/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>13968541
so how do you prevent a group from taking over and becoming your new government? also this is a business and finance board.

Based and goldpilled. Fuck the state and fuck the tax kikes.

>>13968575
Guns and decentralized technology.
>also this is a business and finance board
Anarchocapitalism is THE /biz/ ideology.

>>13968541
Any field or theory that isn't pure mathematics but uses reasoning from "axioms" of any sort is a sign of people who don't know how to think properly and is guaranteed to be substantially wrong in fundamental ways. Prove me wrong

It's a shame we live in a world full of savages who all find a point at which they're willing to say that it's okay to initiate violence to force their ideologies upon others.

>>13968541
>classical liberalism
>anarcho anything
Pick one u faget

>>13968609
Proof of burden is on you sweetie. Try proving libertarian axioms wrong.

>>13968629
Jesus, what a brainlet response. Way to prove my point about "people not knowing how to think properly". The entire point of an axiom is that you can't prove it right or wrong, you just accept it as a starting point. Much like Marxism, Austrian economics, and any other attempt to reason from axiomatic first principles is literally cargo cult mathematics. You think it gives you rigor and correctness but you're using a tool that's completely wrong for the job you're trying to do so you achieve nothing.

The state is the only reason capitalism even exists and developed into the global economic system. Ancaps have down syndrome.

>>13968655
Thank you for your participation.

>>13968541
>We anarcho-capitalists hold to libertarianism---the ideology
Nah, we hold to the non aggression principal. Everything comes through that.

>>13968682
Wrong, the state actively suppresses capitalism through collectivism and anti-individualism.

>>13968685
You're welcome, but I sure hope you at least understood what I was saying and it didn't go completely over your head

>>13968541
Grow up

>>13968743
Pay tax

>>13968709
The state literally enforces capitalist property rights. Any system based on a hierarchical power structure like capitalism requires an all powerful state to enforce, otherwise capitalists would have no power or ownership over their enterprises.

Historically any time workers tried to revolt or challenge this power structure, capitalists always ran to the state to send armed men to restore order

The development and spread of global capitalism in every country from Britain originally to the rest of Europe, US and now places like China/India were also entirely dependant on massive state involvement at every single level.

Like I said, Ancaps have literal downs. This is not up for debate. You guys are the lowest IQ bunch to ever enter the political spectrum.

>>13968817
Wrong again, capitalists can just hire mercenaries to protect their businesses.

>>13968856
If their private mercenaries (whom only they can afford) are strong enough to suppress all of the working class, then capitalists have a monopoly on the use of violence. In other words, a state.

Thanks for playing now back to your mom's chicken tendies.

>>13968856
hire them with what? couldnt the mercs just take your shit? whos going to stop them? the govt?

>>13968908
>all of the working class
How do you suppress 7 billion people?

>>13968912
Hmmmmmmm, this really sounds like the state we have today. Really makes you think.

>>13968924
>>13968947
>doesn't realize he answered his own retarded question from his previous post while attempting to reply to another anon

>>13968924
In reality you don't, unless you have an all powerful state. Which is why capitalism doesn't exist without the state. Hence my point.

>>13968984
the absolute state of ancaps lmao

>>13968991
What I get is that you want guaranteed violence to prevent possible violence. Why are you so retarded?

>>13968856
>a property owning magnate can hire men to fight for him
this sounds familiar

>>13969038
Thanks for proving that states are bad again.

>>13969027
You got your argument roles reversed there anon, these days violence from the state is "possible violence", at least since the fall of the Soviet Union. Ancap mercenaries is "guaranteed violence" just in order to keep the businesses running. There are a hell of a lot of businesses where it would be a lot cheaper to bomb the shit out of your competitors than to actually compete. Bombs can be made pretty cheaply. Ammo is cheaper than drug R&D.

>>13969063
>medieval europe
>states

>>13969067
States are unjustified violence. The other half of your post is straw man garbage.

>>13969027
I haven't said anything about what I want. I'm just describing to you an empirical reality that any hierarchical system/power structure (like the capitalist business structure) needs a monopoly on violent force to enforce and protect.

Hence capitalism has never and can never exist without a state.

Hence ancaps have downs syndrome.

Not difficult.

>>13969116
You'd be more convincing if you didn't try to redefine commonly used words using your ideological definitions that nobody else uses. Violence isn't violence unless someone actually gets hurt. Otherwise it's just "possible violence", which was a great choice of words on your part since it undermines your whole point completely. And I encourage you to try to show why what I said is a straw man, but given that you've been unable to coherently reply to a single thing anyone has said to you in this thread so far I won't get my hopes up

>>13969143
And what's better is that you actually agreed with me, by asking "how do you suppress 7 billion people".

