node operators will have to use google sized data centers FOR FREE. Miners do not receive transaction fees from the Lightning network (aka Blockstream bankers network) coincidence? BTC Litterally will somehow have to survive entirely on the EXTREMELY expensive Tx fees (like $10,000 per transaction, u think blockstream is gonna let BTC scale, TOP KEK xD) or it will fail. Unlike LINK which is built to run indefinitely through staking and already fired all the undercover BlockStream sjws developers. Praise Sergey

>>15621868
It's not 2010 litterally every Alt can do that even DOGE xDD

>>15621944
>it's a winner take all market
it never is. Name one market that is winner take all? Crypto doesn't have government granting monopolies that's why its a scam to you.
>hahaha no, it's absolutely horrible at it. Literally, look at the chart. A store of value is supposed to store it.
The chart say it's the greatest store of value, it always recovers from it's dips and goes way beyond. You can't look at 1 year and judge the whole asset.
You don't understand trade. When i buy something i lose what I paid. No one ever got scammed by BTC.
Scammers exist around BTC just like everything else but BTC is a scam to you because you were raised by central bankers, they decided your school curriculum so of course BTC looks fishy to you.
If it can't be inflated to suck everyones value away it must be a scam

many levels of retard with you

>>15622035
supply and demand
all alts have less demand and greater supplies.

alts can't be bought by the unbanked like BTC i see BTC atms and most apps. plus why would I trust an alt with so much? BTC is rsky enough but less than half as risky as all other alts

good currencies are bad for gains. keep spending alts while i hold btc

>>15621563
you forgot IMPOSSIBLE TO SEIZE BY GOVERNMENT AND TAX AUTHORITIES since you control the funds

>>15621663
>ethereum does that better
but ethereum is also inflationary, and pos will only increase inequalities, literally a vitalik oligarchy
but yeah, eth is good, but only 20% of my stack is in eth, 80% is in btc

>>15622018
less miners = lower difficulty required to mine = less power required = same tx fees for users = mining still profitable

Because BTC seems to be the emperor of crypto. Many people speak of Bitcoin instead of crypto. Biggest marketcap, biggest everything.

>>15622046
>Name one market that is winner take all?
Protocols, like http or ethernet.
Many competitors existed in the beginning.
>You don't understand trade. When i buy something i lose what I paid.
The utility of the same object can be different to different people. That's why total wealth in the world can grow.
If you make shoes the utility of every new pair you make is trending to zero, but they are much more valuable to other people that don't have shoes. Or if you make tools, the buyers gain because they can work more efficiently.
The same principle works indirectly for investments. Wealth is first used to improve productive capabilities. If successful, this creates completely new wealth. Investors and customers share the gains among themselves. Everyone gains.

When nobody gains in a trade it's a zero-sum situation. Poker is a zero-sum situation, or speculating on worthless tokens. There's no utility gained anywhere, existing wealth is only redistributed between participants. That's bitcoin today.

>>15622232
>but they are much more valuable to other people that don't have shoes.
this right here explains why you think BTC has no value and I think there's nothing more valuable right now.
For anyone with bank accounts and a strong national currency, BTC looks like a more secure, scarce and slow version of other cryptos. If you own stock then BTC isn't that useful to you for speculation. For someone making min wage like me BTC was my only shot to make it.

For venezuelans or agentinians BTC is better than gold and the use case is stroner than in the US. All because their bank destroyed the Bolivar. The $ is doing really well the last 30 years, compared to others so BTC isn't that impressive or needed.
I think a 24 hour financial network like BTC is the future of trading, that's why I keep using it and making money doing it. That to me is more valuable than any trading system the boomers gave us. I trade traditional instruments too so it's easier for me to see how BTC is cheaper, faster, more secure, transparent, and accessible.

But if you love your $5 fee on fidelity, your dollar based savings account, 401k filled with mutual funds and bonds, then I get it.
I can see why you wouldn't be impressed with security, scarcity, and accessibility. I felt like I had to use BTC to get my other assets. It worked for me because I did the research and put years into understanding this space.