The answer is that you don't, unless you have the backing of the state.

Ancap BTFO's himself because his IQ is sub 60.

>>13969143
Voluntary structures don't need a monopoly on violence.
>>13969150
Tax is violence. (((Law))) enforcement is violence.
>>13969160
Yes, the state is bad because of that.

>>13968575
see >>13968605
should there be a group that rises to being the top/most profitable company through providing people with goods and services that they want in dealings of voluntary commerce, then this group has earned their position.

>>13968682
the way you know that this—in addition to every other collectivist lie—is totally untrue is that when you try to separate from the collectivists in order to run your own economy, completely independent of their infrastructure and influence, they threaten you with a jail sentence and tell you that the individual's desire for separation from their economy should be subject to a democratic vote—a vote that they ultimately must agree to hold, and that never seems to be in discussion. why should it, if this vote should certainly be of detriment to the powers that they have—powers that they fuel through controlling other people's money, rather than through providing people with goods and services in exchange for only those people's money who they are dealing with?

>>13969193
>Tax is violence. (((Law))) enforcement is violence.
>Freedom is slavery
>Ignorance is strength
Ancap libertarian or totalitarian statist, it seems like nobody can resist creating whole belief systems around defining words however the fuck you like, while still implicitly retaining the actual real-people meaning of the words for that essential doublespeak feel

>>13968541
>It's evil therefore we must remove it
wow nice philosophy dude. Anything that you can understand in like 5 minutes is not nuanced enough to be a global political policy

>>13969193
There's nothing voluntary about the capitalist structure. Voluntary by definition means having multiple choices and choosing the one that is best for you. 99% of humanity have no choice but to become a wage slave, or starve and die.

Hence people do not enter the capitalist system voluntarily (in any real sense) and capitalism still needs a monopoly on violence to enforce.

>>13969222
Yes goy, give me all of your money because I know how to spend it better than you. It's for the sake of (((civilization)))!
>>13969223
>thinking about a global political policy
This is your brain on statism.

execute the government members

>>13969266
>Yes goy, give me all of your money because I know how to spend it better than you. It's for the sake of (((civilization)))!
Your arguments are so bad they're actually painful for me to read. That's violence. If I met you IRL I would absolutely shoot you dead in self-defense

>>13969293
Thanks for showing your true colors statenigger

it's literally impossible for capitalism to exist with no government to enforce class relations

>>13969306
joke about your ridiculous abuse of definitions of basic words
insert 2000 miles here
your head

>>13969316
Yet you can't sell drugs/guns and other capitalistic ventures without being jailed or killed by the government.

But seriously though, holy fuck, I almost never visit ancap threads on /biz/ but it's actually rare to see an OP get so utterly btfo so many times by so many people and keep coming back for more like it's nothing. Is this really what ancaps are like?

>>13969381
Thanks for helping me redpill the lurkers on the (((state))).

>>13969381
Yes. Honestly I've never seen a bigger bunch of mentally stunted manchildren. I honestly feel bad for them

Glad OP has basically conceded that capitalism can't exist without the state though. Maybe we are having a breakthrough moment with this one

>>13969436
Pay your taxes incel

>>13969409
It would redpill more people if you were actually able to have an argument with anyone else itt. You know, one of those things we do here sometimes where you reply to someone in a way that actually relates in some way to what they were saying, and then they address your new point, and it goes on like that? All you're able to do is just repeat the same slogans without any sign that you even understand what's being said to you. Are you some kind of new advanced bot, or just an actual NPC?

imagine trying to own property and be a landlord and collect rent from a tenant or trying to run a business and make a profit from extracting the surplus value of an employees labor with no state or cops to back you up. you'd be immediately shot and killed

>>13969485
Imagine trying to run a business without the interference of the state and then getting shot and killed by them. Now that's never happened before!

I cant believe there are still people on this board that are not voluntaryist...we need stronger redpill

>>13969485

Totally missed the point! I'm making an argument for why capitalism won't work anymore when the state is gone, not a case in favor of maintaining the status quo or in favor of having a state. I agree we should still get rid of the state, but we would have to find a different economic model that is capable of functioning without a state.

Just tell me how you believe capitalism would actually work with no state or enforcement and why people wouldn't just kill anybody who tried to make a profit from the labor of others or by collecting rent through property ownership

>>13969536
>>13969644

was replying to you

>>13968541
have fun on college, once it's over and reality comes knocking you won't have time to care about this retarded shit. if you're actually older than 22-23, please rethink your life

>>13969485
you are 100% right anon

>>13969644
Gun control mom tier logic.

based ideology.

>>13969644
Either you are actually gay/female or weigh 100 pounds

ok retard

>>13968541
Look into Veo

Minarchism is based full anarchocapitalism is special needs

>>13969681
He is right though. Maybe didn't explain it that well, but without state enforcement you can't have a system based around a rigidly hierarchical power structure like capitalism (or any other that came before it).

People may not necessarily kill or commit violence to capitalists, but they sure can just ignore their authority and take ownership and control of businesses themselves, in the absence of statist armed goons.

Delusion on par with communism

>>13968817
Totally this.
I was to disheartened to write this, because anarcho-capitalists just cling to capitalism, and don't want to admit that. Cognitive dissonance. Unwillingness to understand. Delusion.

Now blockchain might make anarcho capitalism possible, blockchain/ distributed network taking the place of the State, but it will only be a transitional phase between capitalism and post capitalism.

>>13969845
minarchism is wanting the benefits of state without paying for it.
anarcho capitalism is wanting to be the state

>>13968541
>live anarcho capitalism
>be cheap and dumb
>homestead by creek
>shit in watersupply
>be responsible for cholera outbreak
>did I violate the NAP?

>>13970819
>did I violate the NAP?
No but your shit did. It's your shit that's acting unethically in this scenario, and possibly the bacteria on it

>>13970819
>live anarcho capitalism
>be killed

who doesn't want to pay for the service of a police/army/justice that makes the place possible to live decently? maybe one day you would be able to opt out, but I really wonder who wouldn't want this service

>>13970893
>opt out of paying for military
>still receive benefits because everyone else pays for it
>repeat until nobody is paying for it

>>13969436
>Glad OP has basically conceded that capitalism can't exist without the state though. Maybe we are having a breakthrough moment with this one

Indeed the State is an emanation of the capital.
These ancaps think they can just pick concepts, here and there, patch them together, and bend reality to their will. However, in the real world, it doesn't work like that.
Anarcho capitalism existed, but it was a previous version of capitalism. Medieval free cities, american old west. However, capitalism developed itself, making a state necessary in order be the glue of the wageslaving society. Capitalism always wants a bigger structure to supervise the production, in order to make the circulation of goods easier. That's why we are heading towards a world government, or perhaps 2 or 3 superblocks (like in Orwell's 1984), functioning on the same basis.

>>13969892
You just summarize very simply and clearly why anarcho-capitalism cannot work.
Now the anarcho-capitalism ITT don't change their minds, it's up to them to continue being slow.

>>13970930
>Anarcho capitalism existed, but it was a previous version of capitalism
nah, pre-modern capitalism was basically slave farms. modern capitalism is corporatism - the VOC was founded in 1602, 150 years before adam smith wrote his book on the wealth of nations.

>>13971051
I agree that even those examples anarcho capitalist mention, like medieval free cities, or american old west, are not really anarchists. I think medieval free cities were more like micro-States than anarchist societies. As for american old west, the State was far, and did have far less influence than today, but it was still there, in order to enforce property, collect taxes etc...

>>13971191
medieval free cities were actually a very early form of socialism. the cities came out of medieval communes where minor estate holders would band together against a major holder like a duke or emperor. it was in fact a form of collective bargaining more akin to a labour union - which eventually developed into trade leagues and guilds.
and yes the old west wasnt really anarchist. going west was in fact a government sponsored program!

Ancapism would probably end up being miniature monarchies. Fine by me if you compare

Like Hoppe put it, it would be a europe of a thousand Liechtensteins.

as i put it, a europe of a thousand tax havens

>>13971383
Capitalism tendency is to grow bigger, not smaller. Capitalism don't like constraints to the circulation of goods.

>>13970872
>be killed with diarrhea.

>>13971507
not by design. corporatism (the actual system) indeed is.

>>13968743
Says the faggot that trade internet meme coins.
Get out of grandma's basement mom says you need to groa up already niggerfag.

>>13971559
modern capitalism and corporatism are the same thing

>>13971559
There is no politics. Only the mode of production, which is capitalism, and what reinforce it: making more profit. If more profit is made through corporatism, of course capitalism is gonna follow the path of corporatism.

>>13971652
yes, the "modern definition of capitalism is bulhit and ancaps don't believe in it.

>>13971663
No, no surely there's no politics involved in the most problematic (read regulated) markets, like financy, education, health, welfare, but keep believing that neetsoc

>>13971663
you're a loser and you know it.