You can keep calling BTC worthless, I'll call fiat overvalued. The decider is the market and the market keeps selling dollars for BTC without any sign of slowing down.

>>15622232
I can teach anyone how to make money on poker. Like everything else you just need to work at it

I don’t know if it’s a ponzi by definition , but I will say that btc is not a store of value, and it’s never going to be adopted as an actual currency . No one will admit it, but it’s only function is literally as a gambling vehicle . It’s just a mechanism used by whales to make profit and then dump on each other.

>>15621944
>it's a winner take all market
this is how everyone thinks and they are all so surprised that there coin hasnt become the only one yet.

It's because us burgers are raised on monopolies. We have a hard time imagining a free market without tax breaks and advantages given to one side so that they can corner the market. BTC isn't a company so even if it falls, it would never die, only wither.

>but competition isn't healthy, I want a monopoly

crypto won't be a winner take all but we will be better off with these cryptos competing with each other. The relationship between ETH and BTC is mostly beneficial and ETH needs BTC for $ gains, which is what non-nerds care about.

You guys are so short sided that you have trouble understanding this all.

>>15622963
It's the same for trading. Anyone who wants to put the work in can find and learn an edge but you still need to be disciplined to stay in the green and follow your plan. Altcoiners invest on memes and gut so they don't care about transparency or security, they want the riskiest investment they can find.

That dude is hopeless, he's comparing the utility of shoes to BTC. He also thinks 1 crypto will take the whole market.

>>15623004
>It’s just a mechanism used by whales to make profit and then dump on each other.
Its sad that this is what BTC is to most americans, while other countries learn other sides of BTC.

We don't have our $ collapsing and soldiers stealing our wealth so maybe it's great that we don't value BTC here.

>>15623033
I hope they don’t have people on TV in shithole countries preaching about Bitcoin yet. I want us to make gains too

>>15620239
Fuck off we're full

>>15623056
Shithole countries give crypto another facet of value you fucking pleb. What happens when your hyperinflated fiat fucks your asshole but you have an internet connection?

>>15619169
Why would anyone buy a diamond? It's literally a rock.

Why would anyone buy oil? It's literally slime.

Why would anyone buy a bond? It's literally debt.

>>15622826
>For venezuelans or agentinians BTC is better than gold
no, for them the best store of value is dai or maybe even usdt. Bitcoin is a horrible choice for poor people, they can't afford a big loss.
>>15623005
>this is how everyone thinks and they are all so surprised that there coin hasnt become the only one yet.
It's a temporary situation due to scaling deficiencies.
>>15622963
>I can teach anyone how to make money on poker.
That's literally impossible because in a zero-sum game someone must lose.

>>15621937
Meanwhile your utility token of choice is 99% down from ATH and bitcoin is still trading at 10k, really makes you think

>>15623409
no one uses DAI and we can't convince normies to interact with smart contracts, i'm trying. sablecoins are horrible stores of value because they're attached to fiat which loses around 2-5% every year and that shit compounds. I'm not storing value in something designed to lose value at 2%. That's stupid to me. I store my value where it will be protected in the future, volatility doesn't scare me if I believe in the other fundamentals.
BTC looks much more volatile to you than it does to anyone with Argentinian Peso or Venezuelan Bolivars. It's a different chart and BTC has already hit ATH.

For Americans BTC goes up against the dollar around 70% of the time. You say that's a horrible SOV but it goes up against the Bolivar like 90% of the time. To a poor venezuelan that's good enough, they aren't trying to use DAI, I think dollars are legally restricted anyways
>t's a temporary situation due to scaling deficiencies
ETH has been getting clogged for years
>>15623554
Use cases are great but not if no one holds it.
They thought buying use cases was the key to crypto, or TX times. We're nerds arguing over internet coins but normies don't care about NANO.